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Why are Tanks so bad in SC2? - Page 6

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GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 21:31:42
August 24 2012 21:31 GMT
#101
On August 25 2012 06:24 yawnoC wrote:
I really wish Smart AI firing wasn't in the game for some reason...


So we can get 70dmg back plz! It makes me sad that 7 tanks can't 1 shot a Collosus.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 24 2012 21:32 GMT
#102
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
koppik
Profile Joined April 2010
United States676 Posts
August 24 2012 21:32 GMT
#103
Tanks in SC2 definitely feel weaker and generally just more frail, especially when you factor in the cost. They're still an amazing unit, though.

I miss the days of 60-damage siege tanks on Steppes of War.
SilSol
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden2744 Posts
August 24 2012 21:32 GMT
#104
I don't think that tanks is a bad unit at all xd
http://fragbite.se/user/117868/silsol since 2006 http://www.reddit.com/u/silsol77
pileopoop
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada317 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 21:35:59
August 24 2012 21:35 GMT
#105
Tanks were nerfed because if you have lets say 10 lings spread out out of vision of 10 tanks in sc2 then you scan and the tanks will all target a separate ling. There is no overlap. In Starcraft 1 the tanks would shoot the closest ling no matter if 9 other tanks already shot it. Blizzard kept saying there is no smart fire and people were complaining about this smart fire. They say they can't fix it because there is 0 delay from the shot being fire to the shot landing. They said they couldn't put a 10ms delay so shots could overlap.
Buchan
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada184 Posts
August 24 2012 21:36 GMT
#106
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.
1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
August 24 2012 21:36 GMT
#107
Hey guys, I know I see tanks all the time, but why can't they kill carriers? I mean that cannon is already aimed toward the sky, I just really feel like they'd be more useful if they could kill air too.

I will say they're not all that useful vs protoss, but there are even still Code S players that use them from time to time in PvT, and they are great in TvT and ZvT. Especially ZvT with proper focus firing, they just demonlish any mid-game aggression.

Also props to Zandar for his re-writing of the OP with Hydras
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 21:38:07
August 24 2012 21:37 GMT
#108
On August 25 2012 06:36 Buchan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.

well, if it is not about balance, then it is a design suggestion. Those belong to Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Or do you want to just hear the reasons why some people think tanks are bad? (what they aren't. they are just not Broodwar "mass this unit to win" like)
NoGasfOu
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1117 Posts
August 24 2012 21:39 GMT
#109
They just need to get rid of friendly splash damage from tanks and everything will be solved.
Tassadar/TheBest/Jjakji/Rain(terran)/Heart
Buchan
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada184 Posts
August 24 2012 21:39 GMT
#110
On August 25 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 06:36 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.

well, if it is not about balance, then it is a design suggestion. Those belong to Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Or do you want to just hear the reasons why some people think tanks are bad?
Do you even read your own post? "well, if it is not about balance [...] those belong to: Designated Balance Discussion Thread"

what
kochanfe
Profile Joined July 2011
Micronesia1338 Posts
August 24 2012 21:40 GMT
#111
I'm not sure this guy knows a whole lot about sc2...
"The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." - Lao Tzu
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 24 2012 21:41 GMT
#112
On August 25 2012 06:39 Buchan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:36 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.

well, if it is not about balance, then it is a design suggestion. Those belong to Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Or do you want to just hear the reasons why some people think tanks are bad?
Do you even read your own post? "well, if it is not about balance [...] those belong to: Designated Balance Discussion Thread"

what

Yeah, cutting the part that says why it should be there is really clever... lol.
Design suggestions belong in the DBDT
Buchan
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada184 Posts
August 24 2012 21:43 GMT
#113
On August 25 2012 06:41 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 06:39 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:36 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.

well, if it is not about balance, then it is a design suggestion. Those belong to Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Or do you want to just hear the reasons why some people think tanks are bad?
Do you even read your own post? "well, if it is not about balance [...] those belong to: Designated Balance Discussion Thread"

what

Yeah, cutting the part that says why it should be there is really clever... lol.
Design suggestions belong in the DBDT
So the only threads allowed on the SC2 forum are drama threads? We're not allowed to actually talk about the game?
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
August 24 2012 21:47 GMT
#114
On August 25 2012 05:56 ShakAttaK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 05:53 Aquila- wrote:
That reminds me of that one GSL game on entombed where the terran had a contain with tanks and bunkers and the protoss just amoved his chargelots into that, crushed it and won the game. The point of tanks are that you can create an area where the opponent cannot attack, thus allowing you to control the space. Protoss is not supposed to attack into 5+ already sieged tanks and come out ahead, instead attack where the tanks are not. But sadly the opposite is the case, tanks are absolutely trash against everything except stalkers and sentries, and as mentioned even not that great against zerg. The only matchup where they are strong and also annoying is TvT...

They are better vs Armored , so the protoss making units that are beefy with shield ( zealots) to break the contain makes sense . Tanks shouldn't be able to smash everything but t3 ground units.

Of course they should, that was what made them so fun in BW. A siege line was practically impossible to fight head on with any ground army, forcing players to get more creative in their engagements and abuse the near total immobility of tanks.


If I siege up 15 tanks in a decent position, any trade should be horrifyingly cost-inefficient for whoever attacks into it. But every Protoss unit except sentries and stalkers is amazingly effective against tanks.
EggYsc2
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
620 Posts
August 24 2012 21:49 GMT
#115
im sorry if you think that tanks are bad
then you must not be very good yourself.

The game is balanced 98-99% and tanks are not part of the problem
Elvin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
149 Posts
August 24 2012 21:49 GMT
#116
Tanks are weak because Blizzard decided to balance the unit around maps like steppes of war and other ultra small maps.
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 21:51:44
August 24 2012 21:50 GMT
#117
On August 25 2012 06:43 Buchan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 06:41 Big J wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:39 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:36 Buchan wrote:
On August 25 2012 06:32 Big J wrote:
Hm... so tanks are:
-) one of the two units in TvT around which you can build a strategy (the other one being the marine)
-) basically being played in every TvZ
-) not part of the standard TvP, but one of the main ingridients in one of the best TvP rushes (1-1-1)

Seems like a unit that is being used a ton, but I'm sure it sucks pretty hard if you say so...
\thread, this is nothing but a balance whine --> Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Yes tanks are good in TvT, yes tanks are good against zerg until late game, yes tanks are basically never used in TvP since no one 1-1-1's anymore.

My post has nothing to do with balance whining and I've said multiple times that I think the game is balanced well right now.

well, if it is not about balance, then it is a design suggestion. Those belong to Designated Balance Discussion Thread
Or do you want to just hear the reasons why some people think tanks are bad?
Do you even read your own post? "well, if it is not about balance [...] those belong to: Designated Balance Discussion Thread"

what

Yeah, cutting the part that says why it should be there is really clever... lol.
Design suggestions belong in the DBDT
So the only threads allowed on the SC2 forum are drama threads? We're not allowed to actually talk about the game?


No people should discuss tactics, news, tournaments, or info about progamers. You've made a horrible OP that seems like whine to me. You say tanks are horrible in TvP yet Byun got far last GSL by using tank+marine against protoss. He kinda defeated himself against Seed by not controlling his army well enough.

Also you suggest some changes but never go into details nor do you explain your points, i'm guessing this thread won't live long.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 21:53:19
August 24 2012 21:51 GMT
#118
in bw you didnt run into siege line without a good plan, you also didn't just simply a-move, you micro who gets hit and how to get near the tanks (shuttle, defiler, scv bait, etc. dmatrix). in sc2, blizzard wants you to overcome tanks with a-move, so the importance was put on counters instead of micro. imo.

blizzard doesn't understand good micro. see colossus, fungal, ff, battle hellion, warhound, tempest, etc.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
August 24 2012 21:52 GMT
#119
The key thing here is that in BW it went like this:

immobile army > mobile army in terms of cost efficiency

In SC2 it's changed to

micro-intensive, spell-caster intensive army > non-micro non-spellcaster army in terms of cost efficiency.

Dustin Browder and David Kim have pretty much stated they want the latter to be the dominant philosophy for SC2. Their core belief is that audiences like to watch micro-intensive spell-caster intensive fights more than positional fights.

Arguing otherwise with them is like arguing a evolution with a creationist--it's unproductive because their beliefs are built on not logic but faith.

The only response we can really do would be to boycott purchases of HotS. Sad, but true.
Что?
Kanaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark658 Posts
August 24 2012 21:52 GMT
#120
I thought about what would happen if they reversed the tank dmg and upg dmg back to before 1.1, but removed the smart attack.
For those who don't know what smart attack is, it's basicly the AI doing so they wont overkill on units, etc. 10 tanks shooting the same ling.
That would require good tank lines, nicely spread out, and probably make it somehow usefull in TvP again.
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