EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2700
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Pressure mounted on Chicago’s Mayor Rahm Emanuel to resign on Monday after police shot and killed two black citizens at the weekend, putting further scrutiny on the nation’s third-largest police department which is already under federal investigation over its use of deadly force. In an interview on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, civil rights activist Al Sharpton said Emanuel should step down, adding that he wondered why Emanuel had stayed in Cuba, where he is on a family vacation. “I’ve never seen this kind of detachment in the years that I’ve been fighting, whether I got along with the mayor or not,” Sharpton said. Chicago police said they were not releasing additional information about the shooting. A spokeswoman said the department could not comment beyond a statement issued on Sunday because the shooting was under investigation. Police acknowledged in that statement that 55-year-old Bettie Jones was accidentally hit by gunfire as officers responded to a report of a domestic disturbance early on Saturday. They said 19-year-old Quintonio LeGrier was “combative” toward officers before he was shot. Emanuel issued a statement on Sunday calling for a review of the police Crisis Intervention Team and better guidance for officers when dealing with mental health cases. “There are serious questions about yesterday’s shootings that must be answered in full by the Independent Police Review Authority’s investigation,” the statement said. The mayor’s office did not reply to requests for further comment or his plans on Monday. He has no events scheduled in Chicago over the next few days. Source | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24507 Posts
On December 29 2015 08:17 Deathstar wrote: Yeah we should have had a trial, but I guess the fed will get involved with this now Of course it should of went to trial, but we have a systemic problem that people don't want to admit and deal with. Namely a corrupt and systemically racist justice system. It's absolutely absurd what happened here and it is an embarrassment and tragic. The feds bar is ridiculously high and will yield jack. There will be an investigation into the department at large and they will find systemic violations of people's civil and constitutional rights, someone will resign with full benefits (maybe a bonus) and then they tell us they are fixing it and years later we find out the same exact crap is still happening and no one will go to prison (except increasingly more civilians). We don't get to pretend we don't know how this goes anymore. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 29 2015 08:15 GreenHorizons wrote: He shouldn't have been shot and it is an injustice. Even the person who called it in thought it wasn't real. The shooting was bs and so was the "investigation" and "prosecution". So what should the verdict here have been? | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On December 29 2015 08:32 killa_robot wrote: So what should the verdict here have been? the outcome wasn't a verdict. it was whether it should go to trial. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22703 Posts
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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Cowboy64
115 Posts
On December 29 2015 08:15 GreenHorizons wrote: He shouldn't have been shot and it is an injustice. Even the person who called it in thought it wasn't real. The shooting was bs and so was the "investigation" and "prosecution". Not to take sides on this, but that particular information was never relayed to the responding officers. They were responding to an "active shooter" call. It really does seem like a tragic mistake. Not gonna go into the debate about the role of the police or the broader implications or whatever, just think we should keep our facts straight. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On December 29 2015 09:35 Gorsameth wrote: On a related note. Are such lifelike toys actually legal in the US? because over here it is illegal to own/sell a toy gun that cannot be easily distinguished from a real one because of police reactions ect. it varies by jurisdiction. Some states/cities have laws that the toy guns have to be easily distinguishable (either brightly colored in general, or with a large orange safety tip put in the end of the muzzle area. Sadly not all have put in such laws yet, or these things would happen a lot less. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On December 29 2015 10:26 Cowboy64 wrote: Not to take sides on this, but that particular information was never relayed to the responding officers. They were responding to an "active shooter" call. It really does seem like a tragic mistake. Not gonna go into the debate about the role of the police or the broader implications or whatever, just think we should keep our facts straight. I think regardless of what they were responding to didn't they literally just roll up draw and shoot within a ridiculous short length of time? Been a while since I saw the video but it definitely seemed like something was definitely wrong with what was shown. | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
Now one thing I heard in this case is that the standard procedure for the cops in this department is never to drive up their police cruiser right next to a person who might have a gun. They are supposed to park farther away before confronting the person. There have been several cops killed because a shooter was able to get right up to the side window of their car. So, when they drove up right next to him, this was a violation of the department's procedure. I think this is a good reason for this case to go to trial; because if the cops had done what they were supposed to, the situation may have been avoided. | ||
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Cowboy64
115 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10989 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4927 Posts
I get that pharmaceutical companies have high research costs. But if there are 3 million potential customers in the US alone (and more than 100 million infected in the world) it should be possible to lower the cost for the drug and still make a nice profit. edit: According to this article "private investors spent perhaps $300 million in R&D outlays". Parts of the research were apparently funded by the US government. If true, this is a joke reflecting badly on the US health system. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8224 Posts
On December 29 2015 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote: Absolutely disgusting... Source What kind of prosecutor goes to a grand jury to defend the accused...? I know! A corrupt one! The really interesting question to ask yourself is what would have happened if black policemen had shot a white kid. I think Krugman has a point when he says that almost everything in American politics, starting with the national abismal disdain for poor people, to the ridiculously harsh justice system or the puzzling paradox of seeing poor white rural people voting for a Republican party that does exactly the opposite of their most basic interest, has to be understood from a racial point of view: And it’s not just health reform: a history of slavery is a strong predictor of everything from gun control (or rather its absence), to low minimum wages and hostility to unions, to tax policy. source (reaaally worth reading): http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/opinion/paul-krugman-slaverys-long-shadow.html This bit is particularly interesting imo: The second paper, by the economists Alberto Alesina, Edward Glaeser, and Bruce Sacerdote, was titled “Why Doesn’t the United States Have a European-style Welfare State?” Its authors — who are not, by the way, especially liberal — explored a number of hypotheses, but eventually concluded that race is central, because in America programs that help the needy are all too often seen as programs that help Those People: “Within the United States, race is the single most important predictor of support for welfare. America’s troubled race relations are clearly a major reason for the absence of an American welfare state.” | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On December 29 2015 11:58 TheFish7 wrote: In the Tamir Rice case, the cops just roll up on this kid and gun him down immediately. He had been shooting some pellet gun or whatever so the cops were expecting to run into someone armed. It then looks like the kid goes for his waistband and the cops shit their pants and blow him away. Total overreaction by the cops - they never took a second to assess the situation. They just made the assumption this kid was about to start shooting at them and their reaction, unfortunately for Tamir, was to kill him. Now one thing I heard in this case is that the standard procedure for the cops in this department is never to drive up their police cruiser right next to a person who might have a gun. They are supposed to park farther away before confronting the person. There have been several cops killed because a shooter was able to get right up to the side window of their car. So, when they drove up right next to him, this was a violation of the department's procedure. I think this is a good reason for this case to go to trial; because if the cops had done what they were supposed to, the situation may have been avoided. That whole situation is ridiculous. Cops shoot a twelve year old with a toy gun because they are so absurdly paranoid and under the impression that everyone just itches to shoot at cops at any chance they get. They still violate their own procedures doing so. And for inexplicable reason, noone even goes to trial for this. I can't figure out how that can happen. If a cop shoots a civilian, there should simply always be a trial. If he has a good reason for doing so, he should be able to prove it. In my opinion, if you shoot someone, the burden of proof is on you to show that it is justified, not on someone else (who apparently really doesn't care, since stuff like this appears to barely ever get prosecuted) to prove that it was not. As far as i know, it works like this for everyone else, i don't see why it should work differently for cops. If cops shoot a twelve year old, someone has fucked up majorly. Either it was the cops themselves, the person who gave them incorrect information, or the person who made the procedures that lead to this situation. I am very confused by the fact that apparently none of these people did anything worth at least trying to prosecute. I am pretty sure that if this had happened in Germany, someone would go to trial for it. The police in the US is broken in some major ways, and there seems to be little political will to fix this. -Make them justify their actions every single time they shoot a bullet. Gun usage should always be the last resort, not the first. -If someone gets injured in an encounter with the police, have an independent investigation (Meaning NOT done by people who have ANYTHING to do with the department at hand). Every single time. -Actually train your police in deescalation techniques. The job of the police is not to measure your dick against other peoples in petty struggles, it is to reduce the amount of crime happening and to protect the population. Going full on confrontation mode all the time does not help with this. -Don't ever have the money collected from fines go anywhere near the people responsible for fining people. -Actually have statistics on how many people the police hurts, kills, how many bullets they use, all sorts of things like that. All of these should be blatantly obvious things to do. You could also take a look at countries that have a police that does not kill their citizens at an alarming rate, and what they do differently. Possibly have some of your cops or cop trainers train in those countries, i am sure it would be easy to set up some sort of cooperation in this regard with your allies. However, that might require accepting the fact that sometimes, other countries do things better than the US does. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
But this is another clear case of the police and government being more willing to protect their own than protect the people. From all reports, this guy should never have been a cop, which is part of the problem in the US. There is more training to become an airline pilot than a police officer and the public interacts with them a lot less. | ||
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