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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote:
As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
no you can´t. there is no way a high master random will lose with 2 rax against 14/14. you dont have creep for a spinecrawler at your natural and not enough lings (because of larva) to hold against marine pushs. even if you hold your way behind in eco cause you cant build drones.
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On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote:
PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
You're never behind going gateway first because you can do so much Artosis on his stream was doing sick things with 3gate expand
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote:
The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what)
So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing. You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
For a lot players half the fun of this game is probably figuring out, practicing and refining matchup and race specific build orders and strategies which they see their favorite pro's use on stream or in tournaments. To a certain extent this is not possible versus random players and therefore it can feel like a waste of time to play against them.
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No pro could play random and have a chance at winning a tournament. They could win rounds due to the gimmicky bullshit of playing random but the fact they have to master 9 different matchups means they can't. Because being a progamer is all about trying to win tournaments you're shooting yourself in both feet by playing random.
But you can play random on ladder because it's fun. Look at all the fun we're having!
And yea, Protoss players get mindfucked by random. Wall off top and die to PvP, don't wall off top and die to Zerg. Cuts off nexus first and forge FE as viable builds, which just wrecks how a lot of people might want to play a certain matchup. I don't play Protoss myself but a mate of mine who does just does proxy 2 gate vs random, because fuck that shit.
I do hate random for that reason too, also because a lot of people who play random are just retards who do stupid shit because, well, look at all the fun we're having.
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EU diamond here. I always ask what race my random opponent is (after I've said "have fun! :D ♥" ) and the vast majority either ignore me, or refuse to tell me their race (eg "im random lol"). It is extremely rare that a random opponent actually replies with his race, and I have NEVER had a random opponent volunteer that information without my prompting.
This is what bugs me. Cheese is understandable (learning 9 matchups is hard afterall), and I have respect for a player who can play all three races at the level I play ONE, but by hiding their race it tells me that they care more about ladder points than trying to be a better player and playing an authentic game.
I don't mind random itself, but I do have a problem with the mentality of what seems to be the majority of people who pick random.
EDIT: though, thinking about it, I expect that the vast majority of ALL players on ladder probably care more about ladder points than trying to be a better player. The only difference is that a random player with this attitude is easy to spot.
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I love the bm @$$ hats who leave if they get wrong race free ladder points for me guess and saves you unnecessary frustration. Bring protoss is nightmare in a match w with a random opponent
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I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing.
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On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing.
While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right? 
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All this whining on TL. I thought this was the Blizzard forum for a sec.
I honestly don't get it. I would say the same thing to people who whine about Terran, Portoss, or Zerg being Imba. If it's so imba why don't you do it then? In this game you don't get to play the way you want, you have to play to the map and the race.
What I think the case is Random is such an rare race, that most people don't have a good build order in a vs Random game. The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player!
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Because random players can't play macro games, it's always stupid cheese.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right?
I have had two or three people telling me their race. None of them lied.
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On February 23 2012 23:56 coL.drewbie wrote:
its lame to play against random. if you are trying to work on a strategy for each matchup and someone plays random then you can't practice your strat you just have to wing it and its annoying. they get an advantage because you have to scout faster, and they are always not as good players, they just do cheese and stupid strategies that abuse how hard it is to scout. personally i just go proxy 11 11 rax every time i play against random and it actually works like 90% of the time because they don't scout and they play super abusive like 14cc or 14 nexus :D
Shouldn't, in your case, TvR also be something to practice? Sure, it is unlikely that you will encounter this in a tournament setting (just like we all match vs. Random in a small minority of our ladder matches), but would you want to be completely lost if you had an important match that mattered versus Random?
I've played a good bit of Zerg and Protoss, not very much Terran, but reading this thread makes me want to try playing as Random on ladder for the variety. The people who want Random removed seem to forget that this is a game, and that the Random option adds some fun to the game. I can understand lobbying against it in tournaments where such a decision would not affect the casual player. Hopefully Random is not forbidden in too many tournaments; the scarcity of even semi-pro Randoms and of Random success in tournaments makes it clear that there's no competitive problem with the race, even at the top level.
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Has anyone tried asking politely what race is the opponent?
Most of the times they will be truthfull.
What I do is, ask and send a scout after 1st depot at wall.
Now if they answered I'll do the opening for the race he said at the wall.
If I find out they lied, I usually prepare for some all-in, if they didn't lie based on the scouting I'll keep going as normal.
If they don't answer at all I prepare for general all-in until I scout they are not.
Surprisingly a grand majority of the non-cheesers and non-early all-in answers fast and truthfully to the question.
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Why do people hate randoms? Because people are idiots simple answer.
I'll never ever understand why people play a STRATEGY game and then complain about the strategy someone chooses. Like their is some effing manual on "how to play Starcraft like a gentleman". I choose my strategy, you choose yours, may the best man win. Your opponent isn't obligating to playing the game how you want him to but yet people still feel that way.
If you think a certain race is imba, or playing random is imba, or cheesing is imba, or some build is imba, (first of all you would be wrong) but second of all you can pick what race you play or how you play. And don't give people the "i have self respect so I won't play (insert imba bias) or cheese" lol that's the stupidest shit ever.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right?
70% of the time the opponent says "yeah right" or "lol", but at least I did my part haha.
I also believe blizz should add an option to randomly pick your race just before the match starts, so you pick random but the race is shown when the game is loading like Random (Zerg), I would use that for sure.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 woody60707 wrote:
The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player!
Please enlighten us protoss and zerg players what build that should be ...
Because it doesn't exist.
I guess it might exist for Terran, but it does not exist for Protoss or Zerg.
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United States7483 Posts
I hate playing against random players, because against each race I want to do a specific build as an opener, but not knowing what race he is pidgeon-holes me into certain openers. Can't forge fast expand against a random player, because if he got terran or toss you lose, but if he's zerg all of the sudden you're not where you wanted to be. All sorts of issues like that.
Picking random is a cheap and dirty way to get an advantage in a game by preventing your opponent by forcing your opponent to use certain builds. How often do you go random zerg and have to deal with a toss who went forge fast expand? How often do you spawn terran to find that the toss walled off and his buildings are super vulnerable?
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In masters NA, I've actually met a decent amount of random players who play quite greedily, which is somewhat surprising seeing how many people will cheese against randoms. About 3 people over my SC2 career have told me their race at the start without being prompted. Still, it changes how your opponent plays against you, and is thus subpar in learning to play the game more effectively. I'd say take a page from Day9, obviously not everyone can afford separate accounts, but use a simple dice between games, 1-2 pick Z, 3-4 pick P, 5-6 pick T and so on. Of course, this removes the "random advantage" but in the long run makes more effective practice.
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I don't like playing vs random because there is a high percentage chance of cheese and as a Protoss player I find it Very annoying having to do gateway builds on maps where a nexus first would be my normal build. Also I find random players to have this feeling that they know more about Starcraft because they play random where 99 percent of the time it is the opposite
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When I play against a random I also scout at 9 drones lol, huge economic loss but I think it kinds of compensate for the fact the random guy would probably macro a little worse than I do. But I play in mid/lower diamond, at higher levels I know that would not work.
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