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On November 09 2012 06:06 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider. Ah, good point. It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor  Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun  Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS.
The current EMP radius was established with TvP in mind, I think it was a .5 reduction in total AoE to 1.5 so I am not sure a .25 or some similar change would be worth it, or worth the affect on TvP (that would likely be minimal) Perhaps they'll play with it on the test map.
My favorite proposed change at the moment is no snare (replaced with slow) on massive units, and the supply change. I personally have been down right shocked at how big infestor clouds have gotten at the highest level.
MMA did some cheeky stuff with unsieged tanks (Picking them up in Medivacs and moving them around to snipe infestors,), while effective and cute it was extremely contextual (i.e. infestors weren't at critical mass). The opportunity cost versus risk is too high for both Terran and Protoss attempting to use tanks or Immortals to do this, and HT drops I would wager have higher utility all round. Interesting, fun play from MMA if you hadn't seen it regardless.
Link to play from IPL Top Five
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 09 2012 06:23 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:06 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider. Ah, good point. It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS. The current EMP radius was established with TvP in mind, I think it was a .5 reduction in total AoE to 1.5 so I am not sure a .25 or some similar change would be worth it or the affect on TvP (that would likely be minimal) Perhaps they'll play with it on the test map. My favorite proposed change at the moment is no snare on massive units, and the supply change. I have been down right shocked at how big infestor clouds have gotten at the highest level. MMA did some cheeky stuff with unsieged tanks (Picking them up in Medivacs and moving them around to snipe infestors,), while effective and cute it was extremely contextual. The opportunity cost versus risk is too high for both Terran and Protoss attempting to use tanks or Immortals to do this, and HT drops I would wager have higher utility all round. Interesting, fun play from MMA if you hadn't seen it regardless. Link to play from IPL Top Five+ Show Spoiler +http://youtu.be/Lcti7N5Zuo0?t=2m4s
Oh man those finals against DRG, some of the sickest drop play I've ever seen. Won him the 5th and 7th game. Surprised we don't see terrans just go "I'm a muthafucking badass" and send 2 medivacs full of tanks around the side.
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its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
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On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
Hype plays a huge role, there was a similar quick turn around if memory serves, with blue flame hellions after the Slayers team showed off just how good that unit is TvZ.
Looking at liquipedia it was MLG Anaheim 2011, where they really took off as a TvZ staple.
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On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this.
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I think they should wait a month or two to balance anything that seems unbalanced for exactly the reasons given. There was a while in early WoL when Mutalisks looked overpowered but they ended up being fine once proper methods to defend against them were developed, then the metagame shifted away from them and they cemented their niche. Totally par for the course (most of the time).
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browder fail. if they had a more solid matchraft understanding of the underlying game, it'd be obvious that infestors are OP'd.
units are supposed to have a range of good and bad matchups; and infestors have good matchups vs faaaar too many units; because they have far too much flexibility as a caster. when spellcasters are too flexible, they can all too easily become god units; with very few regular units being made at all. while not quite at that point, infestors are dangerously high; becasue their spells are useful in too many situations; it's better if a caster is good vs some things, but decidedly weak vs others.
and it's wlel known that when things change; communities often take a while to fully take advantage of them; which is why a good understanding of the underlying math helps. it doesn't mean things weren't overpowered when you changed them; it just means people didn't instantly change all their well-practiced builds to use them.
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On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this.
....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats?
Uber Templar
Pros
Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore
HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced
Movement speed increased
hp increased
can now mind control temporarily
new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans)
Cons
cost 50 more minerals
I would take this any day
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On November 09 2012 07:19 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. ....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats? Uber Templar Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans) Cons cost 50 more minerals I would take this any day
The difference is that other zerg units are mundane, whereas protoss has multiple spellcasters, multiple sources of late game AoE, cloaked harassment, high hp, and a hero unit. Zerg has all of these utilities shoved into one unit so it only takes one tech building to acquire, and the semblance of overpoweredness.
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On November 09 2012 07:19 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. ....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats? Uber Templar Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans) Cons cost 50 more minerals I would take this any day
There isn't complete certainty whether or not the infestor's strength is due to zerg's place in the metagame being able to turtle and mass them, or a broken unit that must be fixed. Very few if anyone has the foresight to know this, and the people who like to think they do are usually biased. Which is why it's much safer to let the metagame play out for several months and see if the pros can solve it on their own before resorting to the most extreme solution which is altering the game entirely with a patch. The infestor is probably broken, but only because of the state of the metagame, which means a direct nerf to the infestor isn't the only possible solution.
Have you heard YOURSELF -- or for that matter, seen the state of ZvP in broodwar <2007? Unless winrates spiral out of control (which they haven't and won't) they'll take their time putting together the correct solution (not ANY solution). It's a godsend that Blizzard has slowed down the patches recently. Thank god they stopped caving into community members like you.
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If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining?
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There are so many idiots around here.... why are people complaining about infestors in particular when thats what the game mechanics/ hotkey mechanics / smartcasting / race mechanics/unit movement of sc2 gives us; very powerful casters....
people are incredibly narrowminded.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 09 2012 08:04 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
There are so many idiots around here.... why are people complaining about infestors in particular when thats what the game mechanics/ hotkey mechanics / smartcasting / race mechanics/unit movement of sc2 gives us; very powerful casters....
people are incredibly narrowminded.
Because this only started happening recently following the queen patch? You'd think Blizzard would have hired you on the spot with your brilliant insight. What solution would you propose -- revert SC2 to BW? lol.
yeah, people are incredibly narrowminded idiots because their first thought about the infestor wasn't, 'sc2 is too easy.'
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On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this.
History goes back further than the last six months. Blizzard, after buffing the queen for no reason and sending Terran winrates into the toilet, suddenly saying "from now on we have decided that we are no longer going to make hasty balance changes to the game" even though the brood lord/infestor doom army problem has persisted in two matchups a long time, is not only a random stance reversal (there's another word for this) but also not even in keeping with their randomly declared new stance on balance changes. This isn't snipe or blue flame or khaydarin amulet. Everyone with a brain knows Protoss has to say a prayer and hope their vortexes are good to have a chance, and even then often lose even when the vortexes are good, and everyone with a brain also knows that Terran has to dance on a razor's edge to beat that army because of how insanely unforgiving it is if you get hit by even one money fungal. And it's been like this for month after month.
Blizzard is either wrong or they're wrong, you just have to pick the reason.
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I didn't see anyone mention this yet, but couldn't you change fungal so it both restricts micro & encourages micro?
Have it be timed, you cast it, a pool of spores forms on the ground, there's a delay, then the snare.
Wouldn't something like that fix all the complaints?
This would make fast moving units a pretty good counter to fungals, perhaps fungal itself would need a duration or damage buff to compensate.
I'm hoping it's changed to something like this as it would be fun to watch.
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On November 09 2012 08:17 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote:
its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. History goes back further than the last six months. Blizzard, after buffing the queen for no reason and sending Terran winrates into the toilet, suddenly saying "from now on we have decided that we are no longer going to make hasty balance changes to the game" even though the brood lord/infestor doom army problem has persisted in two matchups a long time, is not only a random stance reversal (there's another word for this) but also not even in keeping with their randomly declared new stance on balance changes. This isn't snipe or blue flame or khaydarin amulet. Everyone with a brain knows Protoss has to say a prayer and hope their vortexes are good to have a chance, and even then often lose even when the vortexes are good, and everyone with a brain also knows that Terran has to dance on a razor's edge to beat that army because of how insanely unforgiving it is if you get hit by even one money fungal. Blizzard is either wrong or they're wrong, you just have to pick the reason.
They're breaking all precedence, a complete 180 on their 'historical' form of balancing, and patching slowly. Hopefully for as long as SC2 exists (probably not during first year of HotS/LotV but hopefully afterwards). No, the broodlord/infestor composition was never like it was now, where Zerg takes a free third and turtles to 12 minute hives.
Top terrans winrates: virtually unaffected.
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Maybe a year from now he'll hear whispers about the colossus being boring  .
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On November 09 2012 08:24 rd wrote:
Top terrans winrates: virtually unaffected.
GSL win rate tvz 36%
Unaffected you say
20% terrans in gm and 22% in masters compared to a solid double (42 and 40%) zergs. Yep, everything seems perfectly close to 50%.
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Jesus we're just asking them to make it harder to do not completely remove the combo of the two...
You know why EMP was nerfed? Because it was too good and too easy to use. They made it more difficult and now it's alot more balanced than it was before.
Know what immortals recieved a buff to combat the 1-1-1? Because it was too easy to complete and too powerful. So they made the timing alot weaker with a few buffs/nerfs. It's still in the game, it's still powerful. But it's both easier to beat and not a near-guarenteed win.
Do the freaking same with infestor/broodlord. Make it a bit weaker, make it a bit easier to beat. That's all you need to do, there doesnt have to be a "well it's 50-50 hurrrrrrr........" discussion, you just need to use your head. You make fungal have a lower range, or make infestors cost more supply so there is less room for other units. Or you do SOMETHING to make it so that brood/infestor is not the "end-all".
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On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
What makes you classify infestor as a support caster?
Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core.
Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game.
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EPT
