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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3989

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 08 2016 17:11 GMT
#79761
On June 08 2016 10:44 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2016 10:37 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 08 2016 10:32 Doodsmack wrote:
On June 08 2016 10:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 08 2016 10:26 Doodsmack wrote:
On June 08 2016 10:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 08 2016 10:03 kwizach wrote:
On June 08 2016 09:56 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 08 2016 09:38 kwizach wrote:
On June 08 2016 09:21 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
You have not represented facts. You have represented your interpretation of what you believe to be his positions and beliefs and views and character. They are all very absurd and difficult sells to make. You should honestly be ashamed for high-school-level gossip slander at this point.

You are outright lying at this point. All I did was report what Trump said. I didn't present you with my interpretation of his reasoning, I presented you with his own explanation of the reason why the judge was biased. Let's prove it to you factually, by looking at his interview with Jake Tapper:

+ Show Spoiler +




If you want a smoking gun quote you cannot possibly escape, go to 4:59 in the video, and listen to the following exchange (which comes after Trump complaining he's being treated unfairly):
4:59 - Jake Tapper: "But I don't care if you criticize him. That's fine. You can criticize every decision. What I'm saying is -- if you invoke his race as a reason why he can't do his job."
5:07 - Trump: "I think that's why he's doing it."
5:08 - Jake Tapper: "But... is that..."
5:09 - Trump: "I think that's why he's doing it."

Not my interpretation. Trump's words. You're wrong, end of story. Trump's reasoning is exactly as I presented it:

1. The judge is "Mexican"
2. Trump supports building a wall at the border with Mexico
3. Therefore, the judge is biased against him


I watched the entire video.

This reporter is such a shill how are you so oblivious to what he's playing at? He's trying so hard to play the politically correct bullshit card on Trump here.

Yes those are his words. Those are the rational explanation I explained before and I hadn't even watched the video.

He believes the judge has unfairly treated this case. The judge happens to be part of pro-mexican organizations and Mexico stands to inversely benefit from the success of Trump's candidacy.

Therefore, it follows that this judge stands to benefit should Trump's candidacy go poorly.

Therefore, the judge is not impartial. The judge has a stake in the case.

He argued that is why he is treating him unfairly in the case.

Thank you for linking the video now I know you're all throwing a fit over nothing.

Sorry, you can't get out of this one.

4:59 - Jake Tapper: "But I don't care if you criticize him. That's fine. You can criticize every decision. What I'm saying is -- if you invoke his race as a reason why he can't do his job."
5:07 - Trump: "I think that's why he's doing it."
5:08 - Jake Tapper: "But... is that..."
5:09 - Trump: "I think that's why he's doing it."

Trump's explanation is that the judge's "race", the fact that he is "Mexican", is why (Trump thinks) he is bias against him. End of story.


You're ignoring the relevance of what it means.

Before that quote even he stated how the judge is a part of pro-mexican groups.
The judge has a stake in the outcome of the case. The judge even has a stake in the case remaining open.
This is because of the judge's identity and values.

It's not fucking racist to point out a fact jesus christ PC has gone too far.


lol @ you clinging to the claim Trump's reasoning depends on the judge's group involvement. Why are you averse to admit that's not the case?


I don't get what is so hard about stepping inside someone's shoes to try to see it from their perspective before you condemn them one of the worst labels you can be attributed with in western society


That wasn't responsive to what I said. You Trump apologists are so averse to admitting that his stated reasoning does not depend on the involvement by the judge in various groups. It is just,

1. He's "a Mexican"
2. Trump's building a wall
3. Therefore, he's biased


I'm not a Trump apologist I firmly disagree with his stance on abortion and there's no way around it I'm pro-choice and I think he's wrong on that issue.

You fanatic nevertrumper's are just impossible to talk to you've made up your mind and won't see it any other way.

You refuse to put yourselves in this man's shoes as if he's just a normal person and try to see it from his perspective because you want to believe in the narrative you've been babyfed and questioning it would be too straining of you. I understand some people just don't' do cognitive dissonance well.



The "lol your psychology" argument is especially rich. I'm just glad you are apparently not a US citizen and won't be able to vote for Trump.

It's interesting that the most prominent Trump apologists in this thread do not appear to be from the US. It seems to me a lot of people who will be voting for Trump in the US don't want to say it out loud...even via their online usernames (and it's not just this site).


Jokes on you - I am, and I will be voting for Trump in the most important swing-state in the election.

And that would be because we have been violently attacked by nutjobs at rallies and slandered as 'racist/bigot/sexist' by the MSM.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 08 2016 17:12 GMT
#79762
germany is a swing state?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
June 08 2016 17:17 GMT
#79763
On June 09 2016 02:12 oneofthem wrote:
germany is a swing state?

Yeah, and we're gonna build them a wall and make Syria pay for it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-08 17:18:29
June 08 2016 17:18 GMT
#79764
Please not another wall
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-08 17:26:09
June 08 2016 17:20 GMT
#79765
Jokes aside, Hungary's wall worked wonders for illegal immigration.

If you want to pay over a hundred billion dollars in taxes on welfare for illegal immigrants every year, go for it.

I think every scholar in the world would be laughing their ass off 50 years ago if you told them that Russia would end up more conservative than the United States.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
June 08 2016 17:29 GMT
#79766
Russia has always had a conservative streak in it, by Western definitions of conservative and liberal. It's to the left of the US on a lot of things and to the right on others. No surprise there, really, given that it's a different country with a different set of situations.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 08 2016 17:31 GMT
#79767
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/

We are not, problem solved.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-08 17:57:38
June 08 2016 17:51 GMT
#79768
On June 09 2016 02:31 Plansix wrote:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/

We are not, problem solved.


It's 25 billion from the state of California alone.

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-california-taxpayers

How is it 10 billion nationally when California is paying 25 billion by itself?


Immigration, drugs, and traffic violations accounted for about 50 percent of
arrest offenses. About 90 percent of the criminal aliens sentenced in federal
court in fiscal year 2009 (the most recently available data) were convicted of
immigration and drug-related offenses. About 40 percent of individuals
convicted as a result of DOJ terrorism-related investigations were aliens.


http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf

According DHS status indicators, over 184,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and February 29, 2016. During their criminal careers, these criminal aliens were charged with more than 485,000 criminal offenses. Those arrests include 985 homicide charges; 58,413 assault charges; 14,686 burglary charges; 57,942 drug charges; 599 kidnapping charges; 35,863 theft charges; 38,925 obstructing police charges; 3,274 robbery charges; 5,152 sexual assault charges; and 7,386 weapons charges. Of the total criminal aliens arrested in that timeframe, over 122,000 or 66% were identified by DHS status as being in the US illegally at the time of their last arrest.
According to DPS criminal history records, those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 220,000 convictions including 407 homicide convictions; 21,713 assault convictions; 7,109 burglary convictions; 28,810 drug convictions; 202 kidnapping convictions; 16,104 theft convictions; 19,205 obstructing police convictions; 1,653 robbery convictions; 2,316 sexual assault convictions; and 3,093 weapons convictions. Of the convictions associated with criminal alien arrests, over 147,000 or 66% are associated with aliens who were identified by DHS status as being in the US illegally at the time of their last arrest.


https://archive.is/o/FLJ8e/https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm



https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/15/121-murders-attributed-illegal-immigrants-released/

When you have a problem you can acknowledge it's a problem or ignore it. The wall is a solution to this problem. Legalizing them all is an idiot's solution to the problem.
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
June 08 2016 18:34 GMT
#79769
On June 09 2016 02:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Please not another wall

they're quite effective apparently

what's Hillary's plan on securing the border?
© Current year.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-08 18:39:06
June 08 2016 18:34 GMT
#79770
The report for California alone lumps the majority the cost in education of "children of illegal immigrants" and then include America citizens because their parents are either illegal or became illegal immigrants during the student's life time. And they come to the number by taking the number of estimate students and just multiplying it by the estimated cost. Not the amount spent. The stats for policing are estimated, but they provide no information about their methodology, which is most of the rest of the report as well.

Finally, Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is yet aother one of John Tanton's babies. It, like many of his non-profits, have accepted money from groups that promote eugenics, or selective breeding.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/john-tanton’s-private-papers-expose-more-20-years-hate

And the Southern Poverty law center labeled it a hate group.

So I find your evidence not very compelling for California. And I don't read the Washington Times. That other government report seems legit, though they seem to be counting all incarcerated illegals that exist, rather than ones entering the system.

On June 09 2016 03:34 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 02:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Please not another wall

they're quite effective apparently

what's Hillary's plan on securing the border?

Reform immigration. Pathway to citizenship. Close privately run detention centers, end family detention. Deport criminals. Standard stuff.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
June 08 2016 18:41 GMT
#79771
On June 09 2016 02:02 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 01:39 IgnE wrote:
On June 09 2016 00:35 oneofthem wrote:
the legal structure of a corporation is as you describe. but people have different hats. google's executives may also see themselves as influencing events and affecting history in some way. google's information infrastructure can be useful and they may choose to cooperate with the government in a variety of ways. it is not necessarily nefarious stuff.

youtube and picasa provide communication and digital presence for dissidents, seems fine right? no no, the russian spin is that google is encouraging civil war in syria.


google's "dont be evil" might end up looking like stalinist era soviet self-parody in a decade

yea they should instead be trying to overthrow the world order because there is no justice outside of communism


yeah i guess promoting democracy and privacy is trying to overthrow the liberal globalized world order. you have a point.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
June 08 2016 18:42 GMT
#79772
On June 09 2016 02:12 oneofthem wrote:
germany is a swing state?


his grandparents were from germany and he identifies as nazi but he lives in florida
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
June 08 2016 18:43 GMT
#79773
In find it mystifying that people actually want to reward illegal aliens for spending years pissing on our country's immigration laws by giving them all citizenship. Apparently they enjoy depressed wages, American children losing out on school resources and time with teachers from kindergarten all the way through university, paying for criminal proceedings and incarceration for people who shouldn't even be here, and paying to house and feed people who are apparently so fucking special that they can just choose which laws they're subject to.

But hey, fuck laws, borders, and the entire concept of nations because muh feelings.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-08 18:44:37
June 08 2016 18:44 GMT
#79774
On June 09 2016 03:34 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 02:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Please not another wall

they're quite effective apparently

what's Hillary's plan on securing the border?


You can't actually secure any borders. It's like "war on terror", it doesn't actually mean anything. It's a giant dick waving theatre. We can move goods, capital and information around, you'll think we'll stop at people?
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9193 Posts
June 08 2016 18:46 GMT
#79775
On June 09 2016 03:34 Plansix wrote:
The report for California alone lumps the majority the cost in education of "children of illegal immigrants" and then include America citizens because their parents are either illegal or became illegal immigrants during the student's life time. And they come to the number by taking the number of estimate students and just multiplying it by the estimated cost. Not the amount spent. The stats for policing are estimated, but they provide no information about their methodology, which is most of the rest of the report as well.

Finally, Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is yet aother one of John Tanton's babies. It, like many of his non-profits, have accepted money from groups that promote eugenics, or selective breeding.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/john-tanton’s-private-papers-expose-more-20-years-hate

And the Southern Poverty law center labeled it a hate group.

So I find your evidence not very compelling for California. And I don't read the Washington Times. That other government report seems legit, though they seem to be counting all incarcerated illegals that exist, rather than ones entering the system.

Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 03:34 CorsairHero wrote:
On June 09 2016 02:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Please not another wall

they're quite effective apparently

what's Hillary's plan on securing the border?

Reform immigration. Pathway to citizenship. Close privately run detention centers, end family detention. Deport criminals. Standard stuff.


Why do you expect her to reform immigration laws? She's from the same team as Obama, if they wanted to reform those laws they would do it, no? I guess you can say that they couldn't because republican Congress didn't allow them but then you can't say she's going to reform immigration because that's not in her power.
You're now breathing manually
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
June 08 2016 18:47 GMT
#79776
If anyone is interested

http://www.c-span.org/video/?410788-1/democratic-platform-drafting-committee-holds-first-hearing&vod
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 08 2016 18:47 GMT
#79777
On June 09 2016 03:41 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 02:02 oneofthem wrote:
On June 09 2016 01:39 IgnE wrote:
On June 09 2016 00:35 oneofthem wrote:
the legal structure of a corporation is as you describe. but people have different hats. google's executives may also see themselves as influencing events and affecting history in some way. google's information infrastructure can be useful and they may choose to cooperate with the government in a variety of ways. it is not necessarily nefarious stuff.

youtube and picasa provide communication and digital presence for dissidents, seems fine right? no no, the russian spin is that google is encouraging civil war in syria.


google's "dont be evil" might end up looking like stalinist era soviet self-parody in a decade

yea they should instead be trying to overthrow the world order because there is no justice outside of communism


yeah i guess promoting democracy and privacy is trying to overthrow the liberal globalized world order. you have a point.

law enforcement data collection is more terrible than actual threats to democracy and privacy by actual authoritarian states. this is some kind of privacy snobbery on par with the gmo thing.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
June 08 2016 18:48 GMT
#79778
Rewarding illegal activity is ridiculous. "You can't secure borders". What an attempt at a defeatist attitude to have. No country has to take a single person from any other country if they do not want to.

You can definitely take strong measures to secure borders, and even stronger enforcement or outright punishment so that people know that they will come to your country legally, or not at all.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 08 2016 18:51 GMT
#79779
On June 09 2016 03:44 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2016 03:34 CorsairHero wrote:
On June 09 2016 02:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Please not another wall

they're quite effective apparently

what's Hillary's plan on securing the border?


You can't actually secure any borders. It's like "war on terror", it doesn't actually mean anything. It's a giant dick waving theatre. We can move goods, capital and information around, you'll think we'll stop at people?


This is just blatantly wrong.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 08 2016 18:52 GMT
#79780
Too much text for me to reply to last night's conversations, whatever happened to them, coudln't even find them cuz there's so many posts.

Some moderate border security is fine; not sure what the most cost-effective plan is. A big ? for me is how much it's worth it to reduce the illegal population by 1 for one year. (i.e. whatever system changes you make, there's going to be some steady state trends; so tighter security might reduce the overall illegal population towards a certain value, and figuring out how much its worth, including the ethical value of enforcing laws, is useful to assessing how worthwhile various security measures are)
I figure somewhere from $2000 to $8000 seem plausible numbers; higher than that and it just seems like it'd not be worthwhile, though I'd of course listen to arguments.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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