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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote:
I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
There was a way to deal with them, lots and lots of lings. Zergs were thinking it was a good idea to get 20 brood lords and have almost no ling support. People were once again using Ultras poorly and leading with them and making them vulnerable to snipe. Lead with the lings and it wouldn't happen.
Also ghosts are not really an answer because the EMP radius is so small, the Infestors are so big, and the Infestors are in the back.....the ghosts won't even get an EMP off. People get tanks because it is easier and much more efficient than ghosts with EMP.
Finally, transitioning into Ravens is incredibly difficult. Lay down all of the Starports, get all of the upgrades for the Raven alone and have the gas to even make them. Thus lies the next issue.......on most maps it is difficult to secure 5 bases as Terran unless you can split the map in half, and there aren't many bases that allow that.
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On November 09 2012 09:58 playa wrote:
I hate watching pro games because of infestors, but as far as playing against them... I can't think of anything I lose to less than infestor based play. When I hear infestor is OP, I either assume they mean infestor hard counters their style or they're referring to when you allow zerg to get way too many minerals, and they have a lot of infestors and broodlords and prob deserve the game, anyways. I do think the infestor serves too many roles, and when I watch t vs z it does seem imbalanced. As for my games, just keep not making mutas/banelings. Make all the infestors you want. They're really good units to be feared, at least so I hear.
When everyone pretty much plays copy cat, it's hard to really know what is imbalanced or not from what simply counters the style of the majority.
When something works at the pro level but doesn't work against you, feel free to assume that it's because your opponents are trash.
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On November 09 2012 09:40 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:43 plgElwood wrote:
I am bored by PvZ.
Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp.
What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach?
you dont have to open ffe every game... you can open 1 base... and dont say its bad. it usually is bad-ish. but not all strategies are created equal. everyone is looking for the strategy that gives them the best chance to win. before WG nerf, it was 4 gate. you can still 4 gate. or hell, do a 3 gate pressure while expanding. you dont just have to ffe every game. it is the best build for protosses at the moment, but if you want variety, you have variety. you can also open stargate. or open dt. do blink all in, immortal all in. heavy sentry warpgate all in. archon zealot. what you're describing is standard play... because its standard. you can deviate from the norm. you might get some silly losses but then again, you might figure it out and like something. And its always fun to change it up. sometimes i go 2 base muta in zvt just to change it up from the 3 base muta or infestor builds.
bad ish? well you probably have a better chance to win by saying gg and hoping he just leaves before you then actually winning with a 1 base opening verse zerg
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote:
I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
I understand why the ghost nerf was needed and I was only using it as an example to why the infestor should also be nerfed. Getting on even economy with zerg is actually pretty damn hard if they actively spread creep and controling map with lings. You might be fine during the mid game keeping up with econ but once the creep spread start invading your 4th and 5th, it become extremely hard. You cant get both Raven and ghost. Getting both at 12-13 min will completely destroy your army. Raven being high on gas and ghost being high on mineral will eat your army size considerably. Going raven or ghost that early will also cripple any form of map control you have because your army will be too weak to leave base.
This is why you dont see terran getting raven or ghost so early in TvZ because they are generally spending those mineral on hellion to harass or gas on upgrade and medivac for pressure. If you are going raven and ghost that early, it will cripple your army. EMP does hit 5 infestor assuming he bad and clump them, doesnt have overseer and broodling isnt already making a wall, or they get fungaled and killed by broodlord.
So I ask again, why is it okay for zerg to mass infestor and not okay for terran to mass ghost? Saying that ghost counter everything zerg had is the same as infestor countering everything terran has. I could of easily argued that zerg should of played more aggressive so terran couldnt get that mass ghost army.
I am beginning to thing Aurrora is just a troll -.-
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As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
I don't even have to quote more of your post.
why don't you just delete it?
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
This wasnt last month. This been considered a balance issue for almost/over 6 month now. And regarding archon, they have a problem getting close to BL because of broodlings and infestors fungal. Regarding Mothership, it was used many time, do you even watch the GSL? It been getting used for over 8 month now to handle the Infestor BL comp but now zerg just split their infestors up and it not that big of an issue. As long as they dont get caught in the vortex then their fine and it not that hard to avoid a super big and slow ship with a short range on vortex. The problem is, is that when zerg complain, they always get the nerf they wanted. So when the other two races voices their opinion they get shunned? Also TvZ generally end in less then 30min to explore raven cause BL generally come out in 16min to end the game.
Major said that the only way to shut this infestor BL thing down was with raven and I agree with him but to get to that point is like such a long stretch that I dont see it being feasible and also it can be lock down with fungal
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On November 09 2012 10:07 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote:
I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. There was a way to deal with them, lots and lots of lings. Zergs were thinking it was a good idea to get 20 brood lords and have almost no ling support. People were once again using Ultras poorly and leading with them and making them vulnerable to snipe. Lead with the lings and it wouldn't happen. Also ghosts are not really an answer because the EMP radius is so small, the Infestors are so big, and the Infestors are in the back.....the ghosts won't even get an EMP off. People get tanks because it is easier and much more efficient than ghosts with EMP. Finally, transitioning into Ravens is incredibly difficult. Lay down all of the Starports, get all of the upgrades for the Raven alone and have the gas to even make them. Thus lies the next issue.......on most maps it is difficult to secure 5 bases as Terran unless you can split the map in half, and there aren't many bases that allow that.
These are exactly my thoughts.
Seeing as I found Browder replying in a thread, I thought I could see if I could get him to reply to my post as well, although I highly doubt it. This is what I posted on bnet forums anyways, and I await his reply with anticipation:
So Mr. Browder, why not let zergs learn how to deal with ghosts before the ghost nerf? Why not let P's learn how to deal with mech terran (which was nerfed after ONE GAME!!!!!!!! of thorzain with difficulty beating MC with it)?
And so many other examples... why not let meta run its course on those units? Why insta-nerf ghost while letting infestor reign supreme for months? (It doesn't just now "appear overpowered".) I am questioning your consistency.
Furthermore, why doesn't T ever get to be countered? Why doesn't T get a lategame equivalent to mass colossus/templar or infestor/BL/corruptor. P and Z get to blindly spam a sickening combo, when T always has to COUNTER with vikings and ghosts. I want to be able to make BC's or ravens and have Z and P adapt to what I am making.
And with all this said, T is still the race getting the smallest amount of new units for HOTS, and the most boring ones at that.
If nothing changes, I know many T's (and P's too most likely) will keep their hands off HOTS, and I seriously doubt that's something you want to happen.
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
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On November 09 2012 08:47 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:36 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. What makes you classify infestor as a support caster? Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core. Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game. Casters have always been meant to be support/utility units for ur army. They were never meant to be your core army structure.
Where does it say casters cannot be designed to be the core army?
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On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
Altering your style takes a lot of work... maybe the pro players are hoping for a nerf lest they must work harder and modify their styles?
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
So I guess the Zerg is just going to sit has infestors in the open and let your storm them? Your HTs won't even get in reach before 4-5 brood lings are killing them
Ravens... One of the reasons ravens are so difficult is use is that they can get fungaled before they get in range to cast HSM.
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On November 09 2012 11:08 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts". Altering your style takes a lot of work... maybe the pro players are hoping for a nerf lest they must work harder and modify their styles?
Yes, all pro players are lazy and just sit there whining and hoping for nerfs... Sure, they are complaining but I am sure they are trying hard to find a solution as well. Could we say that Zerg players were just lazy and didn't want to find a solution to ghosts? And they just whined to Blizzard?
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On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
granted, the person you replied to is oversimplifying the situation. i still think a real problem exists where people's gut reaction is that unit XYZ is over/underpowered and needs to be balanced, when a lot of the power of said unit is a result of trending strategy. the game is constantly changing and things that were possible/powerful/situational a year ago are now impossible/weak/standard as a result of this strategy hive mind we call the meta game.
remember ghosts? ghosts were stats-wise the exact same unit for something like 18 months until it become standard to mass ghosts late-game TvZ, at which point they were promptly nerfed into oblivion. who uses ghosts TvZ any more? That's an example of Blizzard being pressured into essentially removing a unit from the game.
people need to be careful about how demanding they are to have things buffed/nerfed. i don't think anyone wants to see the infestor negated completely because diversity of tech choice is a good thing.
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Even if the pros magically figure out how to beat Infestors in the coming months, the problem is that Fungal Growth is completely overpowered from a design standpoint. 9 range, guaranteed 30 (40 vs armor) damage, guaranteed 4 second root, reveals cloak, prevents abilities from being used, and relatively low mana cost. Compare that to Storm for example, which lacks most of these additional built-in bonuses and only deals damage.
As soon as something is hit by FG, those units are gone and will take as many fungals as needed to finish them off together with damage from other Zerg units. The spell is so good it also removes the need for other units entirely, allowing Infestors to work perfectly fine on their own, which is why we often see huge Infestor numbers being built. Once you're fungaled, you're screwed. There is nothing else you can do. The easiest and best way to fix this spell is to change the 100% slow to something more mangable like 60% slow, allowing Protoss and Terran to micro against FG.
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On November 09 2012 11:31 Scila wrote:
Even if the pros magically figure out how to beat Infestors in the coming months, the problem is that Fungal Growth is completely overpowered from a design standpoint. 9 range, guaranteed 30 (40 vs armor) damage, guaranteed 4 second root, reveals cloak, prevents abilities from being used, and relatively low mana cost. Compare that to Storm for example, which lacks most of these additional built-in bonuses and only deals damage.
As soon as something is hit by FG, those units are gone and will take as many fungals as needed to finish them off together with damage from other Zerg units. The spell is so good it also removes the need for other units entirely, allowing Infestors to work perfectly fine on their own, which is why we often see huge Infestor numbers being built. Once you're fungaled, you're screwed. There is nothing else you can do. The easiest and best way to fix this spell is to change the 100% slow to something more mangable like 60% slow, allowing Protoss and Terran to micro against FG.
I agree fungal seems kinda screwed up... i can somehow see what they were maybe trying to accomplish though... moving out against a good zerg should be something that you plan... zerg is supposed to be the race that hides in the shadows and if you go looking you gonna be in for trouble...
so yes I agree getting hit by a fungal is bullshit... but, this does create a very real need to scout ahead and plan your engagements... i mean i am sure starship troopers didnt just wander around hoping to kill bugs
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I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote:
As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
I'll be nice/take the flamebait and reply point-by-point to this clearly biased, clueless and poorly thought out post.
1) Storm does not "melt" infestors because
a) You do not get close enough to storm before broodlords oneshot your hts
b) You can walk out of storms
2) Ravens are impossible to tech to thanks to the gas requirements, tech prerequisites and lots and lots of time to pool enough energy. Besides, with how terran is being pressured at all stages to respond to infestor-broods or mutas, you simply have no time and resources to do this.
3) EMP hits like 3 infestors per shot, while the ghosts can be insta-gibbed with broodlord attacks. It also takes multiple EMPs to empty the energy of the infestors. You say cloak, but which semi-decent zerg does not have detection via static-D or overseers? Not to mention. If you see ghosts moving towards you, by all means fungal and split.
4) " Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more" Lol, this is where you are funny. The pros at code S level are lazy are they? They don't change strats huh? All while infestor-broods are the go-to strategy every single game and autowins games unless they make a critical and unlikely mistake (in which case the zerg is a dumbass)?
5) Immo-sentry does not give the protoss player autowin. The only player who can autowin with the all-in is Parting. For everyone else, it's more of a 60% win coin flip, and can clearly be stopped by zergs with enough foresight and bother to scout (with their insanely efficient scouting tools).
6) Storm the f out of zerg, in range of broodlords? Not gonna happen. Archons are fungaled.
7) Mothership. Funny that you even bring this up. For the archon toilet to even work, the following have to occur:
a) The zerg makes a critical mistakes and clumps everything up (deserves to lose)
b) They have to be idiotic enough to let the mothership approach to the super close range required to cast vortex
c) The zerg would be unable to use, did not research, or did not have the presence of mind to use Neural Parasite.
d) The zerg would have to be stupid enough to not have fungaled the archons in place, allowing them to move into the toilet.
Really, your arguments are a bunch of biased ideas from a zerg player who clearly has never played other races at a halfway competent level against your own race. It must delight you greatly to use this batshit-insane strategy which requires no skill to use, yet needs so much response, initiative, apm, micro, smart decisions and not to mention luck from your opponent.
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I'm thinking that correct, strategically-mature resource allocation might be an issue.
Examples:
Suppose I have 40 marines... they eat some fungals... it didn't matter if I had 40 marines or 20 marines.
Suppose I am using marine marauder but whenever my army is fighting, there is always a small group at the back (say 2-3 marauders and 4-6 marines) that are never firing in my engagements.
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Does this mean I could have potentially spent those resources in another place? Perhaps anti-broodlord tech?
EDIT:
in short, the effectiveness of a unit does depend on the state of the game (early, mid, late, low-econ game, game with lots of harassment from both side).
The idea is that once a units effectiveness tapers off, you should stop building it. Even though it will add effectiveness to your overall composition, the addition becomes small, possibly negligible.
These timings are hard to figure out. I believe they were figured out exceptionally well in brood war.
In starcraft 2, I believe they have not been figured out for all stages and states of a game.
EDIT2:
although fungal appears broken, i can live in a world where it's known that if they infestor count gets too high the game is harder to win
this might make for exciting stages of a game when it is the infestors that are the targets!
this already exists somewhat... when you face a zerg in a macro game you have to make some moves... sometimes these moves come in the form of killing workers... when you are executing your attack, it is all about zerg defending his drones vs you killing his drones... do you see where i am going with this for infestors?
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On November 09 2012 11:57 mishimaBeef wrote:
I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse
I believe the current metagame is "kill zerg before they reach BL/Infestor" as at least Terran as a stronger early/midgame? I hear there does exist a timing where zerg has to sit on gas and minerals while switching to broods, so maybe they're vulnerable then too? I don't think that that balances things out, however, if the conclusion is "if I miss that timing, I lose the game."
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EPT
