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On August 25 2012 05:35 Sandermatt wrote:
Tanks actually one shot lings, with the first weapon upgrade, no matter how much armor the lings have. Without any armor upgrades on the lings tanks always one shot lings. There is nothing armor upgrades are always ahead therefore tanks cannot one shot.
Yeah I messed up, forgot that vehicle weapons give them more than +1.
And I'm not just saying buff tanks right now. I'm saying buff them in HoTS.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
It is not that tanks are terrible, it is that the vulture lacks in SC2, the vulture made mech possible in BW as we know it.
Sure the tank was nerfed (in damage and supply aswell as cost I believe?, not sure about that).
The fact that SC2 has no vultures and that in general some counters are stronger and more mobile(BLink Stalkers, Collosi, etc).
They are not bad though, at all, just less strong comparitivly I suppose? They are still very strong in their own right
they make a shitty sound now though .
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I play mech all the time in all matchups. Sure they're not as good as they were, especially against protoss without EMP but when you get an very large number, they own.
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Name a protoss unit that is not good vs tanks in some way except sentries and stalkers on movecommand.
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Tanks arent terrible, people are just lazy (like me) and dont like to constantly siege an unsiege and risk getting caught out of position. Vs zerg, I learned that you dont have to get more than +2 attack for tanks because they one shot lings and banelings at that point and they do good damage vs ultras unsieged.
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Since armor upgrades are always ahead of vehicle weapons they do not even 1 shot lings.
+1 tanks do 38 splash damage to light, which is enough to one shot even +3 armor lings actually.
Not that I disagree with your points, but a post that wants to be a demonstration of balance issues should not contain such errors.
Tanks are indeed bad against what they can't kill before doing as much splash on your units than your enemy's, but they are still very strong at controlling space (in TvT especially, and still have good use in TvZ, many people forget that unsieged upgraded tanks do tons of dps too).
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Marines are good against everything in SC2... complementing them with a massively powerful, unassaultable siege tank would just be stupidly strong.
Tanks are fine, and they are perfect for dealing with the marine's only true enemy (the baneling). Sorry, but not every terran unit can be dominant against 90% of the units in the game.
They're hard enough to deal with as zerg, if you get more than a couple of them then zerg is very lucky if he breaks even when defending himself against an army with tanks in it. It's only the lategame with broodlords when an actual solid counter to tanks appears.
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Dont protoss shields only receive 80% damage from splash damage or something like that? If true then maybe fixing that would increase tank use in TvP hugely.
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On August 25 2012 05:31 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 05:26 Buchan wrote:If Terran has 10+ siege tanks spread and sieged in one area (plus a bunch of other units) it should be very difficult for Zerg to break that area with just ground units without having a lot of ultras. But I've seen over and over again where Zerg launches some infested terrans to soak up the first tank blasts and then bring in the ultras and lings and before you know it the zerglings are on top of the tanks and they are splashing on themselves. "Zerg shouldn't be able to break siege lines without ultras." "I have 10+ tanks but zerg beats it with lings, infestors, and ultralisks, with adequte positioning and micro on his part." I don't see the problem. And to think that tanks aren't good against lings or hydras? Or infestors if you target fire? Are you joking? Not to mention for each tank you should have like 12 marines, which are good against everything if spread. Tanks are the last thing you should complain about. Yeah tanks are good against hydras and infestors but you never see hydras in TvZ.
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What if you uped their damage versus shields (except for Immortal Hardened Shield)?
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On August 25 2012 05:41 Buchan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 05:31 PeanutsNJam wrote:On August 25 2012 05:26 Buchan wrote:If Terran has 10+ siege tanks spread and sieged in one area (plus a bunch of other units) it should be very difficult for Zerg to break that area with just ground units without having a lot of ultras. But I've seen over and over again where Zerg launches some infested terrans to soak up the first tank blasts and then bring in the ultras and lings and before you know it the zerglings are on top of the tanks and they are splashing on themselves. "Zerg shouldn't be able to break siege lines without ultras." "I have 10+ tanks but zerg beats it with lings, infestors, and ultralisks, with adequte positioning and micro on his part." I don't see the problem. And to think that tanks aren't good against lings or hydras? Or infestors if you target fire? Are you joking? Not to mention for each tank you should have like 12 marines, which are good against everything if spread. Tanks are the last thing you should complain about. Yeah tanks are good against hydras and infestors but you never see hydras in TvZ.
you hardly see hydras anywhere :p
i kinda laughed at op's comment about tanks and brood lords lol. i think siege tanks are really great and have no complaints about it. it's supposed to be a support unit any way and not as the main damage dealer in the game.
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I'm not sure if this guy is trollin or being serious, but I would suggest playing a few games as Zerg to see how tanks actually fair in terms of being positioned well
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Is that you avilo, on a smurf account?
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Okay I pretty much erased the part about Zerg since I was wrong about some things and tanks are okay against Zerg. The main point was tanks being terrible against Protoss and making mech viable against Protoss in HoTS should be done through buffing tanks a bit and not implementing some 1a mech marauder.
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Who cares that they one-shot lings. The splash is more relevant and in small numbers tanks do not provide adequate defense against zerglings. They're honestly still widely used and have their place in every match-up, but I wish they were a little bit stronger, just because I enjoy position-based tactics.
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To simplify things, tanks are bad because:
A - Dustin Browder did not understand what made BW exciting to watch.
B - The game was balanced on microscopic horrible maps like Steppes of War
In a nutshell, BW's formula was: tanks are ridiculously imba, how can you overcome that to win?
DB didn't get this, so he has been on an anti-tank crusade for the last 3 years. What he doesn't understand is that noob players (like me) don't care about imba stuff the other guy has so much as get excited about imba terran stuff.
So instead of keeping their strength, Browder nerved them to impotence in almost every way possible. EG:
Supply nerf
Gas cost nerf
General Damage nerf
Splash Damage nerf
Then he made them better in siege than out so they would be a more shallow unit to use.
Then he made Marauders, Thors, Graviton beam, Immortals, and in case that wasn't enough he added Viper abduct, Warhounds, etc.
All this in the name of saving Starcraft from tanks because he thinks nobody liked them or found them exciting as a player or spectator. Sad, isn't it?
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On August 25 2012 05:41 Buchan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 05:31 PeanutsNJam wrote:On August 25 2012 05:26 Buchan wrote:If Terran has 10+ siege tanks spread and sieged in one area (plus a bunch of other units) it should be very difficult for Zerg to break that area with just ground units without having a lot of ultras. But I've seen over and over again where Zerg launches some infested terrans to soak up the first tank blasts and then bring in the ultras and lings and before you know it the zerglings are on top of the tanks and they are splashing on themselves. "Zerg shouldn't be able to break siege lines without ultras." "I have 10+ tanks but zerg beats it with lings, infestors, and ultralisks, with adequte positioning and micro on his part." I don't see the problem. And to think that tanks aren't good against lings or hydras? Or infestors if you target fire? Are you joking? Not to mention for each tank you should have like 12 marines, which are good against everything if spread. Tanks are the last thing you should complain about. Yeah tanks are good against hydras and infestors but you never see hydras in TvZ.
Tanks are good against banelings, infestors, roaches, hydras and somewhat support fire against lings/ultrase.
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tanks have incredible potency in tvz and are essential in tvt - buffing them in any way would severely dumb down tvt. they even have a few strong timings in tvp so they are not terrible like (carriers/hydralisks/reapers)
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they're bad vs protoss because they don't do 70 damage, don't have spider mine support, and protoss shields don't take full damage from all damage types.
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On August 25 2012 05:46 0neder wrote:
To simplify things, tanks are bad because:
A - Dustin Browder did not understand what made BW exciting to watch.
B - The game was balanced on microscopic horrible maps like Steppes of War
In a nutshell, BW's formula was: tanks are ridiculously imba, how can you overcome that to win?
DB didn't get this, so he has been on an anti-tank crusade for the last 3 years. What he doesn't understand is that noob players (like me) don't care about imba stuff the other guy has so much as get excited about imba terran stuff.
So instead of keeping their strength, Browder nerved them to impotence in almost every way possible. EG:
Supply nerf
Gas cost nerf
General Damage nerf
Splash Damage nerf
Then he made them better in siege than out so they would be a more shallow unit to use.
Then he made Marauders, Thors, Graviton beam, Immortals, and in case that wasn't enough he added Viper abduct, Warhounds, etc.
All this in the name of saving Starcraft from tanks because he thinks nobody liked them or found them exciting as a player or spectator. Sad, isn't it?
Tanks are used all the time in TvZ and TvT and early game TvP. A unit that is used so often is not underpowered.
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EPT
