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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 07:47 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
I'd say society is to blame more than the school. To me, this is the same thing as saying "no one is to blame." You have to explicitly state who is responsible for this type of thing, or no one is. Clearly a school should deal with bullying, but the real question is how parents could raise a child that would commit these sorts of crimes.
So if there was no bullying in schools would that be to the school's credit or society's credit? A school in the US can no more be made responsible for eliminating bullying than a school in Afghanistan can be made responsible for eliminating sexism. These are more complicated social phenomena than that. Maybe the source of the bullying was something related to a social construct -- i.e. something society has placed importance on. Putting ownership for this problem at somebody's doorstep is just looking for a scapegoat and denying that you're a small part of a bigger problem. Are the parents partly responsible? For allowing the kid to get a hold of a gun absolutely, but I had very responsible parents and I still did stupid things as a kid that my parents never found out about, they had no way of finding out about, and that would have been difficult to control. How much responsibility can you just automatically put on the parents plate? The schools? Society's emphasis on gun ownership and self defense might have something to do with it too you know.
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Some of the kids in the school have reportedly been claiming he wasn't bullied.. Said he was just quiet.
Maybe he was an extreme introvert and lashed out on a single altercation. As of yet we do not know, so maybe we should just wait a while before we condone the murder and maiming of 5 people.
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FYI the headline on CNN right now is "Alleged suspect bullied for his clothes" (which were apparently "goth")
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On February 28 2012 07:48 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:35 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:28 Endymion wrote:On February 28 2012 07:27 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. Oh really? How come the school doesn't step up to the plate and offer reason and order? Parents? Adults? Any classmates? ANYONE?! yeah, they're at fault. does this mean bringing a gun in to shoot someone deserves our pride and empathy? No it doesn't and no one in this thread to my knowledge has said that shooting them was the right thing to do. However, what are your solutions to the victim of bullies as no one gives a single fuck? Should he have committed suicide? Should he just get bullied forever? I don't know, how does everyone deal with bullying? it's part of human life, when you come in to contact with others it tends to happen because people are egocentric and stupid. it doesn't end at the end of highschool.. i don't see people walking around with glocks in nyc because they want to shoot some random person being rude to them, we live in civilization. use wit to get yourself out of these situations, not violence.. and people ARE being empathetic towards the shooter, just like they were towards columbine and towards virginia tech.. Thing is, it's not the witty guys or those who know an elegant way out of a tricky situation that get bullied. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:44 nimbus99 wrote:On February 28 2012 04:33 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
How many more times is something like this going to happen before bullying is taken seriously? ^ This. Nobody wants to talk bad about victims but people really need to look at the truth. As someone who was bullied mercilessly in middle school I can say from experience that I know how these kids who snap feel - and honestly given my warped state of mind back then, if I had managed to get my hands on a gun, I might very well have gone the same way. Doesn't make it right, obviously, but these kids are at their wit's end. Excuse me? I find it odd how you would admit you were close to killing people. Really scares me, especially the "if i had managed to get my hands on a gun" part. I think showing some consideration for the shooter is not far fetched, but you went too far in relating to him. He's just stating what he felt back then. It might scare you but if that's what was going through his head, why shouldn't be allowed to say that?
Aww thanks, man. Yeah, point is, I seem normal and happy now but man seven years ago...wow I shiver to think of it. It was not pretty. Looking at myself back then, I can only come up with the word "deranged". Bullying does weird things to your head...especially if nothing's done about it.
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Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
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On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
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On February 28 2012 08:09 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools? My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
I agree with this, and I also think it is because bullying is very prevalent in US schools, and it is often disregarded by people of authority in schools.
While I was growing up, I knew of MANY kids who got bullied, including myself (although I wasn't bullied nearly as bad as other people I knew), and the authorities at school rarely did anything about it.
When kids hit an absolute bottom, sometimes the worst happens, it's sad, but true.
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Shooter is identified as T.J. Lane.
According to a couple sites there is a message on his facebook:
+ Show Spoiler +In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you.
Edit: Hmmm apparently this photo is wrong.
Sources:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/shooting-reported-at-ohio-high-school/?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=9818809
http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/ohio-school-shooter-facebook/
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On February 28 2012 08:13 liberal wrote:Shooter is identified as T.J. Lane. According to a couple sites there is a message on his facebook: + Show Spoiler +In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of "why do we exist?" His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, allthose ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn't care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer's Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. "Stay back!" The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. "Oh God, have mercy, please!" The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I'm on the lamb but I ain't no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. Edit: Hmmm apparently this photo is wrong. Sources: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/shooting-reported-at-ohio-high-school/?hpt=hp_t1http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=9818809http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/ohio-school-shooter-facebook/
Shit, some people are so fucked up. I hate reading about this stuff. That FB message is pretty ridiculous, it's too bad that people who are this fucked in the brain get a hold of guns and hurt innocent people.
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Kid shoulda used his fists instead of a gun. I've been on both the recieving end of bullying and i've also partaken in it.
In 6th grade we had a kid in class who would jump at every opportunity to get me and my friends in trouble. Long story short.. this resulted in his 6th grade year being absolute hell.
Later in HS as a freshman, A senior on the football team decided one day he was going to make my life a living hell. It culminated in me being shoved into a group of girls who where sitting eating lunch. I responded by kneeing him in the nuts and was never bothered again.
I understand both sides of this problem, and no matter how I look at it.. This murderer was a coward.
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My train of thought:
1) Another school shooting, what a douche.
2) Oh he was bullied? Well that's a little more understandable. Bullies are douches
3) Well the bullies were probably raised in a poor environment. The parents must be douches.
4) The parents are probably a product of a terrible system that is simply cycling around. Society is a douche.
5) This line of thinking is worthless...
I think putting the blame of this tragedy on the shooter, the victims, or any other person or group of people is the wrong mindset here. The point is we have to stop the chain of events somewhere, whether it be with teacher intervention, better parenting, etc. Unfortunately, it's not exactly an easy problem to solve.
On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians.
It's also a lot easier to be so logical and calm when you're on the internet too. We're not barbarians, but we're not robots either. Especially with adolescents, how can you expect them to be the most logical beings when they are placed under repeated stress, with no easy escape?
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On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open.
Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada.
I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims.
I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
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On February 28 2012 08:19 Kernalkraze wrote:
Kid shoulda used his fists instead of a gun. I've been on both the recieving end of bullying and i've also partaken in it.
In 6th grade we had a kid in class who would jump at every opportunity to get me and my friends in trouble. Long story short.. this resulted in his 6th grade year being absolute hell.
Later in HS as a freshman, A senior on the football team decided one day he was going to make my life a living hell. It culminated in me being shoved into a group of girls who where sitting eating lunch. I responded by kneeing him in the nuts and was never bothered again.
I understand both sides of this problem, and no matter how I look at it.. This murderer was a coward.
No case of bullying is like the other.
There was one guy against you and your friends in 6th grade? And then later in HS there was again, one guy against you? I don't know how your situation was, but your reaction (kick in the nuts) made it seem like you were somewhat clear-headed and not totally intimidated. Not saying that this T.J. guy was, but just imagine he had it way worse than you. E.g. bullied by more people, more thoroughly, no friends, no family to back him up and a shy and easily intimated person. How's that look now?
Again, not saying that's how it was. But from your story alone (plus given the fact that you admit having participated in bullying yourself) you can't say how he was supposed to react or, more importantly, how he was capable to react.
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heard about this at work today, absolutely terrible. hate to see something like this happen
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On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy.
Again, if that's what it was.
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On February 28 2012 08:09 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools? My guess is because of all the attention it receives... shoot up a school and ruin your life, but at least you get 15 minutes of fame?
That's a callous outlook, imo. Shooting people to get attention... there's more than that it imo but even if there wasn't, don't all of us have the need to be wanted ? If you don't get any attention, then you might get desperate and fall prey to insanity.
I mean, you don't go to your school and shoot people without a reason, do you ? Bullying doesn't have to be the reason - generally, there has to be something very, very wrong in the life of such an individual.
If you have companionship, friends, some meaningful relationships, perspectives, relatively decent life, then do you go and shoot people at school ? What kind of a healthy individual would do that ?
The tragedy occurs before the shooting, it's just that people see it when the shooting actually occurs. The shooting is just a culmination point where it manifests clearly.
It all comes down to these callous structures of society, imo. Really, such stuff wouldn't happen if people were a bit more caring.
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As someone who was bullied for over 16 years in school quite badly, things like this make me feel so lucky. It is a shame because Bullies are 100% at fault but there are reasons for their actions. Victims are just very unlucky and it is a shame that stuff like this has to happen. It's a waste of life. No one deserves to die in this world.
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On February 28 2012 08:07 Rafael wrote:
Not mean to bash.
But why this happen often in your schools?
I think I can answer this one pretty well. In Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings (The book resulted in a study mandated by congress to study the cause of school shootings, and their social ramifications)
Basically, there used to be very few school shootings, and it's because there was no "script." Originally, if someone wanted to haul off and murder a large number of their classmates, there wasn't an official social template to follow to make it happen. So, in the begining, the first school shooters used movies for their templates. Commonly sighted motivating movies relating to Columbine were "The Basketball Diaries" and "Natural Born Killers."
Now here's where things get really dangerous. Once a truly massive school shooting happened (Columbine) that garnered tremendous media attention, the new would-be shooters had a template -- but not just any template. They had a step by step plan recited to them by the news media on just exactly how to kill and maim as many as possible. This is why school shooting have progressively gotten worse. Because the template isn't just movies anymore, it's other school shootings.
And once that flood gate broke open, there was no stopping it. New school shooters borrow movites and ideas from old school shooters -- not only do they borrow, they expand the narrative, and write an even better template for the next shooter. They feel connected to each other and crave adulation.
But yeah, kids kill for all kinds of nutty reasons that don't make sense to you or I (mainly because we're normal, feeling, empathetic humans, and we assume others are as well. P.S. - they aren't.)
Anyone ever seen the documentary In Coldest Blood? These two kids murdered their close friend just for the fun of it. They made their own "horror" movie masks, broke into her house knowing her parents were out of town, and stabbed her like 20 times. They even filmed her the morning before they did it, at her locker. It's fucking chilling.
read about it here.
He said, "The horror and the pain she must of felt when the blades of those knives entered her body and she finally realized that she was being murdered by her friends is unimaginable."
Or just watch the documentary, it's even better.
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On February 28 2012 08:30 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority. Ever been bullied? Ever had somewhat comparable feelings of loneliness, desperation and anger? If not, well, I'm not surprised you don't feel empathy. Again, if that's what it was.
Ever been shot? Ever had a loved one shot? Do you know the feelings of pain and desperation they go through during reconstructive surgery?
If not, well, i'm not surprised you don't feel empathy for them. (wait, yes I am.)
Hiedeman reminded Judge McDermott, "He had no pity on Cassie Jo, he deserves no pity, he showed no mercy on September 22nd, 2006 and he deserves none."
Have fun feeling sorry for murderers. I, for one, will take no part in it.
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EPT
