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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 05:41 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:28 Spieltor wrote:On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate. Working on my Master's in psych currently, but sure, atleast I didn't make up stuff. I understand that there is genetic predisposition to some of the pieces of bullying (violence, oppression, alpha/beta interaction), but the entirety of this situation is psychological bullying that has practically no place in the animal kingdom. Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction. Boiling down my opinion to "mystical" is an inane strawman. You fabricated a lie to support your point and I dismissed the point. Genetics give you a predisposition to many things but are not more effective than conditioning for societal interaction. Period. Anyone who took psych 101 would understand this. The split identical twin studies show that while they're very similar physically, their opinions and ideas on the world and general are vastly determined by who raised them. edit: I'm obviously speaking in the general, here, as there are obviously extreme cases of genetic predisposition to erratic and uncontrollable behavior as per your socio- and psychopaths. The average child, on the other hand, is product of their environment for their behavior. I'd say to return your degree and go back to school and actually study this time. Show nested quote + Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction. dolphins, chickens, and apes are examples of the same human behavior you think is so singular. you realize dolphins rape, murder, kidnap, bully, and have sex with animals from different species? humans are not unique, because their behavior is driven by genetics. dolphins alone should prove that. hell, chickens aren't even in the same groups as dolphins or man but they bully like mad. I actually grew up on a farm. no further arguments you have will be read or considered by me. edit: I realize you'll will have an argument with the dolphin bit so I'll state it thus: Dolphins evolved via genetics and are exhibiting the same social behaviors of humans. humans evolved via genetics and exhibit the same social behaviors as dolphins. The common link is the building blocks of life.
Yeah, humans are animals, but school bullying is much more complex than dolphin bullying. I'm surprised someone would even make this a point. It's ludicrous, not because humans are exempt from animal behavior -- far from it. Our behavior is just so much more stupidly complicated for reasons associated with our cognitive advancement. Animals don't type on computers or have active cognitive reasoning with themselves about the actions they take.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies
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How the fuq did a kid had easily access to a gun?
Oh...wait....United States :/
User was warned for this post
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On February 28 2012 05:43 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote:
Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad? Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose. A lot of people on TL, for whatever reason, are all about applying the death penalty to minors who mistreat other minors.
A lot of people on TL, for whatever reason, are all about not understanding, then misrepresenting others arguments in pointless flame posts, for the sole reason of increasing their post count.
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Thank you to whoever put up the warning; that sums things up nicely...
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On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies
I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do.
Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways.
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On February 28 2012 05:50 EL33T_COL wrote:
How the fuq did a kid had easily access to a gun?
Oh...wait....United States :/ Ignorance is bliss sir.
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Well until the victim blaming in the public school system stops, and cases of bullying are taken as seriously as cases of assault involving adult parties (IE dealt with by the legal system instead of slaps on the wrist from schools) then things like this are just going to continue happening.
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bullying destroys lives, as does guns
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Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:53 ranshaked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do. Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways.
That's good for you. But as you can see throughout this thread, there are plenty who have very different experiences. Depending on the age/severity of the bullying, it is a much more significant issue.
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On February 28 2012 05:57 red_ wrote:
Updating as much as I can before I have to leave for class:
This part is still an unconfirmed rumor, but a rumor that comes from the people at the school: TJ was on the bad end of a drug deal(got some fake dope, wasn't happy about it).
He didn't even go to Chardon, he was there to catch a bus to Auburn Career Center for PSEO, and Chardon happens to be a hub for people attending that from the local schools. The people he targeted also go to Auburn for PSEO, except for the female, who was completely uninvolved. He was a 'special needs' student(not for learning disability, but for counseling of some sort), so there could be a level of mental illness.
He was actually chased out of the cafeteria by a teacher, and turned to shoot the teacher(missed all shots). When he ran off of school grounds, all local schools were put on lockdown, and some nearby businesses as well. He didn't just walk in and shoot, he was sitting at a table for quite some time, built up whatever emotions he required to go through with it, stood up and opened fire(his first bullet grazed the ear of a kid sitting right in front of him, minor detail but he was interviewed and his ear was bloody so it's worth tossing in there).
That's all I have for now, the local media is actually being incredibly thorough interviewing kids and staff and getting out facts about the event, hopefully their detail is proliferated to the national media outlets so people can hear the real story.
Thank you for the update!
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On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote:
I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head.
Wow, really? Wtf, its people like you that get these threads closed.
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On February 28 2012 05:57 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:53 ranshaked wrote:On February 28 2012 05:49 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do. I'm tired of seeing uneducated, thoughtless bullshit like this. Yes, we all have to deal with "jerks" in our lives, and it would be wrong for us to be shielded from that competely as children. Being bullied does not teach you how to deal with "jerks." Being bullied teaches you how it feels to have a sadistic power figure systematically push you down, using whatever tools they have available to them. Being bullied teaches you about feeling utterly powerless. Jerks !=bullies I disagree. I am a stronger, more balanced person because I was bullied. I have respect for those that deal with bullies, and I also understand those that are the bullies. It taught me to be strong and not back down, as well as think about why people do what they do. Being bullied every day for years taught me to suck it up, and eventually punch back (metaphorically) in other ways. That's good for you. But as you can see throughout this thread, there are plenty who have very different experiences. Depending on the age/severity of the bullying, it is a much more significant issue. Exactly, I don't understand why people can't get it in their brains that not all bullying is the same, and that not everyone can take bullying the same, just because you got out of it fine doesn't mean others can fuck.
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obious solution is for everyone to carry firearms, all the time
duh
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Pretty sad stuff, and what is sadder is that this is not becoming all that rare. But I would be willing to bet that eventually someone *cough* Fox News *cough* will boil it down to something other than bullying. Maybe he played "violent video games" or listen to "Devil music" or did drugs or had liberal parents. But the idea that it was bullying, oh no! No that is just ridiculous!
Sorry, I am venting to an invisible opponent haha.
Anyway, I really think that bullying should be addressed, but I don't want everything to be handed to kids on a plate, like most things today. I mean, there really is the issue of children growing up with everything handed to them (because of shit like the Human Potential/ Self Esteem movement), and not understanding how to handle a real life situation. Quite a delicate balance.
Also, I saw this brought up in a previous post, I really, REALLY agree that the zero-tolerance for fighting is dumb. I completely understand the idea behind it, but it just doesn't work that way; this law does not mean that all of a sudden students will become pacifists and live together in harmony. It just makes it harder for the kid who is being attacked to defend him or herself. Do they really expect kids, teenagers especially, to become Gandhi 2 and just use their violence against them? No. Even an adult will have a hard time not DEFENDING themselves against a slew of abusers. I really think this whole idea should be rethought (although prevent the loophole of "He attacked me first!").
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I'm waiting for the interview from the teacher that had the audacity to chase him out of the school. I wish events like these didn't seem so common.
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I'm getting really sick and tired of these sort of threads popping on TL every other day. We had the exact same debate 2 weeks ago.
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you know when people go ... i guess the adults will stop the bullying now ... you need to ask a question ... what exactly do you want to do about it?
You see when you leave school the same shit happens.
But then we are 2 generations away from things like the cane so the memory is fading perhaps?
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This is just sad. No kid deserves to get shot so young
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EPT
