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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-27 20:04:57
December 27 2015 20:04 GMT
#53961
On December 28 2015 01:59 oneofthem wrote:
i have come to the conclusion that bernie fanboys are not really trying to solve any problems.


is that because you think bernie is not really trying to solve any problems?

most fanboys of any stripes are not really trying to "solve any problems."
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
December 27 2015 21:58 GMT
#53962
fite me oneofthem.
Writer
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 27 2015 22:50 GMT
#53963
On December 28 2015 01:37 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2015 00:03 zf wrote:
On December 27 2015 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

. . .

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).


And I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that black voters think that it's "Sanders or no one." Clinton leads Sanders among black voters by more than 50 points. (I've seen polls as lopsided as 80+% Clinton, 10+% Sanders.)


GH has said he'll vote for Trump if Clinton doesn't win because he wants the country to collapse sooner than later out of resentment for Sanders losing. I'm not sure I'd put much into his characterization of the black vote.


Talk to black people about it, then get back to me. I'll tell you now, Hillary's Abuela pander and then her Kwanza pander is going to drive those numbers down further.

I was being somewhat facetious when I said I'd vote for Trump. Figured I'd take a swing at the typical fear-mongering that is used to cudgel voters into voting for the lesser of two evils instead of the candidate that would actually represent them.

Unfortunately for Sanders, his stark calls for justice don't get near the airtime his early incidents with BLM did so he's had to work out of that hole with no help from the media.

Hopefully the tens of thousands of calls being made into Iowa is enough to put Bernie on top and get him 2 early wins. Mysteriously, Nevada hasn't been polled in months despite being the 3rd state they will compete in. Yet SC is getting consistently polled while being the 4th state they compete in.

Winning the first 2 or 3 states could be enough to break Clinton in SC when combined with her piss poor (by comparison) outreach to black communities since she's been running.

If Sanders does lose, the country will get worse, it then becomes a contest between who makes it more bad than the other one and I won't be scared into voting for Hillary just because the alternative is worse. That's what black folks have been doing for decades and we're still having our civil and constitutional rights trampled on daily. What many politically conscious (particularly younger voters) have been saying is that they won't be scared into voting for Hillary either.

It can be summed up in the #Earnthisdamnvoteorlose.

And apparently Hillary screwed up again with Rosa Parks being added to her logo. Before the nomination process started I figured Hillary was going to win without contest, but watching her run this time has reminded me how slimy she is as a politician and has generally made me disgusted with her.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-28 00:03:43
December 28 2015 00:02 GMT
#53964
The Republican Party is divided over whether to attack the science of climate change when opposing liberal policies.

Many of the most vocal Republicans say they have significant problems with the scientific consensus that the Earth is warming and that greenhouse gas emissions from human activity is the main cause. The skeptics include presidential hopefuls Ben Carson and Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) and Capitol Hill chairmen Sen. Jim Inhofe (Okla.) and Rep. Lamar Smith (Texas).

But others in the GOP aren’t interested in litigating the science. They say it’s more important — and far easier — to show that Democratic climate proposals would be disastrous to the economy and kill jobs.
The split comes as more and more voters, particularly young people and minorities, say in opinion polls that they believe climate change is real and want action to fight it.

Democrats have lined up firmly behind that view, with President Obama set to implement carbon dioxide limits for power plants that amount to the most significant action yet by the federal government to fight climate change.

Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) said that since science underpins climate change policies, it’s important to examine it in detail.

“We know that there’s an ideological obsession to advance on this global warming agenda,” said Sessions.

“Good policy should reflect the best science that we have. But a lot of the predictions that were confidently made have not occurred,” he said, pointing to predictions of temperature increases and storm activity that he said did not pan out.

Inhofe, chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, brought national attention to his crusade against climate science when he threw a snowball on the Senate floor during on a cold February day to mock alarmist climate conclusions.

“Do you know what this is?” he asked Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), who was presiding over the Senate’s debate, as he removed the snowball from a plastic bag.

“It’s a snowball. And it’s just from outside here. So it’s very, very cold out. Very unseasonable.”

Comedians, Obama, greens, Democrats and others still bring up Inhofe’s “snowball moment” to mock the Republican Party’s “denial” of climate change.

Many of the party’s presidential hopefuls have aligned with climate skeptics, including Cruz, Carson and real estate mogul Donald Trump.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 28 2015 01:31 GMT
#53965
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
December 28 2015 04:50 GMT
#53966
On December 28 2015 07:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2015 01:37 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 28 2015 00:03 zf wrote:
On December 27 2015 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

. . .

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).


And I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that black voters think that it's "Sanders or no one." Clinton leads Sanders among black voters by more than 50 points. (I've seen polls as lopsided as 80+% Clinton, 10+% Sanders.)


GH has said he'll vote for Trump if Clinton doesn't win because he wants the country to collapse sooner than later out of resentment for Sanders losing. I'm not sure I'd put much into his characterization of the black vote.


Talk to black people about it, then get back to me. I'll tell you now, Hillary's Abuela pander and then her Kwanza pander is going to drive those numbers down further.


We have polls for that. If you are saying people you talk to tend to support the things you're saying, that's not exactly surprising.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 28 2015 05:18 GMT
#53967
On December 28 2015 13:50 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2015 07:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 28 2015 01:37 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 28 2015 00:03 zf wrote:
On December 27 2015 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

. . .

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).


And I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that black voters think that it's "Sanders or no one." Clinton leads Sanders among black voters by more than 50 points. (I've seen polls as lopsided as 80+% Clinton, 10+% Sanders.)


GH has said he'll vote for Trump if Clinton doesn't win because he wants the country to collapse sooner than later out of resentment for Sanders losing. I'm not sure I'd put much into his characterization of the black vote.


Talk to black people about it, then get back to me. I'll tell you now, Hillary's Abuela pander and then her Kwanza pander is going to drive those numbers down further.


We have polls for that. If you are saying people you talk to tend to support the things you're saying, that's not exactly surprising.


Have you not seen the reaction?

This is one of my personal favorites:

[image loading]

Most black people I actually talk to (in person) aren't really following the election. They are just presuming Clinton will win because of what they hear when they occasionally watch a news program.

I'm talking about the online circles where black folks talk about politics and such. Clinton's refusal to own her role in the prison industrial complex is a big problem that the news never talks about. No plan for correcting the rampant problems in our criminal justice system, and doesn't want to legalize cannabis.

The only thing keeping Clinton afloat in the black community is a lingering appreciation of her husband (and the name association) and as the facts are being digested, it wanes by the day.

The fact that she's counting on minorities to save her means she's in more trouble than any of the analysts suggest.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
December 28 2015 07:35 GMT
#53968
I think it's easy to see a really common online position and assume it represents a larger portion than it really does. I see all sorts of silly BLM memes and stuff posted, but in the end, it's about the whole population, not angry youth. If you browsed the politics subreddit, you'd think Sanders was a sure victory, yet every poll shows him to be a distraction at best.

In the end, i think you really overestimate the political power of angry youth. Young black people have been mad for a long time and it never amounts to anything. A bunch of memes on facebook about black people getting beat up by police doesn't translate to a political movement and it doesn't allow Sanders to win. The 35-50 age group still needs to be on board and that's not what we're seeing. I wish it weren't the case. I think it's easy to see overwhelming support among the internet, but remember Ron Paul? Pretty similar situation. Sanders is doing a lot better than Paul, but in the end, it's mainly just internet hype, not actual electable numbers.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 28 2015 08:10 GMT
#53969
On December 28 2015 16:35 Mohdoo wrote:
I think it's easy to see a really common online position and assume it represents a larger portion than it really does. I see all sorts of silly BLM memes and stuff posted, but in the end, it's about the whole population, not angry youth. If you browsed the politics subreddit, you'd think Sanders was a sure victory, yet every poll shows him to be a distraction at best.

In the end, i think you really overestimate the political power of angry youth. Young black people have been mad for a long time and it never amounts to anything. A bunch of memes on facebook about black people getting beat up by police doesn't translate to a political movement and it doesn't allow Sanders to win. The 35-50 age group still needs to be on board and that's not what we're seeing. I wish it weren't the case. I think it's easy to see overwhelming support among the internet, but remember Ron Paul? Pretty similar situation. Sanders is doing a lot better than Paul, but in the end, it's mainly just internet hype, not actual electable numbers.


Normally I would agree, but with the presumption of Clinton's inevitability, an energized youth turnout will have a disproportionate impact compared to a more contentious run.

Ron Paul certainly never saw the numbers Sanders has been seeing online, at rallies, or in the polls. That comparison may have had merit in the beginning but Sanders has long surpassed anything Ron Paul was able to do.

Just over a month from Iowa and we'll see how well the polls have been gauging results on both sides.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
RenSC2
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1079 Posts
December 28 2015 09:14 GMT
#53970
Iowa will pretty clearly go to Clinton. The interesting one will be New Hampshire. Right now Sanders has a small lead over her. If he can hold that lead and get the vote there, then things get interesting.

On the national level, up to this point Sanders has been a non-story. He's the old politician who's polling 20 points behind Clinton and doesn't have a legit shot despite being the #2 contender. However, if he can get that one win in New Hampshire, it suddenly makes him legit.

Unless the media is even worse than I think, Sanders winning New Hampshire becomes a big story. All the networks will start running the "Who is this guy?", "coming out of nowhere" underdog stories. Suddenly Sanders gets publicity and recognition. If he can leverage that coverage into momentum, he could possibly carry it to a national victory.

Or he could act "crazy" while getting that coverage and Howard Dean (verb) himself right out of the race. Or the media could really be worse than I think and continue to treat Sanders as a non-story and never give him coverage even after a win... then I'll start believing conspiracy theories. Until then, I'll continue to think that the media is interested in money and pushing whatever story they think will get them eyeballs.

If he doesn't win New Hampshire, then that closes the door on his best opportunity to really make this a race. Him losing Iowa is a non-story and not worth getting upset about, but losing New Hampshire should probably be the end of the Sanders campaign.
Playing better than standard requires deviation. This divergence usually results in sub-standard play.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 28 2015 11:10 GMT
#53971
Some relevant polling about non-white voters.

[image loading]

[image loading]

Source

And that's with the under 65 crowd being too small to report.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-28 16:50:53
December 28 2015 16:50 GMT
#53972
ObamaCare is entering the pivotal year of 2016 on a stronger footing, with healthcare officials touting stronger-than-expected demand so far in this year’s sign-up season.

Over the past year, the Obama administration has driven the uninsured rate to record lows and beat back its last major Supreme Court challenge, helping to soften the often-sharp politics of the healthcare law ahead of a presidential election year.

Signups in recent weeks have beaten last year’s totals while also bringing in a larger share of key populations like young people under age 35, signaling good news for health insurers.

“The marketplace is strong and growing,” Marketplace CEO Kevin Counihan said Tuesday after releasing extensive data on this year’s signups.

Still, major obstacles are ahead, namely a presidential contest that could result in a dismantling of the law if a Republican wins the White House.

ObamaCare also remains a political loser, with 40 percent of voters approving and 52 percent disapproving of the law, according to a New York Times/CBS poll released this month.

The next administration will also have to quell uncertainties about the still-fledging healthcare marketplace while tackling rising prescription drug costs and trying to spread the word about the law to increasingly harder-to-reach populations.

“It’s been a great success, a greater success than a lot of people expected,” said Anne Filipic, president of Enroll America and a former Obama administration health adviser.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 28 2015 18:16 GMT
#53973
On December 28 2015 18:14 RenSC2 wrote:
Iowa will pretty clearly go to Clinton. The interesting one will be New Hampshire. Right now Sanders has a small lead over her. If he can hold that lead and get the vote there, then things get interesting.

On the national level, up to this point Sanders has been a non-story. He's the old politician who's polling 20 points behind Clinton and doesn't have a legit shot despite being the #2 contender. However, if he can get that one win in New Hampshire, it suddenly makes him legit.

Unless the media is even worse than I think, Sanders winning New Hampshire becomes a big story. All the networks will start running the "Who is this guy?", "coming out of nowhere" underdog stories. Suddenly Sanders gets publicity and recognition. If he can leverage that coverage into momentum, he could possibly carry it to a national victory.

Or he could act "crazy" while getting that coverage and Howard Dean (verb) himself right out of the race. Or the media could really be worse than I think and continue to treat Sanders as a non-story and never give him coverage even after a win... then I'll start believing conspiracy theories. Until then, I'll continue to think that the media is interested in money and pushing whatever story they think will get them eyeballs.

If he doesn't win New Hampshire, then that closes the door on his best opportunity to really make this a race. Him losing Iowa is a non-story and not worth getting upset about, but losing New Hampshire should probably be the end of the Sanders campaign.

If that is what you think of the media. They are, indeed, much worse than you think. The Sunday shows are, essentially, a Hillary PAC. Even as someone who isn't particularly fond of Hillary or Bernie you see it right after the last debate. On one issue, gun control, Bernie's "practical" approach (aka not snatching hunting rifles and shotguns out of the homes of every rural American) is treated as disqualifying, on a second, taxation, Hillary's moderation is treated as brilliant triangulation looking ahead to the general.
Freeeeeeedom
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-28 18:43:17
December 28 2015 18:38 GMT
#53974
Early national primary polls mean nothing with a capital N, O, T, H, I, N, and G. They're not terribly predictive of the winner in relatively contested elections (I don't think Obama, McCain, Kerry, or Romney were in the lead nationally at this point). There's a reason a lot of the premiere survey organizations don't do they and instead stick to state-by-state primary polls.

Sanders is pretty locked in in NH, I'm pretty sure; the political environment of that state is really good for him, and I'm not sure Clinton has had a lead exceeding the poll's margin of error in the state. Iowa will take a small miracle for him to win at this point, though, as I don't think it's really his kind of state and Clinton's lead is consistently huge there, and without a win there I don't see him duplicating Obama's success. I hope for his sake he does though.

If Biden had entered the race I could see Sanders winning Iowa. Without a third party chopping off Clinton's legs like Edwards did in '08, I don't think he can manage it. It also doesn't help that he's almost certainly going to get slaughtered on Super Tuesday just because of the states that are voting (maybe winning MA, VT, CO if he's lucky unless there's a seismic shift in the race).
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 28 2015 18:45 GMT
#53975
Donald Trump, billionaire Republican presidential frontrunner, has changed his mind about wages: Americans aren’t earning enough. He’s also not keen on Wall Street. The shift has Trump on a collision course with Democrat Bernie Sanders – while oddly agreeing with many of his points.

“Wages in are [sic] country are too low, good jobs are too few, and people have lost faith in our leaders. We need smart and strong leadership now!” Trump tweeted on Monday.

The opinion appeared to reverse what the Republican frontrunner said in November during the fourth Republican debate. Asked if he was sympathetic to the protesters demanding a $15-an-hour minimum wage, Trump said: “I can’t be.”

“[T]axes too high, wages too high, we’re not going to be able to compete against the world. I hate to say it, but we have to leave [the minimum wage] the way it is,” Trump said at the time. “People have to go out, they have to work really hard and have to get into that upper stratum. But we cannot do this if we are going to compete with the rest of the world. We just can’t do it.”

Sanders, a senator from Vermont and self-described socialist, used those comments to criticize Trump while appearing on CBS Face the Nation on Sunday.

“This is a guy who does not want to raise minimum wage,” he said of Trump. “In fact, he has said that wages in America are too high.”

Trump lashed back at Sanders, tweeting: “[Bernie Sanders]–who blew his campaign when he gave Hillary a pass on her e-mail crime, said that I feel wages in America are too high. Lie!”

In the days after the fourth Republican debate, Trump attempted to clarify that he was not speaking of wages in general, just about the US federal minimum wage which has remained at $7.25 since July 2009.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 28 2015 20:18 GMT
#53976
Absolutely disgusting...

After more than a year of investigation, a Cleveland grand jury declined to bring charges against either of the two police officers involved in the November 2014 shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy who was playing with a toy weapon in a park.

Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty announced the decision Monday afternoon, adding that he did not recommend that grand jury bringing charges


Source

What kind of prosecutor goes to a grand jury to defend the accused...? I know! A corrupt one!
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JumboJohnson
Profile Joined December 2011
537 Posts
December 28 2015 20:30 GMT
#53977
On December 29 2015 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Absolutely disgusting...

Show nested quote +
After more than a year of investigation, a Cleveland grand jury declined to bring charges against either of the two police officers involved in the November 2014 shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy who was playing with a toy weapon in a park.

Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty announced the decision Monday afternoon, adding that he did not recommend that grand jury bringing charges


Source

What kind of prosecutor goes to a grand jury to defend the accused...? I know! A corrupt one!


Is anyone really surprised?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 28 2015 20:39 GMT
#53978
On December 29 2015 05:30 JumboJohnson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2015 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Absolutely disgusting...

After more than a year of investigation, a Cleveland grand jury declined to bring charges against either of the two police officers involved in the November 2014 shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy who was playing with a toy weapon in a park.

Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty announced the decision Monday afternoon, adding that he did not recommend that grand jury bringing charges


Source

What kind of prosecutor goes to a grand jury to defend the accused...? I know! A corrupt one!


Is anyone really surprised?


Surprised that anyone ever believed the "it's just a few bad apples" argument, or that some people never fail to scramble to justify murder when it's a cop who commits it, or that people pretend this isn't an extremely serious issue that a large portion of white America refuses to remedy.

Surprised that people think they can continue to ignore systemic and widespread violations of citizens rights without consequence.

But mostly just disgusted with society.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
December 28 2015 23:03 GMT
#53979
This is what Tamir Rice's toy gun looked like. Is there reasonable evidence that the cops felt their lives were in danger? Reminder, Tamir Rice is 5' 7" and 195 lbs at the time of the shooting holding what looks like a real gun in broad daylight. Whether he should have been shot or not is different from whether this was an injustice.

[image loading]
rip passion
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-28 23:15:29
December 28 2015 23:15 GMT
#53980
On December 29 2015 08:03 Deathstar wrote:
This is what Tamir Rice's toy gun looked like. Is there reasonable evidence that the cops felt their lives were in danger? Reminder, Tamir Rice is 5' 7" and 195 lbs at the time of the shooting holding what looks like a real gun in broad daylight. Whether he should have been shot or not is different from whether this was an injustice.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


He shouldn't have been shot and it is an injustice. Even the person who called it in thought it wasn't real. The shooting was bs and so was the "investigation" and "prosecution".
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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