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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 11:23 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:20 MidKnight wrote:On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster. My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself". If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought. He was ready to kill more. Most news reports say that he shot multiple times (missing) at the teacher who then chased him out of the school. He is a monster. And I don't think that the story would be viewed any differently had be been being bullied at the specific moment. Under no circumstances barring a threat to you/other's lives should you ever murder people.
If that's the case, then I agree with you completely. But if he just walked to the table of 4 bullies, shot at them specifically then walked out and turned himself in, it gives a slightly different perspective than just treating this as another "school shooting".
Yes, in an ideal world murder is always wrong blah blah blah, people don't have the right to extract vigilante justice blah blah blah, but there wouldn't be a discussion if everything was that simple.
What if every day of his life they used physical violence on him, took away his things, humiliated him and threatened him? What if they did that 3 minutes before the incident?What if they had a knife? At what point would that could be considered a "delayed" self defense from a mentally unstable kid who couldn't take it anymore? What if they convinced him that they were gonna "deal with him after school" and put a knife to his throat etc.?
OBVIOUSLY, we don't know the details or the extent of bullying etc. etc. and the scenarios I'm making are borderline ridiculous, but again, my point is that this is a different case than just "another crazy kid took his father's gun and shot out his school".
Murder IS wrong. Period. But it's really easy to just chalk it up to "kid is a monster" and not think about all the angles.
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So does anyone know how many years a minor can get for a crime such as this? What is the range of possible sentences? What is the max? Minimum? Is it possible that he won't have to serve any jail time, period, in light of this bully-victim information?
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The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them.
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On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them.
He murded 2 people as of now.
On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything.
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On February 28 2012 11:55 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them. He murded 2 people as of now. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything. I think the point is it's too easy to get guns in America anyways.
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On February 28 2012 12:02 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:55 Ungrateful wrote:On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them. He murded 2 people as of now. On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything. I think the point is it's too easy to get guns in America anyways.
That's because of criminals.
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Just a few hours away from Bippzy  . Had plenty of texts from relatives wondering about me.
I hate that our society can develop such screwed up mental and social developments. However, bullshit like Rachel's challenge(google it if curious) are such boredom and bullshit to me that I don't have a good way to act out against things like this happening.
Also, I would feel sympathetic towards all parties involved, unless if the bullies were really malicious(like rape for dominance make death threats malicious)
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The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Edit:
On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid.
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On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see.
The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way.
So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god.
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On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem.
I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
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It is so sad and depressing to see stories like these. They make me worry about how my seemingly completely normal classmates could just snap one day and kill me.
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On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid.
What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this.
Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P
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On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
Yes he should have. I'd like to be better than him.
Quid pro quo: How do you explain your country/state being in line with, what your own nations rhetoric calls "terrorist states" on the matter of capital punishment (and basically the entire western world having abolished it)?
Don't bother bringing up higher murder rates (a discussion that would no doubt eventually lead to the good old gun control debate), murder is murder.
Also it has been shown that capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent.
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this is so sad... why do these things keep happening...
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If a woman and been repeatedly abused (emotionally, say, for the sake of argument) by her partner or husband for an extended period of time, then one day, "snapped", found a gun, waited for him to come home and shot him - is that morally justifiable?* Legally, I believe it would be considered murder.
If a robber was breaking into someone's house once a week and stealing stuff, and one week, the owner of the house decided to sit and wait for the robber with a gun, and shoot him when he came in - would people be more sympathetic towards the house owner or the robber?
(As an aside: a lawyer friend of mine was telling me vaguely about a case in which a guy broken into someone's house and hurt himself while robbing it - and then sued the people whose house it was for compensation - and apparently he won, though I can't verify this story personally).
Perhaps no one deserves to be murdered, and no one deserves to be bullied - but I feel in some ways that there is a system to hold murderers accountable for their actions (the legal system) whereas schoolyard bullying is not illegal and has no other structure in place to punish the perpetrators and/or support the victims. Which does not make what happened (or what has happened, as far as we can tell from the reportage) acceptable, really, or at least no more so than vigilante justice (though in a lot of ways, Western pop culture is one that glorifies vigilante justice).
*Apologies for defaulting to particular gender subjectivities, and it wasn't intended to be a statement equating bullying with masculinity.
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On February 28 2012 12:26 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem. I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
I think there are a lot of factors involved. Rehabilitation instead of making career criminals out of people for often times silly and trivial offenses. The sort of "go F yourself" nature of the country as a whole. The economics of the country, people feeling trapped in their circumstances. Education, health and wellness, etc etc. It's a tricky, weird situation and country IMO.
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On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god.
Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center.
We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity.
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On February 28 2012 12:32 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison? Yes he should have.
TBH it's sort of a silly question with him since there's obvious warcrimes against humanity and all that. He'd certainly be killed by a warcrimes tribunal or a military tribunal if say the US got a hold of him and didn't bring him to trial against the world.
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On February 28 2012 12:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god. Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center. We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity. ]
I agree we don't have the facts but to play devils advocate here even if they just knew each other in passing (school bus, bus stop, etc) bullying can still happen. In kindergarten I had a kid that pulled a knife on me on the school bus. Told me if I didn't call him that night he'd stab me the next day. So at like 2am I was standing on the kitchen table calling him because I obviously didn't want to die. Dad walked in the kitchen and was like wtf? Didn't even know the kid outside of the bus ride.
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On February 28 2012 12:41 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god. Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center. We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity. ] I agree we don't have the facts but to play devils advocate here even if they just knew each other in passing (school bus, bus stop, etc) bullying can still happen. In kindergarten I had a kid that pulled a knife on me on the school bus. Told me if I didn't call him that night he'd stab me the next day. So at like 2am I was standing on the kitchen table calling him because I obviously didn't want to die. Dad walked in the kitchen and was like wtf? Didn't even know the kid outside of the bus ride.
My point is that people are extrapolating wild conclusions off of little to no evidence because of their personal feelings about bullying. My point was not that bullying is impossible under these circumstances, although the idea that the shooter's victim was some inescapable bully-hellhound certainly does seem far-fetched based on the limited information we have available to us.
EDIT: And also we do know that the shooter and the victim did not know each other "in passing." It wasn't a simple "bully finds weird outcast kid to bully" situation. The shooter and the victim used to be friends, by all accounts, which is yet another complicating fact that people seem to be ignoring entirely.
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EPT
