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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more?
Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ.
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On November 09 2012 01:26 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? The problem is the end game happens so fast with zegs explosive economy. When you say midgame, you mean you are doing a prehive timing. If you don't hit that timing, I guarentee no matter what army you were able to produce, no matter how greedy you were in getting that army, you will lose. Try beating zerg without using your prehive timing. Try getting any army in the game you want. Try winning without effectively killing zerg before BLs (with your timing), and you will see why people compain. I too am pretty good against zergs, because I am good at 2-base all ins, and on ladder where you rarely meet the same person twice, it is hard to stop. That doesn't mean I should say infestors/BLs aren't a problem guys, because you should just do an allin. The problem is good players figure out the allins, the timings, and you are left with having to contend with an unkillable army. And every game should not boil down to: which 2-base allin, or 3 base timing will protoss do to kill or severely cripple zerg.
The key in SC (at a higher level) that protoss fail to realize is that protoss economy actually grows faster then zerg economy. I know - shocking right?
What I mean by this is that Protoss can make army +economy at the same time, while zerg has to pick between 1 or the other, so this transitions into me saying that in the midgame, you are suppose to be harassing the zerg into making an army that is essentially useless (other then defending the harassment), while you get your economy up. Pre-broodlord timings are just one sort of timing atk that is convenient to hit, other timing atks include pre-60drone timing attacks, pre-third base timing attacks, finding a strat that can hit at all these different timing enables your economy to be much further then zerg and so you actually should hit the end game composition earlier then zerg (this is the case for my PvZ strat).
Also, when zerg gets hive, if you get stargate right at that time, your mothership is out with 100 energy by the time zerg has like 5 broods, so sometimes, if i dont wanna hit a pre-brood timing atk, i choose to hit a 100energy mothership timing attack. both extremely strong
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On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ.
Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight.
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On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight.
No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that?
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On November 08 2012 11:28 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote:
Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use. Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass.
Don't forget that maps are significantly bigger and allow Zerg to get better economy and production than before, which permits the more swarmy, cost-inefficient style Zerg is supposed to have. We still see the style work well when employed, it's just that Zerg players have gotten lazy and overly dependent on fungal/gglord armies that don't require a fraction of the skill to use that hatch/lair tech armies do.
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On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that?
Well lets think of why this is:
Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1
Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative.
Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly.
What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
But you are a professional player?
I Like what youre saying, even on my low level of the game I have always felt that theres something more to the PvZ matchup that should make it possible to take them to a better standpoint rather than kinda throw midgame units on the zerg and hope for the best thus falling behind unless it works very well.
Do you feel like T could do something similar instead of rely on throwing hellion/marauder/marine/banshee attacks early game thus falling behind late; perhaps utilizing mules and /or supply drops and implement more ghosts/ravens to deal with infestors?
Perhaps try to hit before infestors are out and more so feign pressure than actually comitting which would force lots of larvae usage? same with when 3rd is done and should be saturated perhaps? Clearly I have no idea what im talking about xD
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On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player?
Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics.
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On November 09 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player? Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics.
that is true, Nestea being one of them tbh.
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Buff carriers, problem solved. Also more interesting with carriers on the field. In my lowly non-pro master ranking (I'm glad we're qualifying our play levels now...) I enjoy liberal use of carriers to beat the composition. Sure it's not fail-proof and the times we've seen it at a pro-level the toss ends up losing, but it's fun and can win at a level short of pro.
Terran should get a buff to viking ground damage as well. I have no idea what it would do, but I'd find it interesting to see them on the ground more often and have it be part of the game to determine how you want your vikings to exist, and have them be caught off guard on the ground/air.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season?
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
That would make sense if there weren't 7/8 Zergs in Code S RO16 this season.
It's not that innovation isn't possible, but it seems that WOL in its current state angles games down specific optimal angles, and the room for innovation is not all that deep. Can anybody innovate a truly viable sky Protoss build, for example? I don't think so. Maybe a gimmicky timing build, but anti-air counters are so efficient that innovation in this arena seems straight up impossible.
And of course there's the ancient 'can Terrans mech against Protoss?' question that seems to be consistently answered with 'lol no'.
I'm increasingly skeptical about the KeSPA pros triggering any significant metagame shift, too. Plenty of them are playing, but most of the time - at the top end - they're doing familiar strategies with greater efficiency and sweet sweet micro that make them more fun to watch.
I loved Baby's harass in this Code S, for example. Beautiful to watch. Still got him killed when his opponent just walked across the map and A-moved into his forces.
While I do think more KeSPA guys will trend upwards over the coming year, I don't think we'll see anything dramatically different out of them.
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On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play.
Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in.
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I like when they take thing slow when balancing the game. Also agree with him when he said he want to balance the game by balance the map first.
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On November 09 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player? Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics.
Low GM on Korean ladder from Canada.
NobodyImportant must be on par with Huk and Scarlett then 
And of course, with 120apm.
Right...
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I wish Blizzard were in contact with the starcraft intelligentsia because they seem to lack a comprehensive understanding of the game in Anaheim.
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On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote:
Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season?
lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments?
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
lol. You're obviously not GM on Korean server. Show some credentials or don't mention it at all.
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What are the pros in the private pros-only forums saying I wonder.
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On November 09 2012 02:39 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. lol. You're obviously not GM on Korean server. Show some credentials or don't mention it at all.
His name has to be the most ironic thing I've ever seen....
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EPT
