|
As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
yahoo article: http://gma.yahoo.com/chardon-high-school-shooting-one-dead-four-injured-140607604--abc-news.html
One student has died following a shooting this morning at Chardon High School in Ohio. Four others were injured and the shooter is in custody.
"There is one deceased student," Chardon Police Chief Tim McKenna said at a news conference. "That's the sad news for all of us today."
Police will not yet identify the gunman, saying only that he has not yet been charged and that he is a juvenile.
The gunman opened fire with a handgun just before 8 a.m. in the school cafeteria where students were eating breakfast, authorities and witnesses said.
The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and later turned himself in to a passerby, authorities said. Police have not yet confirmed whether the gunman was a student at the school, but junior Heather Ziska told the Associated Press she just a few feet away when he opened fire and she recognized the shooter as a fellow student.
The suspect is in custody at Geauga County Safety Center, according to ABC News' Cleveland affiliate WEWS.
"Our prayers go out to the five victims and their families," a choked up School Superintendent Jospeh Bergant said at news conference. "It's a horrible tragedy."
Geauga County Sheriff Daniel McClelland praised the reaction to the shooting.
"A prompt entry was made into the school. They went into the school and located the victims. It became readily apparent that the shooter had fled already," McClelland said. "The individual was apprehended some distance from the school and had fled on foot."
The officer said police created a security perimeter to make sure the gunman could not return and a search, including a K-9 unit, was launched for the suspect.
Two students were taken by ambulance to Hillcrest Hospital and three were taken by helicopter to MetroHealth Hospital, according to WEWS.
Parent Teresa Hunt told WEWS that she was texting with her daughter during the lockdown and her daughter said she heard five shots fired in the cafeteria about 7:30 a.m. Her daughter texted that students were scared and that four people had been shot.
Chardon student Evan Erasmus told WEWS that a student had tweeted that he was going to bring a gun to school, but that no one took him seriously.
The Chardon Fire Department was called to the school at about 7:45 a.m. in response to a report of "several people shot," according to Inspector William Crowley of the Chardon Fire Department.
Multiple law enforcement agencies, including a SWAT team, rushed to the school.
The superintendent immediately canceled classes at all schools in the district. Students who were still on school buses were being dropped back off at their homes and parents were called to pick up their children that were already at school.
The Chardon School District sent a voicemail to parents that schools are closed and high school students are being moved to the middle school, according to WEWS.
Parents received the following message:
"As of 9:00 AM the alleged sole CHS gunman is in custody and Chardon High School students are being moved by safety forces to Maple Elementary. Parents or legal guardians can pick up their students up any time. Chardon Middle School students are also being released to parents."
Ohio Gov. John Kasich tweeted around 9:30 a.m., "Pls pray for wounded Chardon HS students, their families, and their community; appears things under control now."
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has eight agents on their way to the scene and they are expected to trace the firearm.
Chardon is a village in Geauga County, about 35 miles east of Cleveland, Ohio.
pics of the shooter (not official yet, but they are him...) http://i39.tinypic.com/zkojld.jpg Edit - no longer works, sorry, but pics depicted alleged shooter posing with two guns.
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero.
Edit2: It has been confirmed that the shooter in fact chose his victims at random - he did not know the students nor was he bullied by them.
|
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
|
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously?
|
Bullies are largely the product of poor parenting and unhealthy environment in and outside of home, all of which can be fixed. Just because they were doing something unconscionably wrong does not mean they deserved death or injury.
|
|
|
The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and later turned himself in to a passerby, authorities said. Pretty amazing teacher might i add, but indeed a tragedy. Sad that this can still happen when most people already know how serious bullying can get.
|
On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero.
man, don't say that. i hate seeing bullies get away with it, and i hate that they do it, but c'mon...
my sympathies go out to everyone involved, including the shooter. his life is over. stuff like this is so sad, it just makes you want to cry.
|
On February 28 2012 04:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Bullies are largely the product of poor parenting and unhealthy environment in and outside of home, all of which can be fixed. Just because they were doing something unconscionably wrong does not mean they deserved death or injury. Sure bullies can be fixed but the point is that these specific bullies weren't fixed because no one bothered to do anything about it so I disagree. Although I wish death to no one, I can't feel sympathy for them.
|
so a kid with a gun gets spooked by a teacher who runs after him. weird
|
On February 28 2012 04:30 iwearcapes wrote:
so a kid with a gun gets spooked by a teacher who runs after him. weird
My guess is once the bullies got what was coming for them, his iron resolve broke, especially since he turned himself in.
Sad to say the least.
|
On February 28 2012 04:30 iwearcapes wrote:
so a kid with a gun gets spooked by a teacher who runs after him. weird
Obviously he didn't want to kill the teacher. He just wanted to get back at those bullies and not hurt anybody else i guess.
|
On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously?
^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end.
|
On February 28 2012 04:30 iwearcapes wrote:
so a kid with a gun gets spooked by a teacher who runs after him. weird It's because the shooter had a purpose, he didn't want to kill anyone who wasn't involved with the bullying so if your not going to shoot the teacher the only option left is flee. He also voluntarily gave himself up which further proves my point that his sole purpose was to decimate the bullies.
|
On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero.
Being a jerk isn't something that you deserve to die for.
|
On February 28 2012 04:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. man, don't say that. i hate seeing bullies get away with it, and i hate that they do it, but c'mon... my sympathies go out to everyone involved, including the shooter. his life is over. stuff like this is so sad, it just makes you want to cry.
I said almost zero... no one deserves to be shot for bullying, but from someone who has been bullied in school, it is very difficult for me to feel sorry for them.
|
On February 28 2012 04:34 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. man, don't say that. i hate seeing bullies get away with it, and i hate that they do it, but c'mon... my sympathies go out to everyone involved, including the shooter. his life is over. stuff like this is so sad, it just makes you want to cry. I said almost zero... no one deserves to be shot for bullying, but from someone who has been bullied in school, it is very difficult for me to feel sorry for them.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
|
Really sounds like it wasn't a case of the kid went bonkers and decided to shoot up the school. I'm curious what pushed him to this, particularly since he turned himself in and even refrained from harming those who weren't his purported antagonizers.
Very sad.
|
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit.
|
On February 28 2012 04:34 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. Being a jerk isn't something that you deserve to die for. Your understanding of bullying is quite low if you summarize them to just being a jerk.
|
On February 28 2012 04:34 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. Being a jerk isn't something that you deserve to die for.
Agreed.
The bullies and the shooter all needed help. Now none of them will get it.
Sigh.
|
|
|
Bully kids and this is what you get, the breaking point we've had an increasing number of threads like this on TL in 2011 stabbings and the like, sad when it's taken to this extreme but anyone who has been in that same position has the same urges and when the opportunity presents itself... This happens.
|
On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit.
I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings.
|
to be honest, I feel bad for the shooter as much as the victims... I mean, it's hard to imagine being pushed around to the point of breaking like that. I never had to deal with bullying, but I can't imagine how much shit one would have to take before resolving to that. As for the bullies, dumb life choices brought them there, but still really shitty for their families, like the family of the shooter. All parties made bad decisions and all are paying too high of a price.
Sad news.
|
Why did bullying not lead to people shooting each other when i went to school... What the hell is going on.
|
On February 28 2012 04:34 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. man, don't say that. i hate seeing bullies get away with it, and i hate that they do it, but c'mon... my sympathies go out to everyone involved, including the shooter. his life is over. stuff like this is so sad, it just makes you want to cry. I said almost zero... no one deserves to be shot for bullying, but from someone who has been bullied in school, it is very difficult for me to feel sorry for them.
i've been bullied, and i have siblings and cousins and friends who were bullied mercilisly. its hard, and you wish that it couldn't happen. but one of these kids is dead and it's horrible.
i understand the feeling, i really do. but you have to try to think about it like this: this guys parents, friends, siblings, etc.... they will never see their son/brother/friend again. no one deserves to be shot like that. i feel so bad for everyone involved. im not trying to call down anyone for their feelings, im just saying to think about it.
|
On February 28 2012 04:38 DannyJ wrote:
Why did bullying not lead to people shooting each other when i went to school... What the hell is going on.
Easier for kids to obtain guns now, I guess.
|
Sad story. Good that there's been an increase in bullying awareness lately though. It's easy to blame it on the drugs, rock 'n roll and the VIDYA GAMEZ.
Bullying kills!
|
Seems like people are never going to learn to respect others. Same story repeating.
|
On February 28 2012 04:39 Paperplane wrote:
Sad story. Good that there's been an increase in bullying awareness lately though. It's easy to blame it on the drugs, rock 'n roll and the VIDYA GAMEZ.
Bullying kills! SC2 marines are a bad influence to kids these days.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 28 2012 04:39 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:38 DannyJ wrote:
Why did bullying not lead to people shooting each other when i went to school... What the hell is going on. Easier for kids to obtain guns now, I guess.
Doubt it. I mean yeah sure, bullying has always made people do crazy shit, but doesn't there seem to be a FAR greater reaction to it nowadays in terms of violence and suicide, etc? Maybe I'm wrong.
I guess it's just a different age with things like facebook and shit which are somehow making it harder for kids. Sad.
|
|
|
I guess the adults just can't ignore bullying anymore.
|
In before this topic devolves pointless into why the bullied kid shouldn't have shot them instead of discussing how to prevent bullying.
But it's probably passed that at this point
User was warned for not reading the thread and using memes
|
They said the shooter was a nice guy, easy to talk to etc... I guess they must have really pissed him off in order for him to shoot them.
|
On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings.
Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies.
The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun.
I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation.
|
If the schools would grow some fucking balls take some accountability for what happens on their property, bullying would never happen, that's the saddest part about these shootings.
I was bullied myself and while I disagree with bullying obviously, shooting them isn't the answer. Nobody bothers to help these fucking kids then they wonder why it happened.
On February 28 2012 04:43 Tryndamere wrote:
They said the shooter was a nice guy, easy to talk to etc... I guess they must have really pissed him off in order for him to shoot them.
If you get abused everyday, you will only take it for so long until you snap. I don't care how nice someone is, if pushed hard enough they will reach a breaking point.
|
On February 28 2012 04:42 Integra wrote:
I guess the adults just can't ignore bullying anymore.
Bullying is always going to exist because very few teachers actually give a shit about it + the ones that do can't really do much.
|
On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see.
This too. When I was in middle school the faculty actually pushed me away from help claiming I needed to deal with it on my own and saying I was clinging to them too much and taking up too much of their time. That's why I got so messed up, I stopped reporting it (even when it went escalated to something even worse which I will not mention here) - because I thought nobody cared. That's why these kids snap; they honestly think they can't do anything else.
|
Holy shit, I remember a thread on 4chan with pics of this guy before it happened. He was going around on Omegle or some shit telling people that he was going to do it. I distinctly remember these pictures, and people on /b/ trying to track him down, but I lost track of the thread. Fuck me.
|
On February 28 2012 04:43 Tryndamere wrote:
They said the shooter was a nice guy, easy to talk to etc... I guess they must have really pissed him off in order for him to shoot them.
"He was such a nice guy."
"I could never have suspected."
"He seemed like a good father."
I don't know how many times I've seen these kinds of comments when someone does something horrible, murder, rape or whatever it might be. At some point you have to realize that someone that seems like a "nice guy" can be as capable of commiting horrible things as people that you'd identify as the opposite.
|
Scary because I used to live in Ohio.
Oh well ........ :s sad story
|
On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see.
So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
|
On February 28 2012 04:51 Incognoto wrote:
Scary because I used to live in Ohio.
Oh well ........ :s sad story
That happened like 10 minutes from where I live... Sad to see, but it's the same old story. And nobody is taking bullying more seriously.
|
On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation.
Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting.
Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen...
|
Jesus, that kid does not look old :|
More gun control debates incomming.
|
On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
The difference being that the average adult is of a much more stable mental state than the average teenager.
Not saying what the kid was right or acceptable, but the people that spend their time around these kids day in and day out need to pay attention for the warning signs. We call them children for a reason, they're not at the point yet where we expect them to be capable of making well-reasoned decisions.
|
On February 28 2012 04:53 Hypemeup wrote:
Jesus, that kid does not look old :|
More gun control debates incomming.
As if on cue, the "Should people be allowed..." thread got bumped. Hahaha.
|
On February 28 2012 04:53 Hypemeup wrote:
Jesus, that kid does not look old :|
More gun control debates incomming.
Hopefully those will stay in their appropriate topic...
Edit: Looks like they will
|
god i fucking hate bullies. i feel bad for the kid, but obviously shooting people is too extreme.
+ Show Spoiler +another reason why we need heavier gun control. who knows where he got the guns from... spoiler'd so to not start a stupid debate. (my hopes at least)
|
Three injured? He should have worked on his aim before attempting this. Now maybe kids will think twice before bullying people, with the chance of being shot and all that. Condolences to the families of all five kids.
User was warned for this post
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
This attitude is the root of problem. Some people simply cannot deal with it. I bet people told this kid many times to deal with it. We've been trying this approach for quite a while and look where it got us.
You obviously cannot make the world perfect but you can make it better. Very little is done about bullying nowadays and it has to change or these kind of events will keep happening as often as they do now.
|
On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen...
Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well.
I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant.
|
On February 28 2012 04:49 Steemer wrote:
Holy shit, I remember a thread on 4chan with pics of this guy before it happened. He was going around on Omegle or some shit telling people that he was going to do it. I distinctly remember these pictures, and people on /b/ trying to track him down, but I lost track of the thread. Fuck me.
Wow, how long ago was this? I saw the thing he was holding said "Omegle", didn't know what it meant.
|
On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own. This isn't a valid point at all. Comparing the average stable adult to teenagers with their puberty and such is LOL worthy.
|
Its too unfortunate that shit like this had to happen. I remember gettin bullied pretty hardcore in middle school and now the bully is one of my best friends... If only bullying was approached with an open mind. you would be surprised at how damaged these people are. I feel very sorry for both
|
This happened at my high school... I'm sure this sentiment is shared by plenty of people who's schools later became the targets of armed violence, but I must say I never thought it would happen at ours. To make things worse, my niece was within a few feet of the shooting(thankfully unharmed) and good friends with one of the injured. The victim that was fatally shot worked at a bowling alley I go to every now and then =/. From what I've been told this is not about bullying, but actually about a drug issue(sounds like someone got screwed on a deal, this is 2nd hand information from the students at the school I have connections to).
I'm not completely broken up about it, but it is a pretty big shakeup when something like this happens 'at home.'
|
On February 28 2012 04:54 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. The difference being that the average adult is of a much more stable mental state than the average teenager. Not saying what the kid was right or acceptable, but the people that spend their time around these kids day in and day out need to pay attention for the warning signs. We call them children for a reason, they're not at the point yet where we expect them to be capable of making well-reasoned decisions.
I'm not saying that bullying should be ignored completely if it is in the school they have a obligation to every student to make them feel safe while in school. I just don't agree with the whole thing "we can just get rid of all the bullies if we just did x" because that is never going to work jerks will be jerks no matter what. You can't change who someone is unless they want to change themselves first.
|
Btw, the shooters name is TJ Lane and the victim that ended up dying is Russel King. Also, not only are they basing this on bullying, but apparently TJ's ex girlfriend started to date Russel.
Didn't see this info in the link yet, thought I'd share it.
|
On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own.
The sad thing is? Violence works...the two times I've ever snapped when I was being tormented, I punched the offender(s), and neither one ever looked me in the eye again. What does this teach me? Do I believe experience, which has taught me to fight back, or what I grew up being told, which was to ignore it and it will go away, or to use my words, neither of which worked? Hm...that's the thing about bullies they don't back down until someone bites harder than they do, so to speak. Schools need to eliminate bullying at its source or the cycle of violence will not stop...it's sad, especially now that I'm old enough to step back and look at what has happened in my life.
|
On February 28 2012 05:01 GreEny K wrote:
Btw, the shooters name is TJ Lane and the victim that ended up dying is Russel King. Also, not only are they basing this on bullying, but apparently TJ's ex girlfriend started to date Russel.
Didn't see this info in the link yet, thought I'd share it.
Ah. Bullying + Jealousy = Psychological molotov cocktail.
|
The sad thing is that this guy announced his intentions on omegle/facebook/twitter and nobody took him seriously and reported it to the authorities?
|
On February 28 2012 05:00 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:54 ZasZ. wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. The difference being that the average adult is of a much more stable mental state than the average teenager. Not saying what the kid was right or acceptable, but the people that spend their time around these kids day in and day out need to pay attention for the warning signs. We call them children for a reason, they're not at the point yet where we expect them to be capable of making well-reasoned decisions. I'm not saying that bullying should be ignored completely if it is in the school they have a obligation to every student to make them feel safe while in school. I just don't agree with the whole thing "we can just get rid of all the bullies if we just did x" because that is never going to work jerks will be jerks no matter what. You can't change who someone is unless they want to change themselves first.
Then I guess the only thing that needs to be said is that they should accept the risk that someone might kill them one day if they behave in that manner. It's unlikely, but always possible.
|
On February 28 2012 05:01 GreEny K wrote:
Btw, the shooters name is TJ Lane and the victim that ended up dying is Russel King. Also, not only are they basing this on bullying, but apparently TJ's ex girlfriend started to date Russel.
Didn't see this info in the link yet, thought I'd share it.
Hmm interesting... I got the bullying angle from a guy from his school that they were interviewing on CNN, he said something like "I know the group of kids that he shot at builled him"
I'm sure there's more to the story that hasn't come out yet.
|
Very sad for all the kids and families involved in this tragedy, my sympathies go out to them. I really wish the OP wouldn't have implied that the bullies deserved to be open fired on and shot or killed.
|
Heartbreaking that it comes to this sometimes. Nothing you can say now, but thoughts and prayers to the families.
|
On February 28 2012 05:02 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own. The sad thing is? Violence works...the two times I've ever snapped when I was being tormented, I punched the offender(s), and neither one ever looked me in the eye again. What does this teach me? Do I believe experience, which has taught me to fight back, or what I grew up being told, which was to ignore it and it will go away, or to use my words, neither of which worked? Hm...that's the thing about bullies they don't back down until someone bites harder than they do, so to speak. Schools need to eliminate bullying at its source or the cycle of violence will not stop...it's sad, especially now that I'm old enough to step back and look at what has happened in my life.
Violence should be the last step you take when confronting a bully, but if after talking to the teacher/school and they are doing nothing about it there is nothing wrong with defending yourself if you are being physically bullied(not with guns or premeditated murder, but with your fists when you are being bullied). What is really stupid is schools' zero tolerance rule for fighting. Someone who is getting beat up should have the right to defend themselves without getting suspended, in my opinion it just feeds the fire. The kids that are worried about getting suspended are not the aggressors, but the defenders.
|
On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant.
Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement.
|
Calm the fuck down people. At least let some more facts roll in so that we can get something more than pure conjecture about the events that led up to the shooting.
And then we can continue to praise premeditated murder because we were all bullied as children and it ruined our lives.
|
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head.
|
On February 28 2012 05:11 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Calm the fuck down people. At least let some more facts roll in so that we can get something more than pure conjecture about the events that led up to the shooting.
And then we can continue to praise premeditated murder because we were all bullied as children and it ruined our lives.
I don't think anyone here is praising it...at least I'm not, I'm just sad...sad that this kid was pushed to the point where he took the life of another...a cycle of sadness, I guess...
|
On February 28 2012 05:02 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own. The sad thing is? Violence works...the two times I've ever snapped when I was being tormented, I punched the offender(s), and neither one ever looked me in the eye again. What does this teach me? Do I believe experience, which has taught me to fight back, or what I grew up being told, which was to ignore it and it will go away, or to use my words, neither of which worked? Hm...that's the thing about bullies they don't back down until someone bites harder than they do, so to speak. Schools need to eliminate bullying at its source or the cycle of violence will not stop...it's sad, especially now that I'm old enough to step back and look at what has happened in my life.
agreed, ignoring people doesn't work, since if you do that, they'll know that you're a easy target and they'll bully you even worse.
if the authorities are ignoring you, then the only thing you can do is to fight them, and to make them realize how dangerous you can be. this guy should have just confronted them early on (with fists not guns), instead of ignoring them to the point where he snapped.
|
On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work.
|
On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work.
He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Which I can't imagine people would seriously disagree with.
|
On February 28 2012 05:14 asdav wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:02 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own. The sad thing is? Violence works...the two times I've ever snapped when I was being tormented, I punched the offender(s), and neither one ever looked me in the eye again. What does this teach me? Do I believe experience, which has taught me to fight back, or what I grew up being told, which was to ignore it and it will go away, or to use my words, neither of which worked? Hm...that's the thing about bullies they don't back down until someone bites harder than they do, so to speak. Schools need to eliminate bullying at its source or the cycle of violence will not stop...it's sad, especially now that I'm old enough to step back and look at what has happened in my life. agreed, ignoring people doesn't work, since if you do that, they'll know that you're a easy target and they'll bully you even worse. if the authorities are ignoring you, then the only thing you can do is to fight them, and to make them realize how dangerous you can be. this guy should have just confronted them early on (with fists not guns), instead of ignoring them to the point where he snapped. Good luck winning your fight with fists in a 1 vs. 5 situation... That's just an invitation to lose some teeth.
|
I live so close to this =(
It is scary to think that this shit can happen anywhere and at anytime without warning.
We finished our school day today with a moment of silence.
|
On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work.
That was a mean thing to say, maybe I should come shoot you?
User was warned for this post
|
Chardon student Evan Erasmus told WEWS that a student had tweeted that he was going to bring a gun to school, but that no one took him seriously.
What's funny is awhile ago people were outraged a UK couple was kicked out of US for tweeting nonsense. More reason for government to do so!
|
On February 28 2012 05:10 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:02 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:58 ASNheat wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. Very valid point. What I'm trying to say is that the way we are taught as children isn't as effective as it could be. When a child is told to just ignore the bullies, they aren't really being taught how to cope with the feelings they have in a proper, constructive manner. It runs much deeper to fully understand the feelings you are having, why they are occurring, and how to cope with them, than just taking a blind eye to the problem and telling people to ignore it and deal with it on their own. The sad thing is? Violence works...the two times I've ever snapped when I was being tormented, I punched the offender(s), and neither one ever looked me in the eye again. What does this teach me? Do I believe experience, which has taught me to fight back, or what I grew up being told, which was to ignore it and it will go away, or to use my words, neither of which worked? Hm...that's the thing about bullies they don't back down until someone bites harder than they do, so to speak. Schools need to eliminate bullying at its source or the cycle of violence will not stop...it's sad, especially now that I'm old enough to step back and look at what has happened in my life. Violence should be the last step you take when confronting a bully, but if after talking to the teacher/school and they are doing nothing about it there is nothing wrong with defending yourself if you are being physically bullied(not with guns or premeditated murder, but with your fists when you are being bullied). What is really stupid is schools' zero tolerance rule for fighting. Someone who is getting beat up should have the right to defend themselves without getting suspended, in my opinion it just feeds the fire. The kids that are worried about getting suspended are not the aggressors, but the defenders.
And that was exactly what happened with me. Eh heh. But the second time, I got off easy because it was the last day of school...
|
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 28 2012 04:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Bullies are largely the product of poor parenting and unhealthy environment in and outside of home, all of which can be fixed. Just because they were doing something unconscionably wrong does not mean they deserved death or injury.
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order".
What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries?
there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined.
Id - "but everyone has free will/choice."
Going to say that personality traits are not based on genetics even thought we've proven this to be true? Traits such as aggression and whatnot? If thats not true, how come basic genetic manipulation in dogs proves it via simple breeding procedures to produce dogs that are violent and muscular but stupid and easily trainable? The same thing happens in horses.
Id - "but humans aren't animals/have some special unidentifiable spark in them that makes them superior to other mammals and ignore genetic reality." You're an idiot, Id.
bullies are the product of genetics, just like sociopaths and antisocials are the products of genetics creating a different brain structure that greatly diminishes or completely eliminates empathy and other similar emotions, although they can sure fake it.
I just loathe people spouting off about "bullies are created by upbringing" when bullies and victims are both created by genetics.
Why do you think it's always the "nice quiet one" who gets bullied? because he's beta, he exhibits the body language and emits the pheromones that say "kick me", because genetics creates his personality type and his hormones
All the anecdotal stuff about "beta/alpha" is based on intrinsic laws of biology that we can casually observe and understand, yet when science can start pointing fingers to the incriminating genes, we have this social pull towards "bullies were made and this cycle could end if only we did something more". Yes, we can do something more, but the cycle will never end and bullies will always exist because of genes.
You're going to have to breed out aggression by neutering all "physical" people, such as athletes of physical sports, who are sublimating their aggressive tendencies into socially acceptable forms of behavior, and army people, who are doing a less acceptable sublimation if you think war and killing is wrong, and it only leads to more war and killing (as ghandi seemed to deeply believe in, or jesus, or buddha, etc etc), and only allow breeding between the "betas", or use drugs to blunt the aggressive nature in people so they do not act wrongly and cause problems, and/or genetically modify babies, either in secret or with parental consent, so that they become less aggressive over time and eventually weed it out that way. You could GM babies to produce sperm and ova, once they become old enough to produce such, that will turn off genes that relate to aggression and such, which would have similar effect as manipulating sperm and ova themselves while trying to fertilize an egg.
Anyway, noone watched the movie Serenity, I take it?
On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed.
its fortunate some people died and not others, eh?
|
On February 28 2012 05:18 Mark Henry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. That was a mean thing to say, maybe I should come shoot you?
How exactly was that mean...at all? Are you just here to troll everyone?
|
On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on.
|
On February 28 2012 05:10 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant. Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement.
There's no such thing as "old enough to know better." It's purely situational. A 30 year old grown adult taken out of a tribal village won't "know better" in our society because behavior is environmentally dictated. "Knowing better" is a matter of conditioning the right societal interests into the kids.
Which is also why you are wrong if you think children just naturally can progress into societal bullying. Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people. It is the exact same kind of trauma that bullies inflict on others.
If you're old enough to know better you should be able to broaden your view about this. Ignorance to the situation isn't just not condoning bullying.
|
honestly, this is life and no matter how bad it sounds this kind of stuff will always happen no matter the efforts to try and stop it. it is just like war, it will happen and nothing will stop it forever. it is sad but true.
|
I don't understand these people that go an shoot kids because they were bullied.
It disgusts me that family or friends didn't notice something wrong with the kid. Fortunately for me my mother and father did a lot to help me through my middle school days. I was constantly bullied. I'd always come home with my lunch money stolen or a black eye or my homework torn up. I think it is on te parents at this point.
Oh well, lock the kid up for life and leave it at that.
|
On February 28 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:10 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant. Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement. There's no such thing as "old enough to know better." It's purely situational. A 30 year old grown adult taken out of a tribal village won't "know better" in our society because behavior is environmentally dictated. "Knowing better" is a matter of conditioning the right societal interests into the kids. Which is also why you are wrong if you think children just naturally can progress into societal bullying. Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people. It is the exact same kind of trauma that bullies inflict on others. If you're old enough to know better you should be able to broaden your view about this. Ignorance to the situation isn't just not condoning bullying.
that is also true. knowledge of good and bad is based on learning, therefore if you chained a person to the ground since infancy, and after 30 years you told them to kill someone, when they have no concept that it is "good or bad" can the murder be at fault? Knowledge is guilt and choice. Now lets reverse that for ignorance on the situation of bullying as it truly is. Doesn't that prove that the people "who didnt do enough" are also innocent?
On February 28 2012 05:22 ranshaked wrote:
I don't understand these people that go an shoot kids because they were bullied.
It disgusts me that family or friends didn't notice something wrong with the kid. Fortunately for me my mother and father did a lot to help me through my middle school days. I was constantly bullied. I'd always come home with my lunch money stolen or a black eye or my homework torn up. I think it is on te parents at this point.
Oh well, lock the kid up for life and leave it at that.
because the correct answer to a beta kid who's been tortured psychologically until they act out is to put them in an institution where they will be tortured psychologically for the rest of their lives? herpderp.
|
On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed.
Someone's dead dude.
Whether that person bullied him or not does not excuse that. Youn people do stupid shit, sometimes that involves treating other people poorly or abusively. Sometimes that's the result of them not knowing any better, sometimes that's the result of them not being able to deal with their own personal feelings. Either way it doesn't mean they deserve to die.
|
On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on.
Yes the school should give a fuck and should have been doing everything possible to stop the bullying. But to seriously say murdering someone for bullying you is justifiable is kind of mind blowing. Saying people handle things differently doesn't make this justifiable or excusable.
|
On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed.
That's actually not true. The female that was shot wasn't even at the table the 'bullies'(I pointed out earlier that people who actually go to the school are saying this isn't the case, he wasn't bullied, it was about something else), she was hit by a stray shot. It also happened in the cafeteria at a very busy time(breakfast+PSEO kids waiting for bus to take them to other facilities), so just because people weren't shot doesn't mean they weren't involved. Seeing friends of mine shot in school would very much make me 'involved' whether I am physically harmed by the event or not.
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 05:22 ranshaked wrote:
I don't understand these people that go an shoot kids because they were bullied.
It disgusts me that family or friends didn't notice something wrong with the kid. Fortunately for me my mother and father did a lot to help me through my middle school days. I was constantly bullied. I'd always come home with my lunch money stolen or a black eye or my homework torn up. I think it is on te parents at this point.
Oh well, lock the kid up for life and leave it at that.
because the correct answer to a beta kid who's been tortured psychologically until they act out is to put them in an institution where they will be tortured psychologically for the rest of their lives? herpderp.[/QUOTE]
|
On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order".
Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands).
What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries?
What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying.
there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined.
I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
|
Let's just hope this guy didn't play video games, or the media will have a field day with the implications
|
On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on.
Wow. Just wow.
|
On February 28 2012 05:23 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. That's actually not true. The female that was shot wasn't even at the table the 'bullies'(I pointed out earlier that people who actually go to the school are saying this isn't the case, he wasn't bullied, it was about something else), she was hit by a stray shot. It also happened in the cafeteria at a very busy time(breakfast+PSEO kids waiting for bus to take them to other facilities), so just because people weren't shot doesn't mean they weren't involved. Seeing friends of mine shot in school would very much make me 'involved' whether I am physically harmed by the event or not.
If that's the case then yeah that's quite unfortunate and sad.
|
On February 28 2012 05:23 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. That's actually not true. The female that was shot wasn't even at the table the 'bullies'(I pointed out earlier that people who actually go to the school are saying this isn't the case, he wasn't bullied, it was about something else), she was hit by a stray shot. It also happened in the cafeteria at a very busy time(breakfast+PSEO kids waiting for bus to take them to other facilities), so just because people weren't shot doesn't mean they weren't involved. Seeing friends of mine shot in school would very much make me 'involved' whether I am physically harmed by the event or not.
The kid who died was dating the shooters ex girlfriend. I added that post in a couple pages ago. bottom of 4th page I think.
|
This school is about half an hour drive from my high school...wow. Scary.
|
On February 28 2012 05:25 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:22 ranshaked wrote:
I don't understand these people that go an shoot kids because they were bullied.
It disgusts me that family or friends didn't notice something wrong with the kid. Fortunately for me my mother and father did a lot to help me through my middle school days. I was constantly bullied. I'd always come home with my lunch money stolen or a black eye or my homework torn up. I think it is on te parents at this point.
Oh well, lock the kid up for life and leave it at that. because the correct answer to a beta kid who's been tortured psychologically until they act out is to put them in an institution where they will be tortured psychologically for the rest of their lives? herpderp.
[/QUOTE]
If you take a life. You do not deserve to live yours outside of a prison.
A lot of people are bullied on a daily basis and don't go on a shooting rampage. Obviously the kid that did the shooting has problems and isn't fit for society, so leave him in prison with other people like him.
|
On February 28 2012 05:23 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. Yes the school should give a fuck and should have been doing everything possible to stop the bullying. But to seriously say murdering someone for bullying you is justifiable is kind of mind blowing. Saying people handle things differently doesn't make this justifiable or excusable. To each their own I guess then.
|
On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. Show nested quote +there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate.
Why are humans capable of being manipulated? why do humans choose their partners based on qualities like "money and ability to provide"? I don't see any hot women falling in love with homeless people. Choose to ignore reality as you like.
you're speaking of intrapersonal behavior? Please google the definition of intrapersonal.. Additionally, behavior on a macrocosmic scale of humanity is going to be the same as behavior on a microcosmic scale, precisely because countries are made up of individual humans.
|
On February 28 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. Someone's dead dude. Whether that person bullied him or not does not excuse that. Youn people do stupid shit, sometimes that involves treating other people poorly or abusively. Sometimes that's the result of them not knowing any better, sometimes that's the result of them not being able to deal with their own personal feelings. Either way it doesn't mean they deserve to die.
Yes young people do stupid shit. This an example of one of them only that the consequences of this one turned out to be more serious than bullying. It's an unfortunate incident but if only bullies (i was proven wrong) were involved, then it would've been fortunate that no innocent was harmed in the conflict.
|
On February 28 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:10 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant. Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement. There's no such thing as "old enough to know better." It's purely situational. A 30 year old grown adult taken out of a tribal village won't "know better" in our society because behavior is environmentally dictated. "Knowing better" is a matter of conditioning the right societal interests into the kids. Which is also why you are wrong if you think children just naturally can progress into societal bullying. Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people. It is the exact same kind of trauma that bullies inflict on others. If you're old enough to know better you should be able to broaden your view about this. Ignorance to the situation isn't just not condoning bullying.
So are you saying that these bullies only experience their home environments? Sure that may be the primary environment but they see people acting differently all around them. They're old enough to take cues and initiative to stand up for themselves and be better than that. When my life was a living hell, I never, NEVER took it out on anyone else because I knew that it felt awful and wouldn't wish that on someone else. I only ever lashed out in defense, and when my friends, who had worse problems than even I did, wanted to be comforted or needed help, I listened despite adults teaching me that the best way to cope with your problems was to ignore them. Know what I did? I looked around, in books, in media, on the internet, and saw people coping with their problems WITHOUT pushing their feelings on other people. In today's world there is no excuse for not having access to these things. Information is everywhere. I'm sorry for the harsh tone, but I was trying to be nice and saying we can agree to disagree, even admitting I may be in the wrong, but you just keep pushing, and pushing, and calling me ignorant, and narrow, and wrong. You don't let up. Where have we seen this behavior before? Oh right, that's exactly what bullies do, and that's why these kids snap!
|
On February 28 2012 05:23 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. Yes the school should give a fuck and should have been doing everything possible to stop the bullying. But to seriously say murdering someone for bullying you is justifiable is kind of mind blowing. Saying people handle things differently doesn't make this justifiable or excusable.
first of all, there are degrees of bullying.
i think if anyone were bullied (that varies for people) to a certain degree, then they would snap and kill someone, especially if their family and environment didn't care about him.
|
I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio.
|
This kid seems like a psycho, not just a victim of bullying. Here's a post that he made on his facebook.
Describing a fantasy rampage, the Facebook user wrote, “So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. ‘Stay back!’ The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. ‘Oh God, have mercy, please!’” It then ends, “Die, all of you.” Read the full Facebook post: In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of “why do we exist?” His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, all those ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn’t care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer’s Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/27/facebook-message-apparently-from-suspected-ohio-high-school-shooter-die-all-of-you/#ixzz1ncGGsixY
|
I think that very most shootings like that are caused by bullies. That is why you can´t do shit about it.
|
On February 28 2012 05:28 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate.
Working on my Master's in psych currently, but sure, atleast I didn't make up stuff. I understand that there is genetic predisposition to some of the pieces of bullying (violence, oppression, alpha/beta interaction), but the entirety of this situation is psychological bullying that has practically no place in the animal kingdom. Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction.
Boiling down my opinion to "mystical" is an inane strawman. You fabricated a lie to support your point and I dismissed the point.
Genetics give you a predisposition to many things but are not more effective than conditioning for societal interaction. Period. Anyone who took psych 101 would understand this. The split identical twin studies show that while they're very similar physically, their opinions and ideas on the world and general are vastly determined by who raised them.
edit: I'm obviously speaking in the general, here, as there are obviously extreme cases of genetic predisposition to erratic and uncontrollable behavior as per your socio- and psychopaths. The average child, on the other hand, is product of their environment for their behavior.
|
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. I hope the dead one gets a Darwin award.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit.
Guess why pepole become crazy and develop problems in the first place.
|
On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote:
I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio.
Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page:
So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you.
We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too.
|
On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote:
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them.
You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad?
Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose.
|
This is why bullying needs to be stopped early
|
On February 28 2012 05:33 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote:
I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page: Show nested quote +So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too.
I would write things along those lines back when I was going through my hell. Does that make me psychotic? Perhaps this is just an aftereffect of the bullying, an attempt to make himself feel powerful however he can? Could go either way I suppose. Hmm...we shall have to wait and see.
|
If he was specifically targeting certain kids then, I'm sorry, but this shooter kid is a total moron. No reason to cause a ruckus and shoot up your high school. Just follow the bully on his way home and at least hope to get away with it without possibly hurting innocent people.
|
On February 28 2012 05:00 red_ wrote:
This happened at my high school... I'm sure this sentiment is shared by plenty of people who's schools later became the targets of armed violence, but I must say I never thought it would happen at ours. To make things worse, my niece was within a few feet of the shooting(thankfully unharmed) and good friends with one of the injured. The victim that was fatally shot worked at a bowling alley I go to every now and then =/. From what I've been told this is not about bullying, but actually about a drug issue(sounds like someone got screwed on a deal, this is 2nd hand information from the students at the school I have connections to).
I'm not completely broken up about it, but it is a pretty big shakeup when something like this happens 'at home.'
DO tell us more, since you're likely to know more about what really happened, not the media-filtered version of the story that already has drama added. I'd like to hear more about this.
|
I'll be totally honest, if all bullies had feared this happening to them, maybe bullying would be self policing? I in no way condone what he did, but perhaps even if it happened more some good might come out of it. Would you pick on someone if you knew it'd result in you getting shot? Not likely...
|
On February 28 2012 05:35 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:33 HULKAMANIA wrote:On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote:
I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page: So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too. I would write things along those lines back when I was going through my hell. Does that make me psychotic? Perhaps this is just an aftereffect of the bullying, an attempt to make himself feel powerful however he can? Could go either way I suppose. Hmm...we shall have to wait and see.
Yeah, if only there were someone in this thread suggesting that everyone quit knee-jerk victim blaming and wait around to see what actual facts surface...
|
On February 28 2012 05:28 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote:
It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. Someone's dead dude. Whether that person bullied him or not does not excuse that. Youn people do stupid shit, sometimes that involves treating other people poorly or abusively. Sometimes that's the result of them not knowing any better, sometimes that's the result of them not being able to deal with their own personal feelings. Either way it doesn't mean they deserve to die. Yes young people do stupid shit. This an example of one of them only that the consequences of this one turned out to be more serious than bullying. It's an unfortunate incident but if only bullies (i was proven wrong) were involved, then it would've been fortunate that no innocent was harmed in the conflict.
There is a fine line here. What about the teachers who let the bullying go on without intervening? (In my experience it's always pretty obvious which students are getting bullied) What about the other students who didn't intervene or go to the school administration when they saw the bullying going on, are they innocent? If they aren't innocent, surely they are guilty at least in some regard are they not? If they are guilty, is it also not sad if they get killed? What about the parents of the bullies, who let their children become bullies? What about the parents of the bullied kid, who didn't intervene to stop their son's bullying or try to move him to another school? If he shot any of them, would they deserve it too?
Don't be so quick to judge who is innocent and who is not; the world is not black and white. It takes more than a handful of people to create an incident like this; it takes an entire community of people actively ignoring the issue or pretending like it doesn't exist. Maybe they didn't actively push the kid to the edge, but they aren't exactly innocent either.
What is true is that people are dead and gravely wounded, and the life of this bullied kid is effectively forfeit. There's nothing about this that isn't utterly sad.
|
There really is no excuse for this. Even though I don't condone bullying at ALL, (considering I once was bullied) the bullies did not deserve to die or be shot at. A sad situation all around.
|
On February 28 2012 05:37 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:35 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 05:33 HULKAMANIA wrote:On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote:
I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page: So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too. I would write things along those lines back when I was going through my hell. Does that make me psychotic? Perhaps this is just an aftereffect of the bullying, an attempt to make himself feel powerful however he can? Could go either way I suppose. Hmm...we shall have to wait and see. Yeah, if only there were someone in this thread suggesting that everyone quit knee-jerk victim blaming and wait around to see what actual facts surface...
Well I never stated this but I have been basing my posts on a pretty big IF. With new information being stated, it might look like myself and a lot of the other people here are going to look pretty silly...
|
On February 28 2012 05:35 Yacobs wrote:
If he was specifically targeting certain kids then, I'm sorry, but this shooter kid is a total moron. No reason to cause a ruckus and shoot up your high school. Just follow the bully on his way home and at least hope to get away with it without possibly hurting innocent people. Once you kill people your life is over anyways so nn to run away, he even turned himself in shortly after the shooting happened so doing it in the school was appropriate for him. Also he probably thought it through that the bullies have less chance of escape in the confinement of the cafeteria or w/e.
|
On February 28 2012 05:25 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Let's just hope this guy didn't play video games, or the media will have a field day with the implications
You're probably right..
Sad to see this happen.. If something scares me it is someone shooting another person for something that could have been resolved in another wya.
|
On February 28 2012 05:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote:
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad? Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose.
Not at all, the circumstances are completely different. 99% of the time when a case of (childhood) bullying is reported in a school both parties are punished equally (if at all) and the bullying only gets worse. It's obvious that some people will reach a breaking point from the massive massive amount of abuse that the system not only fails to prevent but actually perpetuates through punishing victims and making them feel like the bullying is their fault. If a sadistic human being makes a conscious effort to try and push someone towards this point and they happen suffer the consequences when that person finally snaps, they only brought it on themselves through stupidity, and not only do i not feel sorry for them, but the world is probably a better place with them not in it.
|
On February 28 2012 05:37 HereBeDragons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:00 red_ wrote:
This happened at my high school... I'm sure this sentiment is shared by plenty of people who's schools later became the targets of armed violence, but I must say I never thought it would happen at ours. To make things worse, my niece was within a few feet of the shooting(thankfully unharmed) and good friends with one of the injured. The victim that was fatally shot worked at a bowling alley I go to every now and then =/. From what I've been told this is not about bullying, but actually about a drug issue(sounds like someone got screwed on a deal, this is 2nd hand information from the students at the school I have connections to).
I'm not completely broken up about it, but it is a pretty big shakeup when something like this happens 'at home.' DO tell us more, since you're likely to know more about what really happened, not the media-filtered version of the story that already has drama added. I'd like to hear more about this.
I would also like to know more, because if this is true, then we have all been REALLY missing the point.
|
On February 28 2012 05:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:28 Spieltor wrote:On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate. Working on my Master's in psych currently, but sure, atleast I didn't make up stuff. I understand that there is genetic predisposition to some of the pieces of bullying (violence, oppression, alpha/beta interaction), but the entirety of this situation is psychological bullying that has practically no place in the animal kingdom. Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction. Boiling down my opinion to "mystical" is an inane strawman. You fabricated a lie to support your point and I dismissed the point. Genetics give you a predisposition to many things but are not more effective than conditioning for societal interaction. Period. Anyone who took psych 101 would understand this. The split identical twin studies show that while they're very similar physically, their opinions and ideas on the world and general are vastly determined by who raised them. edit: I'm obviously speaking in the general, here, as there are obviously extreme cases of genetic predisposition to erratic and uncontrollable behavior as per your socio- and psychopaths. The average child, on the other hand, is product of their environment for their behavior.
I'd say to return your degree and go back to school and actually study this time.
Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction.
dolphins, chickens, and apes are examples of the same human behavior you think is so singular. you realize dolphins rape, murder, kidnap, bully, and have sex with animals from different species? humans are not unique, because their behavior is driven by genetics. dolphins alone should prove that. hell, chickens aren't even in the same groups as dolphins or man but they bully like mad. I actually grew up on a farm.
no further arguments you have will be read or considered by me.
edit: I realize you'll will have an argument with the dolphin bit so I'll state it thus: Dolphins evolved via genetics and are exhibiting the same social behaviors of humans. humans evolved via genetics and exhibit the same social behaviors as dolphins. The common link is the building blocks of life.
|
On February 28 2012 05:37 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'll be totally honest, if all bullies had feared this happening to them, maybe bullying would be self policing? I in no way condone what he did, but perhaps even if it happened more some good might come out of it. Would you pick on someone if you knew it'd result in you getting shot? Not likely...
Well...yeah...but that sort of logic carries over to everything. Should stealing a candy bar from a gas station when you're a kid get you sentenced to a hanging? I bet more kids would stop stealing candy bars right?
|
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this?
|
I live rather close, so for all those saying that the bullies got what was coming are total morons.
Bullying is not punishable by taking lives and causing fear. The HS is located next to the elementary school and middle school. How schools and teachers handle bullying is the problem.
|
On February 28 2012 05:40 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:25 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Let's just hope this guy didn't play video games, or the media will have a field day with the implications You're probably right.. Sad to see this happen.. If something scares me it is someone shooting another person for something that could have been resolved in another wya. What other way could it have been resolved? The school didn't care. Should the shooter have just committed suicide?
|
On February 28 2012 05:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote:
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad? Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose.
A lot of people on TL, for whatever reason, are all about applying the death penalty to minors who mistreat other minors.
|
On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this?
What - it's wrong to feel sympathy for everyone...?
|
The important difference is the one between explanation and justification.
The shooting is easily explainable. A bullied person who doesn't get support from anyone - parents, teachers, classmates, friends - lives in hell. We don't know how heavy the bullying was but to cause such a reaction it needs a psycho or some heavy bullying.
It's never justified though. From the point of view of the law, or from what morals tell us.
Reality is just, this is bound to happen if the problem isn't adressed. Sad sad day.
|
On February 28 2012 05:43 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this? What - it's wrong to feel sympathy for everyone...?
sympathy for everyone doesn't make people feel safer.
|
On February 28 2012 05:43 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this? What - it's wrong to feel sympathy for everyone...?
Nope. It's not. Now go back to the start of the thread and read how many posts completely deny sympathy to teenagers who were shot. That's who zalz is talking to.
|
On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this?
Im willing to bet that the psychological "trauma" of a gunshot wound is significantly less then having a lifetime of psychological and emotional damage caused by a few years of bullying in highschool.
|
On February 28 2012 05:46 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this? Im willing to bet that the psychological "trauma" of a gunshot wound is significantly less then having a lifetime of psychological and emotional damage caused by a few years of bullying in highschool.
Maybe in your case. You seem to have "survived" bullying with a massive, emotionally debilitating chip on your shoulder. I don't think that's the norm, however.
|
On February 28 2012 05:45 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:43 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this? What - it's wrong to feel sympathy for everyone...? Nope. It's not. Now go back to the start of the thread and read how many posts completely deny sympathy to teenagers who were shot. That's who zalz is talking to.
I know...I know...it's sad no matter how you swing it...
|
On February 28 2012 05:46 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:42 zalz wrote:
Bullying is wrong.
So let's give understanding to someone that will cause more trauma than any bully could ever hope to do.
One kid dead, 4 kids wounded. How many more traumatized? What did any of them ever do to deserve this? Im willing to bet that the psychological "trauma" of a gunshot wound is significantly less then having a lifetime of psychological and emotional damage caused by a few years of bullying in highschool.
Oh come on, the kids at that school and those who were shot could just as easily (and I'd argue are more likely to) suffer years and years of emotional damage.
|
On February 28 2012 05:41 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:28 Spieltor wrote:On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate. Working on my Master's in psych currently, but sure, atleast I didn't make up stuff. I understand that there is genetic predisposition to some of the pieces of bullying (violence, oppression, alpha/beta interaction), but the entirety of this situation is psychological bullying that has practically no place in the animal kingdom. Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction. Boiling down my opinion to "mystical" is an inane strawman. You fabricated a lie to support your point and I dismissed the point. Genetics give you a predisposition to many things but are not more effective than conditioning for societal interaction. Period. Anyone who took psych 101 would understand this. The split identical twin studies show that while they're very similar physically, their opinions and ideas on the world and general are vastly determined by who raised them. edit: I'm obviously speaking in the general, here, as there are obviously extreme cases of genetic predisposition to erratic and uncontrollable behavior as per your socio- and psychopaths. The average child, on the other hand, is product of their environment for their behavior. I'd say to return your degree and go back to school and actually study this time. Show nested quote + Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction. dolphins, chickens, and apes are examples of the same human behavior you think is so singular. you realize dolphins rape, murder, kidnap, bully, and have sex with animals from different species? humans are not unique, because their behavior is driven by genetics. dolphins alone should prove that. hell, chickens aren't even in the same groups as dolphins or man but they bully like mad. I actually grew up on a farm. no further arguments you have will be read or considered by me. edit: I realize you'll will have an argument with the dolphin bit so I'll state it thus: Dolphins evolved via genetics and are exhibiting the same social behaviors of humans. humans evolved via genetics and exhibit the same social behaviors as dolphins. The common link is the building blocks of life.
Yeah, humans are animals, but school bullying is much more complex than dolphin bullying. I'm surprised someone would even make this a point. It's ludicrous, not because humans are exempt from animal behavior -- far from it. Our behavior is just so much more stupidly complicated for reasons associated with our cognitive advancement. Animals don't type on computers or have active cognitive reasoning with themselves about the actions they take.
|
Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies
|
How the fuq did a kid had easily access to a gun?
Oh...wait....United States :/
User was warned for this post
|
On February 28 2012 05:43 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote:
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad? Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose. A lot of people on TL, for whatever reason, are all about applying the death penalty to minors who mistreat other minors.
A lot of people on TL, for whatever reason, are all about not understanding, then misrepresenting others arguments in pointless flame posts, for the sole reason of increasing their post count.
|
Thank you to whoever put up the warning; that sums things up nicely...
|
On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies
I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do.
Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways.
|
On February 28 2012 05:50 EL33T_COL wrote:
How the fuq did a kid had easily access to a gun?
Oh...wait....United States :/ Ignorance is bliss sir.
|
Well until the victim blaming in the public school system stops, and cases of bullying are taken as seriously as cases of assault involving adult parties (IE dealt with by the legal system instead of slaps on the wrist from schools) then things like this are just going to continue happening.
|
bullying destroys lives, as does guns
|
Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
|
Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:53 ranshaked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do. Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways.
That's good for you. But as you can see throughout this thread, there are plenty who have very different experiences. Depending on the age/severity of the bullying, it is a much more significant issue.
|
On February 28 2012 05:57 red_ wrote:
Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
Thank you for the update!
|
On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head.
Wow, really? Wtf, its people like you that get these threads closed.
|
On February 28 2012 05:57 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:53 ranshaked wrote:On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do. Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways. That's good for you. But as you can see throughout this thread, there are plenty who have very different experiences. Depending on the age/severity of the bullying, it is a much more significant issue. Exactly, I don't understand why people can't get it in their brains that not all bullying is the same, and that not everyone can take bullying the same, just because you got out of it fine doesn't mean others can fuck.
|
obious solution is for everyone to carry firearms, all the time
duh
|
Pretty sad stuff, and what is sadder is that this is not becoming all that rare. But I would be willing to bet that eventually someone *cough* Fox News *cough* will boil it down to something other than bullying. Maybe he played "violent video games" or listen to "Devil music" or did drugs or had liberal parents. But the idea that it was bullying, oh no! No that is just ridiculous!
Sorry, I am venting to an invisible opponent haha.
Anyway, I really think that bullying should be addressed, but I don't want everything to be handed to kids on a plate, like most things today. I mean, there really is the issue of children growing up with everything handed to them (because of shit like the Human Potential/ Self Esteem movement), and not understanding how to handle a real life situation. Quite a delicate balance.
Also, I saw this brought up in a previous post, I really, REALLY agree that the zero-tolerance for fighting is dumb. I completely understand the idea behind it, but it just doesn't work that way; this law does not mean that all of a sudden students will become pacifists and live together in harmony. It just makes it harder for the kid who is being attacked to defend him or herself. Do they really expect kids, teenagers especially, to become Gandhi 2 and just use their violence against them? No. Even an adult will have a hard time not DEFENDING themselves against a slew of abusers. I really think this whole idea should be rethought (although prevent the loophole of "He attacked me first!").
|
I'm waiting for the interview from the teacher that had the audacity to chase him out of the school. I wish events like these didn't seem so common.
|
I'm getting really sick and tired of these sort of threads popping on TL every other day. We had the exact same debate 2 weeks ago.
|
you know when people go ... i guess the adults will stop the bullying now ... you need to ask a question ... what exactly do you want to do about it?
You see when you leave school the same shit happens.
But then we are 2 generations away from things like the cane so the memory is fading perhaps?
|
This is just sad. No kid deserves to get shot so young
|
A teacher CHASED??? the student out. Wow talk about a hero going at someone with a gun. It's pretty sad that people ignored the fact that he said he was gunna do it and nobody took it seriously if they did these kinda things could be prevented 
|
On February 28 2012 05:57 red_ wrote:
Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
Ahh yes, thank you for the response. I'd rather take this rumor rather than the crap that the media publish. Multiple instances now that it would later be revealed that what the media writes often have absolutely nothing to do with what happened.
A few years ago, I happen to have an acquaintance that attends a high school in Montana that involved someone committing a suicide. It turns out the media completely twisted the story into something else.
|
Seems like this happens so often  . Does anyone know what he was bullied for or how severe the bullying was? I mean it obvioiusly had to have been pretty bad for the kid to shoot people, but you'd think the teachers and staff would do something about it if it ever got that bad.
EDIT: So I'm seeing he wasn't even bullied now? Guess I'll just have to wait until I see the full story later today.
|
On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. Show nested quote +there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
Actually, the man you are bashing is right in many respects. Humans do emit pheremones, the biological imperatives are still stronger than societal, and the nation metaphor is an extension of the group effect in interpersonal (not intrapersonal) conflicts. Intrapersonal conflict is on you. Interpersonal is what we're interested in here.
Normally I agree with your levelheadedness TTT, but here I cannot concur.
|
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Too true, there is so little help for people being bullied that it's the wild west as far as students are concerned. With no authority figures to appeal to, students feel that they have no choice but to take things into their own hands, which is never to anyone's benefit.
|
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!"
|
On February 28 2012 05:57 red_ wrote:
Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
I saw the interview on tv of the kid who was grazed on the ear, notice how he didn't say one word as to why the shooter decided to wait for that specific table of kids. I wouldn't want to admit on TV that me or my friends bullied a school shooter either.
|
It seems like the kid wasn't bullied much at all, but his girlfriend started dating the victim. My best wishes to the two in critical condition, and I hope that the gunman is kept away from society so that he can't hurt anyone else.
|
On February 28 2012 06:18 theBOOCH wrote:Show nested quote +This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Too true, there is so little help for people being bullied that it's the wild west as far as students are concerned. With no authority figures to appeal to, students feel that they have no choice but to take things into their own hands, which is never to anyone's benefit.
I was bullied heavilly in grade 8. To a level where it was so obvious by everyone in the school but noone cared.
|
On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent.
Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro.
|
The problem here is as following: no one will believe you when you say you have a problem, no matter whether you are the bully or the bullied one.
People aren't born bullies or victims. People become either of this by not being able to cope with an ego problem.
Bullies push their ego by treating other people like shit, even though they basically suffer from the exact same problem. Victims are the ones who don't dare to do that and, if you increase the bully pressure enough, eventually snap and go berserk.
But what happens if you go and see a teacher or counsellor about being bullied? They explain to you that "boys will be boys", that "you are an intelligent person who ought to know that they only do it because they're jealous" and that "it will get better if you just ignore it". Well, and that is, if I may say so, complete and utter bullshit. It doesn't get better. They're not jealous. It goes on because it makes them feel good, they feel good by making you feel bad. But you are nice and understanding. You are better than that. After all, all it does is ruin your life.
On the other hand, if a bully is taken to the school's psychologist because "O my gawd, he really pushed that kid into a locker" - he'll seem unbreakable. Sitting there and being silent or agressive, being told to "never do that again, and as for now I'll have to call your parents" or hearing the wonderfully effective "what's wrong with you?", he'll feel that his privacy is being invaded, he's being controlled and belittlet, he needs a let out and pushes two more kids into lockers. All because he hates them for reminding him how insecure he feels himself by also looking that way.
And both teachers and parents are surprised if they are told that their student, their child is being a bully. Or suffers from one, respectively suffered from one and shot him. I bet there were signs, they just didn't see them, or listened to them or deliberately ignored them to protect themselves.
I don't have a solution, I only figured the above dynamics out over three years after graduating. It would have been helpful to know it back then, to try and apply it and maybe make a difference (or getting laughed at for trying, who knows), only I didn't know it.
As for the shooting: I understand the shooter and am deeply sorry he had to suffer so much he saw no other choice, but I still can't and won't approve of killing others.
|
It's funny so many people are say that getting bullied is no reason to shoot someone (which it clearly isn't) but no one is saying that having a bad home life is no reason to be a bully.
|
On February 28 2012 06:26 KrsOne wrote:
It's funny so many people are say that getting bullied is no reason to shoot someone (which it clearly isn't) but no one is saying that having a bad home life is no reason to be a bully.
I believe both of those statments. I don't think you should shoot someone because they bullied you, and I don't think you should bully just because you have a terrible life at home.
|
On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro.
The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference?
I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot.
|
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die.
|
On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be.
By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent."
|
Regarding these "rumors" that this was drug or girlfriend related:
From TJ's online post:
"He was better than the rest, all those ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn’t care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. "
Reading between the lines, it sounds like he was bullied, at least in his own view. And you can bet that anyone who bullied him (whether frequently or seldom) would be quick to affirm any story that it was drug or ex-girlfriend related. No one wants to be publicly villified as the reason that this kid went nuts.
Either way, we still need more hard facts on what his motives were.
|
On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die.
I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. For instance, I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are.
This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out.
|
On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent."
Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims?
How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM??
|
On February 28 2012 05:35 HaXXspetten wrote:
This is why bullying needs to be stopped early
This is why more gun regulation is required, and that's the most restrained way I can put it. A child going through emotional distress and torment shouldn't have such easy access to a gun (nobody should for that matter). It's not like we're a society of people who don't care about bullying, people do care about it and try to prevent/combat it. It's not so easy to do though, it's kind of an unfortunate fact of life. I was bullied as a kid, but I'm on good terms with the kids who bullied me now. I'm glad we were all able to live and grow like humans are supposed to. I'm glad I was able to learn to cope with it and grow and become friends with them. I'm glad they were able to learn and grow. When you get shot and killed you don't get the opportunity to grow and become more than you are.
What's difficult about this is you can't even just throw the kid in jail, society bears a great deal of responsibility for this. If he lives in a society with access to guns and has been told he has the right to use them to defend himself how much can you blame him?
|
On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out.
This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore.
|
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post
|
I think the fact that the shooter is still alive and will stand trial and his case pleaded will do volumes to step up anti bullyign campaigns... if it is in fact related to bullying... not often are shooters in these situations apprehended alive...
Sad none the less considering my girlfriend is a teacher and I just mentioned the other day in conversation that it was nice having a fairly calm year on the school shooting front since it has been a phenomenon as of late.
|
Everyone please read: Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings; Columbine; The Stranger Beside Me; Murder Machine; The Night Stalker; In Cold Blood; Helter Skelter; Most Evil; The Profiler.
Get educated on this shit before you start spouting off, i'm literally embarassed for most of you.
|
On February 28 2012 06:47 kellenr wrote:
Everyone please read: Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings; Columbine; The Stranger Beside Me; Murder Machine; The Night Stalker; In Cold Blood; Helter Skelter; Most Evil; The Profiler.
Get educated on this shit before you start spouting off, i'm literally embarassed for most of you.
Also: Give a boy a gun. Had to it read that one in my english class at school, ironically enough. But the book is as good as it is scary.
|
On February 28 2012 06:42 relyt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out. This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore.
Well there's your reason. Imagine they wouldn't be reprimanded for bullying their colleagues or coworkers. Or imagine anyone would think it was cool. They'd keep doing it.
They're still assholes. The circumstances just changed.
|
On February 28 2012 06:49 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:42 relyt wrote:On February 28 2012 06:39 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 06:33 TanTzoR wrote:
Kids are cruel, we have all been more or less bullies in order to not get rejected. He didn't deserve to die for that. Sad the bullied didn't find any other way to express his despair, I wouldn't take the bully as responsible but the adults. Also if the kid didn't have access to a gun it wouldn't maybe have ended this bad.
I find crazy the people saying a bully deserves to die.I consider that we are on a nerdy forum so maybe a lot of you guys suffered from it as kids. But the bully was a kid as well. Most of the bullies regret after, and become nice persons as adults. The bullies should be punished for bullying, and looked closely on. But certainly not die. I agree with the rest of the post. But the bolded part is far from the truth. Asshole children become asshole adults. I've been keeping in touch with my schoolmates from way back who are now 25-30 (we meet up once a year). What I've learned there is that people never their. Their behavior does, sometimes, due to social pressure or adaptation but they stay who they are. This barely affects the discussion, just wanted to get that out. This is all anecdotal though. Most of the bullies from my school turned out to be pretty normal guys once they got into college and realized they weren't hot shit anymore. Well there's your reason. Imagine they wouldn't be reprimanded for bullying their colleagues or coworkers. Or imagine anyone would think it'd be cool. They'd keep doing it. They're still assholes. The circumstances just changed.
Couldn't agree more with this, I see it all the time from bullies I grew up struggling against. :/
|
On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e.
I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc.
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
|
Children are bad because parents are bad. That is my motto and how I keep my son straight.
It's too bad this happened. As some already mentioned I don't buy in to the whole bully thing. There's probably more to it. If it was bullying then the bully's parents probably gave him a disfunctional home life, where I assume they were either physically or emotionally abusive. In the case of the bullied he was not taught how to communicate properly by his parents, probably because they weren't there for him.
If it was something else like drugs or girlfriend jealousy or what not, then I'd blame the parents there too.
I make a lot of assumptions and didn't read all 8 pages, only the OP and the last page so please don't flame me if I missed something inbetween.
|
On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc.
Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly.
On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig.
|
On February 28 2012 06:57 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc. Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly. On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig. Premeditated murder is on the extreme side of the scale, but my point was more connected to your 2nd paragraph. As a bully, you should consider the possibility that your victim is going to snap if you keep it up for a long time, it's not all fun and games.
|
It's really shitty when things come to a point like this that people are pushed to violence to resolve it. Some kids got nothing better to do but to bully and no one teaches them otherwise, and people ask why things like this happen.
On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
He's being sarcastic lol.
|
1) The problem of those cases is that the bullied only has two choices: tolerate the bullying and do nothing or severely hurt the aggressors by bringing up heavier machinery and fight the "unfair" fight (kinda ironic). When nobody's helping, there's nothing between not reacting at all and the ultima ratio that he used. It's the tragedy of those situations: Either the bullied sustains the psychological torture until the bullies get bored or they react. And when they react, we see what happens.
2) Why is nobody speaking of the true culprits' responsability: The parents'? A bullied child needs support first and foremost from his parents. And a bully is quite frankly the outcome of a failed ubringing from one's parents. Blame the schools and teachers, yeah, but they're not the ones spending the majority of the time with the pupils (especially not individually). Blame the bully, yeah, obviously, but he's subject to education. You are what you are made of (your genes) and what you get taught (parents>>>>school). That's where the problem lies.
oh, @NoSlack, just saw your post. Glad you agree.
|
On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro?
The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
|
On February 28 2012 06:57 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:52 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:41 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:36 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:31 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 06:24 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:18 kellenr wrote:
Has anyone here even read Columbine by Dave Cullen? Don't just chalk this up to bullying so easily. While it might be a factor, it's definitely not the only factor. A lot of times these outcasts are severe bullies themselves (Eric and Dylan were)
And assuming someone deserves to be killed for bullying is... laughable. We've all done it, at least once. And I don't think we deserve a death sentence. It's hard to see an abnormal event through a normal lens. The media is always going to place the blame on bullying because that makes sense to "normal" people. But a lot of these lone wolf's aren't like you and I, so the things that motivate us don't necessarily motivate them.
Never underestimate the psychopath. If you're feeling empathy for them, they're essentially duping you. Never, ever blame the victim. That's the number one thing psychopaths do. "If she just hadn't of looked at me like that, I wouldn't have had to kill her!!" If someone is a bully for years how is it possible to look at him as a victim? Sure shooting is a more serious crime at the end of the day but you're going too far by defending the bullies to this extent. Also don't give me that BS "everyone's a bully at least once" There are different severeties of bullying bro. The fact that you think any bullying, no matter how severe, should be justifiably punished by death is LAUGHABLE. I hope you don't truly believe that. I'm not saying the bullies are innocent, i'm saying they don't deserve death. See the difference? I mean, we don't even give child molesters the death penalty (we should) and you think someone deserves it for bullying? Forgive me if i think you're a big idiot. Nowhere in my post did I say that killing bullies is what needs to be done. What I said was that bullies aren't victims the way you were describing them to be. By the way, "Never ever blame the victim" doesn't really support your post saying "I'm not saying the bullies are innocent." Wow... Really? When i say "victim" i mean the victim of the violent crime, not the victim of the bullying! Were the 13 innoccent people that died at Columbine victims, or were Eric and Dylan the victims? How could the person that GETS SHOT not be the VICTIM?? I guess we have different opinions on this subject but I can't consider bullies to be a conventional victim considering they're bringing it upon themselves with their actions to make someone snap and come defend themselves with guns or w/e. I don't think killing/wounding the bullies was the right choice but in bullying cases sometimes it's just a matter of time and I can sympathize with the victim of bullying to fight back, preferably without guns ofc. Suggesting the bullies brought death upon themselves is asinine. Premeditated murder is never an appropriate response, so saying they brought it upon themselves is silly. On the flip side though, it's generally good practice to assume the worst of strangers and people you don't know very well. If you don't do anything to piss them off, they have less of a reason to come after you when they snap like a twig.
Well they should probably be expecting some form of consequence. With all these shootings nowadays you'd think bullies would wise up. I feel like these shooting sprees indicate both severe bullying and some psychological problems on part of the shooter. It's pretty crazy to go from living day to day to shooting up a school, so there must have been a pretty bad mix of causes for that to happen.
|
On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... First of all source please.
2nd of all, if that's the case, it was probably the last straw that broke the camels back for TJ and sped up the process of him snapping, however with the bullying it would have happened anyways eventually.
|
On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
Russel did not die, the kid who was fatally shot is named Danny. Russel was one of the victims though, yes(and is in critical condition, so this post may need to be edited in the unfortunate event of his passing).
|
On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)...
Since you obviously have so much more information than all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks and not be publicly villified... Prove me wrong?
|
On February 28 2012 06:15 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. Actually, the man you are bashing is right in many respects. Humans do emit pheremones, the biological imperatives are still stronger than societal, and the nation metaphor is an extension of the group effect in interpersonal (not intrapersonal) conflicts. Intrapersonal conflict is on you. Interpersonal is what we're interested in here. Normally I agree with your levelheadedness TTT, but here I cannot concur.
I want a source on this. It has been very conclusively shown there is no proof of any human pheromones. We emit smells and have olfactory sensors, but nothing of the sort when it comes to what is defined as a pheromone. We don't even have the part of the brain that other animals have that detects pheromones.
There are certainly no "bully me" pheromones. Human bullying is such a complex and specific social dynamic that doesn't even really exist in the wild in the same way. It's like saying what animals have is spoken language in comparison.
Also, biological imperatives are not stronger than conditioned ones. You do not walk up to and have sex with anything you find attractive. Most humans don't. That's the most foundational and important biological imperative supplanted by societal conditioning, plain and simple.
On the intrapersonal bit, my bad. Twas a gaffe.
|
On February 28 2012 07:10 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... Since you obviously have so much more information that all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks. Prove me wrong?
CNN has reported this, as well as a testimony from some victims saying that it is true. You shouldn't be so aggressive.
Well, it turns out that this kid is a serious psychopath based on some stuff he allegedly posted on facebook. What a shame that 1, possibly 3 lives were taken. I really hope that the 2 kids in critical condition end up OK, as well as that the shooter is kept away from society where he can't hurt anyone anymore.
|
On February 28 2012 07:05 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... First of all source please. 2nd of all, if that's the case, it was probably the last straw that broke the camels back for TJ and sped up the process of him snapping, however with the bullying it would have happened anyways eventually.
It's interesting that you request a source. (The source is here by the way and is easy to locate with a Google search.)
Speaking of sources, which source leads you to conclude that T.J. Lane suffered through years of bullying from the people that he shot? I have a dozen or two articles on the story by now. I have read the words "described as bullied" and "outcast" and "apparently bullied" several times. I have never read anything as specific as the information that you seem to be privy to. Where are you getting your information?
|
On February 28 2012 07:12 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:10 rhs408 wrote:On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... Since you obviously have so much more information that all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks. Prove me wrong? CNN has reported this, as well as a testimony from some victims saying that it is true. You shouldn't be so aggressive.
CNN also interviewed a kid (live) who said that the group of kids had bullied him (the shooter).
|
On February 28 2012 07:10 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... Since you obviously have so much more information than all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks and not be publicly villified... Prove me wrong?
We're all using second-handed evidences and none of us are true witnesses. There is no "prove me wrong" or "hard facts" here. It's up to the readers to evaluate which "rumor" sounds closest to the truth or none at all. Trying to push people around with that attitude is not going to lead this anywhere near "discussion".
|
I want to hear interviews of kids who were not friends with anyone at this "table of friends," they could all be covering their own asses.
|
On February 28 2012 07:16 HereBeDragons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:10 rhs408 wrote:On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... Since you obviously have so much more information than all of us as well as the national media, why don't you provide more details? The gf story sounds like something that a bully would make up in order to cover their tracks and not be publicly villified... Prove me wrong? We're all using second-handed evidences and none of us are true witnesses. There is no "prove me wrong" or "hard facts" here. It's up to the readers to evaluate which "rumor" sounds closest to the truth or none at all. Trying to push people around with that attitude is not going to lead this anywhere near "discussion".
I was just asking for more details since he is implying (earlier in the thread) that he has his own sources who directly know the individuals involved.
|
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians.
|
I got picked on a bit in high school. One time a guy twice my size with huge muscles came up behind me unprovoked and put me in a headlock choke hold. Class had just ended, the teacher wasn't around, and most the students were still there getting up to leave. The situation for some reason struck me as very comical and I started laughing. Since my neck was getting squeezed, it sounded less like laughter and more like I was choking to death. Some girl eventually screamed at him to stop, and after a minute or so, he did. I continued laughing for a few more seconds, then I turned around and stared him in the face. Still smiling and with a steady voice, I said in front of everyone, "If you ever do that to me again, I'm going to kill you." Then, I gathered up my things and went to my next class.
Now would I have actually killed him if he continued the next day? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't have brought a gun to school to ice the guy. However, I definitely would have resorted to some kind of extreme violence, even if it meant getting my face pounded in the process.
I never got bullied by him again.
|
On February 28 2012 07:13 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:05 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:00 GreEny K wrote:On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? The shooters(TJ Lane) ex girlfriend left him and started dating the guy who died(Russel)... First of all source please. 2nd of all, if that's the case, it was probably the last straw that broke the camels back for TJ and sped up the process of him snapping, however with the bullying it would have happened anyways eventually. It's interesting that you request a source. (The source is here by the way and is easy to locate with a Google search.) Speaking of sources, which source leads you to conclude that T.J. Lane suffered through years of bullying from the people that he shot? I have a dozen or two articles on the story by now. I have read the words "described as bullied" and "outcast" and "apparently bullied" several times. I have never read anything as specific as the information that you seem to be privy to. Where are you getting your information? I'm just as lost as anyone else here brother. I'm not too knowledgeable on this specific story and I've noticed new information keeps on getting mentioned throughout the thread.
Bully and them getting killed is pretty common these days so everything I talk about in this thread is more general and broad.
|
On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians.
This, good lord this. Finally, someone with a brain.
|
On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?!
|
On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?!
yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy?
|
On February 28 2012 06:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:It's really shitty when things come to a point like this that people are pushed to violence to resolve it. Some kids got nothing better to do but to bully and no one teaches them otherwise, and people ask why things like this happen. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? He's being sarcastic lol.
I thought that would, you know, go without saying... never over estimate the power of stupidity.
|
On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever?
|
On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians.
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification.
|
On February 28 2012 07:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 06:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:It's really shitty when things come to a point like this that people are pushed to violence to resolve it. Some kids got nothing better to do but to bully and no one teaches them otherwise, and people ask why things like this happen. On February 28 2012 06:54 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 06:43 kellenr wrote:
I suppose Ted Bundy was a victim too. I mean his long time girlfriend left him, and he went around killing like 40 people that looked like her.
I can't believe she broke poor Ted's heart like that!! He's such a victim!!
User was warned for this post You equate years of bullying to a girlfriend leaving a guy...? You a troll bro? He's being sarcastic lol. I thought that would, you know, go without saying... never over estimate the power of stupidity. lol you get warned for that post and you call me stupid?
|
On February 28 2012 07:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:There are certainly no "bully me" pheromones. Human bullying is such a complex and specific social dynamic that doesn't even really exist in the wild in the same way. It's like saying what animals have is spoken language in comparison.
Also, biological imperatives are not stronger than conditioned ones. You do not walk up to and have sex with anything you find attractive. Most humans don't. That's the most foundational and important biological imperative supplanted by societal conditioning, plain and simple.
Agreed. Bullying victim selection is primarily a social phenomenon.
|
for some reason, some people here are commenting on how the kid that got bullied "couldnt handle his own problems" or "overreacting to jerks" or something simular. being bullied at school isn´t just something that happends to you and nothing more. i was bullied and it fucking tore me appart, i had no friends, no self-esteem and almost socially retarded. That is not something u get over instantly and it is still effecting me today and im gona be scarred after that for quite some time. Bullying in schools is completely misunderstood or ignored, no one does anything about it and this is how it ends. i dont feel sorry for any1 but the poor kid who was bullied because even he was "only" bullied, they might have fucked up his whole life by "only bullying" him or just being jerks. It isnt like that and the sooner people realize that, the sooner something MIGHT be done about this fucking thing.
|
On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever?
I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech..
|
On February 28 2012 07:33 Sidan3 wrote:
for some reason, some people here are commenting on how the kid that got bullied "couldnt handle his own problems" or "overreacting to jerks" or something simular. being bullied at school isn´t just something that happends to you and nothing more. i was bullied and it fucking tore me appart, i had no friends, no self-esteem and almost socially retarded. That is not something u get over instantly and it is still effecting me today and im gona be scarred after that for quite some time. Bullying in schools is completely misunderstood or ignored, no one does anything about it and this is how it ends. i dont feel sorry for any1 but the poor kid who was bullied because even he was "only" bullied, they might have fucked up his whole life by "only bullying" him or just being jerks. It isnt like that and the sooner people realize that, the sooner something MIGHT be done about this fucking thing. Bullying is something really serious and I feel for you, it's unfortunate that so many people in thread downplay it to just people being jerks and everything going to be alright, fuck that.
|
I wonder how many school shootings it will take before bullies take a second thought to their actions, if not out of a realization of the pain they are causing others, at least out of a selfish desire for their own safety.
Thankfully I was never bullied in school. But I still see how it can become an obsession for someone until it consumes and perverts their thinking. Some of these breakdowns in society can be largely attributed to the breakdown in good parenting. It's a cycle which often reinforces itself.
|
On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification.
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was.
|
On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:
No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever?
I found someone who said just that.
On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:
Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on.
justify, v: to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right.
|
On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy?
Completely agree with your first post. Without knowing how severe the bullying was it's impossible to condemn the school for this. The school is at fault to the extent that they may have been too lenient with the bullies (we can't really confirm or deny), but nowhere near at fault to the extent that they allowed a situation to spiral into murder. This would presume murder is an obvious and likely outcome of bullying. It isn't. I'd say society is to blame more than the school.
|
I'm curious as to if the gunmen had committed suicide and cited the bullies as the reason; would there be charges against the bullies?
I think there needs to be a clarification as to what bullying means. I've had people pick on me, but when I think of bullying I think of the kid in high school that a certain group systematically targeted daily.
|
On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Fuck that, bullying is easily preventable in school but nobody's doing anything about it which is the main culprit. Teenagers in school with their puberty hormones and all that stuff is way more fragile then a stable adult dealing with "jerks."
Wit? Clearly the guy as many other's who can't handle the bullying anymore have come to their wit's end.
|
How exactly did he get the guns? Even if I wanted to I wouldn't know where to even start looking to get a gun, legal or not.
edit: rhetorical question.
|
On February 28 2012 07:39 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:
No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I found someone who said just that. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:
Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. justify, v: to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right. This isn't my opinion though, I've said many times in this thread that I don't condone shooting as it was the wrong thing to do. I was saying there that for guys like TJ the justification for shooting is being bullied, and obviously as a last resort I mean like people don't go around shooting after being bullied for 1 week it's a long process where they finally snap and they feel like the only way out is with the gun.
|
On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end.
Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
|
On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was.
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open.
|
On February 28 2012 07:41 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Fuck that, bullying is easily preventable in school but nobody's doing anything about it which is the main culprit. Teenagers in school with their puberty hormones and all that stuff is way more fragile then a stable adult dealing with "jerks." Wit? Clearly the guy as many other's who can't handle the bullying anymore have come to their wit's end.
That's simply not true. Firstly, bullying is very difficult to prevent and control. Secondly, to say nobody cares about bullying is kind of a distortion. There are numerous people and groups who are working very hard to help eliminate bullying from schools/teams.
|
On February 28 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
I'd say society is to blame more than the school.
To me, this is the same thing as saying "no one is to blame." You have to explicitly state who is responsible for this type of thing, or no one is. Clearly a school should deal with bullying, but the real question is how parents could raise a child that would commit these sorts of crimes.
|
On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech..
Thing is, it's not the witty guys or those who know an elegant way out of a tricky situation that get bullied.
On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?
|
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
|
Anytime before 8:00 AM is too early to be at school.
Lesson learned : Always be late.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
Smaller class sizes are not always viable, due to lack of funding, too many kids, etc. And the counseling is an awful idea. Some of us don't want the government controlling every part of our lives.
|
On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information.
Sounds costly, but reasonable. Those are some aspects that need to change. But I'd like to add that teachers need to get some authority back. Normally, when there's a case of bullying being reported to a teacher and it proves to be substantiated, they have a very small margin to act. Their power is limited to talking to the parents and maybe advising them but they don't have the "moral education" prerogatives they need to intervene directly onto the child. And if the parents simply don't care or don't believe their teachers, nothing changes.
Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth?
Well, because we tend to believe humans have more free will than animals.
|
On February 28 2012 07:40 Sofestafont wrote:
I'm curious as to if the gunmen had committed suicide and cited the bullies as the reason; would there be charges against the bullies?
I think there needs to be a clarification as to what bullying means. I've had people pick on me, but when I think of bullying I think of the kid in high school that a certain group systematically targeted daily.
No there wouldn't be charges made against the bullies. Sure it would open the eyes of more people to bullying. People need to realize just how big the bullying problem is, and realize it can't be stopped every time. This time there was the opportunity to avoid it if the shooter actually did tweet he would be doing this.
Its unfortunate that it escalated to this step, but the shooter ended his life today in a different way. While taking the life of one and damaging the lives of everyone involved not only the bullies.
|
On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Mm, that's the whole point. Was seven years ago, and it even scares ME to look back on how messed up I was then, but I've made my point: this kind of thing can really, really screw people up, moreso than some people would like to admit.
|
On February 28 2012 07:47 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
I'd say society is to blame more than the school. To me, this is the same thing as saying "no one is to blame." You have to explicitly state who is responsible for this type of thing, or no one is. Clearly a school should deal with bullying, but the real question is how parents could raise a child that would commit these sorts of crimes.
So if there was no bullying in schools would that be to the school's credit or society's credit? A school in the US can no more be made responsible for eliminating bullying than a school in Afghanistan can be made responsible for eliminating sexism. These are more complicated social phenomena than that. Maybe the source of the bullying was something related to a social construct -- i.e. something society has placed importance on. Putting ownership for this problem at somebody's doorstep is just looking for a scapegoat and denying that you're a small part of a bigger problem. Are the parents partly responsible? For allowing the kid to get a hold of a gun absolutely, but I had very responsible parents and I still did stupid things as a kid that my parents never found out about, they had no way of finding out about, and that would have been difficult to control. How much responsibility can you just automatically put on the parents plate? The schools? Society's emphasis on gun ownership and self defense might have something to do with it too you know.
|
Some of the kids in the school have reportedly been claiming he wasn't bullied.. Said he was just quiet.
Maybe he was an extreme introvert and lashed out on a single altercation. As of yet we do not know, so maybe we should just wait a while before we condone the murder and maiming of 5 people.
|
FYI the headline on CNN right now is "Alleged suspect bullied for his clothes" (which were apparently "goth")
|
On February 28 2012 07:48 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Thing is, it's not the witty guys or those who know an elegant way out of a tricky situation that get bullied. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him. He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?
Aww thanks, man. Yeah, point is, I seem normal and happy now but man seven years ago...wow I shiver to think of it. It was not pretty. Looking at myself back then, I can only come up with the word "deranged". Bullying does weird things to your head...especially if nothing's done about it.
|
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
|
On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 08:09 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools? My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
I agree with this, and I also think it is because bullying is very prevalent in US schools, and it is often disregarded by people of authority in schools.
While I was growing up, I knew of MANY kids who got bullied, including myself (although I wasn't bullied nearly as bad as other people I knew), and the authorities at school rarely did anything about it.
When kids hit an absolute bottom, sometimes the worst happens, it's sad, but true.
|
Shooter is identified as T.J. Lane.
According to a couple sites there is a message on his facebook:
+ Show Spoiler +In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you.
Edit: Hmmm apparently this photo is wrong.
Sources:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/shooting-reported-at-ohio-high-school/?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=9818809
http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/ohio-school-shooter-facebook/
|
On February 28 2012 08:13 liberal wrote:Shooter is identified as T.J. Lane. According to a couple sites there is a message on his facebook: + Show Spoiler +In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. Edit: Hmmm apparently this photo is wrong. Sources: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/shooting-reported-at-ohio-high-school/?hpt=hp_t1http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=9818809http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/ohio-school-shooter-facebook/
Shit, some people are so fucked up. I hate reading about this stuff. That FB message is pretty ridiculous, it's too bad that people who are this fucked in the brain get a hold of guns and hurt innocent people.
|
Kid shoulda used his fists instead of a gun. I've been on both the recieving end of bullying and i've also partaken in it.
In 6th grade we had a kid in class who would jump at every opportunity to get me and my friends in trouble. Long story short.. this resulted in his 6th grade year being absolute hell.
Later in HS as a freshman, A senior on the football team decided one day he was going to make my life a living hell. It culminated in me being shoved into a group of girls who where sitting eating lunch. I responded by kneeing him in the nuts and was never bothered again.
I understand both sides of this problem, and no matter how I look at it.. This murderer was a coward.
|
My train of thought:
1) Another school shooting, what a douche.
2) Oh he was bullied? Well that's a little more understandable. Bullies are douches
3) Well the bullies were probably raised in a poor environment. The parents must be douches.
4) The parents are probably a product of a terrible system that is simply cycling around. Society is a douche.
5) This line of thinking is worthless...
I think putting the blame of this tragedy on the shooter, the victims, or any other person or group of people is the wrong mindset here. The point is we have to stop the chain of events somewhere, whether it be with teacher intervention, better parenting, etc. Unfortunately, it's not exactly an easy problem to solve.
On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians.
It's also a lot easier to be so logical and calm when you're on the internet too. We're not barbarians, but we're not robots either. Especially with adolescents, how can you expect them to be the most logical beings when they are placed under repeated stress, with no easy escape?
|
On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open.
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
|
On February 28 2012 08:19 Kernalkraze wrote:
Kid shoulda used his fists instead of a gun. I've been on both the recieving end of bullying and i've also partaken in it.
In 6th grade we had a kid in class who would jump at every opportunity to get me and my friends in trouble. Long story short.. this resulted in his 6th grade year being absolute hell.
Later in HS as a freshman, A senior on the football team decided one day he was going to make my life a living hell. It culminated in me being shoved into a group of girls who where sitting eating lunch. I responded by kneeing him in the nuts and was never bothered again.
I understand both sides of this problem, and no matter how I look at it.. This murderer was a coward.
No case of bullying is like the other.
There was one guy against you and your friends in 6th grade? And then later in HS there was again, one guy against you? I don't know how your situation was, but your reaction (kick in the nuts) made it seem like you were somewhat clear-headed and not totally intimidated. Not saying that this T.J. guy was, but just imagine he had it way worse than you. E.g. bullied by more people, more thoroughly, no friends, no family to back him up and a shy and easily intimated person. How's that look now?
Again, not saying that's how it was. But from your story alone (plus given the fact that you admit having participated in bullying yourself) you can't say how he was supposed to react or, more importantly, how he was capable to react.
|
heard about this at work today, absolutely terrible. hate to see something like this happen
|
On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was.
|
On February 28 2012 08:09 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools? My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
That's a callous outlook, imo. Shooting people to get attention... there's more than that it imo but even if there wasn't, don't all of us have the need to be wanted ? If you don't get any attention, then you might get desperate and fall prey to insanity.
I mean, you don't go to your school and shoot people without a reason, do you ? Bullying doesn't have to be the reason - generally, there has to be something very, very wrong in the life of such an individual.
If you have companionship, friends, some meaningful relationships, perspectives, relatively decent life, then do you go and shoot people at school ? What kind of a healthy individual would do that ?
The tragedy occurs before the shooting, it's just that people see it when the shooting actually occurs. The shooting is just a culmination point where it manifests clearly.
It all comes down to these callous structures of society, imo. Really, such stuff wouldn't happen if people were a bit more caring.
|
As someone who was bullied for over 16 years in school quite badly, things like this make me feel so lucky. It is a shame because Bullies are 100% at fault but there are reasons for their actions. Victims are just very unlucky and it is a shame that stuff like this has to happen. It's a waste of life. No one deserves to die in this world.
|
On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
I think I can answer this one pretty well. In Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings (The book resulted in a study mandated by congress to study the cause of school shootings, and their social ramifications)
Basically, there used to be very few school shootings, and it's because there was no "script." Originally, if someone wanted to haul off and murder a large number of their classmates, there wasn't an official social template to follow to make it happen. So, in the begining, the first school shooters used movies for their templates. Commonly sighted motivating movies relating to Columbine were "The Basketball Diaries" and "Natural Born Killers."
Now here's where things get really dangerous. Once a truly massive school shooting happened (Columbine) that garnered tremendous media attention, the new would-be shooters had a template -- but not just any template. They had a step by step plan recited to them by the news media on just exactly how to kill and maim as many as possible. This is why school shooting have progressively gotten worse. Because the template isn't just movies anymore, it's other school shootings.
And once that flood gate broke open, there was no stopping it. New school shooters borrow movites and ideas from old school shooters -- not only do they borrow, they expand the narrative, and write an even better template for the next shooter. They feel connected to each other and crave adulation.
But yeah, kids kill for all kinds of nutty reasons that don't make sense to you or I (mainly because we're normal, feeling, empathetic humans, and we assume others are as well. P.S. - they aren't.)
Anyone ever seen the documentary In Coldest Blood? These two kids murdered their close friend just for the fun of it. They made their own "horror" movie masks, broke into her house knowing her parents were out of town, and stabbed her like 20 times. They even filmed her the morning before they did it, at her locker. It's fucking chilling.
read about it here.
He said, "The horror and the pain she must of felt when the blades of those knives entered her body and she finally realized that she was being murdered by her friends is unimaginable."
Or just watch the documentary, it's even better.
|
On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was.
Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery?
If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.)
Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none."
Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it.
|
I don't think that there is a particularly right or wrong response to this. There's not very much in the way of leniency in the direction you take, so I won't really say much in terms of that.
However, I do feel some sympathy for the shooter, as I understand the anger and frustration that more or less builds up. I sort of let that out in video games, albeit most of the time in FPSs, but they were just there for just chilling with friends, not so I could shoot some people up.
I do think that every person handles it differently in the end. It's just that some responses are more rational than others, but beyond that, there's nothing.
|
Is the message on the kids Facebook page a quote for something or did he make it up himself? For everybody who didn't see the post including it, here's the message again.
"In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you."
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it.
Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying.
What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question.
Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
|
On February 28 2012 08:46 ODKStevez wrote:
As someone who was bullied for over 16 years in school quite badly, things like this make me feel so lucky. It is a shame because Bullies are 100% at fault but there are reasons for their actions. Victims are just very unlucky and it is a shame that stuff like this has to happen. It's a waste of life. No one deserves to die in this world.
I'd say the person making a plan, acquiring a gun, and then pulling the trigger is more at fault for what happened here. Or are you referring to something else (the bullying/creation of the situation, in which case I'd agree generally).
|
On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
|
Things like this are so sad. Both these kids lives are over, the dead and the living.
|
On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally.
Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature.
Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your son in the face."
Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for you and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death."
|
On February 28 2012 07:55 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:50 mapexsaturn wrote:
I think that teachers need to be more aware of their students. Perhaps with more training and smaller class sizes. I think that bi-term counselling needs to be mandatory for every student. Kids need to feel safe about stating their concerns and reporting kids that are bullying etc. and I think that counselling as a mandatory pre-requisite to graduation would be a perfect solution to a problem like this. As would it with home abuse, substance abuse, sexual information. Sounds costly, but reasonable. Those are some aspects that need to change. But I'd like to add that teachers need to get some authority back. Normally, when there's a case of bullying being reported to a teacher and it proves to be substantiated, they have a very small margin to act. Their power is limited to talking to the parents and maybe advising them but they don't have the "moral education" prerogatives they need to intervene directly onto the child. And if the parents simply don't care or don't believe their teachers, nothing changes. Show nested quote + Parent also need to be more responsible for their actions as a parent to individuals such as the shooter. If you let a rotweiler off it's leash and it attacks someone, the owner is liable; why aren't the same actions carried out for socially-challenged youth? Well, because we tend to believe humans have more free will than animals.
Certainly true. However, parents have a commitment (at least I would hope they do) to teach and discipline their children not to do stupid things like bullying.
|
On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
|
Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Spekulatius: [/QUOTE]He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?[/QUOTE]
That is similar to a guy who gets convicted of rape, and me saying "its okay, ive been really horny once and was pretty close to raping a woman once"
I think he should refrain from relating that closely to someone who just murdered people. Sounds cheesy, but killing is not the answer. Never.
|
On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic.
|
On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic.
Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant.
I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back.
|
On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
Some people would argue that nothing is reason enough to execute someone (not me). They generally follow it up with some version of the "every life is sacred" platitude. The fact of the matter is that not every life is sacred. But that's getting off the point.
There is no question (in any sane mind) that murder is a greater offense than bullying. But we treat our children like children for a reason; they're not yet of the age where we expect them to act like adults. The adults in the shooter's life should have been able to see this coming, or been able to help him in ways the school system can't. And the adults in the victim's (yes, the victim) life should have been aware of his bullying (if that indeed was the reason for the shooting) and made him understand that the same people you pick on are generally the same people that will come to you first if they go off the deep end.
I was as nerdy as the rest of you in high school, but anybody saying that the shooter is the "victim" here needs to get a reality check. Murder is a few (hundred) steps down from bullying on the morality scale.
|
There are too many people who believe that being a, "bully," means you deserve or are even in any way justified in death.
If I killed everyone who was a dick on a regular basis, am I hero? No, I'm a serial killer.
EDIT:
For clarification, I say that everyone here was fucked. Obviously this kid wasn't some hellbent murderer, but you cannot in any way say that he justified or right. His life isn't great, but at least he has one, which, unless you're very suicidal, is incomparably better.
Sucks for everyone involved.
|
On February 28 2012 09:38 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Some people would argue that nothing is reason enough to execute someone (not me). They generally follow it up with some version of the "every life is sacred" platitude. The fact of the matter is that not every life is sacred. But that's getting off the point. There is no question (in any sane mind) that murder is a greater offense than bullying. But we treat our children like children for a reason; they're not yet of the age where we expect them to act like adults. The adults in the shooter's life should have been able to see this coming, or been able to help him in ways the school system can't. And the adults in the victim's (yes, the victim) life should have been aware of his bullying (if that indeed was the reason for the shooting) and made him understand that the same people you pick on are generally the same people that will come to you first if they go off the deep end. I was as nerdy as the rest of you in high school, but anybody saying that the shooter is the "victim" here needs to get a reality check. Murder is a few (hundred) steps down from bullying on the morality scale.
Yes!!!! Another sane individual!!! I am not alone!!!!
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..)
Just to address this:
I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter.
There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison:
A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person.
B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more.
Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude.
On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death."
First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy).
And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty.
On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is.
And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality.
On February 28 2012 09:33 nimbus99 wrote:
Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him.
Spekulatius: He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?[/QUOTE]
That is similar to a guy who gets convicted of rape, and me saying "its okay, ive been really horny once and was pretty close to raping a woman once"
I think he should refrain from relating that closely to someone who just murdered people. Sounds cheesy, but killing is not the answer. Never.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see where anyone said what the shooter did was "okay". The poster you were referring to just voiced his experience that he had similar feelings once. He's now scared of his own thoughts back then (as he posted later on). Neither he nor I are in justifying the shooting.
|
Woo kinda scary. This saturday when I was biking home from practice a random thought came to my mind "hey there hasnt been a US school shooting lately, one will probably happen soon" and now I read this..
I thought all schools in US had metal detectors since all these keep happening. I guess not?
|
On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty.
Well, honestly, i'm just glad I wouldn't have to lie to her. Sucks that you would.
And I know peoples oppinions are going to be different than mine. It just baffles me that so many people are identifying with the murderer rather than the victims. I assumed (ignorantly, obviously) that pretty much everyone would condemn this, call this dude a horrible person, and express sympathy pretty much exclusively for the victims. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some idiot that feels sorry for a bunch of people that got shot.
|
On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality.
I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe.
PS - these nested quotes are getting a little out of control lol.
|
Bullying is obviously a bad thing, however nobody deserves to lose their lives because of it.
|
On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe.
How is it moral to condemn one person to death when you are not objectively effected? Morality is each to his own, you choose your morality, it's not real and shouldn't be touted as "the supreme right" because everyones morality is slightly different depending on how they were raised...
Best example is Rambo, religious guy tells rambo he shouldnt have killed the guy, rambo flips his shit, end of the movie the religious guy takes a life (which he swore he'd never do)
^ morality shifted
So I don't see how you can say "letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing" when you have a total different definition to morals then I or anyone else.
|
On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe.
Vengeance = / = morality
remember the old saying:
"An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law."
Or something like that.
|
It's terrible news, RIP to the one who passed away. Good luck to the ones still recovering. Okay, now for a serious question, why does the ATF need to send 8 men to figure out where the pistol originated? Seems like a 1 or at most 2 guy job. What exactly does an investigation into the origin of a handgun entail that calls for the labor of 8 people?
On February 28 2012 04:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. man, don't say that. i hate seeing bullies get away with it, and i hate that they do it, but c'mon... my sympathies go out to everyone involved, including the shooter. his life is over. stuff like this is so sad, it just makes you want to cry.
I think the only one whose life is over is the one who died since the shooter was just a minor. As a minor he can't get a life-ending prison sentence or the death penalty can he? Or do you think in this case they can lock him up until he is 18, and then retry him as an adult? Would appreciate if anyone who knows a bit more about criminal laws and minors and such could chime in on what this kid is likely facing
|
On February 28 2012 09:51 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. Well, honestly, i'm just glad I wouldn't have to lie to her. Sucks that you would. And I know peoples oppinions are going to be different than mine. It just baffles me that so many people are identifying with the murderer rather than the victims. I assumed (ignorantly, obviously) that pretty much everyone would condemn this, call this dude a horrible person, and express sympathy pretty much exclusively for the victims. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some idiot that feels sorry for a bunch of people that got shot.
Well, for once, all the information we have until now is that the shooter got bullied and the victim is the bully. It's the media coverage that makes the shooter appear more human and the victim less of a nice person.
And then I wouldn't say a lot of people here (me included) necessarily have more sympathy for the killer. We just admit that we feel some understanding of his actions that (and that's just my opinion) can justify it to some extent, i.e. mitigate his sentence. What he did was absolutely condemnable and I don't see a lot of people disagreeing.
On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap.
1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear.
2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain.
3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. PS - these nested quotes are getting a little out of control lol.
That's the cool thing about morals though. They're subjective.
I personally don't see any justification in killing a convict as part of a court's decision. Don't get me wrong, I still want Breivik dead, I just admit there's no rational justification for it. It's simply my anger at him for what he did.
<3 dem nested quotes btw. what a piece of art.
|
On February 28 2012 09:59 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. Vengeance = / = morality remember the old saying: "An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law." Or something like that.
"Eye for an eye" is a set of morals. It's just one that we don't agree with (as opposed to a lot of people on Earth).
Although to be completely precise, what I've learned from rehabilitation studies on criminals is that a lot of prison sentences - in the extent and the content that they are given (being put away with a bunch of other criminals without anyone helping them getting them back on the right path) - are uncalled for from a crime prevention point of view. So I'd argue that the public's revenge on the criminal is a big part of what makes western penal law what it is. It's just strongly conveyed because the law can't present itself that way.
|
|
|
There goes TL again.
Has anybody ever experienced death of a loved one? Death is the most horrible thing in the world. Bullying doesn´t even get close. I experienced both.
If you must get your vengeance on your bullies get a bat or learn a martial art.
If you want to solve that problem, changing schools is the only thing I know to work.
But killing someone with a gun, probably cold blooded, that´s just wrong.
The media hype it up and I guess it´s the reason school shootings happen so often: If you hear about kids that were bullied shooting their tormentors often enough, then some will actually think that´s a legitimate way to deal with it.
That one kid just ruined his own life by becoming a murderer.
|
This is a really sensitive topic. I wonder what is going through the aggressor's parents minds at the moment. Why did no one call him out on his warning signs? I hope the injured victims recover quickly.
Damn man whatever happened to the days when if you got bullied you would man up and fight after school by the playground or something. I remember when I was in High School this guy tried to bully me, but I stopped him and choked the shit out of him. I was like the hero after that happened (even though I got suspended from the school bus). Nobody fucked with me after that. I don't know the shooter's full story though. Reading the article it definitely looks like he was outnumbered and the stress took him over.
Really sad story I hope stories like these will stop happening. I always get flashbacks of the horrible Columbine incident.
|
On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant.I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back.
While I do pity the killer, I've honestly agreed with everything you've said in this thread, because you are right about the killer's actions being far worse than those of the bullies. In my opinion you're wrong about this being ignorant though. It's interesting that you're in favor of the death penalty, because that issue and your response to this boy's actions are kind of related. Being against the death penalty isn't necessarily about platitudes like life is sacred, it's more about empathizing with whatever situation might have led someone to commit their deed enough that you refuse to see them killed for it no matter how strongly you might disagree. The point is that all of us are broken in one way or another. That you're fortunate to be emotionally healthy enough to be able to cope with what life throws your way doesn't mean everyone is. This kid is obviously emotionally crippled, there can be no doubt of that. You should be able to empathize with the fact that it was a broken human being that committed the crime, regardless of the fact that he was totally and completely wrong to do it. What is it like to live life that way and make choices with that mindset? You obviously don't know, and neither do I for that matter. On that note, it might be more ignorant to believe your judgment and experience are valid enough to deal him death.
|
On February 28 2012 09:59 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. Vengeance = / = morality remember the old saying: "An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law." Or something like that.
There's a difference between private vengeance and justice from a legitimate authority. Calling for someone's execution is not the same as expressing a desire to murder them, so it doesn't really fit the 'eye for an eye' saying.
|
I actually went to a high school in the same district as Chardon (we played them in football every year). It really is a quaint quiet town as described. I work about 10 minutes away from the city now, and people were pretty miserable all day.
|
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people.
"Don't be a pussy when it comes to bullying"
A beautifully prevalent attitude for our country in particular. Too bad this kid happened to listen...
On February 28 2012 10:27 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:59 Jormundr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. Vengeance = / = morality remember the old saying: "An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law." Or something like that. There's a difference between private vengeance and justice from a legitimate authority. Calling for someone's execution is not the same as expressing a desire to murder them, so it doesn't really fit the 'eye for an eye' saying.
So the fact that the government puts on a nice show with a "jury of your peers" makes it morally correct.
Good to know.
|
I feel terrible hearing about this, my thoughts go out to everyone involved.
|
On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people.
bullying is a serious thing as evidenced by what took place. better steps should be taken by schools to prevent kids like the gunman from being pushed to the edge.
|
While this is clearly over the line, I can understand where this guy was coming from. I was bullied pretty bad throughout elementary/middle/high school, only ever got close to fighting someone once, killing though is so absurd and extreme.
I imagine he must have been bullied a lot to have gone this far (or maybe it has gotten so easy to get a gun that there's something wrong with the world O.o), or he's completely crazy, which is possible. Bullies have no place in school, but to kill them... that is worse than bullying. Hopefully this kid's got what's coming at him, I hope the other families can recover, especially the family of the dead student.
|
My thoughts on the whole "people don't deserve to die for being a jerk" thing.
When you're young school seems like everything. If you're ostracized in high school that's basically your entire world. So you're basically living your life as an outcast. Which can obviously lead to all sorts of issues, on top of issues that may have existed before. Depression, suicidal thoughts, murderous thoughts, etc. When you're young and naive you might think there's no way out and life is never going to change. As someone who turns 30 in a week (FML!) I'll tell any youngins out there things change, so don't get too distraught, if you think you need help go reach out to someone.
As people become adults certain boundaries develop. Especially the "man code" which comes with certain rules that men generally abide by. One of the rules is if you lay your hands on another man he's within his right to beat you within an inch of your life. Whether or not he does is up to him, but you don't touch another man in an aggressive fashion or you've basically signed your own death warrant. I think this sort of keeps bullies in check after high school. Nothing like that really exists, or is followed by teens.
So you've got a kid getting verbally abused and pushed around by someone no doubt bigger than him on his "home turf". He sees no way out, no way to change things, no one will stand up for him, he doesn't think he can stand up for himself, and there isn't that social structure of sorts to keep the bully in check. I don't think what happened should have happened, no one should have to die over this. But at the same time things being the way they are I can't say the outcome is surprising either. If things were structured differently, if people cared, if someone stuck up for him I don't think this happens.
I was lucky to not get bullied in high school. I was a nerd (obviously) but being big keeps people from wanting to mess around. I didn't have many "enemies" I sort of just hung out with whoever I liked and tried to make the best of things. I'd also say to any kids out there its possible to be yourself, love games, be a nerd, and be on good terms with virtually everyone if you do things properly. Try and be as outgoing as you can, have fun, you'd be surprised at how much you might have in common with some of the jocks, some of the skaters, some of the metal heads, some of the stoners, some of the cute popular girls =) You'll never know if you don't try kids!
|
Another kid died... I hope that the shooter is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm pretty sure that Ohio has capital punishment.
|
On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back.
The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy.
|
On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people.
It's funny how you're actually defending his actions in your own weird way.
|
On February 28 2012 10:49 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I was lucky to not get bullied in high school. I was a nerd (obviously) but being big keeps people from wanting to mess around. I didn't have many "enemies" I sort of just hung out with whoever I liked and tried to make the best of things. I'd also say to any kids out there its possible to be yourself, love games, be a nerd, and be on good terms with virtually everyone if you do things properly. Try and be as outgoing as you can, have fun, you'd be surprised at how much you might have in common with some of the jocks, some of the skaters, some of the metal heads, some of the stoners, some of the cute popular girls =) You'll never know if you don't try kids!
Yeah my high school had like certain cliques, the "Asian kids" (I'm serious they all sat at one table), smart preppy kids, jocks, average kids, the wannabe gangster kids, and etc. I was always hanging around the Asian kids even though I wasn't Asian. I've always had a love for Korea/Japan haha. Even though I hated high school because of the "social classes" I found that I could release my stress through my love of Street Fighter. I hung around a lot of guys that were really good at Street Fighter in my town. We would play all night and day on the weekends. Hell I even skipped my senior prom to enter a big tournament. It was worth it.
I know I sound like I'm getting off topic, but I'm just agreeing with you that for those that are still in middle school, high school, or even college... find some people that have similar interests. Try to socialize with people that you do fit in with so that they will have your back in case you do get bullied or etc. You don't have to go through school alone.
|
While I don't ever wish to die, and don't pretend to consider myself important enough to hand out death sentences (cough justice system edit: this is in no means an attempt to start a debate about death sentence or anything like that, just a mini tangent, haha), I feel like the entire event was a "got what was coming", just blown way out of proportions.
The bullies did not deserve to be shot. The shooter should not have been bullied.\
That said, the shooter had no right to take their lives away. The bullies had no right to be the assholes they did, especially if he left alone other people who didn't hurt him.
|
It's tragic, but atleast this shooter wasn't all cooked up crazy. And bullies dosen't deserve to get shot to death, but it's kinda hard to be all mushy about it.
|
If these rumors of bullying are true, then I do not have much sympathy here.
If the shooter is (or was) mentally healthy but was pushed over the edge by the bullies, demonstrating unusually harsh bullying, my sympathy is absolutely zero.
Sure, it is completely tragic, I wish it never had to end this way, I wish both parties got the help they needed but my god I hate bullies. There's something about their unreasoning hatred, something about their stupidity and sheer irrational nature that just makes me view them as less than human.
If the shooter was originally a mentally healthy person, and the bullies just pushed him over the edge, I actually find myself hoping at least one other kid dies in the hospital.
Twisted, I know.
|
On February 28 2012 10:43 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:35 oopsyoucantmove wrote:
people need to stop being such pussies when it comes to bullying - it is not a serious thing liek eberyone thinks, the real problem is with the kid who shot people. "Don't be a pussy when it comes to bullying" A beautifully prevalent attitude for our country in particular. Too bad this kid happened to listen... Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:27 Dfgj wrote:On February 28 2012 09:59 Jormundr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. Vengeance = / = morality remember the old saying: "An eye for an eye puts you in the middle of Saudi Arabia sharia law." Or something like that. There's a difference between private vengeance and justice from a legitimate authority. Calling for someone's execution is not the same as expressing a desire to murder them, so it doesn't really fit the 'eye for an eye' saying. So the fact that the government puts on a nice show with a "jury of your peers" makes it morally correct. Good to know.
It has nothing to do with 'jury of your peers' and far more with the fact there's a degree of rationality behind the system that the populace agrees with. Obviously, if this isn't the case (authoritarian state, greater autonomy from the public) this is less valid. The problem with 'eye for an eye' is that it's an endless cycle of retribution: third-party arbitration and provision of justice doesn't follow that.
To deny the fact that public justice has to be treated differently from the acts of individuals is problematic. Theft and fines are not the same, nor is kidnapping and imprisonment, and by extension murder and execution follow the same logic - if there is a legitimate authority in place to issue it.
|
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people.
|
On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people.
He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster.
|
On February 28 2012 10:56 Silentness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:49 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I was lucky to not get bullied in high school. I was a nerd (obviously) but being big keeps people from wanting to mess around. I didn't have many "enemies" I sort of just hung out with whoever I liked and tried to make the best of things. I'd also say to any kids out there its possible to be yourself, love games, be a nerd, and be on good terms with virtually everyone if you do things properly. Try and be as outgoing as you can, have fun, you'd be surprised at how much you might have in common with some of the jocks, some of the skaters, some of the metal heads, some of the stoners, some of the cute popular girls =) You'll never know if you don't try kids! Yeah my high school had like certain cliques, the "Asian kids" (I'm serious they all sat at one table), smart preppy kids, jocks, average kids, the wannabe gangster kids, and etc. I was always hanging around the Asian kids even though I wasn't Asian. I've always had a love for Korea/Japan haha. Even though I hated high school because of the "social classes" I found that I could release my stress through my love of Street Fighter. I hung around a lot of guys that were really good at Street Fighter in my town. We would play all night and day on the weekends. Hell I even skipped my senior prom to enter a big tournament. It was worth it. I know I sound like I'm getting off topic, but I'm just agreeing with you that for those that are still in middle school, high school, or even college... find some people that have similar interests. Try to socialize with people that you do fit in with so that they will have your back in case you do get bullied or etc. You don't have to go through school alone.
I hear you. I can sort of get along with (almost) anyone. Might not be BFFs but I can get along with them at least. My neighbor in HS was a huge nerd too. We played EQ1 when we got home from school. He played soccer so the soccer kids knew him and knew me by proxy. All the girls thought he was one of the hottest guys in school (even though he never did anything with his "super powers" lol). Everyone sort of equated us as best friends so that helped meeting some people. I hung out with the skater/stoner/trouble makers in Jr. High so I knew that circle in HS. I met some guys in health class because they played Starcraft 1 too. I met some more shy nerdy kids in different stuff, had a class with the hottest girl in school and decided to be more outgoing than usual.
Just try and be outgoing and have fun and I think you'd be surprised how far it'll get you. You never know what that football player does in his free time. Maybe he plays SC2 and you can become friends. Maybe you like sculpture and that cute girl next to you does too. Its crazy how many things branch people together, but you'll never know if you don't try and branch out a bit yourself. Don't go overboard and be fake but try and find some common ground. Maybe if you're getting picked on and that big wrestler in your class is a gamer too you might have a big scary friend to stick up for you!
|
On February 28 2012 11:01 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
If these rumors of bullying are true, then I do not have much sympathy here.
If the shooter is (or was) mentally healthy but was pushed over the edge by the bullies, demonstrating unusually harsh bullying, my sympathy is absolutely zero.
Sure, it is completely tragic, I wish it never had to end this way, I wish both parties got the help they needed but my god I hate bullies. There's something about their unreasoning hatred, something about their stupidity and sheer irrational nature that just makes me view them as less than human.
If the shooter was originally a mentally healthy person, and the bullies just pushed him over the edge, I actually find myself hoping at least one other kid dies in the hospital.
Twisted, I know.
are you that insecure?
|
I'm just sad that this happened. My sympathy goes to all involved.
I actually heard about this in History class today.
|
On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster.
My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself".
If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought.
|
On February 28 2012 11:20 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster. My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself". If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought.
He was ready to kill more. Most news reports say that he shot multiple times (missing) at the teacher who then chased him out of the school. He is a monster. And I don't think that the story would be viewed any differently had be been being bullied at the specific moment. Under no circumstances barring a threat to you/other's lives should you ever murder people.
|
On February 28 2012 09:58 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:53 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:47 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Just to address this: I've seen Shutter Island, can't remember the scene though. Shouldn't matter. There are two big differences that I can conceive between the two scenarios which make it a clumsy comparison: A) US soldiers executing concentration camp guards don't act on their own will. It's not an act of revenge or retribution, it's primarily following orders. The vast majority of them won't have suffered direct losses from the monstrosities committed in the German camps (given that they're US soldiers and not fellow Europeans). There would be no need to feel compassion for them because the soldiers didn't suffer in person. B) Linked to point a: the feelings of the "audience", the "moral observers", are of course influenced by the circumstances of the act, especially when it's the story of the small guy acting up against the big guy. The one who always got tormented deserves his revenge. In the Shutter Island scenario, the "revenge" reaction ensues by the hands of a state's executory organ. It's not something that engages the observer's emotions, it's not a person that we feel compassion with. It's an apparatus of state, nothing more. Plus, of course it depends on how it's presented in the respective scene. If Scorsese wanted to shoot it in a way that is critical of the execution, it will influence the viewers' attitude. On February 28 2012 09:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower.
I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. Let me make this clear. I have plenty of sympathy for people that are bullied and don't kill. But when said bully attempts to murder 5 people, I can't, as an honest moral person, say that I feel any sympathy for them. Apparently that makes me some freak of nature. Lets go for a little hypothetical. Say the mother of this murdered boy was sitting across the table from you, looking deep into your eyes. You mean to tell me you could look her in the face and say, "I have sympathy for the kid that just shot your sun in the face." Could you do it? Could you? I couldn't. I think i'd say something like, "I have so much sympathy for your and your loss, I hope that bastard that did it is tried as an adult and put to death." First bold part: That's the thing though. Empathy in that situation is natural. Morals are never, they're a cultural construct. Your morals influence your judgement of the shooting while others let their own experience guide them or convince them. All I'm saying is, your morals override the natural reaction which in no way makes you dishonest. It's just a different point of view. And I'm not trying to convince you to feel differently about it; I just mean that diverging reactions to yours are fairly conclusive as well (the empathy thingy). And about your scenario: I wouldn't tell her that for the sole reason of not hurting her feelings. I'd be dishonest for her sake and I'd be talking to her just like you would. That would be my morals kicking in then, overriding my honesty. On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. And see, there's your emotions overwhelming your morals and rationality. I would say it's a very moral action to condemn someone that murdered 60 something children to death. Letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing you could ever do in the history of the Universe. How is it moral to condemn one person to death when you are not objectively effected? Morality is each to his own, you choose your morality, it's not real and shouldn't be touted as "the supreme right" because everyones morality is slightly different depending on how they were raised... Best example is Rambo, religious guy tells rambo he shouldnt have killed the guy, rambo flips his shit, end of the movie the religious guy takes a life (which he swore he'd never do) ^ morality shifted So I don't see how you can say "letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing" when you have a total different definition to morals then I or anyone else.
Let me rephrase it then. I think letting that dude live would be about the most immoral thing ever. I'm not saying you have to agree with me. But I am drawing a line in the sand, and it's clear what side we're both on. Honestly, I'd kill that dude myself, and i'm not even kidding. In fact, I wouldn't just kill him, i'd torture him. In my oppinion, if you murder someone, you should be killed in the exact same manner. He slit someone's throat? Slit his. He raped someone? Stick a broom up his ass. The fact that you could defend such a scumbag literally terrifies me. Obviously, capital punishment is a touchy subject. But I feel strongly about it. I've read somewhere in the range of 50 true crime novels. I've read first hand what becomes of the lives of these parents and loved ones left behind. They are given something much worse than a death penalty. They get a fucking life penalty. They visit their children only in their dreams. Do you have any idea what thats like? I don't first hand, but i've read about. And i'm not just talking about someone dying thats close to you. I'm talking about someone getting murdered that's close to you. Having their flame snuffed about by another living breathing human being.
You've got to recognize that evil exists in this world. I wasn't so sure. I read 50 books about, literally, the most evil human beings that have ever existed on this earth. They maim, they steal, they torture, they inflict wounds not just on their victims, but on literally every human that knew or loved that person. And they love it, they savor it. The only times these animals can feel joy is when they're taking a life.
Go ahead, spend some time at a POMC (Parents of Murdered Children) meeting. Go to one of those meetings and tout your moral high-ground, anti-capital punishment ideals. I will take no part. You kill, you die. Simple as that. As far as i'm concerned anyway. But yeah, disagree. It's cool. As long as my stance is know, fall on whatever side of the line you will.
|
On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me?
b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy.
I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently.
So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
|
On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
I think this sort of derails the thread a bit. But the problem with capital punishment comes when you execute someone that was or may have been innocent. Where does the line get drawn? How many innocent people get executed before its too much? 1 a year, 100 a year, 1 ever, no number is too high? The justice system is far from perfect, innocent people get locked up and executed, it happens.
I'd think special exceptions can be made for someone like hitler =P
|
As a student of high school education in Cleveland, this reinforces the need to be more proactive in the lives of students. Too often do issues go unresolved, an in some unfortunate circumstances we end up with tragedies like this. It is certainly not worth ruining your life and ending others' over the events of high school, but it is hard to get teenagers to understand that what is going on isn't as world-ending as they think it is.
My sympathies go out to the city of Chardon, and those involved.
If you need help, tell someone. It's hard advice to take, but good advice nonetheless.
|
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
|
On February 28 2012 11:37 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison? I think this sort of derails the thread a bit. But the problem with capital punishment comes when you execute someone that was or may have been innocent. Where does the line get drawn? How many innocent people get executed before its too much? 1 a year, 100 a year, 1 ever, no number is too high? The justice system is far from perfect, innocent people get locked up and executed, it happens. I'd think special exceptions can be made for someone like hitler =P
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
|
On February 28 2012 11:23 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:20 MidKnight wrote:On February 28 2012 11:08 ampson wrote:On February 28 2012 11:05 MidKnight wrote:
This seems like a slightly different case than most other shootings if the info that the shooter actually stopped after targetting specific targets and then turned himself in is indeed correct..
At least he had some dignity to not hurt completely random people. He had zero dignity. Period. He killed 2, possibly 3. Imagine what their families must be feeling right now. This kid does not have any dignity, he is a monster. My point is that this case should probably be looked at as "unjustified bullying induced revenge", not another case of "crazy psycho walks into a school and randomly kills people and then kills himself". If those kids were hurting him and humiliating him in front of other people at that specific moment and then he took out his gun and shot them without hurting anyone else, the story would be viewed differently. Not justifying what he did, just an interesting thought. He was ready to kill more. Most news reports say that he shot multiple times (missing) at the teacher who then chased him out of the school. He is a monster. And I don't think that the story would be viewed any differently had be been being bullied at the specific moment. Under no circumstances barring a threat to you/other's lives should you ever murder people.
If that's the case, then I agree with you completely. But if he just walked to the table of 4 bullies, shot at them specifically then walked out and turned himself in, it gives a slightly different perspective than just treating this as another "school shooting".
Yes, in an ideal world murder is always wrong blah blah blah, people don't have the right to extract vigilante justice blah blah blah, but there wouldn't be a discussion if everything was that simple.
What if every day of his life they used physical violence on him, took away his things, humiliated him and threatened him? What if they did that 3 minutes before the incident?What if they had a knife? At what point would that could be considered a "delayed" self defense from a mentally unstable kid who couldn't take it anymore? What if they convinced him that they were gonna "deal with him after school" and put a knife to his throat etc.?
OBVIOUSLY, we don't know the details or the extent of bullying etc. etc. and the scenarios I'm making are borderline ridiculous, but again, my point is that this is a different case than just "another crazy kid took his father's gun and shot out his school".
Murder IS wrong. Period. But it's really easy to just chalk it up to "kid is a monster" and not think about all the angles.
|
So does anyone know how many years a minor can get for a crime such as this? What is the range of possible sentences? What is the max? Minimum? Is it possible that he won't have to serve any jail time, period, in light of this bully-victim information?
|
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them.
|
On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them.
He murded 2 people as of now.
On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything.
|
On February 28 2012 11:55 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them. He murded 2 people as of now. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything. I think the point is it's too easy to get guns in America anyways.
|
On February 28 2012 12:02 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:55 Ungrateful wrote:On February 28 2012 11:50 1Eris1 wrote:
The term "monster" is not applicable in this case, at least in my opinion.
A monster is someone who would randomly walk into a school one day and shoot at everyone he saw without any hesitaton.
This kid is not a monster. He is a twisted individual who has let vengeance corrupt him to the point that he believes killing his tormenters is the only way to go.
That being said, I do no defend his actions. He murdered 1 person and tried to kill 3 (4?) others. That is a terrible crime, and he fully deserves the punishment that comes along with this. It is sad however that we continually ignore the problem of bullying to this extent, and well I vehemtely disagree with this kids actions, I understand why he did them. He murded 2 people as of now. On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. He didnt legally own the guns in the first place, so how would a ban change anything. I think the point is it's too easy to get guns in America anyways.
That's because of criminals.
|
Just a few hours away from Bippzy . Had plenty of texts from relatives wondering about me.
I hate that our society can develop such screwed up mental and social developments. However, bullshit like Rachel's challenge(google it if curious) are such boredom and bullshit to me that I don't have a good way to act out against things like this happening.
Also, I would feel sympathetic towards all parties involved, unless if the bullies were really malicious(like rape for dominance make death threats malicious)
|
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Edit:
On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid.
|
On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see.
The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way.
So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god.
|
On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem.
I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
|
It is so sad and depressing to see stories like these. They make me worry about how my seemingly completely normal classmates could just snap one day and kill me.
|
On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid.
What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this.
Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P
|
On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:
[quote]
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison?
Yes he should have. I'd like to be better than him.
Quid pro quo: How do you explain your country/state being in line with, what your own nations rhetoric calls "terrorist states" on the matter of capital punishment (and basically the entire western world having abolished it)?
Don't bother bringing up higher murder rates (a discussion that would no doubt eventually lead to the good old gun control debate), murder is murder.
Also it has been shown that capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent.
|
this is so sad... why do these things keep happening...
|
If a woman and been repeatedly abused (emotionally, say, for the sake of argument) by her partner or husband for an extended period of time, then one day, "snapped", found a gun, waited for him to come home and shot him - is that morally justifiable?* Legally, I believe it would be considered murder.
If a robber was breaking into someone's house once a week and stealing stuff, and one week, the owner of the house decided to sit and wait for the robber with a gun, and shoot him when he came in - would people be more sympathetic towards the house owner or the robber?
(As an aside: a lawyer friend of mine was telling me vaguely about a case in which a guy broken into someone's house and hurt himself while robbing it - and then sued the people whose house it was for compensation - and apparently he won, though I can't verify this story personally).
Perhaps no one deserves to be murdered, and no one deserves to be bullied - but I feel in some ways that there is a system to hold murderers accountable for their actions (the legal system) whereas schoolyard bullying is not illegal and has no other structure in place to punish the perpetrators and/or support the victims. Which does not make what happened (or what has happened, as far as we can tell from the reportage) acceptable, really, or at least no more so than vigilante justice (though in a lot of ways, Western pop culture is one that glorifies vigilante justice).
*Apologies for defaulting to particular gender subjectivities, and it wasn't intended to be a statement equating bullying with masculinity.
|
On February 28 2012 12:26 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem. I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
I think there are a lot of factors involved. Rehabilitation instead of making career criminals out of people for often times silly and trivial offenses. The sort of "go F yourself" nature of the country as a whole. The economics of the country, people feeling trapped in their circumstances. Education, health and wellness, etc etc. It's a tricky, weird situation and country IMO.
|
On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god.
Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center.
We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity.
|
On February 28 2012 12:32 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:32 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 10:52 Monsen wrote:On February 28 2012 09:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:36 SKC wrote:On February 28 2012 09:29 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 09:24 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 09:18 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 08:54 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:
[quote]
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was. Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery? If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.) Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none." Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it. Feeling empathy for someone who's had a tough time is natural. Even more so when they've gone through intense bullying. What your implying (with the help of your quotation) is the question if the harsh (family/school) background of a murderer should be a reason to mitigate the sentence he will receive once convicted. Which is a totally different question. Suffering alongside a person who later turns against his oppressors or tormenters is human. That's why the French Revolution is looked so highly upon, that's why we cheer for those blue creatures killing humans in Avatar and that's why everyone (except you apparently) find this event kinda hard to judge morally. I don't think your last part is true. Have you ever seen shutter island? basically there is a scene where american GIs line up a bunch of concentration camp guards and gun them down, which in the US would normally be pretty "patriotic," at least imo, but in the movie it portrays it as a morally wrong thing to do (killing those who have killed). A more recent example of this would be debating if the guy who shot up the island near oslo should be put to death (does that many deaths constitute killing him, or being unable to be rehabilitated etc..) Lol, if anyone thinks that Oslo child murderer shouldn't be put to death, I seriously, seriously pitty them. If hunting children with a high caliber automatic weapon isn't reason enough to execute someone, then apparently nothing is. Exactly, for a lot of people nothing is. That's why several countries don't have the death penalty and why it is a controversial topic. Yeah, I know for some people nothing is. I was just trying to bring to light how silly they are for thinking that. I'm not saying we should go around executing people for no reason. But to think that there aren't some evil people out there that totally deserve to die is just... ignorant. I can honestly say the only reason I like living in Texas is because here, when you kill someone, we kill you back. The awesome state of Texas, where the "sane people" that "kill you back" live. Too bad most of the world is insane ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country. But I'm sure you take comfort being in the company of all the other awesome, sane nations like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China etc. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw! Pewpew- ride into the sunset awesome sane cowboy. I'm well aware most countries don't support capital punishment. I'm sorry I feel fortunate to live in one that does. I know evil exists in this world, an evil of the highest order. And to say someone that murdered 60 children deserves to live to the ripe old age of 80 in basically a retirement home just gets my blood boiling. I mean, 60 children? Like... I dunno. That number literally hurts my soul. But not your's, apparently. So let me ask you this, should Hitler have gotten life in prison? Yes he should have.
TBH it's sort of a silly question with him since there's obvious warcrimes against humanity and all that. He'd certainly be killed by a warcrimes tribunal or a military tribunal if say the US got a hold of him and didn't bring him to trial against the world.
|
On February 28 2012 12:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god. Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center. We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity. ]
I agree we don't have the facts but to play devils advocate here even if they just knew each other in passing (school bus, bus stop, etc) bullying can still happen. In kindergarten I had a kid that pulled a knife on me on the school bus. Told me if I didn't call him that night he'd stab me the next day. So at like 2am I was standing on the kitchen table calling him because I obviously didn't want to die. Dad walked in the kitchen and was like wtf? Didn't even know the kid outside of the bus ride.
|
On February 28 2012 12:41 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:On February 28 2012 12:23 Bippzy wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:
The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that...
If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious??
If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever.
Hindsight being 20/20 for you I see. The real reason I'm still fine with the ability to plead insanity in court is cases like these. The bullies mentally got to him. They made him feel inferior, weak, powerless, and incapable of normal human relation. He hates his life. He hates his life. Why does he even go to school just to be bullied? No one stops them. No one notices. No one cares about him. Obtain gun. Get revenge. It's the last thing you can do that will at least go your way. So yeah why didn't he find help? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the people who need to find help are usually the most incapable. Bad game design by god. Did you know that the shooter and the young man that he shot to death did not even attend the same school? They were both at Chardon High School waiting on different buses that would transport them to different schools. T.J. Lane, the shooter, attended Lake Academy, which is a school for "at-risk" students. Daniel Parmentor, the victim, attended the Auburn Career Center. We have close to zero facts about the nature of the relationship between the victim and his murderer. It's infuriating how quickly we have decided that this is yet another clear-cut case of someone being bullied to the point of insanity. ] I agree we don't have the facts but to play devils advocate here even if they just knew each other in passing (school bus, bus stop, etc) bullying can still happen. In kindergarten I had a kid that pulled a knife on me on the school bus. Told me if I didn't call him that night he'd stab me the next day. So at like 2am I was standing on the kitchen table calling him because I obviously didn't want to die. Dad walked in the kitchen and was like wtf? Didn't even know the kid outside of the bus ride.
My point is that people are extrapolating wild conclusions off of little to no evidence because of their personal feelings about bullying. My point was not that bullying is impossible under these circumstances, although the idea that the shooter's victim was some inescapable bully-hellhound certainly does seem far-fetched based on the limited information we have available to us.
EDIT: And also we do know that the shooter and the victim did not know each other "in passing." It wasn't a simple "bully finds weird outcast kid to bully" situation. The shooter and the victim used to be friends, by all accounts, which is yet another complicating fact that people seem to be ignoring entirely.
|
Very sad situation, thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved in this tragedy. I'm sure more information will come out in the coming weeks but I'm sure there were warning signs with this guy, it's unfortunate no one picked up on it before all this happened.
|
|
|
|
|
by the way, how come it's always guys shooting up schools and not girls.. girls have it way worse in the bullying area, they're tormented from every direction..
|
I feel sorry for all parties involved, with the shooter seemingly being in the worst state before and after fact. I hope, but I know it probably won't, that bullying does become more of an open topic to discuss and assess in schools before things like this happen again.
As a teacher, I know that if someone ever comes to me with a problem, specifically a problem with another student bullying them, I try to give equal attention to both in the form of support, positive reinforcement, and empathy.
Some people here don't quite understand that BOTH parties, shooter and bullies, had problems much deeper than what was shown on the surface. It is easier to understand what the shooter may have experienced, but it seems more difficult for some people to understand that the bullies had their own set of issues as well. Both needed help long before this happened, but apparently because of this "just ignore them" unspoken policy that many schools have on bullying, this conclusion seems all but inevitable in our current society. I really don't want to get into all the other factors that contributed to this as they might derail this thread.
This being said, I have one honest question minutely related...
How in the world do you pronounce the name of the county where this took place in? It's spelled "Geauga" but the sound eludes me... What does it sound like? What's the phonetic spelling?
|
Why do you associate sports with bullying? That's inappropriate.
|
On February 28 2012 13:15 pRo9aMeR wrote:
How in the world do you pronounce the name of the county where this took place in? It's spelled "Geauga" but the sound eludes me... What does it sound like? What's the phonetic spelling?
Gee-aww-guh
|
I don't think bullying has changed, but I think parenting techniques and the way kids are being raised has.
Bullying is being taken very seriously, but there is a limit to the powers of schools, etc. Kids have to be raised from an early age to NOT be bullies, to stand up for friends, and to be strong in the face of adversity.
|
On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership.
What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights.
|
On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P
He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job.
Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs.
Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too.
In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder.
(He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc)
Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet:
http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpg
On the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ...
Kid looks crazy.
|
On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin.
|
On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol.
Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time.
|
|
|
On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin.
The argument against banning guns is that it hurts lawful citizens, as people who really want a gun will get their hands on a gun through some illegal method. You cannot really counter a gun without another gun, unfortunately.
Whether or not you agree with it is up to your own judgement.
|
On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin.
And if he is much larger than you? What if he has a knife? I'm sorry but when someone breaks in (looking to harm me and my family or not) I refuse to take any chances with my family's well being. If I felt I had the jump on him I would tell him to freeze, say I have a gun, and to lay face down while the cops arrived or I would shoot him.
To often does something look like a "fist fight" and end up being a stabbing or shooting. I have been in martial arts many years and I would still never risk a fight with my fists if I had another option. I lost a close-ish friend from martial arts when his brother got into a bar fight, confident because they were MMA fighters, and someone pulled a knife and stabbed him when he was walking away. Never take risks, never fight if you dont have to. Its NEVER worth risking your life over. Running is almost always the better choice.
|
On February 28 2012 13:14 Endymion wrote:by the way, how come it's always guys shooting up schools and not girls.. girls have it way worse in the bullying area, they're tormented from every direction..
Probably because the second half of your statement is false.
It is socially acceptable for both boys and girls to bully boys; it is only socially acceptable for girls to bully girls. Boy-on-girl bullying is relatively rare and more likely to be punished. Further, it is only socially acceptable to violently bully boys; it is not socially acceptable to beat up girls. Victims of bully violence are overwhelmingly male, and action is far more likely to be taken by authorities when girls are beat up than vice versa. Additionally, males tend to vary more in social status than females do; the people at both the very top and bottom of the social ladder tend to be males, which means that the targets of bullying (people on the bottom) will also tend to be male.
Finally, our gender norms generally expect boys to stand up for themselves, and those who do not receive little support and are considered unmasculine. Girls, on the other hand, are expected to seek help and generally do so, without any social disapproval when they do so.
|
On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time.
Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in.
Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied?
And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do?
What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied".
I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation.
|
On February 28 2012 13:56 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:14 Endymion wrote:by the way, how come it's always guys shooting up schools and not girls.. girls have it way worse in the bullying area, they're tormented from every direction.. Probably because the second half of your statement is false. It is socially acceptable for both boys and girls to bully boys; it is only socially acceptable for girls to bully girls. Boy-on-girl bullying is relatively rare and more likely to be punished. Further, it is only socially acceptable to violently bully boys; it is not socially acceptable to beat up girls. Victims of bully violence are overwhelmingly male, and action is far more likely to be taken by authorities when girls are beat up than vice versa. Additionally, males tend to vary more in social status than females do; the people at both the very top and bottom of the social ladder tend to be males, which means that the targets of bullying (people on the bottom) will also tend to be male. Finally, our gender norms generally expect boys to stand up for themselves, and those who do not receive little support and are considered unmasculine. Girls, on the other hand, are expected to seek help and generally do so, without any social disapproval when they do so.
They generally seek help and get just as much (little) as boys do.
The rate of boy on boy harm from bullying retaliation is nowhere near the rate of female suicide from social pressure.
|
It was only a matter of time before this devolved in to a gun control debate.
|
On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy.
We had multiple school counselors too. But they were broken down into alphabetical order. One counselor got A-whatever students, and so on. I know for certain fact my school counselor was an aloof whack job. Not to mention certainly pushing 70 years old. I wouldn't have put any faith in confiding in her at all under any circumstances. If I would have had to confide in someone luckily there was a teacher most students had at one point during their high school lives, that was regarded by basically everyone as being the best teacher they've ever had. I'm sure if someone had some deep, dark shit to talk about he'd be there for them.
You might, maybe kill someone with a screwdriver if you snuck up behind them, maybe. Even if you lucked out (or were some covert ninja) and killed one person. End of crime spree. You got 1 and now everyone is either running or tackling you and your screwdriver.
I never said "no guns blah blah" so invalid point there. I said a screwdriver would take massively more effort to do anything with. A gun is a force multiplier, a screwdriver is a makeshift weapon. You can kill someone with anything if you want it bad enough, doesn't mean its worth the effort.
Your picture proves absolutely nothing. I hope you're never on a jury if your criteria for anything is "looks crazy". Kid obviously had issues. Undiagnosed mental issue? Certainly possible and I'm sure there will be testing done there. Picked on? That's been confirmed by the girl in the interview at least. Brother is nuts, thats probably going to add some weight to your world. Raised by grandparents, I loved mine but I wouldn't have felt like they could relate to my problems. When an animal is cornered they lash out. Obviously I think it'd be rational to believe this kid felt like he was cornered and this was his way of lashing out. Clearly it was a poor choice.
|
On February 28 2012 13:53 Mysticesper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. The argument against banning guns is that it hurts lawful citizens, as people who really want a gun will get their hands on a gun through some illegal method. You cannot really counter a gun without another gun, unfortunately. Whether or not you agree with it is up to your own judgement.
Hmm, if getting guns illegally is easy then I'm up for citizens to be able to own one too for self-defense.
On February 28 2012 13:55 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. And if he is much larger than you? What if he has a knife? I'm sorry but when someone breaks in (looking to harm me and my family or not) I refuse to take any chances with my family's well being. If I felt I had the jump on him I would tell him to freeze, say I have a gun, and to lay face down while the cops arrived or I would shoot him. To often does something look like a "fist fight" and end up being a stabbing or shooting. I have been in martial arts many years and I would still never risk a fight with my fists if I had another option. I lost a close-ish friend from martial arts when his brother got into a bar fight, confident because they were MMA fighters, and someone pulled a knife and stabbed him when he was walking away. Never take risks, never fight if you dont have to. Its NEVER worth risking your life over. Running is almost always the better choice. I'm sorry about your friend. I guess I can't argue with that, when it comes to fighting I'm pretty cocky myself but hearing stories about deaths make me humble.
|
It's a wonder all these shootings occur in "gun free zones". I guess murderers don't care about signs like anti-gun people would wish to believe.
|
On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think?
Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims.
|
Hope this isn't too insensitive, but when reading through this thread I just pictured the poor kid trying to reach out to people on Omeagle and just ended up seeing alot of penises If I was at my wit's end, I don't think seeing the jokers on Omeagle would end making me value life any more.
|
On February 28 2012 14:03 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. We had multiple school counselors too. But they were broken down into alphabetical order. One counselor got A-whatever students, and so on. I know for certain fact my school counselor was an aloof whack job. Not to mention certainly pushing 70 years old. I wouldn't have put any faith in confiding in her at all under any circumstances. If I would have had to confide in someone luckily there was a teacher most students had at one point during their high school lives, that was regarded by basically everyone as being the best teacher they've ever had. I'm sure if someone had some deep, dark shit to talk about he'd be there for them. You might, maybe kill someone with a screwdriver if you snuck up behind them, maybe. Even if you lucked out (or were some covert ninja) and killed one person. End of crime spree. You got 1 and now everyone is either running or tackling you and your screwdriver. I never said "no guns blah blah" so invalid point there. I said a screwdriver would take massively more effort to do anything with. A gun is a force multiplier, a screwdriver is a makeshift weapon. You can kill someone with anything if you want it bad enough, doesn't mean its worth the effort. Your picture proves absolutely nothing. I hope you're never on a jury if your criteria for anything is "looks crazy". Kid obviously had issues. Undiagnosed mental issue? Certainly possible and I'm sure there will be testing done there. Picked on? That's been confirmed by the girl in the interview at least. Brother is nuts, thats probably going to add some weight to your world. Raised by grandparents, I loved mine but I wouldn't have felt like they could relate to my problems. When an animal is cornered they lash out. Obviously I think it'd be rational to believe this kid felt like he was cornered and this was his way of lashing out. Clearly it was a poor choice.
A poor choice that has ruined his future. None of that is an excuse to take another person's life.
Do you think it's normal to take pictures posing with guns and a knife like that, along with a threatening note? That picture (not mine) proves my point.
Kid does indeed look crazy.
|
On February 28 2012 13:53 Mysticesper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:45 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights. If guns were banned then the person breaking in your house wouldn't have a gun either. The rest is easy, just knock him the fuck out with a graceful hook to the chin. The argument against banning guns is that it hurts lawful citizens, as people who really want a gun will get their hands on a gun through some illegal method. You cannot really counter a gun without another gun, unfortunately. Whether or not you agree with it is up to your own judgement.
You forgot the fact that lawful citizen hurt innocents accidently are much higher than the threat of needed to protect yourself.
|
On February 28 2012 14:00 SafeAsCheese wrote:
They generally seek help and get just as much (little) as boys do.
The rate of boy on boy harm from bullying retaliation is nowhere near the rate of female suicide from social pressure.
That's a bullshit claim, since you're comparing retaliation to suicide. When you consider suicide for both males and females, however, the rate of male suicide is far higher than the rate of female suicide.
The majority of suicide victims are male, and the ratio gets even more lopsided when it comes to children and young adults.
The media, however, is much more likely to report female victims, so it's understandable that many people are greatly misled.
|
On February 28 2012 13:56 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:14 Endymion wrote:by the way, how come it's always guys shooting up schools and not girls.. girls have it way worse in the bullying area, they're tormented from every direction.. Probably because the second half of your statement is false. It is socially acceptable for both boys and girls to bully boys; it is only socially acceptable for girls to bully girls. Boy-on-girl bullying is relatively rare and more likely to be punished. Further, it is only socially acceptable to violently bully boys; it is not socially acceptable to beat up girls. Victims of bully violence are overwhelmingly male, and action is far more likely to be taken by authorities when girls are beat up than vice versa. Additionally, males tend to vary more in social status than females do; the people at both the very top and bottom of the social ladder tend to be males, which means that the targets of bullying (people on the bottom) will also tend to be male. Finally, our gender norms generally expect boys to stand up for themselves, and those who do not receive little support and are considered unmasculine. Girls, on the other hand, are expected to seek help and generally do so, without any social disapproval when they do so.
So many assumptions in one post - I don't know where to begin debunking them all. I suppose ,in brief:
I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable.
I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context).
Physical violence is not the only form of bullying.
I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore.
|
High School.. when I think back to those days, I'm reminded of how fragile everyone was. Whether you had no friends or were the most popular kid at school.. everyone was fragile leading us to do things that we would maybe regret later.
Really sad..
|
On February 28 2012 14:09 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think? Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims.
Well I guess every school is different. Down here fights have been pretty common. Maybe around 6 or 7 since the school year started in August. If a kid talks crap about you or picks on you or anything, you just throw a punch the next time you both run into each other. One gets suspended for 3 days and the other gets in-school suspension for 3 days. After that, the whole thing is dropped and everyone moves on with their lives.
I suppose I'm just lucky to have honest, caring adults looking over me.
Our school separates everyone's counselors by alphabetical order as well, but that's only when you need to talk about your school schedule. If it's anything unrelated to that then you're welcomed to walk right into your favorite counselor's office and pour out your heart's content to them.
|
On February 28 2012 14:14 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:03 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. We had multiple school counselors too. But they were broken down into alphabetical order. One counselor got A-whatever students, and so on. I know for certain fact my school counselor was an aloof whack job. Not to mention certainly pushing 70 years old. I wouldn't have put any faith in confiding in her at all under any circumstances. If I would have had to confide in someone luckily there was a teacher most students had at one point during their high school lives, that was regarded by basically everyone as being the best teacher they've ever had. I'm sure if someone had some deep, dark shit to talk about he'd be there for them. You might, maybe kill someone with a screwdriver if you snuck up behind them, maybe. Even if you lucked out (or were some covert ninja) and killed one person. End of crime spree. You got 1 and now everyone is either running or tackling you and your screwdriver. I never said "no guns blah blah" so invalid point there. I said a screwdriver would take massively more effort to do anything with. A gun is a force multiplier, a screwdriver is a makeshift weapon. You can kill someone with anything if you want it bad enough, doesn't mean its worth the effort. Your picture proves absolutely nothing. I hope you're never on a jury if your criteria for anything is "looks crazy". Kid obviously had issues. Undiagnosed mental issue? Certainly possible and I'm sure there will be testing done there. Picked on? That's been confirmed by the girl in the interview at least. Brother is nuts, thats probably going to add some weight to your world. Raised by grandparents, I loved mine but I wouldn't have felt like they could relate to my problems. When an animal is cornered they lash out. Obviously I think it'd be rational to believe this kid felt like he was cornered and this was his way of lashing out. Clearly it was a poor choice. A poor choice that has ruined his future. None of that is an excuse to take another person's life. Do you think it's normal to take pictures posing with guns and a knife like that, along with a threatening note? That picture (not mine) proves my point. Kid does indeed look crazy.
Obviously most choices that involve murder don't bode well for one's future. I've never once in this thread said anything is an excuse to kill those kids. But none of this surprises me with the way things are. It's a shitty deal all around. It's fairly clear to me that this kid didn't feel like there was any way out. Regardless of if there was someone who cared, someone who could have steered this whole thing in a different direction, he didn't feel like there was. If you can't make the kid feel like there is help, real help, that cares deeply about him something awful is bound to happen.
I think a silly person takes pics of themselves posing with guns. I've seen a lot of pics of people posing with guns thinking they're an action hero or something and I think 100% of those pics are childish at best. The note obviously adds a level of disturbance to things. The pic you posted (semantics, didn't think you took the pic =P ) doesn't convey anything to me other than "obviously troubled teenager". That in and of itself doesn't get to the heart of anything though. It doesn't prove he's a psychopath, it doesn't show what's brewing in his heart and mind, it doesn't convey why he's an "obviously troubled teenager". That's the problem, you're sort throwing this blanket of batshit crazy on him when odds are its deeper than that. Maybe if someone got to that deep stuff this doesn't happen. That's speculation, but statistically the odds of him just being a bullied kid that one day snapped are far higher than him being a psychopath.
|
On February 28 2012 14:24 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:09 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:58 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 13:50 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 13:44 PaqMan wrote:On February 28 2012 12:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 28 2012 12:16 PaqMan wrote:The article didn't mention him being bullied? Where is all that coming from? And if you've been bullied so much that you're going to take pictures of yourself holding guns, a knife, and a threatening note AND put it all on facebook.. something's a little wrong about that... If he was bullied that bad, why didn't he tell an adult? Or his school counselor? Why didn't he find help if the bullying was that serious?? If his reason for killing another kid was "I was getting picked on!" then I call bullshit. No sympathy for that kid whatsoever. Edit: On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. If he didn't have the gun he could of very easily taken a screw driver to school and stab the kid. What if he didn't trust his parents? Dad's a drunk, mom works 3 jobs, abuse, etc. Does anyone think their school counselor actually gives a shit about them? There's a lot of possible scenarios. No one knows what was going on in his head exactly except him. Until all the details come out we won't know. Maybe he's a raving undiagnosed psychopath, who knows. But If I look at the situation I'd say the most likely thing is he felt (whether justified or not) he had no one he could trust so it spiraled into this. Yeah, you can kill someone with pretty much anything, but a screwdriver is going to take a hell of a lot more effort than a gun. Just sayin =P He could have walked up behind the other kid and stabbed him in the neck. That probably would have done the job. Saying "This wouldn't have happened if guns were banned" is total bs. Actually I think my school counselor (We have 5 of them, btw) is a really cool guy and I'm sure as hell that a school counselor is going to give a shit about the students that they counsel. That's their JOB. That's basically the whole idea of a school counselor, so that students will always have an adult that they can trust and talk too. In a way you're sort of right. This thread looks like a bunch of people trying to come up with tons of excuses to justify murder. (He's being bullied, crappy parents, growing up in bad environment, etc) Here's the pictures that the kid posted on the internet: http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//98/07/98074c9d3fc9cbd7c831f5978fcf15b9.jpgOn the note he even posted the date, 2-26-12 ... Kid looks crazy. First of all, although a gun isn't necessary to kill a person, you have to admit the total causality would be much lower without a gun. Fucking with a guy who has a gun in his hand is much harder then a screw driver lol. Secondly, I totally understand what your saying about school and their job to help but sadly you'd be surprised how often they turn a blind eye in these bully scenarios and don't help, happens all the time. Do you know how much work you have to do to be qualified and eligible to work as a school counselor? All of those thesis' and 20-page essays and shit that you have to write. They don't just hire any retard that walks in. Turn a blind eye? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that it's possible the kid asked his counselor for help, and was denied? And if he was soooo sick-and-tired of getting bullied, why didn't he just sucker-punch that kid in the face like any normal teenage boy would do? What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for that kid to post the pictures, make the threats, bring a gun to school, and open fire on 5 kids. He didn't do all of that because he was getting "bullied". I think he deserves the max punishment possible. He definitely needs a psychological evaluation. Tell me bro, why are there so many bullying cases where it is known the school didn't take any action? Also on the subject of school, you can't even fight back as a victim of bullying because the school suspends you which is pretty retarded, what do you think? Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this particular case and whether or not the kid was justified on shooting, it definitely isn't justified. I'm just talking in general terms here about schools and their commitment (or lack of) in helping bully victims. Well I guess every school is different. Down here fights have been pretty common. Maybe around 6 or 7 since the school year started in August. If a kid talks crap about you or picks on you or anything, you just throw a punch the next time you both run into each other. One gets suspended for 3 days and the other gets in-school suspension for 3 days. After that, the whole thing is dropped and everyone moves on with their lives. I suppose I'm just lucky to have honest, caring adults looking over me. Our school separates everyone's counselors by alphabetical order as well, but that's only when you need to talk about your school schedule. If it's anything unrelated to that then you're welcomed to walk right into your favorite counselor's office and pour out your heart's content to them. Perhaps if the shooter was going to your school and had access to counselors like yours things would have turned out differently, that's assuming if he was indeed bullied and such, I'm not even 100% sure if all the facts are out yet or anything. 
|
I'm sorry, but while I'll sympathize that the kid died, I'll also say that I could see that kid bullying another. I don't see why you somehow think he would be incapable of such a thing simply because he work and "seemed" pretty nice. Talk to anyone's friend (especially of the recently deceased) and they'll all say the person was nice, or other positive things about them. No one is going to say: "oh yea my buddy that just died? Yeah, he was kind of an asshole. Always got into fights and was generally a dick." Not saying the kid was, but you should never take anything the people they interview say seriously.
As for the person who shot up the place....I was bullied myself and I can't say I ever thought of actually killing my bullies. Maybe if I had easy access to a gun the thought would have crossed my mind, but I always just ran. It takes a certain type of person to actually kill another. He should be in jail for a long long time.
On February 28 2012 13:43 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:40 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
This is a really simple problem, and one that could have been avoided easily
IF THERE IS A TOTAL BAN ON GUNS.
I'm sorry to be very definite about it, but there is no other way or justification around gun ownership. What if you own your own house and have a family and kids and someone breaks into your house during the night? Protection is perfectly justified and legal. I have the right to protect my family in my own home and I will not think twice about shooting someone breaking in to my house to cause my family harm. The problem is not allowing ownership of weapons. The problem is that some people are not mentally "sound" (for lack of better word) and bring a gun to school because someone made them feel bad. Yes bullying is a HUGE problem. No, banning guns is not the solution. Period. Says my constitutional rights.
Well, it is a solution to all these school shootings. Hard to shoot up a school without a gun to shoot with, and the argument that they would just bring a knife or something is just silly. You have to be extremely confident in yourself to take on a group of people with just a knife. Maybe a chainsaw or sword of some sort (which are both quite rare), but not a knife.
I'll agree that banning guns won't stop bullies though.
|
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable.
Either you do not understand what "socially acceptable" means, or you do not understand the difference between an empirical and a normative statement.
I didn't argue that bully of any sort is morally acceptable. Rather, I am stating as a fact that certain types of bullying are socially accepted, as in tolerated or approved of, by society.
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context).
You can easily look up bullying statistics online.
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:Physical violence is not the only form of bullying.
Duh. But which one do you think leads to violent retaliation more often?
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore.
Maybe that's true for you folks in Australia (anecdotally, I've found Australian girls to be delightfully tough), but that's not the case in the United States, which was the context of this discussion.
|
On February 28 2012 15:32 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am concerned that you are arguing that it is socially acceptable for boys and girls to bully boys, and girls to bully girls. Really, no bullying should be socially acceptable. Either you do not understand what "socially acceptable" means, or you do not understand the difference between an empirical and a normative statement. I didn't argue that bully of any sort is morally acceptable. Rather, I am stating as a fact that certain types of bullying are socially accepted, as in tolerated or approved of, by society. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I am not sure how you can substantiate the idea that boy-on-girl bullying is rare (or "rarer"), and I wonder if you would say the same if you were a girl (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you're not, but would be happy to be proved wrong! More girls on TL ftw.) Also, your ideas about gender and social status (even in as chool environment, which I assume is your intended context). You can easily look up bullying statistics online. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:Physical violence is not the only form of bullying. Duh. But which one do you think leads to violent retaliation more often? Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I would argue that is equally unacceptable for both girls and boys to seek help. There's a reasonable amount of pressure for contemporary young girls to be "tough" and tomboyish and to defy the very stereotype you're evoking. Very, very few girls want to be the princess in the tower anymore. Maybe that's true for you folks in Australia (anecdotally, I've found Australian girls to be delightfully tough), but that's not the case in the United States, which was the context of this discussion.
The fact that you, with your United States location tag, feel that you can comment on Australian girls, yet dismiss my qualification to comment on socialisation in American schools based on my Australian location tag, is a further example of your inability to form a substantial argument.
I would also suggest that your unfortunate use of the descriptor "delightfully tough", which comes across as patronising (etymology alert!) and reeks of colonialist-esque novelty would indicate that you are poorly positioned to constructively engage in gender discourse.
|
No one deserves to die for being picked on. I wish schools would go further to prevent things like this from happening, but I really don't know how they could improve...other than like metal detectors and going over the top. I don't really think that's a great idea either though.
|
On February 28 2012 14:18 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:00 SafeAsCheese wrote:
They generally seek help and get just as much (little) as boys do.
The rate of boy on boy harm from bullying retaliation is nowhere near the rate of female suicide from social pressure. That's a bullshit claim, since you're comparing retaliation to suicide. When you consider suicide for both males and females, however, the rate of male suicide is far higher than the rate of female suicide. The majority of suicide victims are male, and the ratio gets even more lopsided when it comes to children and young adults. The media, however, is much more likely to report female victims, so it's understandable that many people are greatly misled.
when did female suicide from social pressure become an issue in this thread?
stay on topic please guys.
|
On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. Show nested quote +there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
Yeah I had to lol at his post too. Incidentally, his theory is also right out of a Simpsons episode.
|
I was bullied in school also but instead of trying to kill the bully's i just beat them in the face repeatedly until they were seeping blood. Never understood why people need guns just to harm people
What are fists made for... This is beyond sad the things that happened but no1 in their right mind would think him being bullied makes it ok that he shot 4 and killed 1. Suspended or Prisoner for life... Not a hard decision
|
what happens when the bullied becomes the bully...then who is right and who is wrong? the first person who bullied or the one who is retaliation bullying?
|
Parents could teach their kids of the facts and ignorence of bullying and maybe things would be different
|
This is very sad.
RIP and may people find this as an opportunity for healing instead of hate.
|
On February 28 2012 22:27 Mouz.Lee wrote:
Parents could teach their kids of the facts and ignorence of bullying and maybe things would be different
Hopefully. Unfortunately, bullies can often come from broken homes or copy behaviors that their parents exhibit towards them, so they probably won't be having sit-down chats with mom and dad about why their own behavior is bad x.x It's a pity, really.
|
An Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
This having been said, you cannot continue to bully someone and not expect some form of retaliation.
|
Dont some schools have rules that allow students to carry guns or something like that? so they can shoot back? or something... it all sounds pretty fucked up if you have guns around that just makes it even more tempting for those whose lives are going badly to just shoot people and kill themselves
|
On February 28 2012 04:34 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:23 rhs408 wrote:
They say he was a quiet, nice kid. Also the group of students that he was shooting at apparently bullied him... if this is the case then my sympathy level for them goes down to almost zero. Being a jerk isn't something that you deserve to die for.
I don't know about these kids, but I don't see why someone who can't behave in society and can't change how he acts towards people might as well be put away, and I don't see why society should pay hotel rooms in prison for these guys.
|
On February 28 2012 22:26 Mouz.Lee wrote:
what happens when the bullied becomes the bully...then who is right and who is wrong? the first person who bullied or the one who is retaliation bullying?
Both are wrong?
|
On February 28 2012 16:54 khaydarin9 wrote:The fact that you, with your United States location tag, feel that you can comment on Australian girls, yet dismiss my qualification to comment on socialisation in American schools based on my Australian location tag, is a further example of your inability to form a substantial argument.
Oh, please. You came in guns blazing with unfounded assumptions about American society despite a complete lack of authority to say so. And then, you completely failed to respond to any of my substantive points, while concentrating your criticism on the least relevant issue in my post. Your hypocrisy would be hilarious if it wasn't so obviously unintentional.
On February 28 2012 14:19 khaydarin9 wrote:I would also suggest that your unfortunate use of the descriptor "delightfully tough", which comes across as patronising (etymology alert!) and reeks of colonialist-esque novelty would indicate that you are poorly positioned to constructively engage in gender discourse.
I would suggest that you take your patronizing attitude (hooray, more hypocrisy by you!) and shove it up your ass. This isn't a feminist echo chamber space where "gender discourse" means throwing ad hominems about the presumed motivations and moral shortcomings of anyone who disagrees with you.
If you would actually like to disagree with any of my relevant points, please feel free to do so. Just don't give me bullshit about "an inability to form a substantial argument" when your argument boils down to whining about political correctness.
|
Sad :-/ Hopefully bullies and the bullied will get help sooner now. Hope the injured will be okey
|
I always thought it was law that guns had to be locked away when you have children under 18. Maybe that just my State and others need laws like this(so not only the child gets charged if the gun came from home)
|
On February 28 2012 04:41 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:39 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:38 DannyJ wrote:
Why did bullying not lead to people shooting each other when i went to school... What the hell is going on. Easier for kids to obtain guns now, I guess. Doubt it. I mean yeah sure, bullying has always made people do crazy shit, but doesn't there seem to be a FAR greater reaction to it nowadays in terms of violence and suicide, etc? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess it's just a different age with things like facebook and shit which are somehow making it harder for kids. Sad.
That and the modern obsession of over-dramatizing everything in life. Teens want drama, they want their lives to be just like on TV. So whenever a small problem arises, it's suicide, death threats, etc. Why would you try and resolve conflicts reasonably when your parents decided the TV was going to be your nanny and your role models are Snooki, Kellie Pickler and the Kardashians? Explain to these kids who have been fed stupidity from birth up to the point of brain damage why God allowed Tim Tebow to win the superbowl but won't stop their bullies? There's just so many factors, so much horrible influence on youths, probably much more so in the US but all across the western world to some extent.
On the flip side, as a guy who was viciously bullied in school (changed schools 4 times in my 5 yrs of HS, always being the new kid is loads of fun!), I had a giant grin when I read the news. I wouldn't have done that myself, but it's more of an issue of me not wanting to do the jail time more than the desire to watch the horrified look in their eyes as they realize that you've turned the tables and they are about to pay the ultimate price for their actions and behavior.
Not surprised this happened, actually surprised it doesn't happen more. Maybe when we have a thousand dead bullies a year, parents will put their pants on and start educating their kids. Or maybe the schools will actually hand out severe punishment for bullying, although the bullies are usually the cool kids and from my personal experiences, the school will laugh at people complaining and never do anything to correct the situation.
|
Well you can't prevent these sort of stuff...In a presumably free country anyways
|
spek. your right they are both wrong >more kids should go to their elders to solve problems
but this incident is about guns in schools(North Carolina has laws that parents must have guns locked in Gun Safes and if children bring a gun to school from home parents are charged)
|
Bullying has been around before any of us were born. I remember teachers talking about bullying 10 years ago when i was in school. Have they quit telling about the ignorence of bullying in schools?
|
boneseven you are somewhat right but there is prevention. Kids cant buy guns > they get guns from home or friends home and the parents must not have had them locked away properly. Some States must be slow on making laws for prevention. IMO This country hasn't been free since the 60's when they made pot illegal. All States should have laws that require parents to lockaway guns in gun safe. The parents should be arrested with their child if the gun was registered to the parent.
|
Thank God for TL or I'll never be able to receive my news. Anyway, much love goes out to the victims' family. This really sucks.
|
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo.
|
I dont understand how these things can escalate so high. Dont understand either how there is so much agressivity in those youths either. Its not just a problem in the US, its getting spoken of a lot more frequently over here in Quebec as well.
|
funkie there are people out there that want to rob others for whatever reason. when some1 breaks in your home with a gun and you dont have one yourself...your dead
Guns at home isnt the problem GUN SAFETY is the problem
|
On February 28 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:10 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote:
here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant. Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement. There's no such thing as "old enough to know better." It's purely situational. A 30 year old grown adult taken out of a tribal village won't "know better" in our society because behavior is environmentally dictated. "Knowing better" is a matter of conditioning the right societal interests into the kids. Which is also why you are wrong if you think children just naturally can progress into societal bullying. Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people. It is the exact same kind of trauma that bullies inflict on others. If you're old enough to know better you should be able to broaden your view about this. Ignorance to the situation isn't just not condoning bullying.
Bullshit bubblegum "feel-good" psychology written by snake oil salesmen who want to sell books on the largely uneducated masses. "Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people." No. Just no. Now, my personal experience does not prove anything, but 90% of bullies at my HS were pretty wealthy kids, in particular I remember this Arab kid whose dad was an oil exec, the day he got his license, he came to school in a brand new BMW, kid lives a dream life and was probably one of THE worst bullies in that school. Why? Well he proved himself to others, it's cool to be "thug" and to act like you're out of a rap video clip. On top of my personal experience (cause that on it's own could be statistical variance and not represent the majority of cases), science has proven that while upbringing does have a certain effect, it is not THE cause of bullying. Society as a whole glorifies the Alpha male who dominates, it glorifies violence as a means to get ahead, it glorifies fame, appearance and popularity over any other aspect of a person. On top of that, genes come into play heavily when it comes to violent behavior as well.
I wish the lefties would stop trying to use this to expand social programs by billions of dollars to try and prove their feel-good bullshit. While you can "become" bad through your life's experiences, most violent people have a genetic predisposition to it.
|
In the absence of being able to help, definitely will be hoping for the memory of the 1 and the recovery of the other 3.
|
aero you are so right. bullying has been around for longer than any1 can predict and not in just one country. I wish bullying was talked about in every school like i remember in mine.
10 years ago when i was freshman in highschool bullying was talked about in the beginning of each year which made the entire school closer because we all looked out for eachother.
|
On February 28 2012 23:13 Mouz.Lee wrote:
funkie there are people out there that want to rob others for whatever reason. when some1 breaks in your home with a gun and you dont have one yourself...your dead
Guns at home isnt the problem GUN SAFETY is the problem
Robbers murdering their victims is so ridiculously rare in most countries... the risk of inhabitants having guns would surely make the occurance spike though.
|
What a tragedy, it's just terrible for everyone each time this happens, no matter in which country...
|
So now we should just let Robbers come on in take what you want bye now Thanks for not shooting me
or you can defend your family and belongings (you cant be that trusting of a robber with a gun that he wont shoot some1)
this is off topic however so i will shut up
|
Has the name of the gunman been released or a picture? i wanna see what he looks like
|
This is just terrible!! We have never experienced anything like this in Denmark. All my thoughts to the people involved!
|
tbh, if someone doesn't have friends or family who cares about them, they generally don't care about the future and they're ,pre prone to snapping.
most of you here judging him probably came from living and supporting homes, but I bet that if nobody gave a shit about you, and all you had to look forward to was being abused, then you would snap as well.
i'm not saying that shooting was the answer, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that we're gonna see some violent fireworks, if someone is put in that kind of position.
|
|
|
Sorry for the Familys of the injured and deceased. Not so sorry for the Gunman as guns are for protection Not retaliation
|
Good to see they aren't immediately blaming videogames for this one...
|
Having been through the US public school system (for a bit of middle school and all of high school) it's never surprising when these stories come up. Teachers at my school didn't do shit about bullying and counselors did what was in the best interest of the school, legally. Furthermore parents often didn't have time or didn't want to deal with bullying the correct way and add that all up with the fact that most people getting bullied never tell anyone and it's a tragedy waiting to happen. It's too bad that the only way to fix this is probably with money, get specialists at every school etc. but there's no way to afford that.
|
Has nothing to do with money. Has everything to do with people caring and getting involved. Teachers, parents, OTHER students. Bullying is often a pretty simple problem, that gets out of hand because nobody intervenes. The act of few which a vast majority lets pass.
Also, lets not turn this into yet another gun debate.
|
On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo.
yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale...
|
On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale...
I've been robbed at my house.
They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core.
What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster?
...
|
Normally I wouldn't read these kinds of threads, but I think there are many very interesting views in this thread. To some extent one can't fully blame society for not dealing properly with these situations proactively, because even in this thread, with so many educated views - and experiences, people seem conflicted on how to deal with it.
I empathize with those left behind. I am sure they have a sense of "what could we have done better to prevent this", and not coming up with any answers that will give them peace.
|
On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ...
lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O
|
On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O
And one man against 3 thugs is a fair chance? With the risk of getting KILLED?
|
I live in ohio, fairly close to this town. It's a horrible situation for all parties involved, he shouldn't have been bullied to a breaking point like that, and also, Nobody deserves being killed for their bullying. What's I'm kind of disgusted in, is how the local news medias, didn't even make an effort to know why this kid did this. They immediately were posting his facebook posts on their website and talking about how he was totally insane (without any evidence...you know except the whole shooting). I feel like if we better understood how these people felt before things like this happen, we could prevent this sort of thing from happening again. (the problem I see, is nobody making an effort to understand the kid)
And now a couple links, one is bunch of pictures, and the other is a link to the local news site here, where they identify the shooter, and have many videos and articles on this tragic event. Also, i don't know if it was mentioned, but it was confirmed that a 2nd person died @ the hospital.
Slide show pictures of the event
Information
|
On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O
it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us.
|
regardless of the reasons, there are way too many of these incidents going on. seems like every few months, there's a school or university shooting. makes me sad, but also kinda scares me for what the world is turning into. i'm not a parent yet, but when i am, i don't want my kids to have to be afraid of things like this happening.
|
this thread isnt about home invasions. enough
|
There has been 3 incidents of kids bringing guns to school nearby me. all were 8 or under in ages and the guns all came from home...There are laws in my state to keep guns locked in Gun Safes if you have children under 18. If your child brings a gun from home to school You are also responsible
|
The resource officers got the gun from them though and charged the parents.
User was warned for triple posting rather than using the edit button
|
All the kids involved were wrong, but they were still victims of the system/circumstances.
Best wishes to them.
|
On February 29 2012 01:09 funkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us.
we can all craft stories, and most of them finds an example...but saying have a gun is worse than not having a gun in case some1 breaks into your house is ..... oh well... I'll let you fill the ______ with the right answer.
|
does it even state that it the motive was retaliation for bullying for are you all assuming since you wanted to do the same thing because you were picked on in school?
maybe the kid was just a crazy idiot
|
On February 29 2012 01:40 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 01:09 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us. we can all craft stories, and most of them finds an example...but saying have a gun is worse than not having a gun in case some1 breaks into your house is ..... oh well... I'll let you fill the ______ with the right answer.
You can say I'm making this up, I couldn't care less than a fuck tho.
|
On February 29 2012 01:45 funkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 01:40 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 01:09 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us. we can all craft stories, and most of them finds an example...but saying have a gun is worse than not having a gun in case some1 breaks into your house is ..... oh well... I'll let you fill the ______ with the right answer. You can say I'm making this up, I couldn't care less than a fuck tho.
I'm saying that whatever you said has an example, so is my story, having an example as well...there are cases which you described, and there are cases where people got saved by having a gun, in which situation they would probably be robbed or whatever if they didn't. It' riskier to not have a gun.
|
Guns dont kill people. People kill People
|
why was i warned for a something that is a fact. no1 knows what the details of the investigation and they havent released them yet so all the speculation is useless
|
On February 29 2012 01:58 Mouz.Lee wrote:
why was i warned for a something that is a fact. no1 knows what the details of the investigation and they havent released them yet so all the speculation is useless
You'll have received a PM saying why u got warned.
|
On February 29 2012 01:49 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 01:45 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 01:40 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 01:09 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us. we can all craft stories, and most of them finds an example...but saying have a gun is worse than not having a gun in case some1 breaks into your house is ..... oh well... I'll let you fill the ______ with the right answer. You can say I'm making this up, I couldn't care less than a fuck tho. It's riski er to not have a gun.
Imagine you're an American robber and you know the owners of the house you are robbing are very likely to have a gun, you'll be very much less hesitant in shooting them. Whereas in Europe, when you break into someone's house and you find the owner awake, he's not gonna shoot you. You as a robber know that and thus feel less threatened; you're not gonna overreact and you're not gonna bring a gun in the first place.
|
On February 29 2012 01:49 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 01:45 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 01:40 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 01:09 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:42 bOneSeven wrote:On February 29 2012 00:15 funkie wrote:On February 29 2012 00:00 bOneSeven wrote:On February 28 2012 23:08 funkie wrote:
americans and their desire to have guns at home.
who the fuck are you fighting that you need a gun in your fucking house?
gtfo. yeah...home raiders are a fairy tale... I've been robbed at my house. They got into my house, took everything, and left me there and my family wrapped in tape, and I just stood there and watch. They were 3, armed to the core. What was I going to do with a gun?, get killed faster? ... lol I guess they used blink or cloak to get in that house without you noticing ;O it was 3 am, and they were pretty quick to get a hold of us. we can all craft stories, and most of them finds an example...but saying have a gun is worse than not having a gun in case some1 breaks into your house is ..... oh well... I'll let you fill the ______ with the right answer. You can say I'm making this up, I couldn't care less than a fuck tho. I'm saying that whatever you said has an example, so is my story, having an example as well...there are cases which you described, and there are cases where people got saved by having a gun, in which situation they would probably be robbed or whatever if they didn't. It' riskier to not have a gun.
Please provide proof of this other than your biased opinion.
|
Many people who are for gun ownership say "If you want to kill someone, you'll find a gun anyway."
I'm sorry but that's complete bs I have never heard of something like this happening in the UK in my entire life and yet it seems to happen in the US at least once a year...
|
On February 29 2012 02:24 Laurence wrote:
Many people who are for gun ownership say "If you want to kill someone, you'll find a gun anyway."
I'm sorry but that's complete bs I have never heard of something like this happening in the UK in my entire life and yet it seems to happen in the US at least once a year...
It's not "complete bs" but thank you for your blanket statement.
Situations like this are the one scenario where I agree that limitations on gun ownership can actually make a difference, simply because it is likely the only way a lot of these teenage shooters are able to to get a firearm. Granted, I don't know how this kid obtained his weapons, but it's usually a safe bet they were in his house somewhere.
In all other cases, our "gun culture" trumps any sort of law or regulation on gun ownership. For some reason our founding fathers decided to make the right to bear arms sacred, and the red-necked portion of our population put it up there with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
If you make it difficult to obtain a gun, all it takes are a few less-than-scrupulous store owners to resupply people who really want weapons with illegal firearms. Not to mention it increases the demand for an already very successful black market for weapons.
More rigorous gun control would *probably* (but not definitely) help prevent tragedies like this, but for the vast majority of gun-related crime in the U.S., if someone wants a gun, it is not overly difficult for them to acquire one, through legal or illegal channels.
|
This is so sad to hear. I saw the death count is now up to 2 now. I hope we can at least take some knowledge out of this, and better help our youth in the future.
I wish you guys wouldn't make these distasteful comments in this thread. You should be ashamed of your ignorant comments toward the parties involved, and the society/country. These are complex issues, please don't be so careless and condescending.
|
Three dead now according to a report from about 16 minutes ago.
|
On February 29 2012 03:03 Befree wrote:
This is so sad to hear. I saw the death count is now up to 2 now. I hope we can at least take some knowledge out of this, and better help our youth in the future.
I wish you guys wouldn't make these distasteful comments in this thread. You should be ashamed of your ignorant comments toward the parties involved, and the society/country. These are complex issues, please don't be so careless and condescending.
Better help for our youth is indeed the answer, but I hope you're not making this post based on the assumption that the kid was bullied into committing these crimes. These kids didn't even go to the same school, and by all accounts this was a jealousy-based shooting by an unhinged youth with a vengeance problem.
|
There is another thread on gun control here (link). Let's try to stay on topic?
I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it.
There are no bad children, only bad parents.
|
On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents.
Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied.
And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house.
|
On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house.
I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more.
As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control.
|
On February 28 2012 12:26 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem. I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
I'm sorry I just couldn't let this one slide... Did you really just suggest that America's serial killing problem is a result of bullying? Seriously, have you read even one single book on serial killers? While spree killers (killing more than 3 people in one event without a cool down period in between) and school shooters are sometimes partially motivated by bullying, serial killers (killing more than 3 people at 3 separate times with a cool down period in between) are generally altogether different. They are more methodical, more rational, more terrifying, better liars, harder to catch and more demented in every way imaginable. While a spree killer is generally new to murder, a serial killer is literally a master of it. More well practiced in every way. For a spree killer the goal is a dead body. For a serial killer, the goal is the actual act of murdering someone. They are not after a dead body, they are after the rush and the thrill of the kill itself. Thus, one dead body is never enough. They have to keep recreating that experience.
All I'm getting at is, while spree killers are often partially motivated by bullying, serial killers are not. Nine out of ten times, it's their parents. Usually, the parents are psychopaths too. Generally, people aren't born without empathy. It is systematically stripped away from them, usually by insanely abusive parents (which, I know someone's going to say is a form of bullying, but when I say bullying I mean by peers) over the course of a very long time. Their sympathy for other people is usually physically beaten out of them, to a point where the only thing that makes sense to them is violence. They literally cannot project their psyche onto another person like you or I easily can, and do on a daily, almost minute to minute basis. In other words they cannot "see it from your shoes" ever. Period. To them, they are their own whole world. Other people are literally just a collection of atoms, they are not "people." No different than a rock or twig or insect. Something to be snapped in half, used up, taken advantage of.
But that's only half of it. The other half is American culture. It's literally a competition. News agency’s can’t wait to make their bold, new highest body count ever! These stories sell, they become social scripts, and other budding psychopaths follow them. American culture has an intense interest in violence and tragedy. We literally subconsciously encourage it, and hope for it. Add that to our ridiculously staggering gun problem, and it's a ticking time bomb.
Also, while I do agree our judicial system focuses too much on punishment rather than rehabilitation, even this notion can be misleading, with specific regard to serial killers. It has been systematically scientifically proven that counseling actually makes psychopaths worse. For a psychopath, the ultimate phantasy is the lie. They lie about literally everything at all times. And when you counsel them, they get good at lying. They dupe their psychiatrists on a regular basis, and getting the opportunity to sharpen their wit against an intellectual foe allows them to more easily dupe everyday citizens once they are released. Psychopathy is almost, in a sense, completely untreatable.
Both Eric and Dylan were court ordered to undergo counseling and enter a diversions program after they were caught stealing stereo equipment from a car. While Dylan barely passed his sessions, Eric (the obvious psychopathic leader of the criminal dyad) was deemed by his counselor to be totally remorseful. He even wrote a touching letter to the owner of the vehicle, apologizing for his actions. All the counseling did was allow him to hone his art of deception. Something both Eric and Dylan powerfully leveraged against their parents.
|
Regarding the gun, it came out a short while ago that he stole it from his uncle, who had purchased it legally.
|
On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia.
|
I actually go to school 10 mins away from Chardon where the shooting happened. I do not know any of the victims personally, but I do have friends that do and it's quite emotional. The police has been told to stay in surrounding schools, but I have no idea why. It's not like there are going to be intruders that will all of a sudden go into neighborhood schools and start shooting.
Also, I don't know if it's been updated in this thread yet, but it is now a confirmed 3 dead and 2 in critical condition.
|
Blame here as usual lies squarely on the system that allows for bullying to happen. The blood is more on the hands of the bullies (and their parents) and the teachers than anyone else. Of course not every single school shooting is due to bullies, some people are just mentally disturbed, all evidence here points to that. Schools where this happen should be temprorarily shut down while a rigorous evaluation of the teaching staff takes place. I would even be in favour of holding the parents of the bullies responsible for the deaths as well.
|
On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control.
I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents.
|
On February 29 2012 06:37 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control. I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents.
Only because parents don't do anything anymore. Also, last I checked your home (you know the place where you live, sleep, eat, etc) is a pretty big part of that environment.
|
Bloody hell. These cases are always pretty tragic. I think there needs to be more support then things like this wouldn't happen.
|
On February 29 2012 06:41 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:37 RageBot wrote:On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control. I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents. Only because parents don't do anything anymore. Also, last I checked your home (you know the place where you live, sleep, eat, etc) is a pretty big part of that environment.
The sad thing is, terrible parents have a huge effect on their kids. They literally break them through physical and mental abuse. But good parents have far less of an effect on their children, as they generally encourage them to become autonomous, and give them a breath of privacy. Good parents are the easiest to fool. My parents were literally awesome and super involved in my life, but they had no idea I spent most of my time at home doing drugs in my bathroom all through highschool. And I could never blame them for not knowing; I was adept at hiding it, as most of these school shooters are as well. Dylan Kleebold had great parents as well. They constantly checked up on him, accompanied him to college visitations, and monitored his grades and expected much of him.
|
On February 29 2012 06:32 ComusLoM wrote:
Blame here as usual lies squarely on the system that allows for bullying to happen. The blood is more on the hands of the bullies (and their parents) and the teachers than anyone else. Of course not every single school shooting is due to bullies, some people are just mentally disturbed, all evidence here points to that. Schools where this happen should be temprorarily shut down while a rigorous evaluation of the teaching staff takes place. I would even be in favour of holding the parents of the bullies responsible for the deaths as well.
Yet another person jumping on the bullying bandwagon. There is absolutely no evidence here that suggests this kid was bullied, other than the fact that he is obviously a little strange, and they tend to attract that sort of attention. All first or second hand accounts so far suggest that the shooter didn't even go to the same school as the victims, but was there to get picked up so he could go to his "special-needs" academy. Apparently there was some bad blood between them over a girl, but I don't know any information other than that.
But in your hypothetical, fairy-tale scenario where these kids left him no choice but to shoot them dead because of how mean they are, the blood still isn't on the hands of the bullies. Bullying is a serious problem in American schools, there is no doubt about that, but as far as the criminal/moral scale goes, murder is a far worse act than bullying. Justifying premeditated murder with "well, they had it coming!" is cold-blooded to say the least.
The one part of your post that does make sense is that the teachers/administrative staff should be held partially responsible for this tragedy. Not because of the bullying (which didn't even occur), but because other students tried to warn them about what this kid was going to do and nobody took them seriously. Also, whoever spent time around the shooter (parents, teachers) should have been able to tell that he was a little off, especially when he's posting pictures on the internet of him posing with his guns.
To say the parents of the bullies should be held responsible is lol-worthy however. Speaking from personal experience (some of the kids I knew in elementary/middle school could be considered bullies, and I knew their parents), most parents have absolutely no idea how their child behaves at school or around other children unless the teachers report incidents of bullying (which never happens). Even the bullies know how to be sweet to their parents in order to get what they want.
|
On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Sadly, this is a fairly accurate statement. If schools do not make the effort to intervene in situations of bullying, then more people will be pushed over the edge. And then we'll have more tragedies like Columbine and this Ohio school.
|
being bullied is not an acceptable excuse for going around shooting bulliers
|
|
|
they were kids, and kids always bully or get bullied... it will always exist until the finally grow up and realize that bullying is actually a wrong thing to do.
|
Alright, where are all these ignorant "the bullies got what they deserved" posters now? Does everyone feel equally silly for so quickly jumping on the bully-bandwagon? Because you should.
I hate to say I told you so but... I told you so.
|
Wow, it's even worse than I thought. I'd been correcting the people decrying "Bullying kills!" thinking that it was over the girl as some people close to the incident had thought. If he really did choose them randomly, then he's a psychopath and should be tried as an adult.
The amount of people in this thread still talking about bullying is astounding though, really.
|
On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day.
|
On February 29 2012 07:08 ZasZ. wrote:Wow, it's even worse than I thought. I'd been correcting the people decrying "Bullying kills!" thinking that it was over the girl as some people close to the incident had thought. If he really did choose them randomly, then he's a psychopath and should be tried as an adult. The amount of people in this thread still talking about bullying is astounding though, really.
Although I also disagree with those trying to defend the shooter and saying that the victims "deserved" it, is it a for sure thing that he chose people at random?
It says in the article:
The hearing came hours after the death toll rose to three, and as schoolmates and townspeople grappled with the tragedy and wondered what could have set the gunman off — a mystery the court appearance did nothing to solve.
It was the prosecutor who claims he didn't know his victims...and this is just the first hearing. So I think it'd be a good idea to wait for more information before making anymore assumptions.
|
Everyone invovled deserves some form of sympathy here.
This problem is so charged some people see, "This is why he did it."
And other's see that as "This is why he's justified."
And the argument takes a whole new bad direction, lashing out is never justified, it can only be related to by those who've been pushed. I've seen no one say, bold-faced, this was justified. Yet, I see so many other threads, asking how this can possibly be justified in someone elses eyes. Let it go.
It's just awful that it happened.
|
I just read the article. The prosecutor said it was random, however the same article also says one of the kids he shot had recently started dating his ex-girlfriend. While not bullying, I would hardly call this 'random' either. As for the others shot, might be a case of wrong place wrong time, or who knows what happened in that moment. But I was skeptical of the prosecutor as soon as I read 'random'. Prosecutors are just as full of shit as defense attorneys.
|
|
|
No one deserves to die for anything in my opinion. There are people who lose the right to live by doing certain things in my opinion, but no one deserves to die for anything, especially not bullying.
That said, when you tell your 11 y/o kid about the four kids who took a bullet for what they did, your kid is much less likely to be a bully, no?
Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers.
To talk about how the bullies chose to be assholes is so moronic, it makes me weep for the educated. Kids are stupid. No exceptions. I'm still stupid, and I'm 19 years old. The only difference between me and an 11-year-old is that I know better than to be a dick, because I grew up in an environment that taught me to make my own determinations of what is right and what is wrong, one that helped me to develop my own moral compass. Kids choose to bully because they don't know better, and no one taught them any better. So yes. Upbringing is very important, and it was at fault for what happened here, without a doubt.
That said, everyone deserves a bit of empathy in some way. Nothing is ever completely one person's fault, and it is harmful to think that way.
|
CHARDON, Ohio (AP) — The teenager arrested in an Ohio school shooting that killed three students didn't know his victims and chose them randomly, a prosecutor said Tuesday as the young man appeared in juvenile court.
T.J. Lane, 17, admitted taking a .22-caliber pistol to Chardon High School along with a knife and firing 10 shots at a group of students sitting at a cafeteria table Monday morning, Prosecutor David Joyce said.
The hearing came hours after the death toll rose to three, and as schoolmates and townspeople grappled with the tragedy and wondered what could have set the gunman off — a mystery the court appearance did nothing to solve.
"He did not know the students but chose them randomly," Joyce said.
|
On February 29 2012 07:16 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day.
The prosecutors are gonna charge the killer in 15 days (other sources say they have until March 1st). The verdict will come out in a few months.
All you have for now is several more news reports. It's not like the full truth is out there yet. (Read this article among other reports that say "The police did not offer any information about a possible motive or about where the suspect obtained a gun.
|
On February 29 2012 07:56 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:16 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day. The prosecutors are gonna charge the killer in 15 days. The verdict will come out in a few months. All you have for now is several more news reports. It's not like the full truth is out there yet. But if we take what we have as information now, it seems like the whole bullying discussion is rendered moot, I agree.
If you read the article above they already have surveillance of the event. This kid is a dead man walking, no controversy about it, it was him and only him that killed 3 people and wounded 2 others and he will be in jail for a long long long time.
FACT
|
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
such an unbelievably hypocritical view in my opinion.
the vulnerability and pain of being bullied is not comparable to the vulnerability and pain of being shot like game.
ppl getting bullied should be strong and use the anger to do something productive with their life... not sacrifice their entire life for dumb revenge... the shooter obviously thought the bullies were more important than his own life - which is so sad that it's actually funny.
edit: wait... he didn't even know the kids he shot...? so all of the talk of bullying in this thread is irrelevant i guess.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 29 2012 07:58 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:56 Spekulatius wrote:On February 29 2012 07:16 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day. The prosecutors are gonna charge the killer in 15 days. The verdict will come out in a few months. All you have for now is several more news reports. It's not like the full truth is out there yet. But if we take what we have as information now, it seems like the whole bullying discussion is rendered moot, I agree. If you read the article above they already have surveillance of the event. This kid is a dead man walking, no controversy about it, it was him and only him that killed 3 people and wounded 2 others and he will be in jail for a long long long time. FACT
I never said he didn't shoot them. Read my post and the nested quotes...
|
On February 29 2012 05:00 logikly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying. Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia.
Maybe we should execute thieves too, so that they learn a valuable lesson not to steal or bad shit happens to them :/ justice is about having a punishment that fits the crime, I am astounded at how many people seem supportive of this kid dying, presumably because they were bullied themselves. Ive been bullied too but ffs get some perspective.
Anyway this whole thing looks fishy, as in the extent that there was bullying or even if it happened at all.
Edit: yes I think victims should stand up for themselves. Do I consider premeditated murder as an appropriate way to do so? Shit no
|
On February 29 2012 08:07 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:00 logikly wrote:On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying. Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia. Maybe we should execute thieves too, so that they learn a valuable lesson not to steal or bad shit happens to them :/ justice is about having a punishment that fits the crime, I am astounded at how many people seem supportive of this kid dying, presumably because they were bullied themselves. Ive been bullied too but ffs get some perspective. Anyway this whole thing looks fishy, as in the extent that there was bullying or even if it happened at all.
Read the last half a page and you would know that there are 3 dead and the shooter himself admitted to shooting random people.
Edit: I agree with you however alot of your post has been answered/changed
|
On February 29 2012 08:09 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:07 Ryder. wrote:On February 29 2012 05:00 logikly wrote:On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying. Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia. Maybe we should execute thieves too, so that they learn a valuable lesson not to steal or bad shit happens to them :/ justice is about having a punishment that fits the crime, I am astounded at how many people seem supportive of this kid dying, presumably because they were bullied themselves. Ive been bullied too but ffs get some perspective. Anyway this whole thing looks fishy, as in the extent that there was bullying or even if it happened at all. Read the last half a page and you would know that there are 3 dead and the shooter himself admitted to shooting random people. Edit: I agree with you however alot of your post has been answered/changed
Oops in sorry missed the last few posts as I was replying to this. Regardless, what I said to the guy I quoted is still relevant.
But yeah the whole thing did seem odd if the whole thing was about bullying, especially the stuff about him taking photos of himself with guns, makes more sense that it isn't I suppose.
|
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote:
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
This statement makes me so fucking furious. You must be a complete fucking idiot, which, by the way, has NOTHING to do with the fact that you're British. You call the statement of one person something typically American, without any regard as to what any other Americans say in this thread, which is plain idiotic, which, by the way, has NOTHING to do with the fact that you're British.
Learn not to insult 300 million people by identifying them all with the statement of one person, then come back and revise your statement.
|
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote:
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
Screw off. You're being an ignorant asshat by generalizing 300 million people based on what 1 person said. What he said isn't even the most popular view in America, most people feel sorry for the deceased.
Anyway, new news findings are indicating that bullying probably wasn't even a factor. TL.net always jumps on the bully bandwagon way too quickly, it's as if everyone here has been shoved into lockers repeatedly. Murder is never justified, ever. In addition, 99% of kids are bullied at some point. It's up to the parents and the kids to deal with it appropriately and not kill people. Recently, I think that we have gotten too.... soft when it comes to bullying. Sure, you should seek help if you're being beaten up by 3 kids every day. But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. People need to teach kids that there is a life beyond high school, and that lives are valuable. Far too many commit suicide or kill, or both.
Kill count is up to 3, with more injured. My best wishes to the families of the deceased, and I hope that the danger to society who committed the crime is removed.
|
On February 29 2012 06:51 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:32 ComusLoM wrote:
Blame here as usual lies squarely on the system that allows for bullying to happen. The blood is more on the hands of the bullies (and their parents) and the teachers than anyone else. Of course not every single school shooting is due to bullies, some people are just mentally disturbed, all evidence here points to that. Schools where this happen should be temprorarily shut down while a rigorous evaluation of the teaching staff takes place. I would even be in favour of holding the parents of the bullies responsible for the deaths as well. Yet another person jumping on the bullying bandwagon. There is absolutely no evidence here that suggests this kid was bullied, other than the fact that he is obviously a little strange, and they tend to attract that sort of attention. All first or second hand accounts so far suggest that the shooter didn't even go to the same school as the victims, but was there to get picked up so he could go to his "special-needs" academy. Apparently there was some bad blood between them over a girl, but I don't know any information other than that. But in your hypothetical, fairy-tale scenario where these kids left him no choice but to shoot them dead because of how mean they are, the blood still isn't on the hands of the bullies. Bullying is a serious problem in American schools, there is no doubt about that, but as far as the criminal/moral scale goes, murder is a far worse act than bullying. Justifying premeditated murder with "well, they had it coming!" is cold-blooded to say the least. The one part of your post that does make sense is that the teachers/administrative staff should be held partially responsible for this tragedy. Not because of the bullying (which didn't even occur), but because other students tried to warn them about what this kid was going to do and nobody took them seriously. Also, whoever spent time around the shooter (parents, teachers) should have been able to tell that he was a little off, especially when he's posting pictures on the internet of him posing with his guns. To say the parents of the bullies should be held responsible is lol-worthy however. Speaking from personal experience (some of the kids I knew in elementary/middle school could be considered bullies, and I knew their parents), most parents have absolutely no idea how their child behaves at school or around other children unless the teachers report incidents of bullying (which never happens). Even the bullies know how to be sweet to their parents in order to get what they want.
You make some pretty bold claims for making things up. According to this interview he was bullied, so unless she's making things up for no reason then it DID in fact occur.
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/02/28/savidge-school-shooting.cnn
The statement that would be more fitting if he didn't know his victims is that those specific victims hadn't bullied him. But he was in fact bullied.
We'll find out if he's a psycho when he gets a psychiatric evaluation. This was obviously premeditated since he posted pics the day before. Just because he lashed out at one person doesn't mean that bullying had no effect on him leading up to the events, even if that person wasn't the source of bullying.
Bully, bully, bully, FML, F this, F everyone, act of violence.
|
On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote:
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
TL.net always jumps on the bully bandwagon way too quickly, it's as if everyone here has been shoved into lockers repeatedly.
you can blame the media for that. they always run off the assumption that it's bullying that caused it. makes for a more "dramatic story". i remember when columbine happened the narrative was that they were bullied, and then years later we found out that they were bullies themselves, and were most likely not bullied at all. sometimes its just crazy people doing crazy stuff. not trying to say that its never the bullied lashing out, but a lot of times its not.
still, its all irrelevant anyway. kids are dead and hurt and there is nothing we can do except try to move on and pay more attention when kids make threats like this one did.
edit: im not saying anythign about this case specifically, as i don't know the facts. but in general, the media does play stuff up to try to make it more dramatic. thought i should clarify that.
|
On February 29 2012 08:47 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote:
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
TL.net always jumps on the bully bandwagon way too quickly, it's as if everyone here has been shoved into lockers repeatedly. you can blame the media for that. they always run off the assumption that it's bullying that caused it. makes for a more "dramatic story". i remember when columbine happened the narrative was that they were bullied, and then years later we found out that they were bullies themselves, and were most likely not bullied at all. sometimes its just crazy people doing crazy stuff. not trying to say that its never the bullied lashing out, but a lot of times its not. still, its all irrelevant anyway. kids are dead and hurt and there is nothing we can do except try to move on and pay more attention when kids make threats like this one did. edit: im not saying anythign about this case specifically, as i don't know the facts. but in general, the media does play stuff up to try to make it more dramatic. thought i should clarify that.
Finally someone with a brain that did a little research on Columbine. This bully thing is run with literally after EVERY school shooting. It usually starts with a reporter shoving a microphone into the face of a some traumatized teen with a half story. That was one of the biggest problems with Columbine's reporting, they pretty much let the kids cover the story, and their interpretation of the events were often clouded by the commotion.
I.E. - Everyone thinking Cassy Bernall proclaimed her faith in God before she was killed. Not true at all. There was a girl literally hiding under the table with her. Eric walked up to the table, slapped the top twice, said "peek-a-boo" and shot under the table without even looking under it. They never even spoke a word to each other. The only time God was brought up was when Bree was asked by Dylan if she believed in God, and she vacillated back and forth "Yes.. No.. I don't know" searching for the right answer. She was spared. Someone heard this, attributed it to Cassy, and the rest is history.
|
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr.
|
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote:
typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy?
such an unbelievably hypocritical view in my opinion.
the vulnerability and pain of being bullied is not comparable to the vulnerability and pain of being shot like game.
ppl getting bullied should be strong and use the anger to do something productive with their life... not sacrifice their entire life for dumb revenge... the shooter obviously thought the bullies were more important than his own life - which is so sad that it's actually funny.
edit: wait... he didn't even know the kids he shot...? so all of the talk of bullying in this thread is irrelevant i guess.
Get strong? Why didn't we think of that, it's genius! It's just that easy!
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you were thinking with that statement. If someone takes a gun to a bully they were probably not a "strong" person, mentally, physically, or both. Getting a weapon probably constituted "getting strong" in their minds, acting as an equalizer. Especially if the bullying was physical, as in that case it's almost guaranteed that the bullied is weaker than the bully.
|
If you've never been really bullied, don't unilaterally judge the reactions people have to bullying; remain objective and open-minded, and remember that you will never know what it does to a psyche to be emotionally and physically abused, especially considering that everyone has a different psychological weakness. If you've never been shot, don't talk about why someone deserved to get shot. This was a tragedy, and empathy is not a scarce resource if you don't want it to be. The parties shouldn't have to compete for it. You don't HAVE to take sides. You can and should criticize mistakes, but remember that your opinion and experience is different from the next guy's, and you'll never understand what was truly going through someone's mind and what specific combination of factors really caused a tragedy like this. Ever. The only thing you can really do objectively is empathize, so try and do that to the best of your ability, and you'll find that goes further than any amount of blame you as an individual can assign.
|
On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr.
I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that.
Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it.
If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject.
|
the mad-world strikes again... just sad -.-
|
Even if bullying were taken seriously in schools saddly it would still happen... just on a different scale.
We should instead find a way to reach kids with the message to not do horrible things like this no matter how much they are picked on. People need to be strong
|
On February 29 2012 07:52 Shantastic wrote:
Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers.
Teachers should not be baby sitters. Discipline should be handled 99% of the time at home. Of course any direct conflict is stopped and discouraged, but what you're saying is not possible. How is it the teachers' fault that someone's child not only found a gun but brought it to school? How is it a teacher's fault that his parents didn't talk to him about his life and find out something was fucked up? Teachers are great people, but they aren't miracle workers. If some kid has gone through 8 years of school with no checks and balances, and arrives at high school with a new staff how can that new staff be blamed? etc.
Teachers are a part of the child raising process, but as a teacher, I deny this proposition that "the greatest fault must be with the teachers."
|
On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
please understand that the psychology of a developing teenager is very different from that of a mature adult. You are essentially suggesting that an immature youth has the responsibility to respond to abuse (emotional and/or physical) as though he were a mature adult. This is not only unreasonable; it is analogous to suggesting that gay men have a responsibility to be sexually attracted to women.
What's wrong with this picture is not that these youths did not behave like mature adults; What's wrong is that mature, responsible adults were not in the picture at all.
|
On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault.
Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm
|
So I just watched one of the press conferences on this incident, and it was stated that the shooter picked his targets at random, and then fled the scene. They made it a point to explicitly say it was NOT a case of bullying.
Does anyone know if bullying actually was a factor, or were people just assuming?
|
On February 29 2012 09:30 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr. I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that. Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it. If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject.
What you're doing so far is presuming. You might have read a lot about previous shootings. That doesn't change the fact that up until this point we know were little about why the shooting happened.
You can go ahead and deduct from Columbine and Virginia Tech what might have happened here and why and how it could've been prevented. But fact is, about the shooting at hand you know as little as we do. So unless there's evidence for your statements and the comparability of the situations, you're just doing educated guesses. I acknowledge this hurts your pride, but it's no reason to get angry at people.
And about the question if we should feel sympathy for the bullied: again, it's a matter of opinion, not of fact. It's your view on the situation against the others, or more precisely your feelings against those of the rest. And - I've said it before - very few people confuse the victim and the guilty party here. They're just empathising a little with what we thought was the victim of extensive bullying.
|
On February 29 2012 09:38 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:52 Shantastic wrote:
Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers.
Teachers should not be baby sitters. Discipline should be handled 99% of the time at home. Of course any direct conflict is stopped and discouraged, but what you're saying is not possible. How is it the teachers' fault that someone's child not only found a gun but brought it to school? How is it a teacher's fault that his parents didn't talk to him about his life and find out something was fucked up? Teachers are great people, but they aren't miracle workers. If some kid has gone through 8 years of school with no checks and balances, and arrives at high school with a new staff how can that new staff be blamed? etc. Teachers are a part of the child raising process, but as a teacher, I deny this proposition that "the greatest fault must be with the teachers."
I'm sorry, but children lie to their parents. My brother did to mine, just like I did, just like the kid I used to tease did, until he had the guts to tell me that what I said was actually hurting his feelings, at which point I realized I was bullying him and stopped. It's a problem with ego, and most children have it. I never said it's the teacher's fault that the shooting happened; no one party is at fault, but at the same time, no one party is free of responsibility. If the teachers do not know a child is being bullied, how can the parents know? The school must find a way to make sure that bullying does not go unnoticed, and that requires engagement in the student's life. Teachers need to be more accountable than they are now, and they need to make a lot more money for it than they are now. That's just what I believe, because education is everything of a childhood that the family life isn't. It develops knowledge, friendships, and social skills. Morality and discipline are parental responsibilities, but in order to know how to proceed, a reliable witness to the child's behavior is needed. If not the teacher, then who?
|
http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/
To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying.
" In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million."
It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day.
|
I don't consider myself in any way paranoid for thinking 1 in a million is 1/1000000 too hgh.
|
I don't understand how people just love to rage at each other on the internet. People are arguing when they actually agree with each other. When this happens alot of people start to think, "Why did this happen?" Since this is the most important question. We can't really do anything to prevent what already happened, but if we can figure out why it happened, maybe we can prevent this from happening in the future. So when people think, maybe he was bullied, maybe he was mentally sick, maybe he had a shitty home life, a whole bunch of yahoos read this as "it's okay to kill people if he was bullied, or sick, or had a shitty home life" which is clearly not what people are saying. No one in this thread is trying to say that it's okay to kill people for picking on you or because your life is shitty. So everyone saying that trying to find out why it happens is "justifying' the murders needs to shut up.
Either everyone on TL needs to take a class on logic or they should all become lawyers.
|
I wonder how they're going to prosecute this. Does the offender count as a minor, and will he be tried as an adult anyway? Death penalty on the table? How would this work in other countries that don't allowed minors to be tried as adults, especially if the guy killed like 10+ people? Still a few years in juvie?
|
This is Virgina Tech all over again.
It will never disappear...cu
|
Why are people blaming the teachers? Its not their fault.
The parents need to assume more responsibility. School is not a day care.
|
On February 29 2012 11:37 xmaine wrote:
Why are people blaming the teachers? Its not their fault.
The parents need to assume more responsibility. School is not a day care.
Agreed, wait till they get to college where you see just how babied you were by high school teachers.
Teachers are not baby sitters, they are paid to make sure the students learn the given subject and that's it. Its the parents jobs to teach morals and ethics just like its always been.
|
|
|
On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm
Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
|
God, the entire thread revolved around the OP and him mentioning bullying but it turns out there was no bullying. What a load of shit I spent so much time on this thread too.
|
On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
You obviously don't live in the south...
|
On February 29 2012 13:25 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. You obviously don't live in the south...
I live in New York State. Where pompous atheists insult anyone of faith for "being an ignorant idiot." And then claim that the religious are the ones shoving views down people's throats. Of course not all atheists are like this, however the majority I have met are.
|
The world we live in really pisses me off.
Sad that these things occur, despite things being blown out of proportion imo.
|
On February 29 2012 09:30 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr. I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that. Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it. If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject.
If you actually think you are going to change someones mind on an emotional subject via the internet, you should spend more time on it. All that we can all agree upon is that it is a travesty.
|
On February 29 2012 11:43 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 11:37 xmaine wrote:
Why are people blaming the teachers? Its not their fault.
The parents need to assume more responsibility. School is not a day care. Agreed, wait till they get to college where you see just how babied you were by high school teachers. Teachers are not baby sitters, they are paid to make sure the students learn the given subject and that's it. Its the parents jobs to teach morals and ethics just like its always been.
Of course, because you're as physically and psychologically independent at the age of 19 as you are at 12.
Teachers are absolutely babysitters in addition to educators. They are paid to watch over the students and teach them during school hours, which is why the school is responsible for anything that happens to students on campus. If I were to have jumped off the roof at the age of 12 during recess, the school would have been responsible. Schools are paid to know what goes on on their campus. If you don't think it's part of your job to prevent bullying and report bullying to the parents of those involved, you need to find a different profession.
|
The OP in this thread was bad to begin with and probably bears nearly all the responsibility for the b-word shitstorm that it initiated. I think that it ought to be heavily edited, at the very least to include an article like this one from Reuters:
Suspect told police he killed randomly in Ohio school
The student, identified by authorities as T.J. Lane, appeared in Geauga County, Ohio Juvenile Court, where he was ordered detained following Monday's shooting at Chardon High School.
Lane has confessed to police to taking a knife and a .22-caliber pistol into the high school cafeteria and firing 10 rounds at randomly selected students, prosecutors said.
As the shocked residents of the town 35 miles east of Cleveland asked how it could have happened, two more students were pronounced dead from wounds suffered when Lane opened fire.
Daniel Parmertor, 16, was pronounced dead on Monday, and Demetrius Hewlin and Russell King Jr., 17, on Tuesday, the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's office said.
...
The families of King and Hewlin donated their organs and released statements Tuesday through MetroHealth Medical Center
"Demetrius was a happy young man who loved life and his family and friends," the Hewlin family said. "We will miss him very much but we are proud that he will be able to help others through organ donation," it said.
...
Lane's family said they were in shock over the events and asked for privacy.
"The family wanted me to convey to the citizens of Geauga County and Northeastern Ohio that the family is devastated by this most recent event," the Lane family's lawyer Bob Farinacci told local WKYC news prior to Tuesday's hearing.
"This is something that could never have been predicted. T.J.'s family has asked for some privacy while they try to understand how such a tragedy could have occurred and while they mourn this terrible loss for their community."
...
"As was stated earlier in court today, he chose his victims at random," Prosecutor Joyce said. "This is not about bullying, this is not about drugs, this is someone who is not well."
The judge ordered restrictions Tuesday on what prosecutors and defense attorneys could disclose publicly in the case.
Lane's attorney Farinacci has described him as a "good kid" who had never been in trouble and had impressive grades.
"He's a sophomore. He's been doubling up on his classes with the intent of graduating this May. He pretty much sticks to himself but does have some friends and has never been in trouble over anything that we know about," Farinacci said.
Bullying may, in the end, be a relevant issue to this tragedy. It may not. But I would like to suggest that everyone cool off a bit and wait to see how the story continues to develop, especially before chiming in about how the children who were murdered yesterday in any sense whatsoever "had it coming."
|
This whole mess is so sad, in so many different ways. Not only is the situation itself horrible, but knowing it has happened in the past and will more than likely happen in the future no matter what we do is such a disturbing thought. I just hope at this point that the two surviving victims make it and don't have any serious physical issues in the future, as the mental issues alone will be more than damaging enough.
|
On February 29 2012 13:32 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 13:25 Kerwin wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. You obviously don't live in the south... I live in New York State. Where pompous atheists insult anyone of faith for "being an ignorant idiot." And then claim that the religious are the ones shoving views down people's throats. Of course not all atheists are like this, however the majority I have met are.
There's a difference between "shoving views down people's throats" and "educating". For example, if someone genuinely believes that 2 + 2 = 6, it is every sane person's moral obligation to teach them that 2 + 2 is actually equal to 4. People cry "hurr durr shovin' yer views down mah throat" when they don't like what they hear, even if it is objectively correct. If everyone believed what they wanted to regardless of what was true, the world would be in fucking chaos.
|
On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day.
School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid.
|
On February 29 2012 09:54 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:30 kellenr wrote:On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr. I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that. Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it. If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject. What you're doing so far is presuming. You might have read a lot about previous shootings. That doesn't change the fact that up until this point we know were little about why the shooting happened. You can go ahead and deduct from Columbine and Virginia Tech what might have happened here and why and how it could've been prevented. But fact is, about the shooting at hand you know as little as we do. So unless there's evidence for your statements and the comparability of the situations, you're just doing educated guesses. I acknowledge this hurts your pride, but it's no reason to get angry at people. And about the question if we should feel sympathy for the bullied: again, it's a matter of opinion, not of fact. It's your view on the situation against the others, or more precisely your feelings against those of the rest. And - I've said it before - very few people confuse the victim and the guilty party here. They're just empathising a little with what we thought was the victim of extensive bullying.
That's literally what i've been saying the whole time. That we don't know what happened, we can't jump to conclusions and just assume it was bullying! That's literally what i've been pushing this whole time.
And you're right, all i'm doing is making an educated guess! What most people are doing is simply guessing. They're totally neglecting the educated part.
And i've read about way more than Columbine and Virginia Tech. The book I keep referencing, Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings gathers facts from like, 14 different school shootings. So yes, it's not a hunch i'm basing on just 2 incidents. I'm literally working with facts from no less than 20 different school shootings--counting the ones not included in the book i've researched. And guess what? Most of them have striking similarities.
Now, that's not to say I know conclusively what happened. But an educated guess, yeah, I can manage that. Most people here can't.
|
Schools the safest place in the world? What a joke. This is chaotic and I hate school violence :/
|
Bullying is the main reason why so many of these troubled kids shoot them.
They think there's no way out.
I can understand where these kids are coming from, pulling a gun and shooting the ones who torment you day in and day out.
Somewhat justified, somewhat not.
Regardless, something NEEDS to change.
|
On February 29 2012 15:11 RicochetSEA wrote:
Bullying is the main reason why so many of these troubled kids shoot them.
They think there's no way out.
I can understand where these kids are coming from, pulling a gun and shooting the ones who torment you day in and day out.
Somewhat justified, somewhat not.
Regardless, something NEEDS to change.
Oh... My... God...
Please read the thread before you post. Please.
|
Made me sad that one got killed because of one idiot. Sadly these kinds of things seems to be just growing every year with one or two shootings.
|
On February 29 2012 15:15 PeZuY wrote:
Made me sad that one got killed because of one idiot. Sadly these kinds of things seems to be just growing every year with one or two shootings.
Sorry to make you more sad but a few died, not just 1.
|
On February 29 2012 15:11 RicochetSEA wrote:
Bullying is the main reason why so many of these troubled kids shoot them.
They think there's no way out.
I can understand where these kids are coming from, pulling a gun and shooting the ones who torment you day in and day out.
Somewhat justified, somewhat not.
Regardless, something NEEDS to change.
Posts like these are exactly why I think that rhs ought to edit his first post ASAP. So many people just read the OP before responding.
EDIT: The title could also be updated to reflect the fact that 3 students have now died from the shooting.
|
For shame :\ What has the world come to?!
|
The shooter had some degree of motive to shoot at least one victim -- one of his old friends was dating his old girl friend. So the OP may be wrong about all the victims being randomly selected.
|
On February 29 2012 15:03 chaK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 13:32 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 13:25 Kerwin wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. You obviously don't live in the south... I live in New York State. Where pompous atheists insult anyone of faith for "being an ignorant idiot." And then claim that the religious are the ones shoving views down people's throats. Of course not all atheists are like this, however the majority I have met are. There's a difference between "shoving views down people's throats" and "educating". For example, if someone genuinely believes that 2 + 2 = 6, it is every sane person's moral obligation to teach them that 2 + 2 is actually equal to 4. People cry "hurr durr shovin' yer views down mah throat" when they don't like what they hear, even if it is objectively correct. If everyone believed what they wanted to regardless of what was true, the world would be in fucking chaos.
I really don't want to derail this thread, but your post does nothing except prove his point. If you are naive enough to think that determining the existence of God is something as simple as basic mathematics, then so be it. However, I would assume you claim to be an intellectual like most atheists, so please throw the irrelevant analogies out of the way and get to your point. "God doesn't exist, and people who believe he exists are merely uneducated" is what is implied here. Quite the paradox that you cannot even acknowledge how this is the exact same as what is on the other end of the spectrum, which is jehovah's witnesses knocking on peoples' doors. Don't be a hypocrite.
From an existentialist point of view, everyone has the right to believe in what they want to. It's not your job to tell them what they should or should not believe in. As long as their beliefs don't infringe on your rights as a human being, it should be of no concern to you. It's not your job to "educate" them either, because there is no educating to be done here. This isn't a fucking math class. If there are beliefs rooted from a religion that don't allow for scientific concepts to coexist, then there could be an issue. But, there are some things that even atheists could use some "educating" with - A Large percentage of theists believe in evolution, for example (science and religion are not mutually exclusive, surprise surprise...). However, this isn't part of the bigger picture that i'm addressing.
The only moral obligation you have is to respect the beliefs of other people. If you went to a school where 99% of people were theists and you were constantly harassed for being atheist... i'm sure you see where i'm going with this...
I can attest to ampsons observation, because I see it all the time, and I'm in Canada.
|
On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid.
This.
Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying.
Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying.
I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
|
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting.
|
On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
Where the hell do you draw the line if you were going to make it illegal? Bullying obviously has varying degrees of severity and effects people in different ways. We can't go ape shit with repercussions just because some immature kid is mean to another kid.
|
On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting.
i think they weren't specifically talking about this case, but led into the hypothetical 'bullies deserve to be killed' argument, which seems to come up in almost every thread involving violence and school kids.
as much as i hate bullies, intentionally murdering anyone is a completely uncomparable level of unforgivable selfishness, evil and crazy. i think anyone who disagree's with this has a seriously flawed view on morality.
assume a bully makes 2-3 years of your life a living hell, if you kill them you're condemning yourself for at least 20 years, effectively ruining your life. not to mention your family and friends will never look at you in the same way... also, the family and friends of the deceased are completely innocent and will undoubtedly suffer for years thanks to the cowardly acts of the 'victim'.
these bully victims should realise there are likely thousands of kids worldwide who get picked on and bulled more than them, who feel equally helpless - but will go on to live successful and happy lives. meanwhile, the emo narcicistic weirdos think they'll make a difference by making a stand and killing their bully, with no thought about anyone but themselves.
|
On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting.
I fully agree with this. I spined up and admitted I had no good answer for capital punishment accidentally executing an innocent person. It's just pathetic these people can't admit they were wrong, and that they spoke out of turn based purely on assumption and conjecture.
I just saw the mother of one of the murdered kid's on TV...
Fucking heart breaking. Literally couldn't imagine that. Wake up one morning, take your son to school. Wake up the next, take him to his funeral.
|
On March 01 2012 01:41 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting. I fully agree with this. I spined up and admitted I had no good answer for capital punishment accidentally executing an innocent person. It's just pathetic these people can't admit they were wrong, and that they spoke out of turn based purely on assumption and conjecture. I just saw the mother of one of the murdered kid's on TV... Fucking heart breaking. Literally couldn't imagine that. Wake up one morning, take your son to school. Wake up the next, take him to his funeral. Dude it wasn't my fault, the OP was shitty and all direction of any discussion comes from OP.
Since there was no bullying and such I admit I was wrong, the shooter deserves to be jailed for life.
|
On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
Read. The. Thread.
There are just as many accounts saying that the kid wasn't really bullied as there are accounts that say he was. No one really knows what his motives were (yet), so drawing the conclusion that he did this because he was bullied is asinine.
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that bullying isn't serious, it most definitely is. But it is not "understandable" that a kid murdered 3 of his peers and attempted to murder 2 more, even if he was bullied.
And your last paragraph is laughable. Illegal? On what basis? The overwhelming majority of bullying occurs between minors, what exactly will you accomplish by making it illegal, and who will investigate/prosecute for it? Where do you draw the line between poking fun at your friends and bullying? What is the penalty? Community service? Fines (lol)? Jail time?
It's up to the adults that spend time around these kids to figure out when bullying is occurring, how serious it is, and how best to resolve it. No one else.
|
On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably.
Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that.
On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist.
The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
|
Remind me never to get shot should such tragedy happen in my school. Wouldn't want people to claim video games made bully out of me yet. Freaking media -_-
|
On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
If you really gave a shit about people being bullied you would actively seek out/ascertain which people were and by whom and actually intervene yourself, and im sure making something illegal would solve all the problems. Look what weve learned from every law ever made: more often than not it exascerbates the problem and imagine this, even makes it more common!
|
On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
Lol, so there's never been a bully that's an atheist?
|
This.
Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying.
Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying.
I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and hig
Ih school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
I don't think you understand the mentality of school shooters at all, or the circumstances in which they occur.
It isn't about bullying, its a power, or the lack of therof, and a personality that is unable to tolerate existing in a state of powerlessness.
I'm not trying to justify or decry their actions. All I'm saying is that any bullying that would be punishable under any system (Surely you're not going to punish rejection from social groups angry glares right or passive aggressiveness right?) is not what triggers these actions.
There are many individuals who are bullied, and almost all these individuals do not lash out in violent rage against society. It takes an individual who possesses a combination to varying degrees of personality traits such as paranoia, narcissism , sociopathy, and schizotypicality who when put in an enviroment of powerlessness within the schools social context, often the result of those aforementioned traits, who will lash out in violent and extreme measures.
Moreover, these individuals don't need to feel victimized. The trigger is a combination of emotional instability, poorly developed emotional maturity and powerlessness, not actual punishment by the social body.
"Bullying" describes neither the societal nor individual problems which cause school shootings to occur at all. In fact, I'd wager there might well be a inverse correlation between the frequency of bulling in public schools and school shootings. Correlation doesn't indicate causation of course, but it sure as hell doesn't support your perspective either.
|
I mean just look at his facebook post, lol.
![[image loading]](http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width_scaled/hash/c0/d3/Screen%20Shot%202012-02-27%20at%202.47.17%20PM.png)
I make no moral judgements. I don't believe in em. However, I do believe in analysis and you'd have to be blind not to see very prominently the four traits I just mentioned. And in that case it isn't bullying that set off the trigger. There is simply no way to interpret it that way. I don't even believe that the personality traits that caused this always manifest poorly in individuals. I'm sure we'd be bereft some of our greatest works of art poetry and literature without them. However, what happened happened, focus on the actual issues kthx :p.
edit:
I wonder if this 17 year old is consciously referring to the black death as a beneficient force for the serfs of europe by increasing class mobility and becoming partially responsible for eventually creating the only middle class europe has known for a thousand years. huh.
|
On March 01 2012 07:15 DMBJonesy wrote:Lol, so there's never been a bully that's an atheist?
Are you trolling, or just really bad at reading comprehension?
|
ugly psychopaths like this disgust me so much, no idea how someone could be willing to take anyone else life for any reason. Completely disgusting and pitiful o_O
We used to blame it on video games, marilyn
Now we blame it on bullying
How about blaming it on the actual person who pulled the trigger for once? O_O There was no bullying but even if there was the victims didn't deserve to die. Seriously.
|
On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
|
On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two. I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
non-anecdotal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx
|
Take away the guns, take away the shootings.
|
Little bit too much deja vu..
|
On March 01 2012 13:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two. I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already. non-anecdotal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx
Evidence of what? That Christians "hurt everyone else" via "bullying" or "outright violence"?
Are we really trying to turn a discussion about a school shooting into another patented TL religion-thread funfest?
|
On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
~52 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist presidential candidate. Atheists are the most hated minority group in America, with 40% of Americans expressing that atheists are a group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society", well ahead of Muslims (34%) and African-Americans (27%). It's very obvious that despite the small amount of research on the issue, that atheists are a minority group that is discriminated against, and Christians are not.
By contrast, the Christian majority enjoys widespread popularity, enough so that every President ever has been Christian and enough that a majority of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Over the last century, religiously-motivated Christian terrorists have included the KKK and abortion clininc bombers such as the Army of God. Most hate against LGBTs in America also comes from Christians. Christians regularly push for legislation and legal structures that discriminate against everyone else, such as teaching Biblical creationism in schools, including the Ten Commandments on public structures, and allowing/requiring prayer in schools. What, you think just because we haven't done research on religion in kids that the social tables are turned completely upside down and the supermajority becomes the oppressed somehow?
Are seriously arguing that Christians are an oppressed/bullied group, or that atheists oppress them? I can't tell if you're really that uninformed or just trolling. You can find tons of cases where Christians as a group oppress, attack, and bully individuals who are not Christian by doing a simple Google search. Hell, you can even find evidence of Christian groups doing their best to protect Christian bullies. By contrast, I challenge you to provide a single case where atheists as a group oppress or bully others.
|
So, apparently the going rate for murder now is about 4 years. The courts are charging him as a juvenile, which means if convicted he will stay in juvy until he reaches the age of 21. How pathetic... At his age you know the serious consequences of murder.
|
On March 01 2012 03:57 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 01:41 kellenr wrote:On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting. I fully agree with this. I spined up and admitted I had no good answer for capital punishment accidentally executing an innocent person. It's just pathetic these people can't admit they were wrong, and that they spoke out of turn based purely on assumption and conjecture. I just saw the mother of one of the murdered kid's on TV... Fucking heart breaking. Literally couldn't imagine that. Wake up one morning, take your son to school. Wake up the next, take him to his funeral. Dude it wasn't my fault, the OP was shitty and all direction of any discussion comes from OP. Since there was no bullying and such I admit I was wrong, the shooter deserves to be jailed for life.
Well said. I totally agree the OP was misleading, and kind of started this flame fest. Not that it was really even his fault, it's the medias fault for shoving a camera into the terrified, traumatized face of some kid that's just had the worst experience of his life. No shit facts are going to get twisted.
|
|
|
There is no reason to resort to lethal force in order to solve personal problems. Ever. And really how expensive are metal detectors in the grand scheme of things?
|
On March 02 2012 09:01 Kestralisk wrote:
There is no reason to resort to lethal force in order to solve personal problems. Ever. And really how expensive are metal detectors in the grand scheme of things?
Metal detectors and personnel to man them are quite expensive. As much as a human life? No. But that line of argument doesn't suddenly create money to buy them with.
|
On March 02 2012 09:05 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 09:01 Kestralisk wrote:
There is no reason to resort to lethal force in order to solve personal problems. Ever. And really how expensive are metal detectors in the grand scheme of things? Metal detectors and personnel to man them are quite expensive. As much as a human life? No. But that line of argument doesn't suddenly create money to buy them with.
It's not only money. No school is willing to ruin its own reputation by basically declaring that its pupils are so dangerous they need to check them for weapons every day. We'd need a law for that so it gets compulsory. But then you'd be even more right: that would cost.
Not to mention that school would need to start early because 500-1500 students had to queue every morning before being let into school.
|
|
|
|
|
In all fairness, it just looks like innocent poetry. Dark poetry, sure. But innocent nonetheless.
|
On March 02 2012 03:19 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already. + Show Spoiler +~52 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist presidential candidate. Atheists are the most hated minority group in America, with 40% of Americans expressing that atheists are a group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society", well ahead of Muslims (34%) and African-Americans (27%). It's very obvious that despite the small amount of research on the issue, that atheists are a minority group that is discriminated against, and Christians are not. By contrast, the Christian majority enjoys widespread popularity, enough so that every President ever has been Christian and enough that a majority of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Over the last century, religiously-motivated Christian terrorists have included the KKK and abortion clininc bombers such as the Army of God. Most hate against LGBTs in America also comes from Christians. Christians regularly push for legislation and legal structures that discriminate against everyone else, such as teaching Biblical creationism in schools, including the Ten Commandments on public structures, and allowing/requiring prayer in schools. What, you think just because we haven't done research on religion in kids that the social tables are turned completely upside down and the supermajority becomes the oppressed somehow? Are seriously arguing that Christians are an oppressed/bullied group, or that atheists oppress them? I can't tell if you're really that uninformed or just trolling. You can find tons of cases where Christians as a group oppress, attack, and bully individuals who are not Christian by doing a simple Google search. Hell, you can even find evidence of Christian groups doing their best to protect Christian bullies. By contrast, I challenge you to provide a single case where atheists as a group oppress or bully others.
No, I am not "seriously arguing" that Christians are a universally oppressed group nor that atheists as a rule oppress them. I've looked back over my posts, and I have no earthly idea what would gave you that impression that I was.
What I was trying to do was point out an unfair polemic and maybe head off a large, angry, off-topic religion/atheism exchange in this thread. But such an argument doesn't seem to be catching on anyways so I suppose in actuality my fears were misguided and I am doing as much to precipitate one as you are. I repent and promise not to repeat such errors in this thread in the future.
|
Notorious High School Shooter T.J. Lane Escapes From Prison
T.J. Lane, who was serving three life sentences for a notorious high school shooting spree, escaped tonight from an Ohio prison, officials said.
Lane, who is now 19, broke out of the Allen Correctional Facility along with two other prisoners. One was soon captured, but the other still at large was identified as Clifford Opperud, 45.
Officials are warning residents of Lima, Ohio, near the prison to not open doors to strangers or pick up hitchhikers. A police dragnet was moving through the town and police asked residents not to tweet the location of officers.
"They are considered dangerous," Allen County Sheriff Sam Crish told ABC News. He said it wasn't clear if they were armed, but nevertheless were still "considered to be very dangerous."
Lane shot and killed three students at Chardon High School on Feb. 27, 2012. He was sentenced to three life sentences. Three other students were wounded.
Lane's escape set off alarms in Chardon, Ohio, which is three hours by cars from the prison. The Chardon school district issued a statement Thursday night saying it was monitoring the manhunt and that it was considering closing the schools on Friday because "the safety and well-being of our students, staff and community remain our highest priority."
Chardon Police Chief William Niehus told ABC News affiliate WEWS that the possibility that Lane would head for Chardon is "something for us to be concerned about... If these folks are listening, they know if they come here, they're going to get caught."
Timothy Hewlin, the father of Demetrius Hewlin who was killed by Lane, was outraged by the escape.
"This cannot be happening. This guy killed my son and killed three kids. What type of system are they running here?" he demanded.
Lane's court appearances were marked by crude and shocking behavior. At his sentencing hearing Lane stunned the victims' families and his own lawyer when he unbuttoned his shirt to reveal a T-shirt with the word "killer" scrawled across the front. He spewed vile and unprintable words at the families of three students he killed, gave them the finger and then laughed and smiled as they described him as an animal and a monster.
Lane chuckled when the judge sentenced him to three life terms in prison with no chance for parole.
Lane was waiting for a bus to an alternative school when he killed three students at Chardon High School. Daniel Parmertor, 16, Demetrius Hewlin, 16, and Russell King Jr., 17, died in the attack. King had been dating Lane's former girlfriend, students told ABC News at the time.
Ian Friedman was Lane's lawyer and said he had spent hundreds of hours with him. "T.J. Lane is exceptionally smart there is no doubt about that. If anyone could escape it would have to be someone of that level of intelligence,” Friedman told ABC News.
“People ask me if he is dangerous. The facts speak for themselves,” he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/notorious-high-school-shooter-tj-lane-escapes-prison/story?id=25446686
Damn
thats scary
I would like to know the details of how he escaped
|
On September 12 2014 14:17 simmeh wrote:Show nested quote +Notorious High School Shooter T.J. Lane Escapes From Prison
T.J. Lane, who was serving three life sentences for a notorious high school shooting spree, escaped tonight from an Ohio prison, officials said.
Lane, who is now 19, broke out of the Allen Correctional Facility along with two other prisoners. One was soon captured, but the other still at large was identified as Clifford Opperud, 45.
Officials are warning residents of Lima, Ohio, near the prison to not open doors to strangers or pick up hitchhikers. A police dragnet was moving through the town and police asked residents not to tweet the location of officers.
"They are considered dangerous," Allen County Sheriff Sam Crish told ABC News. He said it wasn't clear if they were armed, but nevertheless were still "considered to be very dangerous."
Lane shot and killed three students at Chardon High School on Feb. 27, 2012. He was sentenced to three life sentences. Three other students were wounded.
Lane's escape set off alarms in Chardon, Ohio, which is three hours by cars from the prison. The Chardon school district issued a statement Thursday night saying it was monitoring the manhunt and that it was considering closing the schools on Friday because "the safety and well-being of our students, staff and community remain our highest priority."
Chardon Police Chief William Niehus told ABC News affiliate WEWS that the possibility that Lane would head for Chardon is "something for us to be concerned about... If these folks are listening, they know if they come here, they're going to get caught."
Timothy Hewlin, the father of Demetrius Hewlin who was killed by Lane, was outraged by the escape.
"This cannot be happening. This guy killed my son and killed three kids. What type of system are they running here?" he demanded.
Lane's court appearances were marked by crude and shocking behavior. At his sentencing hearing Lane stunned the victims' families and his own lawyer when he unbuttoned his shirt to reveal a T-shirt with the word "killer" scrawled across the front. He spewed vile and unprintable words at the families of three students he killed, gave them the finger and then laughed and smiled as they described him as an animal and a monster.
Lane chuckled when the judge sentenced him to three life terms in prison with no chance for parole.
Lane was waiting for a bus to an alternative school when he killed three students at Chardon High School. Daniel Parmertor, 16, Demetrius Hewlin, 16, and Russell King Jr., 17, died in the attack. King had been dating Lane's former girlfriend, students told ABC News at the time.
Ian Friedman was Lane's lawyer and said he had spent hundreds of hours with him. "T.J. Lane is exceptionally smart there is no doubt about that. If anyone could escape it would have to be someone of that level of intelligence,” Friedman told ABC News.
“People ask me if he is dangerous. The facts speak for themselves,” he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/notorious-high-school-shooter-tj-lane-escapes-prison/story?id=25446686Damn thats scary I would like to know the details of how he escaped
They will NEVER publish that. It would encourage additional escape attempts. They only mention the crazy escapes like that one guy who escaped a Quebec prison via a stole helicopter coming and picking him up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
