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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 13:53 Mysticesper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. The argument against banning guns is that it hurts lawful citizens, as people who really want a gun will get their hands on a gun through some illegal method. You cannot really counter a gun without another gun, unfortunately. Whether or not you agree with it is up to your own judgement.
Hmm, if getting guns illegally is easy then I'm up for citizens to be able to own one too for self-defense.
On February 28 2012 13:55 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. And if he is much larger than you? What if he has a knife? I'm sorry but when someone breaks in (looking to harm me and my family or not) I refuse to take any chances with my family's well being. If I felt I had the jump on him I would tell him to freeze, say I have a gun, and to lay face down while the cops arrived or I would shoot him. To often does something look like a "fist fight" and end up being a stabbing or shooting. I have been in martial arts many years and I would still never risk a fight with my fists if I had another option. I lost a close-ish friend from martial arts when his brother got into a bar fight, confident because they were MMA fighters, and someone pulled a knife and stabbed him when he was walking away. Never take risks, never fight if you dont have to. Its NEVER worth risking your life over. Running is almost always the better choice. I'm sorry about your friend. I guess I can't argue with that, when it comes to fighting I'm pretty cocky myself but hearing stories about deaths make me humble.
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It's a wonder all these shootings occur in "gun free zones". I guess murderers don't care about signs like anti-gun people would wish to believe.
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On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think?
Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims.
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Hope this isn't too insensitive, but when reading through this thread I just pictured the poor kid trying to reach out to people on Omeagle and just ended up seeing alot of penises  If I was at my wit's end, I don't think seeing the jokers on Omeagle would end making me value life any more.
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On February 28 2012 14:03 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. We had multiple school counselors too. But they were broken down into alphabetical order. One counselor got A-whatever students, and so on. I know for certain fact my school counselor was an aloof whack job. Not to mention certainly pushing 70 years old. I wouldn't have put any faith in confiding in her at all under any circumstances. If I would have had to confide in someone luckily there was a teacher most students had at one point during their high school lives, that was regarded by basically everyone as being the best teacher they've ever had. I'm sure if someone had some deep, dark shit to talk about he'd be there for them. You might, maybe kill someone with a screwdriver if you snuck up behind them, maybe. Even if you lucked out (or were some covert ninja) and killed one person. End of crime spree. You got 1 and now everyone is either running or tackling you and your screwdriver. I never said "no guns blah blah" so invalid point there. I said a screwdriver would take massively more effort to do anything with. A gun is a force multiplier, a screwdriver is a makeshift weapon. You can kill someone with anything if you want it bad enough, doesn't mean its worth the effort. Your picture proves absolutely nothing. I hope you're never on a jury if your criteria for anything is "looks crazy". Kid obviously had issues. Undiagnosed mental issue? Certainly possible and I'm sure there will be testing done there. Picked on? That's been confirmed by the girl in the interview at least. Brother is nuts, thats probably going to add some weight to your world. Raised by grandparents, I loved mine but I wouldn't have felt like they could relate to my problems. When an animal is cornered they lash out. Obviously I think it'd be rational to believe this kid felt like he was cornered and this was his way of lashing out. Clearly it was a poor choice.
A poor choice that has ruined his future. None of that is an excuse to take another person's life.
Do you think it's normal to take pictures posing with guns and a knife like that, along with a threatening note? That picture (not mine) proves my point.
Kid does indeed look crazy.
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On February 28 2012 13:53 Mysticesper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. The argument against banning guns is that it hurts lawful citizens, as people who really want a gun will get their hands on a gun through some illegal method. You cannot really counter a gun without another gun, unfortunately. Whether or not you agree with it is up to your own judgement.
You forgot the fact that lawful citizen hurt innocents accidently are much higher than the threat of needed to protect yourself.
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On February 28 2012 14:00 SafeAsCheese wrote:
They generally seek help and get just as much (little) as boys do.
The rate of boy on boy harm from bullying retaliation is nowhere near the rate of female suicide from social pressure.
That's a bullshit claim, since you're comparing retaliation to suicide. When you consider suicide for both males and females, however, the rate of male suicide is far higher than the rate of female suicide.
The majority of suicide victims are male, and the ratio gets even more lopsided when it comes to children and young adults.
The media, however, is much more likely to report female victims, so it's understandable that many people are greatly misled.
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On February 28 2012 13:56 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:14 Endymion wrote:by the way, how come it's always guys shooting up schools and not girls.. girls have it way worse in the bullying area, they're tormented from every direction.. Probably because the second half of your statement is false. It is socially acceptable for both boys and girls to bully boys; it is only socially acceptable for girls to bully girls. Boy-on-girl bullying is relatively rare and more likely to be punished. Further, it is only socially acceptable to violently bully boys; it is not socially acceptable to beat up girls. Victims of bully violence are overwhelmingly male, and action is far more likely to be taken by authorities when girls are beat up than vice versa. Additionally, males tend to vary more in social status than females do; the people at both the very top and bottom of the social ladder tend to be males, which means that the targets of bullying (people on the bottom) will also tend to be male. Finally, our gender norms generally expect boys to stand up for themselves, and those who do not receive little support and are considered unmasculine. Girls, on the other hand, are expected to seek help and generally do so, without any social disapproval when they do so.
So many assumptions in one post - I don't know where to begin debunking them all. I suppose ,in brief:
I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable.
I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context).
Physical violence is not the only form of bullying.
I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore.
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High School.. when I think back to those days, I'm reminded of how fragile everyone was. Whether you had no friends or were the most popular kid at school.. everyone was fragile leading us to do things that we would maybe regret later.
Really sad..
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On February 28 2012 14:09 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think? Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims.
Well I guess every school is different. Down here fights have been pretty common. Maybe around 6 or 7 since the school year started in August. If a kid talks crap about you or picks on you or anything, you just throw a punch the next time you both run into each other. One gets suspended for 3 days and the other gets in-school suspension for 3 days. After that, the whole thing is dropped and everyone moves on with their lives.
I suppose I'm just lucky to have honest, caring adults looking over me.
Our school separates everyone's counselors by alphabetical order as well, but that's only when you need to talk about your school schedule. If it's anything unrelated to that then you're welcomed to walk right into your favorite counselor's office and pour out your heart's content to them.
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On February 28 2012 14:14 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:03 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. We had multiple school counselors too. But they were broken down into alphabetical order. One counselor got A-whatever students, and so on. I know for certain fact my school counselor was an aloof whack job. Not to mention certainly pushing 70 years old. I wouldn't have put any faith in confiding in her at all under any circumstances. If I would have had to confide in someone luckily there was a teacher most students had at one point during their high school lives, that was regarded by basically everyone as being the best teacher they've ever had. I'm sure if someone had some deep, dark shit to talk about he'd be there for them. You might, maybe kill someone with a screwdriver if you snuck up behind them, maybe. Even if you lucked out (or were some covert ninja) and killed one person. End of crime spree. You got 1 and now everyone is either running or tackling you and your screwdriver. I never said "no guns blah blah" so invalid point there. I said a screwdriver would take massively more effort to do anything with. A gun is a force multiplier, a screwdriver is a makeshift weapon. You can kill someone with anything if you want it bad enough, doesn't mean its worth the effort. Your picture proves absolutely nothing. I hope you're never on a jury if your criteria for anything is "looks crazy". Kid obviously had issues. Undiagnosed mental issue? Certainly possible and I'm sure there will be testing done there. Picked on? That's been confirmed by the girl in the interview at least. Brother is nuts, thats probably going to add some weight to your world. Raised by grandparents, I loved mine but I wouldn't have felt like they could relate to my problems. When an animal is cornered they lash out. Obviously I think it'd be rational to believe this kid felt like he was cornered and this was his way of lashing out. Clearly it was a poor choice. A poor choice that has ruined his future. None of that is an excuse to take another person's life. Do you think it's normal to take pictures posing with guns and a knife like that, along with a threatening note? That picture (not mine) proves my point. Kid does indeed look crazy.
Obviously most choices that involve murder don't bode well for one's future. I've never once in this thread said anything is an excuse to kill those kids. But none of this surprises me with the way things are. It's a shitty deal all around. It's fairly clear to me that this kid didn't feel like there was any way out. Regardless of if there was someone who cared, someone who could have steered this whole thing in a different direction, he didn't feel like there was. If you can't make the kid feel like there is help, real help, that cares deeply about him something awful is bound to happen.
I think a silly person takes pics of themselves posing with guns. I've seen a lot of pics of people posing with guns thinking they're an action hero or something and I think 100% of those pics are childish at best. The note obviously adds a level of disturbance to things. The pic you posted (semantics, didn't think you took the pic =P ) doesn't convey anything to me other than "obviously troubled teenager". That in and of itself doesn't get to the heart of anything though. It doesn't prove he's a psychopath, it doesn't show what's brewing in his heart and mind, it doesn't convey why he's an "obviously troubled teenager". That's the problem, you're sort throwing this blanket of batshit crazy on him when odds are its deeper than that. Maybe if someone got to that deep stuff this doesn't happen. That's speculation, but statistically the odds of him just being a bullied kid that one day snapped are far higher than him being a psychopath.
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On February 28 2012 14:24 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:09 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think? Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims. Well I guess every school is different. Down here fights have been pretty common. Maybe around 6 or 7 since the school year started in August. If a kid talks crap about you or picks on you or anything, you just throw a punch the next time you both run into each other. One gets suspended for 3 days and the other gets in-school suspension for 3 days. After that, the whole thing is dropped and everyone moves on with their lives. I suppose I'm just lucky to have honest, caring adults looking over me. Our school separates everyone's counselors by alphabetical order as well, but that's only when you need to talk about your school schedule. If it's anything unrelated to that then you're welcomed to walk right into your favorite counselor's office and pour out your heart's content to them. Perhaps if the shooter was going to your school and had access to counselors like yours things would have turned out differently, that's assuming if he was indeed bullied and such, I'm not even 100% sure if all the facts are out yet or anything. 
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I'm sorry, but while I'll sympathize that the kid died, I'll also say that I could see that kid bullying another. I don't see why you somehow think he would be incapable of such a thing simply because he work and "seemed" pretty nice. Talk to anyone's friend (especially of the recently deceased) and they'll all say the person was nice, or other positive things about them. No one is going to say: "oh yea my buddy that just died? Yeah, he was kind of an asshole. Always got into fights and was generally a dick." Not saying the kid was, but you should never take anything the people they interview say seriously.
As for the person who shot up the place....I was bullied myself and I can't say I ever thought of actually killing my bullies. Maybe if I had easy access to a gun the thought would have crossed my mind, but I always just ran. It takes a certain type of person to actually kill another. He should be in jail for a long long time.
On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights.
Well, it is a solution to all these school shootings. Hard to shoot up a school without a gun to shoot with, and the argument that they would just bring a knife or something is just silly. You have to be extremely confident in yourself to take on a group of people with just a knife. Maybe a chainsaw or sword of some sort (which are both quite rare), but not a knife.
I'll agree that banning guns won't stop bullies though.
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On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable.
Either you do not understand what "socially acceptable" means, or you do not understand the difference between an empirical and a normative statement.
I didn't argue that bully of any sort is morally acceptable. Rather, I am stating as a fact that certain types of bullying are socially accepted, as in tolerated or approved of, by society.
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context).
You can easily look up bullying statistics online.
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:Physical violence is not the only form of bullying.
Duh. But which one do you think leads to violent retaliation more often?
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore.
Maybe that's true for you folks in Australia (anecdotally, I've found Australian girls to be delightfully tough), but that's not the case in the United States, which was the context of this discussion.
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On February 28 2012 15:32 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable. Either you do not understand what "socially acceptable" means, or you do not understand the difference between an empirical and a normative statement. I didn't argue that bully of any sort is morally acceptable. Rather, I am stating as a fact that certain types of bullying are socially accepted, as in tolerated or approved of, by society. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context). You can easily look up bullying statistics online. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:Physical violence is not the only form of bullying. Duh. But which one do you think leads to violent retaliation more often? Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore. Maybe that's true for you folks in Australia (anecdotally, I've found Australian girls to be delightfully tough), but that's not the case in the United States, which was the context of this discussion.
The fact that you, with your United States location tag, feel that you can comment on Australian girls, yet dismiss my qualification to comment on socialisation in American schools based on my Australian location tag, is a further example of your inability to form a substantial argument.
I would also suggest that your unfortunate use of the descriptor "delightfully tough", which comes across as patronising (etymology alert!) and reeks of colonialist-esque novelty would indicate that you are poorly positioned to constructively engage in gender discourse.
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No one deserves to die for being picked on. I wish schools would go further to prevent things like this from happening, but I really don't know how they could improve...other than like metal detectors and going over the top. I don't really think that's a great idea either though.
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On February 28 2012 14:18 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:00 SafeAsCheese wrote:
They generally seek help and get just as much (little) as boys do.
The rate of boy on boy harm from bullying retaliation is nowhere near the rate of female suicide from social pressure. That's a bullshit claim, since you're comparing retaliation to suicide. When you consider suicide for both males and females, however, the rate of male suicide is far higher than the rate of female suicide. The majority of suicide victims are male, and the ratio gets even more lopsided when it comes to children and young adults. The media, however, is much more likely to report female victims, so it's understandable that many people are greatly misled.
when did female suicide from social pressure become an issue in this thread?
stay on topic please guys.
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On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. Show nested quote +there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
Yeah I had to lol at his post too. Incidentally, his theory is also right out of a Simpsons episode.
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I was bullied in school also but instead of trying to kill the bully's i just beat them in the face repeatedly until they were seeping blood. Never understood why people need guns just to harm people
What are fists made for... This is beyond sad the things that happened but no1 in their right mind would think him being bullied makes it ok that he shot 4 and killed 1. Suspended or Prisoner for life... Not a hard decision
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what happens when the bullied becomes the bully...then who is right and who is wrong? the first person who bullied or the one who is retaliation bullying?
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EPT
