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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back.
The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy.
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On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people.
It's funny how you're actually defending his actions in your own weird way.
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On February 28 2012 10:49 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I was lucky to not get bullied in high school. I was a nerd (obviously) but being big keeps people from wanting to mess around. I didn't have many "enemies" I sort of just hung out with whoever I liked and tried to make the best of things. I'd also say to any kids out there its possible to be yourself, love games, be a nerd, and be on good terms with virtually everyone if you do things properly. Try and be as outgoing as you can, have fun, you'd be surprised at how much you might have in common with some of the jocks, some of the skaters, some of the metal heads, some of the stoners, some of the cute popular girls =) You'll never know if you don't try kids!
Yeah my high school had like certain cliques, the "Asian kids" (I'm serious they all sat at one table), smart preppy kids, jocks, average kids, the wannabe gangster kids, and etc. I was always hanging around the Asian kids even though I wasn't Asian. I've always had a love for Korea/Japan haha. Even though I hated high school because of the "social classes" I found that I could release my stress through my love of Street Fighter. I hung around a lot of guys that were really good at Street Fighter in my town. We would play all night and day on the weekends. Hell I even skipped my senior prom to enter a big tournament. It was worth it.
I know I sound like I'm getting off topic, but I'm just agreeing with you that for those that are still in middle school, high school, or even college... find some people that have similar interests. Try to socialize with people that you do fit in with so that they will have your back in case you do get bullied or etc. You don't have to go through school alone.
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While I don't ever wish to die, and don't pretend to consider myself important enough to hand out death sentences (cough justice system  edit: this is in no means an attempt to start a debate about death sentence or anything like that, just a mini tangent, haha), I feel like the entire event was a "got what was coming", just blown way out of proportions.
The bullies did not deserve to be shot. The shooter should not have been bullied.\
That said, the shooter had no right to take their lives away. The bullies had no right to be the assholes they did, especially if he left alone other people who didn't hurt him.
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It's tragic, but atleast this shooter wasn't all cooked up crazy. And bullies dosen't deserve to get shot to death, but it's kinda hard to be all mushy about it.
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If these rumors of bullying are true, then I do not have much sympathy here.
If the shooter is (or was) mentally healthy but was pushed over the edge by the bullies, demonstrating unusually harsh bullying, my sympathy is absolutely zero.
Sure, it is completely tragic, I wish it never had to end this way, I wish both parties got the help they needed but my god I hate bullies. There's something about their unreasoning hatred, something about their stupidity and sheer irrational nature that just makes me view them as less than human.
If the shooter was originally a mentally healthy person, and the bullies just pushed him over the edge, I actually find myself hoping at least one other kid dies in the hospital.
Twisted, I know.
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On February 28 2012 10:43 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people. "Don't be a pussy when it comes to bullying" A beautifully prevalent attitude for our country in particular. Too bad this kid happened to listen... Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:27 Dfgj wrote:On February 28 2012 09:59 Jormundr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. Vengeance = / = morality remember the old saying: "An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law." Or something like that. There's a difference between private vengeance and justice from a legitimate authority. Calling for someone's execution is not the same as expressing a desire to murder them, so it doesn't really fit the 'eye for an eye' saying. So the fact that the government puts on a nice show with a "jury of your peers" makes it morally correct. Good to know.
It has nothing to do with 'jury of your peers' and far more with the fact there's a degree of rationality behind the system that the populace agrees with. Obviously, if this isn't the case (authoritarian state, greater autonomy from the public) this is less valid. The problem with 'eye for an eye' is that it's an endless cycle of retribution: third-party arbitration and provision of justice doesn't follow that.
To deny the fact that public justice has to be treated differently from the acts of individuals is problematic. Theft and fines are not the same, nor is kidnapping and imprisonment, and by extension murder and execution follow the same logic - if there is a legitimate authority in place to issue it.
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This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people.
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On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people.
He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster.
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On February 28 2012 10:56 Silentness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:49 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I was lucky to not get bullied in high school. I was a nerd (obviously) but being big keeps people from wanting to mess around. I didn't have many "enemies" I sort of just hung out with whoever I liked and tried to make the best of things. I'd also say to any kids out there its possible to be yourself, love games, be a nerd, and be on good terms with virtually everyone if you do things properly. Try and be as outgoing as you can, have fun, you'd be surprised at how much you might have in common with some of the jocks, some of the skaters, some of the metal heads, some of the stoners, some of the cute popular girls =) You'll never know if you don't try kids! Yeah my high school had like certain cliques, the "Asian kids" (I'm serious they all sat at one table), smart preppy kids, jocks, average kids, the wannabe gangster kids, and etc. I was always hanging around the Asian kids even though I wasn't Asian. I've always had a love for Korea/Japan haha. Even though I hated high school because of the "social classes" I found that I could release my stress through my love of Street Fighter. I hung around a lot of guys that were really good at Street Fighter in my town. We would play all night and day on the weekends. Hell I even skipped my senior prom to enter a big tournament. It was worth it. I know I sound like I'm getting off topic, but I'm just agreeing with you that for those that are still in middle school, high school, or even college... find some people that have similar interests. Try to socialize with people that you do fit in with so that they will have your back in case you do get bullied or etc. You don't have to go through school alone.
I hear you. I can sort of get along with (almost) anyone. Might not be BFFs but I can get along with them at least. My neighbor in HS was a huge nerd too. We played EQ1 when we got home from school. He played soccer so the soccer kids knew him and knew me by proxy. All the girls thought he was one of the hottest guys in school (even though he never did anything with his "super powers" lol). Everyone sort of equated us as best friends so that helped meeting some people. I hung out with the skater/stoner/trouble makers in Jr. High so I knew that circle in HS. I met some guys in health class because they played Starcraft 1 too. I met some more shy nerdy kids in different stuff, had a class with the hottest girl in school and decided to be more outgoing than usual.
Just try and be outgoing and have fun and I think you'd be surprised how far it'll get you. You never know what that football player does in his free time. Maybe he plays SC2 and you can become friends. Maybe you like sculpture and that cute girl next to you does too. Its crazy how many things branch people together, but you'll never know if you don't try and branch out a bit yourself. Don't go overboard and be fake but try and find some common ground. Maybe if you're getting picked on and that big wrestler in your class is a gamer too you might have a big scary friend to stick up for you!
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On February 28 2012 11:01 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
If these rumors of bullying are true, then I do not have much sympathy here.
If the shooter is (or was) mentally healthy but was pushed over the edge by the bullies, demonstrating unusually harsh bullying, my sympathy is absolutely zero.
Sure, it is completely tragic, I wish it never had to end this way, I wish both parties got the help they needed but my god I hate bullies. There's something about their unreasoning hatred, something about their stupidity and sheer irrational nature that just makes me view them as less than human.
If the shooter was originally a mentally healthy person, and the bullies just pushed him over the edge, I actually find myself hoping at least one other kid dies in the hospital.
Twisted, I know.
are you that insecure?
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I'm just sad that this happened. My sympathy goes to all involved.
I actually heard about this in History class today.
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On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster.
My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself".
If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought.
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On February 28 2012 11:20 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster. My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself". If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought.
He was ready to kill more. Most news reports say that he shot multiple times (missing) at the teacher who then chased him out of the school. He is a monster. And I don't think that the story would be viewed any differently had be been being bullied at the specific moment. Under no circumstances barring a threat to you/other's lives should you ever murder people.
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On February 28 2012 09:58 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. How is it moral to condemn one person to death when you are not objectively effected? Morality is each to his own, you choose your morality, it's not real and shouldn't be touted as "the supreme right" because everyones morality is slightly different depending on how they were raised... Best example is Rambo, religious guy tells rambo he shouldnt have killed the guy, rambo flips his shit, end of the movie the religious guy takes a life (which he swore he'd never do) ^ morality shifted So I don't see how you can say "letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing" when you have a total different definition to morals then I or anyone else.
Let me rephrase it then. I think letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing ever. I'm not saying you have to agree with me. But I am drawing a line in the sand, and it's clear what side we're both on. Honestly, I'd kill that dude myself, and i'm not even kidding. In fact, I wouldn't just kill him, i'd torture him. In my oppinion, if you murder someone, you should be killed in the exact same manner. He slit someone's throat? Slit his. He raped someone? Stick a broom up his ass. The fact that you could defend such a scumbag literally terrifies me. Obviously, capital punishment is a touchy subject. But I feel strongly about it. I've read somewhere in the range of 50 true crime novels. I've read first hand what becomes of the lives of these parents and loved ones left behind. They are given something much worse than a death penalty. They get a fucking life penalty. They visit their children only in their dreams. Do you have any idea what thats like? I don't first hand, but i've read about. And i'm not just talking about someone dying thats close to you. I'm talking about someone getting murdered that's close to you. Having their flame snuffed about by another living breathing human being.
You've got to recognize that evil exists in this world. I wasn't so sure. I read 50 books about, literally, the most evil human beings that have ever existed on this earth. They maim, they steal, they torture, they inflict wounds not just on their victims, but on literally every human that knew or loved that person. And they love it, they savor it. The only times these animals can feel joy is when they're taking a life.
Go ahead, spend some time at a POMC (Parents of Murdered Children) meeting. Go to one of those meetings and tout your moral high-ground, anti-capital punishment ideals. I will take no part. You kill, you die. Simple as that. As far as i'm concerned anyway. But yeah, disagree. It's cool. As long as my stance is know, fall on whatever side of the line you will.
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On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy.
I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently.
So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
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On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
I think this sort of derails the thread a bit. But the problem with capital punishment comes when you execute someone that was or may have been innocent. Where does the line get drawn? How many innocent people get executed before its too much? 1 a year, 100 a year, 1 ever, no number is too high? The justice system is far from perfect, innocent people get locked up and executed, it happens.
I'd think special exceptions can be made for someone like hitler =P
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As a student of high school education in Cleveland, this reinforces the need to be more proactive in the lives of students. Too often do issues go unresolved, an in some unfortunate circumstances we end up with tragedies like this. It is certainly not worth ruining your life and ending others' over the events of high school, but it is hard to get teenagers to understand that what is going on isn't as world-ending as they think it is.
My sympathies go out to the city of Chardon, and those involved.
If you need help, tell someone. It's hard advice to take, but good advice nonetheless.
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This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
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On February 28 2012 11:37 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison? I think this sort of derails the thread a bit. But the problem with capital punishment comes when you execute someone that was or may have been innocent. Where does the line get drawn? How many innocent people get executed before its too much? 1 a year, 100 a year, 1 ever, no number is too high? The justice system is far from perfect, innocent people get locked up and executed, it happens. I'd think special exceptions can be made for someone like hitler =P
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
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EPT
