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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 08 2012 23:55 Tuczniak wrote: I meant "who can click 20 times in shorter time". It's obvious that talking about match with players with 10apm and 200apm is pointless 20 blink stalkers v 20 blink stalkers, you honestly believe that "who can click 20 times in shorter time" won't make a difference? | ||
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SXGCoil
United States341 Posts
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
On November 08 2012 23:53 vthree wrote: Most people are not asking for a straight removal of the infestor or fungal. We would just like to make it less effective. Amulet was nerfed for HTs and people still build them. Bunkers and rax were nerfed and they are still used. I know, and I'm the first in the list who wants to have more options to play into mid/late game aside from infestors. But if you want to win, you need them. Or just heavily outplay your opponent. The problem is, how to twitch the infestor without breaking the game MUs, since right now you need the infestor to engage terran and protoss armies. Without FG, it is impossible to engage terran marine tank, cost efficiently, and since today terran macro is almost in par with zerg macro, is not like you can rely in mutas sniping tanks . Same for the Blink stalker blob, or the dreaded collosus / void ray ball. I was really happy with the original FG, with 30 damage over 8 secs and root. Perfect positional and crowd control spell. But I just died to protoss deathballs (and the inmortal had 5 range then...) and it was nearly impossible to deal with them, since any kind of AA the zerg had desintegrate to collosus AoE (Hidra) or Voids (Corruptor) or Stalkers (Mutas), so you need AoE to deal with it. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. | ||
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Latty
Germany567 Posts
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. They were buffed, the fungal DPS was doubled against armored targets. Before the buff, fungal damage was a nice thing, but secondary. The root was the main objective of the spell. I saw a lot of stalkers or terran bio just melting lings/ blings because even if they were root, the damage was slow, and they could keep firing for more time. Now it is also a DPS spell, but it is because +2 blink timings and void/colo ball forced them to buff the only AoE zerg has (aside from banelings) | ||
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote: You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. The problem is that (mediocre) players are just streaming to the strategy they see as the strongest. So while we saw a good mixture of muta play vs infestor play back then, nowadays the mutaplay diminished and we see Infestors everywhere. This is just as boring as MMM all the time. It is also a bit strange to see Zerg, who have the best production capacities until the very late game, have the arguably best late game composition. It just doesn't add up nicely. And this breaks way. | ||
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Fik-cz
Czech Republic43 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:17 Jetaap wrote: Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible. Even winrates mean nothing when you have matchmaking system, witch force it to be 45-55%. For me, as a terran player i thing problem with infestors is that they are really good against bio and mech. They shud be good vs bio and ok vs mech or ok vs Bio and good vs mech. atm, they kind of counter everything. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly. How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless... | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. yes we need more emphasis on spells like psy storm They make for great games. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:19 vthree wrote: How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless... Or maybe play a midgame with muta/ling as before and try to get an advantage? E: at least ZvT | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote: I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Why do you think terrans are choosing to do the greedy 3 OC build? Because any aggressive besides maybe all ins with SCV pulls have also 0 chance of working. The only early Zerg loses (before 3 base for both sides) is the 11-11 with SCV pull or a totally messed up hellion defends which leads to quick gg. Queens and plus a small ground army will how any 2 base pressure. You don't even see zergs make spines anymore against bio play. So I stand by my statements that zergs are expanding and teching much more quickly. If you look at the infestation pit and hive timings compare to the beginning of the early, you will see this. This is also why muta play has fallen out of favor. As for PvZ , the queen made scouting harder for Protoss and overlord speed made scouting easier for Zerg. Although the effect is smaller. We now rarely see those +1 zealot timings, early Protoss timings anymore. It is all the sentry immortal or the 3 base pre hive. Maps also play a pretty important role. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote: I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote: I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'. | ||
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ETisME
12632 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:19 vthree wrote: How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless... terran without barracks will be similar to zerg not having zerglings. medivac would be a better unit to use. infestors were already nerfed, np got nerfed and its movement speed got nerfed, fungal was nerfed in patch 1.3.3 and 1.4 I find it funny that no one complained about infestors much when ghost pretty much countered all T3 zerg units with snipe and after the nerf, no terran gets ghost against zerg and now you say "a slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless..."? lol the problem doesn't lie in infestors, the problem is how fast zerg can get the ball out and then can grow its size faster than opponent can catchup the 2011 tvz we saw tonnes of all ins from zerg going roach ling baneling bust due to how greedy terran can be played and how difficult it was to scout an all in from terran (mass blueflame hellions; 2 port banshee; marauder hellion etc) and that was balanced? Getting roaches delayed the 3rd and loses to an earlier siege tank marine push often the mvp vs life final show how even after the buffs, terran can have such diverse opening even if the initial buildings were the same and losing to mass blue flame hellions. | ||
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0x64
Finland4601 Posts
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote: Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
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Destroyr
Germany299 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:17 Hryul wrote: The problem is that (mediocre) players are just streaming to the strategy they see as the strongest. So while we saw a good mixture of muta play vs infestor play back then, nowadays the mutaplay diminished and we see Infestors everywhere. This is just as boring as MMM all the time. It is also a bit strange to see Zerg, who have the best production capacities until the very late game, have the arguably best late game composition. It just doesn't add up nicely. And this breaks way. Good points. It is strange that blizzard denies the months of infestor dominance we have seen before. I personally feel in the scrappy range i am playing the infestor is the most powerfull unit. And if i see a poor toss going in GSL carrier... vs infestor it is redundant. Fungal and infested terrans can dominate whole games and the did this already month before on every level. It is just that SC 2 is complex enough that you can also mess this up but if it comes to a situation your infestor can make itself count huge in every situation you are not screwing around with your army. For a pro with good control this is an easy task. | ||
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