EPTImmortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp.
What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach?
Dustin Browder On the Infestor - Page 24
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp. What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach? | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:36 mishimaBeef wrote: What makes you classify infestor as a support caster? Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core. Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game. Casters have always been meant to be support/utility units for ur army. They were never meant to be your core army structure. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:01 MayZerG_UK wrote: If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining? So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:17 Jetaap wrote: Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible. zvz finals everywhere lowers the watchers by a HUGE amount, i for example watched not even MLG final because of zvz ... and THATS makes the game terrible | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:48 Hryul wrote: So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine. actually Life won the MLG..... | ||
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Siwelcela
United States87 Posts
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
Yup, Leenock only won the one before that. And DRG the one before that. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:43 plgElwood wrote: I am bored by PvZ. Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp. What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach? you dont have to open ffe every game... you can open 1 base... and dont say its bad. it usually is bad-ish. but not all strategies are created equal. everyone is looking for the strategy that gives them the best chance to win. before WG nerf, it was 4 gate. you can still 4 gate. or hell, do a 3 gate pressure while expanding. you dont just have to ffe every game. it is the best build for protosses at the moment, but if you want variety, you have variety. you can also open stargate. or open dt. do blink all in, immortal all in. heavy sentry warpgate all in. archon zealot. what you're describing is standard play... because its standard. you can deviate from the norm. you might get some silly losses but then again, you might figure it out and like something. And its always fun to change it up. sometimes i go 2 base muta in zvt just to change it up from the 3 base muta or infestor builds. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there. If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:48 Hryul wrote: So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine. 1st and second place were zergs. then lets look at 3rd through 8th place. 2 of them were protoss and the other were terran. just because two zergs made it to the finals doesnt mean anything. next mlg we might have a tvt or a tvp or a pvp or have a zerg in a match up. theres only 3 races... theres not much diversity in the matchups we can get. so yes, there will be a mirror match up. anyways life is probably one of the best players on the planet right now. he just won gsl and just won mlg back to back. thats no surprise. and leenock is always solid. hell, flash beat life earlier in mlg. i dont see the problem with the current situation. its just the people in the community want buffs and feel like the other races need nerfs. learn to play, study the game, and get good. until you're grandmaster, stop complaining. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:53 CoR wrote: zvz finals everywhere lowers the watchers by a HUGE amount, i for example watched not even MLG final because of zvz ... and THATS makes the game terrible Quoted for truth. I'm not one to bitch and whine about having same races in the finals exclusively, as I actually ENJOYED GomTvT as a protoss player, but that's because TvT is actually interesting to watch. But as of this season's gsl, I've changed my stance from being neutral, and believing that the better player would always win, to simply wishing that zerg didn't exist. I've ceased watching all zerg matchups; the blatant unfairness of the late game just puts me on tilt far too much. After watching so many games of "NICE FUNGALS!!!" take back the game from an impossible position, against terran/protoss players who played much better, I would be kidding myself if I still think that the better player wins. Broodlord-infestor is a pathetic joke, a humiliation for Starcraft 2, a insane disaster that kills interest in E-sports. Yes, I am basing all these upon my own opinions when watching the composition in tournaments. But so what? Do the zerg supporters actually ENJOY seeing a money fungal land, then broodlings flying in and ripping everything apart, and then spamming a million infested terrans as free meatshields that deal insane damage to end the game? Because besides Leenock, that's what every single zerg does. Even Life, who was formerly celebrated for his intriguing and highly entertaining early-midgame strategies. Also, there's the matter of "NICE FUNGALS!!!". The skill disparity required to "pull off' a "nice fungal" verses the supposedly OP-Snipes that only Mvp was able to pull off, and also the marine splits that terrans are supposed to be able to do in order to minimize the effect really puzzles me. How can zergs say "l2 split" when all they need to do in order to land a money fungal is 2 simple actions? This really boggles my mind to no end. Also, don't give me the "other zerg units are lousy" bullshit. Mutalisks are quite likely the best harassing units in the game bar none. Roaches, while infamously "supply inefficient", don't even need to be supply efficient in the midgame due to zerg production capabilities powering past both terran and protoss. Banelings are extremely cost and supply efficient, while requiring lots of skill to hit, so that's an example of a zerg unit done right. Hydras are simply lousy, I'll give you that. Broodlords however, are another slice of the bullshit-pie. Restricting micro along with fungal, they form the ultimate partners in crime pair in the entire game. I'm sorry, but at this point, if infestor-broodlord isn't somehow altered, any zerg matchup is unwatchable, unless you love seeing zergs rip apart opposing armies at no cost, or costing only energy. Infested terrans+fungal root+ broodlings for the win. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:44 Aurrora wrote: hell, flash beat life earlier in mlg. It sure gives Terran some hope. “Look, you can defeat Zergs if they're kind enough to give you 10 Infestors.” | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote: Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. Love the confidence with which people say that despite barely having more data than Mvp crushing inferior Zergs (sometimes after vastly outplaying them in midgame). I, on the other hand, remember a ForGG vs Leenock game on Daybreak in which ForGG tried to mass Ghosts too but horribly failed due to his Ghost squad being caught in a Fungal and subsequently dying. So much for the “unbeatable mass Ghosts”. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. Have you ever watched a high level lategame PVZ? Nobody can get enough Feedbacks off. Nobody. We can't make 35 HTs the same way you make 35 Infestors. It's just not viable. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. If this works, do you really think we'd see such performances from terran and protoss pros at the highest levels against zerg? The key here is that before ghosts and high templars can get close to use their spells on the infestors, broodlords WILL kill them. And there's a ton of ways to see it coming. You can spot templars so easily, there isn't even any argument about it. Creepd spread, overlords and overseers will all see the high templar coming, and they WILL get one-shotted by the broodlord cloud. As for ghosts, they aren't even a practical solution. They have no other purpose except for emping infestors. If you don't pull if off, it was wasted supply that could have been a few more vikings to make the difference versus corruptor-broods. Again, there are so many ways to see it coming, and you need so many ghosts to do it against many infestors, thanks to their annoyingly and illogically large collision size. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
When everyone pretty much plays copy cat, it's hard to really know what is imbalanced or not from what simply counters the style of the majority. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. Well I don't really think that ravens are the answer, they take too long to switch into, and aren't the best way to deal with BL. What happens if they ultra switch, what are your Ravens going to do, fly around and cast some auto turrets (which do nothing to Ultras?) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:54 Shiori wrote: Have you ever watched a high level lategame PVZ? Nobody can get enough Feedbacks off. Nobody. We can't make 35 HTs the same way you make 35 Infestors. It's just not viable. You could make 60 HTs and still fail to Feedback more than 5 Infestors anyway. People need to realize that Broodlords spawn a living shield which prevents ground units from reaching Infestors beneath. The only ground unit that may safely blast Infestors from afar is the Siege Tank; pity it has to be microed each shot else it is busy killing itself (or other units in front) thanks to the endless stream of Broodlings. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:59 VPVanek wrote: Well I don't really think that ravens are the answer, they take too long to switch into, and aren't the best way to deal with BL. What happens if they ultra switch, what are your Ravens going to do, fly around and cast some auto turrets (which do nothing to Ultras?) While Ravens aren't good vs ultras, it doesn't mean they aren't still an incredibly useful unit. 1. You can tech switch to banshee with your existing starports as they've given up air control (otherwise your ravens are still useful at countering air). 2. Harass mineral lines. 3. Kill infestors with seeker. 4. Mass auto turret expansions or even the main base (yes, this actually workers, the mass auto turrets will perform exceptional vs lings and basically the Zerg has to use ultras to get rid of them, which is a huge time sink for pure energy). I've been going ravens since the game was first released in season 1... never went ghosts because I originally thought they were garbage. I was wrong, but by the time I figured that out I was already used to ravens. | ||
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