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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed.
Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. This is if Terran goes all in. And nothing is stopping the Zerg from going 4 to 6 Queens anyways, pre-patch.
On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote:
so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air.
Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with.
Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
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On November 09 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'.
But before the range buff, those pushes were almost a win push if the terran executed the contain properly, and the zerg was in disadvantadge all the time.
Now it could be defended, but it can also win the game for the terran if the execusion is good and the zerg doesn't defend well
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On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote:
so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
are you kidding me? theres no way cracklings can go up against the mass amount of bio that would all of a sudden be super-viable without infestors.
also, theres a reason as to why people dont use roaches in that position, theres not enough supply for it. the upgrades makes them fall behind and im sorry but in what universe would ~40 supply worth of roaches counter blinkstalkers / colo / archons and/or storms?
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In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved.
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On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote:
so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
PvZ late game without infestors is a Collo Void ray fest. Just 4 or 6 voidrays, 4 colos and stalkers can shut down any zerg composition with ease if the zerg don't mix infestors.
And that without the momma ship...
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On November 09 2012 00:53 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote:
so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles... PvZ late game without infestors is a Collo Void ray fest. Just 4 or 6 voidrays, 4 colos and stalkers can shut down any zerg composition with ease if the zerg don't mix infestors. And that without the momma ship...
Well either way, let's get back on point. That is Dustin Browder is somewhat acknowledging the problem with Winfestors..
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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed.
1) Failing to have a partial Evolution Chamber/Queen/Spine wall is more than “a single missclick” but whatever.
2) Zerg was never behind in economy in the first few minuts of the game against Reactor Hellion expands, don't know what you're talking about. Standard benchmarch was like 45 drones to 29 SCVs at 7'30. With Reactor Hellion triple OC Terran had a slight econ advantage for some time but the Mutalisk follow-up easily allowed Zerg to even things up because you were free to fully saturate your third while harassing a Terran stretched on three bases.
3) As stated above Marines/Tanks pushes were no more used because they were totally figured out. They were a thing of the past, really.
4) Yeah, in 2011.
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Infestor is ridiculous atm but it needs to remain strong for z to stay competitive. I think slow and an IT damage nerf along with unit size increase would do the trick. Also, ghosts should go back to costing gas and get a buff to snipe damage.
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Wow the zergs are so overreacting. Its not as if the thread is about removing infestors completely or making it absolutely not viable. Get a grip.
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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed.
1) so it's alright that terran can lose to a single misclick (stacking vikings for one second), but not for zerg?
2) zerg is only behind in eco while the contain is happening. I would always see as soon as that contain is broken, with an inbase macro hatch, for the zerg to then shoot up another 20 drones and a hatchery very quickly, putting them back in the lead. They just had their 5-6 gases slower, which meant they couldn't straight tech to infestors without getting some other defensive units out.
3/4) How did the winrate stay so close to 50% when terran could either be superfar ahead or easily win the game from the hellion harass?
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On November 09 2012 00:51 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote:
I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'. But before the range buff, those pushes were almost a win push if the terran executed the contain properly, and the zerg was in disadvantadge all the time. Now it could be defended, but it can also win the game for the terran if the execusion is good and the zerg doesn't defend well
Oh, I never said the queen patch wasn't needed to stablize the early mid game in ZvT as you example shows. But by 'balancing' this early mid game, it made getting to the infestor stage much faster and zergs army becomes much much stronger at this stage.
I am responding to the people that saying that since infestors haven't changed in over 1 year, then claiming that it is OP now is not valid. What I am saying is that changes of maps, other units can lead to another unit being powerful/overpower.
Take the mass BCs. I think mass BCs with ghosts to EMP them so they cannot be feedback is probably even harder to deal with for Protoss compare to BL/infestor. Imagine if Mvp's BCs didn't stack up to get vortex by Squirtle. However, getting that army is so hard that it isn't really an issue. But if say terrans were somehow able to tech from marine medivacs into BCs pretty easily, I am sure there would be calls to nerf it.
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On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote:
In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved.
How do terrans get A LOT of ghosts or tanks out before BLs? If it was that easy, why are pro Korean terrans struggling in the match up?
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On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote:
In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. .
1) If you mass Tanks against Zerg you're in a horrible spot when he gets Broodlords.
2) If you mass Ghosts it has no effect since they're terrible at dealing with BL/Infests. Think Terrans didn't try mass Ghosts since Snipe nerf ? Think again.
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On November 09 2012 01:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote:
In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved. How do terrans get A LOT of ghosts or tanks out before BLs? If it was that easy, why are pro Korean terrans struggling in the match up?
Because he forgot to mention that if you have a lot of ghosts and tanks, you don't have many vikings for BLs, which means you lose. If you have lots of vikings and a lot of ghosts, then you don't have enough tanks or maurders for the ultras, so you lose. If you go lots of tanks and vikings, then maybe if you get lucky you can clean up the BLs while the tanks zone out the infestors. Which explains why people don't get a lot of ghosts. I've seen plenty of games where getting ghosts have actually lost the game, because they do zero damage because they get fungaled and BL'd to death, leaving you with 5 less vikings when the BLs and corruptors roll in. To fight that zerg army you need 100% supply efficiency. You can't waste 6 supply, you needed those last 3 vikings, or you have 3 too many vikings, then you needed those to be 3 maurders instead when the remax of ultras hit. You can't waste supply on ghosts when they are unlikely to do damage, and they eat up any chance you have of combating the zerg army.
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Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more?
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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more?
And you really think that Protoss don't know that Carriers/Mothership/Archons/Storm is their end game dream composition? You really think that we Terrans don't know that BCs/Vikings/Ravens are our end game dream composition? But what good to us is that knowledge when Zergs get their end game dream composition between the 15' and the 20' mark while you need 5-10 minuts to get yours, trying to survive with inferior armies meanwhile, to see said dream composition still gets trashed by Fungals + dozens and dozens of IT eggs if you eventually manage to build it?
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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote:
Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units.
NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly.
I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower.
Need I say more?
The problem is the end game happens so fast with zegs explosive economy. When you say midgame, you mean you are doing a prehive timing. If you don't hit that timing, I guarentee no matter what army you were able to produce, no matter how greedy you were in getting that army, you will lose. Try beating zerg without using your prehive timing. Try getting any army in the game you want. Try winning without effectively killing zerg before BLs (with your timing), and you will see why people compain.
I too am pretty good against zergs, because I am good at 2-base all ins, and on ladder where you rarely meet the same person twice, it is hard to stop. That doesn't mean I should say infestors/BLs aren't a problem guys, because you should just do an allin. The problem is good players figure out the allins, the timings, and you are left with having to contend with an unkillable army. And every game should not boil down to: which 2-base allin, or 3 base timing will protoss do to kill or severely cripple zerg.
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On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost?  Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard.
to address some different whines posted by users:
1. amulet was nerfed cus high templar can be warped anywhere w a pylon field
2. u cant compare infestors to sentries because infestors are a higher tech and i believe they cost more as well
3. of course broodlords + infestors should beat ghosts/templar, a combination unit should be able to beat casters alone
4. although mass infestors alone are really good, they still do need support for actual battles. burrowed infestors with IT are really good at harass but so are ghosts/templars. nukes and storm drops are really effective but most of the whiners posting here are too noob/lazy to pull it off.
5. infestors can be used in every matchup but so can other units, zerglings, roaches, sentries, marines, stalkers, banshees, medivacs. of course non-zerg units are less massable cus thats how the race works. protoss/terran has different buildings for each unit so its harder to mass one single unit. zerg makes all from hatch and has larvae mechanic.
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors.
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On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors.
Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh?
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On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote:
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh?
So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins?
Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play.
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EPT
