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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
I don't think that there is a particularly right or wrong response to this. There's not very much in the way of leniency in the direction you take, so I won't really say much in terms of that.
However, I do feel some sympathy for the shooter, as I understand the anger and frustration that more or less builds up. I sort of let that out in video games, albeit most of the time in FPSs, but they were just there for just chilling with friends, not so I could shoot some people up.
I do think that every person handles it differently in the end. It's just that some responses are more rational than others, but beyond that, there's nothing.
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Is the message on the kids Facebook page a quote for something or did he make it up himself? For everybody who didn't see the post including it, here's the message again.
"In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you."
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On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it.
Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying.
What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question.
Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
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On February 28 2012 08:46 ODKStevez wrote:
As someone who was bullied for over 16 years in school quite badly, things like this make me feel so lucky. It is a shame because Bullies are 100% at fault but there are reasons for their actions. Victims are just very unlucky and it is a shame that stuff like this has to happen. It's a waste of life. No one deserves to die in this world.
I'd say the person making a plan, acquiring a gun, and then pulling the trigger is more at fault for what happened here. Or are you referring to something else (the bullying/creation of the situation, in which case I'd agree generally).
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On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
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Things like this are so sad. Both these kids lives are over, the dead and the living.
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On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature.
Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your son in the face."
Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for you and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death."
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On February 28 2012 07:55 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Sounds costly, but reasonable. Those are some aspects that need to change. But I'd like to add that teachers need to get some authority back. Normally, when there's a case of bullying being reported to a teacher and it proves to be substantiated, they have a very small margin to act. Their power is limited to talking to the parents and maybe advising them but they don't have the "moral education" prerogatives they need to intervene directly onto the child. And if the parents simply don't care or don't believe their teachers, nothing changes. Show nested quote + Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth? Well, because we tend to believe humans have more free will than animals.
Certainly true. However, parents have a commitment (at least I would hope they do) to teach and discipline their children not to do stupid things like bullying.
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On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
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Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Spekulatius: [/QUOTE]He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?[/QUOTE]
That is similar to a guy who gets convicted of rape, and me saying "its okay, ive been really horny once and was pretty close to raping a woman once"
I think he should refrain from relating that closely to someone who just murdered people. Sounds cheesy, but killing is not the answer. Never.
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On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic.
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On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic.
Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant.
I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back.
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On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
Some people would argue that nothing is reason enough to execute someone (not me). They generally follow it up with some version of the "every life is sacred" platitude. The fact of the matter is that not every life is sacred. But that's getting off the point.
There is no question (in any sane mind) that murder is a greater offense than bullying. But we treat our children like children for a reason; they're not yet of the age where we expect them to act like adults. The adults in the shooter's life should have been able to see this coming, or been able to help him in ways the school system can't. And the adults in the victim's (yes, the victim) life should have been aware of his bullying (if that indeed was the reason for the shooting) and made him understand that the same people you pick on are generally the same people that will come to you first if they go off the deep end.
I was as nerdy as the rest of you in high school, but anybody saying that the shooter is the "victim" here needs to get a reality check. Murder is a few (hundred) steps down from bullying on the morality scale.
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There are too many people who believe that being a, "bully," means you deserve or are even in any way justified in death.
If I killed everyone who was a dick on a regular basis, am I hero? No, I'm a serial killer.
EDIT:
For clarification, I say that everyone here was fucked. Obviously this kid wasn't some hellbent murderer, but you cannot in any way say that he justified or right. His life isn't great, but at least he has one, which, unless you're very suicidal, is incomparably better.
Sucks for everyone involved.
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On February 28 2012 09:38 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Some people would argue that nothing is reason enough to execute someone (not me). They generally follow it up with some version of the "every life is sacred" platitude. The fact of the matter is that not every life is sacred. But that's getting off the point. There is no question (in any sane mind) that murder is a greater offense than bullying. But we treat our children like children for a reason; they're not yet of the age where we expect them to act like adults. The adults in the shooter's life should have been able to see this coming, or been able to help him in ways the school system can't. And the adults in the victim's (yes, the victim) life should have been aware of his bullying (if that indeed was the reason for the shooting) and made him understand that the same people you pick on are generally the same people that will come to you first if they go off the deep end. I was as nerdy as the rest of you in high school, but anybody saying that the shooter is the "victim" here needs to get a reality check. Murder is a few (hundred) steps down from bullying on the morality scale.
Yes!!!! Another sane individual!!! I am not alone!!!!
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On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
Just to address this:
I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter.
There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison:
A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person.
B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more.
Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude.
On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death."
First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy).
And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty.
On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality.
On February 28 2012 09:33 nimbus99 wrote:
Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Spekulatius: He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?[/QUOTE]
That is similar to a guy who gets convicted of rape, and me saying "its okay, ive been really horny once and was pretty close to raping a woman once"
I think he should refrain from relating that closely to someone who just murdered people. Sounds cheesy, but killing is not the answer. Never.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see where anyone said what the shooter did was "okay". The poster you were referring to just voiced his experience that he had similar feelings once. He's now scared of his own thoughts back then (as he posted later on). Neither he nor I are in justifying the shooting.
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Woo kinda scary. This saturday when I was biking home from practice a random thought came to my mind "hey there hasnt been a US school shooting lately, one will probably happen soon" and now I read this..
I thought all schools in US had metal detectors since all these keep happening. I guess not?
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On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty.
Well, honestly, i'm just glad I wouldn't have to lie to her. Sucks that you would.
And I know peoples oppinions are going to be different than mine. It just baffles me that so many people are identifying with the murderer rather than the victims. I assumed (ignorantly, obviously) that pretty much everyone would condemn this, call this dude a horrible person, and express sympathy pretty much exclusively for the victims. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some idiot that feels sorry for a bunch of people that got shot.
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EPT
