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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
December 26 2015 20:42 GMT
#53941
On December 27 2015 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2015 00:51 Sermokala wrote:
On December 25 2015 15:44 Deathstar wrote:
Man we need a country to really challenge us.

Beacuse the cold war was a really great time for everyone.


People like to complain about the US and how it wields its power. People like to forget how much peace has been brought to our planet by having such a dominant superpower.

People also like to exaggerate how much peace has been brought by the US waving nuclear missiles around.

Asia isn't any more peaceful because of threats from the US. Most of the conflict regions are still conflict regions, and the ones that aren't are mostly because China is now a firmly controlled area, and Japan has ended all imperialistic desires (which, okay, can be attributed partly to nukes).

Europe is more peaceful now than 100 years ago, but that's because Britain, France, Spain, Germany, etc. have moved past the age of conquering territory, being one of the only regions to actually know the consequences of extended modern warfare. Not because the US is telling them to play nice.

The Middle East is still violent. Africa is still violent. South America is still violent.

When you get down to it, very few wars have ever been averted because of the US puffing out its chest, and the majority that were are because the USSR and US had no desire to fight each other. And several of the worst, extended, wars post WW2 are because of the US military thinking they can just walk in and raze house.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1950 Posts
December 26 2015 21:24 GMT
#53942
What? The second half of the 20th century was not very peaceful. It was just very peaceful. For western Europe and northern America. Just because we did not have a world war 3 does not mean the time was peaceful. The first half of the century was just the escalation of a trend to globalize war and while Europe understood that as a sign to stop war altogether, USA and Russia were thankfully too afraidof each other that they did not attack each other the way they really really wanted. Meanwhile the dominant world power does not give a damn about wars as long as they don't influenece their interests.

It's certainly good that there was a counterweight to the Soviet Union, but that's basically it on a global scale.

My question from a few pages back hasn't been answered yet, has Bernie Sanders a chance to be nominated or absolutely not? Is there a presidential candidate that is not seen as a parody or clown by the opposing base?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 26 2015 21:39 GMT
#53943
On December 27 2015 06:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
What? The second half of the 20th century was not very peaceful. It was just very peaceful. For western Europe and northern America. Just because we did not have a world war 3 does not mean the time was peaceful. The first half of the century was just the escalation of a trend to globalize war and while Europe understood that as a sign to stop war altogether, USA and Russia were thankfully too afraidof each other that they did not attack each other the way they really really wanted. Meanwhile the dominant world power does not give a damn about wars as long as they don't influenece their interests.

It's certainly good that there was a counterweight to the Soviet Union, but that's basically it on a global scale.

My question from a few pages back hasn't been answered yet, has Bernie Sanders a chance to be nominated or absolutely not? Is there a presidential candidate that is not seen as a parody or clown by the opposing base?


I think it was answered but I can try again. Yes Bernie has a chance. He's been consistently gaining since he joined the race and is going to win NH. He's close in Iowa (within the MOE) and if he wins both it's likely he goes on to possibly win Nevada and do well in SC. The main opposition to Bernie among democrats is that Hillary is more likely to win and that she will "get stuff done"

If/when Bernie starts winning that argument falls apart and as Hillary describes her plan as more about preventing Republicans from making stuff worse and Bernie's is about actually improving things her "getting stuff done" essentially means doing practically nothing.

I think the main complaint about Bernie is that his proposals couldn't pass congress and that he's a "socialist" (which very few people have any idea what that means beyond "he's a communist Russian") So I think he has the best perception (by voters) of any of the candidates.

And if Hillary's campaign is any indication they've been sending out fundraising emails saying they might lose in Iowa and NH so they are scared enough to suggest it's a possibility (although it's also an attempt to lower expectations and just lower her average contribution, since people are picking up on the fact that her run is being sponsored mostly by wealthy donors who are already capped.). Which is also why she's been washing those contributions through the Democratic party in various states and some nationally.

She's campaigning like someone who is scared of losing, I see her in prevent defense and anyone familiar with football will tell you prevent defense only "prevents"a team from winning much of the time.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 26 2015 22:47 GMT
#53944
I don't really understand why Bernie brands himself as a socialist continuously. For the most part he'd probably pass as a moderate Social Democrat especially given that the word pretty much seems to enjoy insult status anyway.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-26 23:00:04
December 26 2015 22:59 GMT
#53945
And social democracy is a branch of moderate socialists so everything is fine.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-26 23:05:48
December 26 2015 23:05 GMT
#53946
On December 27 2015 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't really understand why Bernie brands himself as a socialist continuously. For the most part he'd probably pass as a moderate Social Democrat especially given that the word pretty much seems to enjoy insult status anyway.


I thought Bernie does label himself as a social democrat. I always thought it was his opposition that takes the word social out and uses it to fear-monger against him.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10842 Posts
December 26 2015 23:37 GMT
#53947
A social democrat is just a socialist acting within the bounds of a democratic state. Calling him socialist isn't wrong, it just summons scary images.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14101 Posts
December 27 2015 00:42 GMT
#53948
Social democrats are third way liberals. Tony blair had to reinvent the leftist position after the thatcher-reagan era of conservative victory over traditional collectivist and union backed economic policies. Basically noteing that the government must work in the capitalist system to achieve social gains.

In Germany you have ordoliberalism practiced by queeneurope merkel where the government is ment to create the correct environment for capitalism. Still free market rightest thinking but has a solid compromise that you need

you can't ignore the capitalist thinking behind the single payer system. There wouldn't be anyone to pay if it was socialist.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
December 27 2015 01:28 GMT
#53949
On December 27 2015 06:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
What? The second half of the 20th century was not very peaceful. It was just very peaceful. For western Europe and northern America. Just because we did not have a world war 3 does not mean the time was peaceful. The first half of the century was just the escalation of a trend to globalize war and while Europe understood that as a sign to stop war altogether, USA and Russia were thankfully too afraidof each other that they did not attack each other the way they really really wanted. Meanwhile the dominant world power does not give a damn about wars as long as they don't influenece their interests.

It's certainly good that there was a counterweight to the Soviet Union, but that's basically it on a global scale.

My question from a few pages back hasn't been answered yet, has Bernie Sanders a chance to be nominated or absolutely not? Is there a presidential candidate that is not seen as a parody or clown by the opposing base?


He's got a really slim chance. He's doing pretty well in very white states (N.H., Iowa), but his polling with minorities is awful and he's getting crushed nationally. He has also been losing ground since the debates in most polls.

If he can win a couple of the first states, he could build momentum and stand a chance, but he's still very much the underdog.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
December 27 2015 02:35 GMT
#53950
Discussed these topics in the Panther Coffee Shop in downtown Maimi FLA today.. It's very important to air out these deep political issues! The Middle East is much more violent & turbulent than the Midwest. The most recent Republican debate has narrowed the field to 8 candidates for the office of president of the United States of America.
stale trite schlub
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
December 27 2015 03:15 GMT
#53951
Would you vote for a socialist? He is a generally well-qualified person who has been nominated by your party.
47% yes, 50% no.
59% yes among democrats
49% yes among independents
26% yes among republicans


Calling yourself a socialist may as well be political suicide. That's why his campaign is seen as untenable. You propose socialist policies but you don't use the word socialist, or even democratic socialist, anywhere. Socialist president triggers people more than muslim president.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

---

I found this article on Bernie Sanders that gives a better understanding of where he is coming from. It just compounds how he has been driven throughout his life by a consistent ideology.


 When the Berlin Wall Fell, Bernie Sanders Didn’t Respond Like Other Politicians
Instead of heralding “the end of history,” Sanders called on Americans to take the revolutions of 1989 as a model.

Glasnost is usually translated into English as “openness,” but Sanders’s description of a collective, society-wide “soul searching” is much closer to the mark. While perestroika (“restructuring”) referred to a series of institutional political and economic transformations that Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev proposed in the late 1980s, glasnost became a signifier for the widespread loosening of censorship rules, travel restrictions, and government secrecy, which ultimately played a role in the end of the Cold War and of the Soviet Union.

Glasnost, as Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev conceived it, was intended to promote a vigorous public debate about the serious problems plaguing society, to expose and disempower corrupt and ineffectual functionaries (the universally derided “apparatchiks”), and to make the government more responsive to the people. In his Harvard Crimson article, Sanders made explicit his belief that glasnost was synonymous with what he now calls “political revolution.”

“Enormous credit must be given to Mikhail Gorbachev and the current leadership of the Soviet Union,” Sanders wrote, “for helping to bring about an extraordinary, non-violent revolution which is forcing citizens of the Soviet Union to rethink, in almost every way, the basic foundations of their nation.”

Without glasnost, Gorbachev believed, there could be no perestroika; without a popular outpouring of anger and dissent, the powerful and the privileged, those who profited from the status quo, would continue to block the thoroughgoing systemic reforms he had proposed. Similarly, Sanders acknowledges that the sweeping political changes necessary for making the United States a more just and equal nation are impossible—he is, indeed, that much-abused word, “unelectable”—without a groundswell of support among the marginalized and the disillusioned.

With increasing access to the outside world, Soviet citizens in the 1980s became aware of how profoundly their government was failing them. Throughout his campaign, Sanders has broken the taboo against politicians telling Americans how far they lag behind other developed countries in terms of providing education, healthcare, and employment benefits—indeed, in general satisfaction with life.

In the Harvard Crimson piece, Sanders suggested “four issues (out of many) at the heart of our existence as a nation which, within the context of an American Glasnost…need to be discussed vigorously…wherever Americans come together.” These are the four questions he raised:

Do we need radical changes in our economic system to provide a fairer distribution of wealth and economic decision-making?

How do we create a real democracy in which the average citizen has the opportunity to vote in elections in which meaningful choices are presented? Further, how do we create a political climate in which citizens play an active role in the affairs of their community?

Do we need a new political party in this country which represents the interests of working people, poor people, minorities, women, environmentalists, peace activists and all people who are not being adequately represented by the Democratic and Republican parties?

How can we create a media in this country which allows for a wide diversity of viewpoints, when ownership of the media is currently in the hands of very wealthy and powerful corporations which are primarily concerned with protecting their own economic interests?

With the not-insignificant exception of the third, these are the same questions that Sanders is raising today.


http://www.thenation.com/article/when-the-berlin-wall-fell-bernie-sanders-didnt-respond-like-other-politicians/
rip passion
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 27 2015 03:57 GMT
#53952
ANCHORAGE — Oil money no longer pays the bills here.

The governor, facing a profound fiscal crisis, has proposed the imposition of a personal income tax for the first time in 35 years. State lawmakers, who recently moved into a palatial new office building here, where they work when not toiling in the far-off Capitol in Juneau, are now seeking less costly digs.

And a state budget that was a point of Alaskan pride — and envy from around the nation — lies in tatters as revenue that flowed from selling crude oil from Prudhoe Bay over the past four decades has been swept away.

With oil prices down along with oil production, the state is facing an Alaska-size shortfall: Two-thirds of the revenue needed to cover this year’s $5.2 billion state budget cannot be collected.

Many Alaskans are not old enough to recall times this bad. This is the nation’s least-taxed state, where oil royalties and energy taxes once paid for 90 percent of state functions. Oil money was so plentiful that residents received annual dividend checks from a state savings fund that could total more than $8,000 for a family of four — arriving each autumn, as predictable as the first snowfall.

Gov. Bill Walker, an independent, is proposing to scale back those dividends as he seeks to get Alaska back on a stable financial footing with less dependence on oil. “It will move us back to where we were before,” he said in an interview. “We can do it.”

Every resource-dependent corner of the globe is in stress these days as commodity prices from copper to soybeans have collapsed to multiyear lows. States like Texas and Louisiana are also grappling with the oil downturn, but Alaska’s situation is unique.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-27 11:54:54
December 27 2015 11:51 GMT
#53953
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

Everyone was totally right about him having no chance (x2) too.

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).

Also it's not a coincidence Deathstar's poll comes from before Sanders really started gaining traction.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-27 12:54:16
December 27 2015 12:54 GMT
#53954
On December 27 2015 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't really understand why Bernie brands himself as a socialist continuously. For the most part he'd probably pass as a moderate Social Democrat especially given that the word pretty much seems to enjoy insult status anyway.

Because at the end of the day, he's still an edgy teenager who thrives on the idea of making a big splash and being controversial. He possibly could be the front runner right now if he didn't insist on being some kind of martyr for the term "socialist". It's sad.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8703 Posts
December 27 2015 13:02 GMT
#53955
On December 27 2015 21:54 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2015 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't really understand why Bernie brands himself as a socialist continuously. For the most part he'd probably pass as a moderate Social Democrat especially given that the word pretty much seems to enjoy insult status anyway.

Because at the end of the day, he's still an edgy teenager who thrives on the idea of making a big splash and being controversial. He possibly could be the front runner right now if he didn't insist on being some kind of martyr for the term "socialist". It's sad.


it's not sad... even with all his idealism and convictions, he is a realist.

and realistically - even with all her flaws - hillary is the best chance for another democratic presidency.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
zf
Profile Joined April 2011
231 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-27 15:04:06
December 27 2015 15:03 GMT
#53956
On December 27 2015 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

. . .

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).

Sanders's numbers are only half the story, though. Clinton is polling 10 percentage points higher than in 2007.

And I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that black voters think that it's "Sanders or no one." Clinton leads Sanders among black voters by more than 50 points. (I've seen polls as lopsided as 80+% Clinton, 10+% Sanders.)

Could Sanders win the primary? Sure. Will he win? Very likely not.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
December 27 2015 16:37 GMT
#53957
On December 28 2015 00:03 zf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2015 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just thought I'd add that Sanders is polling better than Obama was nationally at this time in 07.

. . .

Sanders is going to have to work harder for black voters but most black people who look at the issues/candidates and their positions, come to the conclusion that it's Sanders or no one (though, no one is doing pretty well).


And I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that black voters think that it's "Sanders or no one." Clinton leads Sanders among black voters by more than 50 points. (I've seen polls as lopsided as 80+% Clinton, 10+% Sanders.)


GH has said he'll vote for Trump if Clinton doesn't win because he wants the country to collapse sooner than later out of resentment for Sanders losing. I'm not sure I'd put much into his characterization of the black vote.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 27 2015 16:59 GMT
#53958
i have come to the conclusion that bernie fanboys are not really trying to solve any problems.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 27 2015 17:12 GMT
#53959
On December 24 2015 12:30 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2015 12:18 Danglars wrote:
On December 24 2015 11:03 m4ini wrote:
I would posit that very few people believe Trump's comments have been either racist or sexist. And I think most people can understand that it's a lie to say he hasn't been specific.


I'd posit that you're quite dislodged from reality if you actually mean what you just said there.

On December 24 2015 08:23 Cowboy64 wrote:
we all look at the world through our own biased lenses

It's all the way you see the world. Some people want to perceive everyone agreeing on the racist/sexist barbs, others see racists and sexists everywhere.


So just to be clear, you don't think stuff like this is sexist:




it's a problematic tweet because it draws a simple causal relationship between 'putting men and woemn together' and the rape number, but the issue itself is a legit one. a charitable or improved tween would read more like a direct criticism of the idealistic line of thinking among some in charge of the policy.

lack of preparation for integration or a well measured plan etc.

coming from someone other than trump it is a legitimate criticism of the current situation.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 27 2015 18:12 GMT
#53960
Sarah Jackson had quit abusing drugs and had been sober for six months when she found out she had hepatitis C.

"That was weeks of not sleeping and just constant tears," she says. "I had already put a lot of that behind me and had been moving forward with my life and this was just a major setback."

To get rid of the infection, her doctor prescribed Harvoni, one of the new generation of highly effective hepatitis C drugs. But Jackson never started the treatment because her insurance, Indiana's Medicaid, refused to pay for it.

"There's nowhere else to go," says Jackson. "The doctor tried and now I have no other place to turn."

More than 3 million people in United States are infected with hepatitis C, a virus that can destroy the liver and cause liver cancer. The number of cases is increasing, and most new cases are attributed to injection drug abuse, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In the last few years, new medications have come on the market that can cure hepatitis C with a more than 90 percent success rate. But these new drugs are famously expensive. A full 12-week course of Harvoni costs about $95,000. Because of that, Medicaid in many states restricts who receives the medication.

Medicaid in at least 34 states doesn't pay for treatment unless a patient already has liver damage, according to a report released in August. There are exceptions—for example, people who also have HIV or who have had liver transplants—but many living with chronic hepatitis C infection have to wait and worry.

"It is just not feasible to provide it to everyone," says Matt Salo, director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors. "States have to make sure that we're going to prioritize and that those who need it the most get priority treatment, and that's what you're seeing."

States get a discount on the drugs, but Salo says even if they could cut prices in half, treating everyone with hepatitis C would still cost too much for states' limited Medicaid budgets.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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