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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out.
This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore.
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I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post
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I think the fact that the shooter is still alive and will stand trial and his case pleaded will do volumes to step up anti bullyign campaigns... if it is in fact related to bullying... not often are shooters in these situations apprehended alive...
Sad none the less considering my girlfriend is a teacher and I just mentioned the other day in conversation that it was nice having a fairly calm year on the school shooting front since it has been a phenomenon as of late.
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Everyone please read: Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings; Columbine; The Stranger Beside Me; Murder Machine; The Night Stalker; In Cold Blood; Helter Skelter; Most Evil; The Profiler.
Get educated on this shit before you start spouting off, i'm literally embarassed for most of you.
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On February 28 2012 06:47 kellenr wrote:
Everyone please read: Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings; Columbine; The Stranger Beside Me; Murder Machine; The Night Stalker; In Cold Blood; Helter Skelter; Most Evil; The Profiler.
Get educated on this shit before you start spouting off, i'm literally embarassed for most of you.
Also: Give a boy a gun. Had to it read that one in my english class at school, ironically enough. But the book is as good as it is scary.
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On February 28 2012 06:42 relyt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out. This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore.
Well there's your reason. Imagine they wouldn't be reprimanded for bullying their colleagues or coworkers. Or imagine anyone would think it was cool. They'd keep doing it.
They're still assholes. The circumstances just changed.
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On February 28 2012 06:49 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:42 relyt wrote:On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out. This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore. Well there's your reason. Imagine they wouldn't be reprimanded for bullying their colleagues or coworkers. Or imagine anyone would think it'd be cool. They'd keep doing it. They're still assholes. The circumstances just changed.
Couldn't agree more with this, I see it all the time from bullies I grew up struggling against. :/
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On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e.
I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc.
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On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
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Children are bad because parents are bad. That is my motto and how I keep my son straight.
It's too bad this happened. As some already mentioned I don't buy in to the whole bully thing. There's probably more to it. If it was bullying then the bully's parents probably gave him a disfunctional home life, where I assume they were either physically or emotionally abusive. In the case of the bullied he was not taught how to communicate properly by his parents, probably because they weren't there for him.
If it was something else like drugs or girlfriend jealousy or what not, then I'd blame the parents there too.
I make a lot of assumptions and didn't read all 8 pages, only the OP and the last page so please don't flame me if I missed something inbetween.
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On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc.
Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly.
On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig.
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On February 28 2012 06:57 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc. Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly. On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig. Premeditated murder is on the extreme side of the scale, but my point was more connected to your 2nd paragraph. As a bully, you should consider the possibility that your victim is going to snap if you keep it up for a long time, it's not all fun and games.
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It's really shitty when things come to a point like this that people are pushed to violence to resolve it. Some kids got nothing better to do but to bully and no one teaches them otherwise, and people ask why things like this happen.
On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
He's being sarcastic lol.
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1) The problem of those cases is that the bullied only has two choices: tolerate the bullying and do nothing or severely hurt the aggressors by bringing up heavier machinery and fight the "unfair" fight (kinda ironic). When nobody's helping, there's nothing between not reacting at all and the ultima ratio that he used. It's the tragedy of those situations: Either the bullied sustains the psychological torture until the bullies get bored or they react. And when they react, we see what happens.
2) Why is nobody speaking of the true culprits' responsability: The parents'? A bullied child needs support first and foremost from his parents. And a bully is quite frankly the outcome of a failed ubringing from one's parents. Blame the schools and teachers, yeah, but they're not the ones spending the majority of the time with the pupils (especially not individually). Blame the bully, yeah, obviously, but he's subject to education. You are what you are made of (your genes) and what you get taught (parents>>>>school). That's where the problem lies.
oh, @NoSlack, just saw your post. Glad you agree.
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On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
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On February 28 2012 06:57 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc. Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly. On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig.
Well they should probably be expecting some form of consequence. With all these shootings nowadays you'd think bullies would wise up. I feel like these shooting sprees indicate both severe bullying and some psychological problems on part of the shooter. It's pretty crazy to go from living day to day to shooting up a school, so there must have been a pretty bad mix of causes for that to happen.
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On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... First of all source please.
2nd of all, if that's the case, it was probably the last straw that broke the camels back for TJ and sped up the process of him snapping, however with the bullying it would have happened anyways eventually.
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On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
Russel did not die, the kid who was fatally shot is named Danny. Russel was one of the victims though, yes(and is in critical condition, so this post may need to be edited in the unfortunate event of his passing).
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On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
Since you obviously have so much more information than all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks and not be publicly villified... Prove me wrong?
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EPT
