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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes: - Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved - Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 28 2012 05:23 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote: I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. Yes the school should give a fuck and should have been doing everything possible to stop the bullying. But to seriously say murdering someone for bullying you is justifiable is kind of mind blowing. Saying people handle things differently doesn't make this justifiable or excusable. To each their own I guess then.
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On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. Show nested quote +there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial.
I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate.
Why are humans capable of being manipulated? why do humans choose their partners based on qualities like "money and ability to provide"? I don't see any hot women falling in love with homeless people. Choose to ignore reality as you like.
you're speaking of intrapersonal behavior? Please google the definition of intrapersonal.. Additionally, behavior on a macrocosmic scale of humanity is going to be the same as behavior on a microcosmic scale, precisely because countries are made up of individual humans.
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On February 28 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote: It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. Someone's dead dude. Whether that person bullied him or not does not excuse that. Youn people do stupid shit, sometimes that involves treating other people poorly or abusively. Sometimes that's the result of them not knowing any better, sometimes that's the result of them not being able to deal with their own personal feelings. Either way it doesn't mean they deserve to die. Yes young people do stupid shit. This an example of one of them only that the consequences of this one turned out to be more serious than bullying. It's an unfortunate incident but if only bullies (i was proven wrong) were involved, then it would've been fortunate that no innocent was harmed in the conflict.
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On February 28 2012 05:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:10 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:53 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 04:37 OmiDeLta wrote:On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote: here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit. I think you're missing the basic point...nobody said it's okay to kill anyone. Nobody. o.o People have only said that they understand the shooter's feelings. Nope, that is the problem. I understand the social majority of this forum will always sympathize with the bullied first, but the act of murder is worse than bullying. Stating your explicit lack of sympathy for the murdered is a very poor stance to take and implies sympathy for the shooter against the bullies. The bullied child needs much more help at this point, but there is no help for the dead. The obvious solution is preventative and it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world. Be more outraged at the parents of both sides, the school system itself, and society for both the tolerance of such things and the ease of which a child of compromised mental health (from said bullying) can get a gun. I feel like in these sorts of threads there's too much of a kneejerk reaction to the situation. Hmmm. While I see and understand your point, I am sorry to say that I disagree - however this is due to personal bias. I was at a point in my life seven years ago where, had I been able to get my hands on a gun, I would have gone the same way. I sympathize with the bullied kid first because I remember the feeling of being ignored, trapped, helpless, crushed...and you honestly don't know what to do. I remember it vividly and I would never wish that situation on anyone. Don't get me wrong - your point is COMPLETELY valid, and yes, murder is worse than bullying; I simply want to explain how the other side feels, calmly, so things don't dissolve into some kind of flame war...and now I'm ranting. Maybe if everyone understood each other, these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, and why do you think most bullies are the way they are? Their home lives are usually desperate, shitty situations and their only outlet similarly is bullying. If you can sympathize with mental duress, you should be able to understand the bullies as well. I was bullied myself but I can take a different perspective on the situation, as I lived in the same neighborhood as my bullies and, in retrospect, I fully understand what home lives they had now and I feel sorry for what they had to put up with as well. 1st level personal bias is one of the worst ways to form an opinion on complex situations and becoming a creature of your trauma is the way these things happen in the first place. Raise awareness on bullying, yes, but an equally big problem is raising the awareness on domestic and child abuse that leads to bullying. Children are not bad people, bullies or not. Saying "I don't sympathize with the dead kid because he was a bully" is incredibly heartless and ignorant. Heh. I never said my opinion was formed on a good basis, only that it was formed. I don't believe that "children are not bad people" - I'm sorry I just don't; for many, many, MANY reasons that I will not go into here - but I never said I didn't sympathize with the dead child at all. I only said I sympathize with the shooter FIRST, then the victim. Twisted? Maybe, and I don't expect everyone - or anyone really - to agree. It's just purely how I feel. No child deserves to die but no child has the right to push their feelings on to another like that, no matter what their home life is like. If the child doesn't know any better, then why doesn't someone tell them? Why do people turn a blind eye? However it seems like these kids were old enough to know better...still it doesn't excuse the lack of involvement. There's no such thing as "old enough to know better." It's purely situational. A 30 year old grown adult taken out of a tribal village won't "know better" in our society because behavior is environmentally dictated. "Knowing better" is a matter of conditioning the right societal interests into the kids. Which is also why you are wrong if you think children just naturally can progress into societal bullying. Bullying is a repeated act of low level harassment and it's like that because the bullies learn from whoever raised them that doing oppressive things that are unlikely to be caught or punished is how you treat people. It is the exact same kind of trauma that bullies inflict on others. If you're old enough to know better you should be able to broaden your view about this. Ignorance to the situation isn't just not condoning bullying.
So are you saying that these bullies only experience their home environments? Sure that may be the primary environment but they see people acting differently all around them. They're old enough to take cues and initiative to stand up for themselves and be better than that. When my life was a living hell, I never, NEVER took it out on anyone else because I knew that it felt awful and wouldn't wish that on someone else. I only ever lashed out in defense, and when my friends, who had worse problems than even I did, wanted to be comforted or needed help, I listened despite adults teaching me that the best way to cope with your problems was to ignore them. Know what I did? I looked around, in books, in media, on the internet, and saw people coping with their problems WITHOUT pushing their feelings on other people. In today's world there is no excuse for not having access to these things. Information is everywhere. I'm sorry for the harsh tone, but I was trying to be nice and saying we can agree to disagree, even admitting I may be in the wrong, but you just keep pushing, and pushing, and calling me ignorant, and narrow, and wrong. You don't let up. Where have we seen this behavior before? Oh right, that's exactly what bullies do, and that's why these kids snap!
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On February 28 2012 05:23 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:20 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:17 Charger wrote:On February 28 2012 05:15 Kamais Ookin wrote:On February 28 2012 05:13 Mark Henry wrote: I was bullied and beaten on all throughout elementary and high school. There is no justification for shooting/killing another human being because they bullied you. This kid wanted to get a gun involved? He should have just shot himself in the head. You're the world's strongest man bro. Everyone is different though, it's not black and white "oh I was bullied and I was fine everyone else should be fine too from being bullied!" That's not how things work. He didn't say he was fine or that everyone should be fine after being bullied. He said there is no justification for killing or attempting to kill someone who bullied you. Bullying is the justification to shoot them, as a last resort anyways. Everyone is different, some can take the prolonged bullying and get fucked in life but not shoot bullies, others reach their peak and snap. The onus is on the SCHOOL to give a FUCK about the bullying going on. Yes the school should give a fuck and should have been doing everything possible to stop the bullying. But to seriously say murdering someone for bullying you is justifiable is kind of mind blowing. Saying people handle things differently doesn't make this justifiable or excusable.
first of all, there are degrees of bullying.
i think if anyone were bullied (that varies for people) to a certain degree, then they would snap and kill someone, especially if their family and environment didn't care about him.
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I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio.
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This kid seems like a psycho, not just a victim of bullying. Here's a post that he made on his facebook.
Describing a fantasy rampage, the Facebook user wrote, “So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. ‘Stay back!’ The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. ‘Oh God, have mercy, please!’” It then ends, “Die, all of you.” Read the full Facebook post: In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of “why do we exist?” His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, all those ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn’t care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer’s Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/27/facebook-message-apparently-from-suspected-ohio-high-school-shooter-die-all-of-you/#ixzz1ncGGsixY
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I think that very most shootings like that are caused by bullies. That is why you can´t do shit about it.
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On February 28 2012 05:28 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Spieltor wrote:
no, bullying is a product of humanity, and alpha and beta types of people.
This has been observed in chickens as well, hence the term "pecking order". Comparing human psychology to animals is preposterous. Human behavior is dictated by society more than by primal instinct (one incurred the other and you can see remnants of it leftover in society, but my point stands). What countries right now are trying to bully what other countries? What the heck? I'm speaking purely about intrapersonal bullying behaviors. This is such an obtuse and unrelated point and a horrific stretch on the term bullying. there will always be bullies just as there will always be people who emit the pheromones and body language and behavior saying "everyone bully me". If you've looked at twins who've been separated for life, they dance the same way to the same music that they've never heard before and are being tested with. the will to bully or the target sign on your back to be bullied is genetically determined. I'm stopping here. Humans don't emit pheromones, you have no idea what you're talking. I was about to humor a debate on what you were saying but you're clearly speaking from a poorly thought out position to start clearly making things up from stuff you hear in popular culture like human pheromones that cause bullying. That's right out of an Axe bodyspray commercial. I'd have a response for you that would detail everything but the short of it is, you have no education on the subject and you're holding to the "mystical" belief that humans are higher than animals from the "divine right" angle that's infected humanity for eons. you know where that came from? from the rationalization (psych term again) to survive because of a basic innate desire to survive and procreate.
Working on my Master's in psych currently, but sure, atleast I didn't make up stuff. I understand that there is genetic predisposition to some of the pieces of bullying (violence, oppression, alpha/beta interaction), but the entirety of this situation is psychological bullying that has practically no place in the animal kingdom. Humans are amazingly unique compared to other animals in social interaction.
Boiling down my opinion to "mystical" is an inane strawman. You fabricated a lie to support your point and I dismissed the point.
Genetics give you a predisposition to many things but are not more effective than conditioning for societal interaction. Period. Anyone who took psych 101 would understand this. The split identical twin studies show that while they're very similar physically, their opinions and ideas on the world and general are vastly determined by who raised them.
edit: I'm obviously speaking in the general, here, as there are obviously extreme cases of genetic predisposition to erratic and uncontrollable behavior as per your socio- and psychopaths. The average child, on the other hand, is product of their environment for their behavior.
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Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them. I hope the dead one gets a Darwin award.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 28 2012 04:35 Silidons wrote: here we go again with the army of people on TL who think that it's okay to shoot and kill someone for the only reason that they're an asshole. once again a person can't deal with their own problems and thinks that it is okay to kill someone for being bullied.
"but they made fun of me so i shot him" oh here is a fucking medal. anyone who does this should go to prison. welcome to earth, where you're going to encounter assholes your entire life. if you think the only way to deal with it is to shoot them, you're bat shit crazy and deserve to be in prison your entire life.
when i was in elementary i would get made fun of sometimes by random kids because my name is very different, but i didn't give a shit.
Guess why pepole become crazy and develop problems in the first place.
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On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote: I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page:
So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too.
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On February 28 2012 05:32 gosuMalicE wrote: Good to know that some more bullies got what was coming to them.
You think that a proper sentence to bullying in a court of law is death by firing squad?
Your name is rather appropriate, I suppose.
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This is why bullying needs to be stopped early
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On February 28 2012 05:33 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote: I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page: Show nested quote +So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too.
I would write things along those lines back when I was going through my hell. Does that make me psychotic? Perhaps this is just an aftereffect of the bullying, an attempt to make himself feel powerful however he can? Could go either way I suppose. Hmm...we shall have to wait and see.
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If he was specifically targeting certain kids then, I'm sorry, but this shooter kid is a total moron. No reason to cause a ruckus and shoot up your high school. Just follow the bully on his way home and at least hope to get away with it without possibly hurting innocent people.
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On February 28 2012 05:00 red_ wrote: This happened at my high school... I'm sure this sentiment is shared by plenty of people who's schools later became the targets of armed violence, but I must say I never thought it would happen at ours. To make things worse, my niece was within a few feet of the shooting(thankfully unharmed) and good friends with one of the injured. The victim that was fatally shot worked at a bowling alley I go to every now and then =/. From what I've been told this is not about bullying, but actually about a drug issue(sounds like someone got screwed on a deal, this is 2nd hand information from the students at the school I have connections to).
I'm not completely broken up about it, but it is a pretty big shakeup when something like this happens 'at home.'
DO tell us more, since you're likely to know more about what really happened, not the media-filtered version of the story that already has drama added. I'd like to hear more about this.
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I'll be totally honest, if all bullies had feared this happening to them, maybe bullying would be self policing? I in no way condone what he did, but perhaps even if it happened more some good might come out of it. Would you pick on someone if you knew it'd result in you getting shot? Not likely...
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On February 28 2012 05:35 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:33 HULKAMANIA wrote:On February 28 2012 05:29 tomatriedes wrote: I lost all sympathy for the shooter when i saw the photos that he posted online of himself posing with guns. That to me doesn't look like someone simply snapping but like some kind of narcissistic braggadocio. Don't forget this little gem from what appears to be T.J. Lane's facebook page: So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you. We don't know for sure that the facebook page is legit, of course, but while we're all posting wild speculation I thought I might as well join in, too. I would write things along those lines back when I was going through my hell. Does that make me psychotic? Perhaps this is just an aftereffect of the bullying, an attempt to make himself feel powerful however he can? Could go either way I suppose. Hmm...we shall have to wait and see. Yeah, if only there were someone in this thread suggesting that everyone quit knee-jerk victim blaming and wait around to see what actual facts surface...
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On February 28 2012 05:28 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:On February 28 2012 05:19 Blasterion wrote: It's fortunate that only bullies were involved and the innocent and people irrelevant to the conflict were unharmed. Someone's dead dude. Whether that person bullied him or not does not excuse that. Youn people do stupid shit, sometimes that involves treating other people poorly or abusively. Sometimes that's the result of them not knowing any better, sometimes that's the result of them not being able to deal with their own personal feelings. Either way it doesn't mean they deserve to die. Yes young people do stupid shit. This an example of one of them only that the consequences of this one turned out to be more serious than bullying. It's an unfortunate incident but if only bullies (i was proven wrong) were involved, then it would've been fortunate that no innocent was harmed in the conflict.
There is a fine line here. What about the teachers who let the bullying go on without intervening? (In my experience it's always pretty obvious which students are getting bullied) What about the other students who didn't intervene or go to the school administration when they saw the bullying going on, are they innocent? If they aren't innocent, surely they are guilty at least in some regard are they not? If they are guilty, is it also not sad if they get killed? What about the parents of the bullies, who let their children become bullies? What about the parents of the bullied kid, who didn't intervene to stop their son's bullying or try to move him to another school? If he shot any of them, would they deserve it too?
Don't be so quick to judge who is innocent and who is not; the world is not black and white. It takes more than a handful of people to create an incident like this; it takes an entire community of people actively ignoring the issue or pretending like it doesn't exist. Maybe they didn't actively push the kid to the edge, but they aren't exactly innocent either.
What is true is that people are dead and gravely wounded, and the life of this bullied kid is effectively forfeit. There's nothing about this that isn't utterly sad.
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