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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 07:33 Sidan3 wrote:
for some reason, some people here are commenting on how the kid that got bullied "couldnt handle his own problems" or "overreacting to jerks" or something simular. being bullied at school isn´t just something that happends to you and nothing more. i was bullied and it fucking tore me appart, i had no friends, no self-esteem and almost socially retarded. That is not something u get over instantly and it is still effecting me today and im gona be scarred after that for quite some time. Bullying in schools is completely misunderstood or ignored, no one does anything about it and this is how it ends. i dont feel sorry for any1 but the poor kid who was bullied because even he was "only" bullied, they might have fucked up his whole life by "only bullying" him or just being jerks. It isnt like that and the sooner people realize that, the sooner something MIGHT be done about this fucking thing. Bullying is something really serious and I feel for you, it's unfortunate that so many people in thread downplay it to just people being jerks and everything going to be alright, fuck that.
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I wonder how many school shootings it will take before bullies take a second thought to their actions, if not out of a realization of the pain they are causing others, at least out of a selfish desire for their own safety.
Thankfully I was never bullied in school. But I still see how it can become an obsession for someone until it consumes and perverts their thinking. Some of these breakdowns in society can be largely attributed to the breakdown in good parenting. It's a cycle which often reinforces itself.
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On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification.
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was.
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On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:
No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever?
I found someone who said just that.
On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:
Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on.
justify, v: to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right.
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On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy?
Completely agree with your first post. Without knowing how severe the bullying was it's impossible to condemn the school for this. The school is at fault to the extent that they may have been too lenient with the bullies (we can't really confirm or deny), but nowhere near at fault to the extent that they allowed a situation to spiral into murder. This would presume murder is an obvious and likely outcome of bullying. It isn't. I'd say society is to blame more than the school.
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I'm curious as to if the gunmen had committed suicide and cited the bullies as the reason; would there be charges against the bullies?
I think there needs to be a clarification as to what bullying means. I've had people pick on me, but when I think of bullying I think of the kid in high school that a certain group systematically targeted daily.
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On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Fuck that, bullying is easily preventable in school but nobody's doing anything about it which is the main culprit. Teenagers in school with their puberty hormones and all that stuff is way more fragile then a stable adult dealing with "jerks."
Wit? Clearly the guy as many other's who can't handle the bullying anymore have come to their wit's end.
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How exactly did he get the guns? Even if I wanted to I wouldn't know where to even start looking to get a gun, legal or not.
edit: rhetorical question.
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On February 28 2012 07:39 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:
No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I found someone who said just that. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:
Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. justify, v: to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right. This isn't my opinion though, I've said many times in this thread that I don't condone shooting as it was the wrong thing to do. I was saying there that for guys like TJ the justification for shooting is being bullied, and obviously as a last resort I mean like people don't go around shooting after being bullied for 1 week it's a long process where they finally snap and they feel like the only way out is with the gun.
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On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end.
Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
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On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was.
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open.
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On February 28 2012 07:41 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Fuck that, bullying is easily preventable in school but nobody's doing anything about it which is the main culprit. Teenagers in school with their puberty hormones and all that stuff is way more fragile then a stable adult dealing with "jerks." Wit? Clearly the guy as many other's who can't handle the bullying anymore have come to their wit's end.
That's simply not true. Firstly, bullying is very difficult to prevent and control. Secondly, to say nobody cares about bullying is kind of a distortion. There are numerous people and groups who are working very hard to help eliminate bullying from schools/teams.
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On February 28 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
I'd say society is to blame more than the school.
To me, this is the same thing as saying "no one is to blame." You have to explicitly state who is responsible for this type of thing, or no one is. Clearly a school should deal with bullying, but the real question is how parents could raise a child that would commit these sorts of crimes.
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On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech..
Thing is, it's not the witty guys or those who know an elegant way out of a tricky situation that get bullied.
On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?
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I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
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Anytime before 8:00 AM is too early to be at school.
Lesson learned : Always be late.
User was warned for this post
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On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
Smaller class sizes are not always viable, due to lack of funding, too many kids, etc. And the counseling is an awful idea. Some of us don't want the government controlling every part of our lives.
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On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information.
Sounds costly, but reasonable. Those are some aspects that need to change. But I'd like to add that teachers need to get some authority back. Normally, when there's a case of bullying being reported to a teacher and it proves to be substantiated, they have a very small margin to act. Their power is limited to talking to the parents and maybe advising them but they don't have the "moral education" prerogatives they need to intervene directly onto the child. And if the parents simply don't care or don't believe their teachers, nothing changes.
Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
Well, because we tend to believe humans have more free will than animals.
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On February 28 2012 07:40 Sofestafont wrote:
I'm curious as to if the gunmen had committed suicide and cited the bullies as the reason; would there be charges against the bullies?
I think there needs to be a clarification as to what bullying means. I've had people pick on me, but when I think of bullying I think of the kid in high school that a certain group systematically targeted daily.
No there wouldn't be charges made against the bullies. Sure it would open the eyes of more people to bullying. People need to realize just how big the bullying problem is, and realize it can't be stopped every time. This time there was the opportunity to avoid it if the shooter actually did tweet he would be doing this.
Its unfortunate that it escalated to this step, but the shooter ended his life today in a different way. While taking the life of one and damaging the lives of everyone involved not only the bullies.
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On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Mm, that's the whole point. Was seven years ago, and it even scares ME to look back on how messed up I was then, but I've made my point: this kind of thing can really, really screw people up, moreso than some people would like to admit.
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