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On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote:
my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play.
also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks.
On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release.
bunker changes
On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way.
also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something
On November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed.
why don't you just win in the lategame instead
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On November 09 2012 04:06 floor exercise wrote:This is why he gets paid the big bucks, he asks the questions no one else thinks to ask. Infestors: Are they forever?
I love this. You made my hour.
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A branded response, but a response nonetheless. A test map should be fun to tinker with in the mean time for WoL.
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Its been around for months, how can dustin browder not realize it?
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On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote:
my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead
It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it.
I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL.
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Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light.
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This is the right approach. If they'd try the approach of nerfing it (with a risk of rendering them obsolete), Zerg goes from really fucking strong to literally never winning. The infestor is too good as it is, but it's such a massive part of the zerg army right now that straight up nerfs may not be able to fix it.
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On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Is this forever?!?!?! The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something
There is that saying of "You've got to be one to know one." and this basically means you have to be an expert to recognize an expert. Sometimes this is true and sometimes the exact opposite is true and I feel the "opposite" is true for the balancing process, because Browder and his devs are too involved in daily details and have lost the view for "the big problems".
My opinion of SC2 having a serious problem due to the "unit density" of infantry has only formed slowly, but I doubt they would come up with that since the "unit size" or "units per area" values are not listed anywhere. This IS a problem, because there are too many infantry units in one piece of area. + Show Spoiler +Just try to count how many Marines can stand in the space of a Siege Tank any you basically recognize that there will be a lot more dps incoming to the Siege Tank from a bunch of bio units than the tank deals to the bio units.
A quick test number which isnt specific:
- roughly 3-4 Marauders occupy the space of a Siege Tank
- roughly 5-6 Marines occupy the space of a Siege Tank
On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote:
Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light.
Ghosts are also not as versatile as Infestors with their abilities, so by getting lots of Ghosts you dont really get a strong army against anything but Infestors and basically disadvantage yourself against anything else.
On November 09 2012 04:49 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote:
my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it. I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL.
Liberal or conservative depends upon the values you are looking at. You are liberal in that you allow stupid and obvious "needs to be fixed" things longer in the game. The problem is that this "we will be more careful with balancing" approach might end up with them not fixing anything anymore either because they are too scared or too lazy to do it. I think they are looking at the wrong targets for fixing SC2 anyways, because its not the units that are the biggest problem, but rather several general mechanics.
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The fact that he is commenting on the infestor in particular means that blizzard already knows that there may be problems. His response is highly neutral because they are not sure what they want to do with it yet and taking a side too early would only bite him in the butt.
That being said, any support unit that is essential for prolonged success in playing a certain race should be changed.in a way that it augments play instead of being a necessity.
Ex. protoss can't hold terran pushes early on without force fields, zerg can't hold protoss pushes without fungal growth.
Especially since these support units are very gas intensive, they severely limit variability in play to he point that a highly variable game such a starcraft can become PREDICTABLE! By changing the roles of these units in gameplay, viewers would experience a much more variable and uninhibited game.
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As a zerg I can say that the Infestor = dominant strategy.
The lack of dominant strategy is what keeps starcraft interesting.
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On November 09 2012 05:05 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Is this forever?!?!?! The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something There is that saying of "You've got to be one to know one." and this basically means you have to be an expert to recognize an expert. Sometimes this is true and sometimes the exact opposite is true and I feel the "opposite" is true for the balancing process, because Browder and his devs are too involved in daily details and have lost the view for "the big problems". My opinion of SC2 having a serious problem due to the "unit density" of infantry has only formed slowly, but I doubt they would come up with that since the "unit size" or "units per area" values are not listed anywhere. This IS a problem, because there are too many infantry units in one piece of area. + Show Spoiler +Just try to count how many Marines can stand in the space of a Siege Tank any you basically recognize that there will be a lot more dps incoming to the Siege Tank from a bunch of bio units than the tank deals to the bio units.
A quick test number which isnt specific:
- roughly 3-4 Marauders occupy the space of a Siege Tank
- roughly 5-6 Marines occupy the space of a Siege Tank On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote:
Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light. Ghosts are also not as versatile as Infestors with their abilities, so by getting lots of Ghosts you dont really get a strong army against anything but Infestors and basically disadvantage yourself against anything else. On November 09 2012 04:49 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote:
my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it. I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL. Liberal or conservative depends upon the values you are looking at. You are liberal in that you allow stupid and obvious "needs to be fixed" things longer in the game. The problem is that this "we will be more careful with balancing" approach might end up with them not fixing anything anymore either because they are too scared or too lazy to do it. I think they are looking at the wrong targets for fixing SC2 anyways, because its not the units that are the biggest problem, but rather several general mechanics.
Conservative in the sense I feel the solutions to SC2's problems should come from player's innovating or new maps. Blizzard coming in and patching should be a last resort after theres no questions left as to whether or not a specific feature is entirely broken and unsolveable in a given metagame.
Literally within the same paragraph where they promised to restrain immediately patching, they said they'd work towards a solution if none can be found. It's just not coming as fast as people want. They're giving me the exact opposite impression -- that they aren't going to cave in to community outrage over balance out of fear. Which is, good in some ways and bad in others. And they certainly aren't lazy, just very cautious, and busy with HotS.
As for the problem with the mechanic, the mechanic only appears fundamentally broken because this metagame has evolved to allow Zerg to mass infestors so freely, where they never did as much pre-queen patch. I wouldn't jump the gun on fixing zerg as a whole before a balance patch that tones down infestors/and or Zerg's ability to turtle to late game. Reverting the queen and giving better options to pressure the third might be all it takes. The queen buff pretty much started this massive metagame swing to turtle zerg anyways.
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Increase the range of Snipe? Aren't Ghosts supposed to counter Infestors by design? It changes HT's a little bit, but just forces them to make Archons or split their HT's up thus breaking up the deathball, so, win/win. Shit, make the range on snipe like 12 with a cast time. Makes it more like sniping anyway, and makes Ghosts fill that Assassin class role. I guess that doesn't deal with 24 Infestor compositions though...just stop fungal from snaring massive units, then play skyterran?
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It's been common knowledge for months now that the Infestor is basically GODMODE for Zerg. I guess on the bright side, it's better now than never that Dustin finally realized this.
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Just to throw a bit of criticism at the community, there are so many voluminous whingers (on b.net, but also on liquid) that Blizzard absolutely needs to have a thick skin and take their time with regard to balance patches, because otherwise they can't be sure whether or not they're just being influenced by people emotionally invested in seeing P or T beat Z (or vice versa). It seems like a very unhealthy dynamic, to be honest.
If the infestor needs changing, it will be changed. Seems okay to me.
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Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great.
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On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great.
Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed.
Just something to consider.
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On November 09 2012 05:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
It's been common knowledge for months now that the Infestor is basically GODMODE for Zerg. I guess on the bright side, it's better now than never that Dustin finally realized this.
they are bound to realize is sooner or later, when they see former code s players losing to average zergs in the "highest" competetive league.
Zerg used to be about decision making, there nothing of that anymore because everything a zerg does is perfectly safe until lategame and this always with an huge economic advantage in a standard game were both side don't do major mistakes.
it just took 2 guys (DRG, Stefano) to make a formerly "UP UP UP" balance whiniest race to the strongest, just by using what they had instead of just hitting their head at a wall. It just shows that all the nerfs other races got due to Zerg beeing supposed to be weak. wrong.
mass roaches, speedlng, roach midgame, fast 3 hatches all were possible even at the beginning of sc2 (on semi decent maps)
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On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider.
Ah, good point.
It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor 
Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun  Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS.
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On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote:
Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light.
This is exactly why I don't understand why they had to nerf it, and why so many Zerg players were complaining that mass ghosts were OP. They require a lot of control to actually be useful, far more than Infestors do. Yet snipe was nerfed quickly and infestors are still unchanged...
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On November 09 2012 06:15 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote:
Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light. This is exactly why I don't understand why they had to nerf it, and why so many Zerg players were complaining that mass ghosts were OP. They require a lot of control to actually be useful, far more than Infestors do. Yet snipe was nerfed quickly and infestors are still unchanged...
reason is simple, snipe kills quickly there it is way more clear (flashy) that it is op due to abuse.
Fungal doesn't kill as quickly, therefore doesn't seem as op in comparision, however it is of course still OP as fuck.
just because it doesn't kill everything immediatly doesn't mean its weak/balanced, it is by far the strongest spell in the game.
Whats funny is that Zerg is already the most mobile spell, you would think that if one race needed a "stunning" spell it would be protoss to keep the others from running away.
When does Zerg has this problem with +4 Speed on Roaches on creep, +4 Speed on Speedlings of creep?
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EPT
