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On February 24 2012 00:36 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote:
PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
You're never behind going gateway first because you can do so much Artosis on his stream was doing sick things with 3gate expand
Playing 3gate expand in PvZ is way harder and more fragile than playing FFE. It's just not the same economy you get, and Protosses may have not practiced their 1 basing that much against Zerg.
P plays PvRandomZ way less than the Random player plays ZvP (1 / 9), so he basically has no practice 3gate expanding if he usually FFE every game against straight up Zerg (which is reasonable, by the way).
So yeah, as weird as it sounds, PvRZ can really be a free loss for the P (or close to it, like if he was playing an entirely different matchup) who's not used at all to this shit, whereas the Random has full practice with his gimmicky forge-free ZvP. One of the main argument of Random players is that they are not as experienced in playing a standard game, but this is actually reversed in this case. Random Z can comfortably play his standard weird ZvP, but P cannot plays his standard FFE PvZ, and it's silly especially on maps like Shakuras Plateau.
Do we have to account for the possibility of playing Random Zerg in our practice? Probably. Should we have to? Well, that's a useless pain in the ass for most Protoss players...
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On February 24 2012 00:42 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right?  I have had two or three people telling me their race. None of them lied.
I completely understand, and I'm sure you appreciate the honesty, but I hope you can see why someone could potentially lie to gain an advantage. It's as much a mental game as it is anything else  No Random player has ever offered me his race at the start of the game (as expected, considering that's a huge advantage for him to just give away), and so I figure that if I ask him, he could just as easily lie as tell me the truth. Therefore, there's no reason for me to ask.
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Because a large portion of random players go for cheesy strats and it's much harder to hold of vs random player because of your initial advantage of knowing your opponents race but no the other way around.
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Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill.
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On February 24 2012 00:43 TheV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right? 70% of the time the opponent says "yeah right" or "lol", but at least I did my part haha. I also believe blizz should add an option to randomly pick your race just before the match starts, so you pick random but the race is shown when the game is loading like Random (Zerg), I would use that for sure.
You definitely did your part ^^ You don't even need to give away such an advantage lol.
I would love for that alternative to exist... Randoms play Random but the opponent knows what race he's playing against.
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On February 24 2012 00:43 Pro]ChoSen- wrote:
Why do people hate randoms? Because people are idiots simple answer.
I'll never ever understand why people play a STRATEGY game and then complain about the strategy someone chooses. Like their is some effing manual on "how to play Starcraft like a gentleman". I choose my strategy, you choose yours, may the best man win. Your opponent isn't obligating to playing the game how you want him to but yet people still feel that way.
If you think a certain race is imba, or playing random is imba, or cheesing is imba, or some build is imba, (first of all you would be wrong) but second of all you can pick what race you play or how you play. And don't give people the "i have self respect so I won't play (insert imba bias) or cheese" lol that's the stupidest shit ever.
It is imba. You start 1/3 games with a build order win. And i think actually learning the game instead of abuseing the shit out of it shows self respect. if you want to learn all 3 races just change yours from game to game. What is the difference to playing random? you dont get the fucking imba advantage!
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My solution to random players is to allin the shit out of them.
And then they bm me for some reason.
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I hate random players because they are so condescending because they play the whole 3 races. After I beat a random player some of them even say:
"at least I know how to play all three races"
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On February 24 2012 00:45 Penecks wrote:
In masters NA, I've actually met a decent amount of random players who play quite greedily, which is somewhat surprising seeing how many people will cheese against randoms. About 3 people over my SC2 career have told me their race at the start without being prompted. Still, it changes how your opponent plays against you, and is thus subpar in learning to play the game more effectively. I'd say take a page from Day9, obviously not everyone can afford separate accounts, but use a simple dice between games, 1-2 pick Z, 3-4 pick P, 5-6 pick T and so on. Of course, this removes the "random advantage" but in the long run makes more effective practice.
Or even better, as people proposed, let's pressure blizzard to add ability to let the game decide but display the chosen race on the loading screen.
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Generally, when playing random, wether your as good as others, or not, you rely a lot on luck and other random factors.
When a player faces a random player, he is forced to make a more general build, not one that works vs 1 specifics race.
So you have a far easier time being random, because you get these unintentional advantages, over others. I've met some random players who tell the race they get in the opening, but it's hard for other peoples to believe in this.
But generally I don't like random players either, and I think why the rest thinks so as well, is due to these advantages they get, but not sure.
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I usually play random except when I'm trying to work on a specific matchup, because for me the game simply gets old and boring if I play with the same race all of the time. After 2 or 3 games of protoss, I'm ready to play as zerg or terran. But then I always get the bm from other players for being random. And I've noticed something really funny when I play random; people assume you are going to cheese or all in, no matter what. You can early expand and take 3 bases and get all upgraded and everything, and all the while the other player is still sitting at their one base building defense in order to defend the impending all-in that never is gonna get there. They fail to scout because they're positive that you will cheese them. And this happens with diamond/master's players. I can't get over how much you can get in someone's head just by your race selection, it's hilarious. What they don't realize is, I love my long games. I hugely prefer for a game to go to the 20 minute mark. But people have stereotyped random players to the point that very rarely do I get a real game out of it.
So I guess I have an option - I can either do as some suggest, and "roll a die" to select my race before each game, or I can continue playing random. The truth is, that just depends on the day - whether I'm being serious and competitive or if I just want to have fun. Because I've found that you can do almost anything and get away with it as a random player, that's honestly the most fun you can have in sc2. But it's true that it's not as competitive.
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On February 24 2012 00:48 StarBrift wrote:
Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill.
I would guess that if we actually did some poll every other race would be more disliked than random
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I just started playing random and I didnt even know it until a couple of days ago that all 3 of my races or almost on the same level. Im in diamond league and I can beat diamond players with all 3 races. The kicker is, I dont cheese. I dont even know how to cheese. I mean, I can 4 gate but I dont because its bad.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 woody60707 wrote:
All this whining on TL. I thought this was the Blizzard forum for a sec.
I honestly don't get it. I would say the same thing to people who whine about Terran, Portoss, or Zerg being Imba. If it's so imba why don't you do it then? In this game you don't get to play the way you want, you have to play to the map and the race.
What I think the case is Random is such an rare race, that most people don't have a good build order in a vs Random game. The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player!
EDIT: What is all this talk about playing a authentic game/standard game. Everything to a 6 drone rush to a late Mothership game is an authentic game. And I dislike this talk/idea of a "standard game". If it's a stupid idea but it works, it's not a stupid idea. I really do miss the days of BGH 5mins no rush -not
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Austria24422 Posts
PvR is indeed retarded. Try playing against random on tal'darim especially. Against zerg you have to ffe on that map, there's just no other way to play that without falling super behind. Against terran, you're ok on one base in the beginning and against protoss you die if you expand early on that map.
You also have to wall off. So basically you gamble with your first pylon already. If you put it in your natural setting up for a ffe and he spawns as protoss, you're dead. If you get lucky and scout a terran opponent without a delay, you might be able to pull off a nexus first (which is risky because if close spawns -> shorter rush distance). If you don't, you have to continue your ffe attempt (building the forge). If you now scout that he's terran, you're super vulnerable. You have to go nexus first or put your gateway in a damn awkward spot in your natural.
Now if you put your pylon in your main, close to your entrance and he's terran, you're fine but vulnerable. If he's zerg, you're behind economically (talking about tal'darim here, 3 gate expand is pretty damn useless on this map because you will definitely be behind). Against toss you're at least not dead but vulnerable as well.
I can see the same happening on any map that's designed like taldarim. That's why I personally dislike playing against random. Also I ONLY get vR on taldarim so that's why I'm biased here. I feel like random players can get a super easy free win on that map if they only understand how hard I actually have to gamble / sacrifice things in order to survive at all.
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i know that when i played around with random for a bit people were more upset about the fact that me choosing random automatically put them at a disadvantage. I do think that picking random should just show the race at the start of the game or even the loading screen.
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whenever I get beat by a random I give big props. I seriously respect random players.
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- you can't refine your regular builds against random (which makes it a waste of time IMO since for most people ladder is all about refining your builds)
- there's a high chance you get a build order loss vs. random
- a lot of random players rely on the fact that they're random and do cheesy/greedy builds instead of relying on skill
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On February 24 2012 00:54 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:48 StarBrift wrote:
Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill. I would guess that if we actually did some poll every other race would be more disliked than random
Lol it depends, maybe Terrans will say that they dislike vP more than vR (statistically of course, because they can get vRP, which is even worse for them :D), but as Protoss, I can tell you, playing vs Random is definitely the worse for most of us.
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On February 23 2012 23:53 fire_brand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:40 chestnutcc wrote:
Basically what other people have said in the thread:
1. PvR when R turns out to be zerg is a bad spot for P. You can't FFE unless you send out a really early scout (pre pylon). If you gate expand, it has to be 3 gate because they will most likely try cheesing you. 10 pools are a nightmare with gate expands. If they don't cheese you they go hatch first and power up while you are still waiting for obs/phoenix/hallucination to confirm what they are doing because random players, are well, random.
2. Forces pylon scout at least, bad for other builds.
3. PvP is arbitrary enough without random players doing their thing.
4. PvT is unpredictable enough without random players doing their thing
There is a definite difference between offracing and playing random and imo offracers understand their offrace a lot better than random players understand that particular race. I disagree with this entirely. I've spawned P in RvR while my opponent has spawned Z. There is nothing wrong with 3GE, 2GE or even 1GE and nothing wrong with pylon scouting either. If he 10 pools against any of those builds you should be safe at home, and he'll have already taken a huge economic hit. Pvp you're going to be pylon scouting anyways unless you want to lose. I think PvT is fairly NOT random. It's incredibly standard, with set timings and builds and should be as easy to play at out as PvR(T) as PvT. I think most of this is just lazy people who don't wanna scout and just want the game wrapped up in a neat little package. I think the unpredictability of a vR matchup is exciting and will make you a better, more adaptable player. If you really don't want to play it out because apparently you're so far behind and you're going to lose anyway just leave. I don't when sc2 players got so spoiled.
Not sure whether you're a random player or a toss player, so will assume you're random because everything you say points to that.
1 gate fe auto loses to mass rallied lings. 3 gate expo sets you far behind hatch first or any greedy play. Nobody does a 2 gate expand. Eco 10 pool will win against 1 gate and will severely delay 3 gate expo. The point is that I would like to do FFE vs zerg, but the mere act of choosing random forces me down a build path due to no action on the part of the opponent.
There is no need to actually pylon scout in PvP. The only thing you want to look for is proxy gate and by adjusting your build order and scout pattern you can prepare for this too.
PvT with 1 base play is v arbitrary from the terran side. There is nothing lazy about delayed scouts, its a calculated move to take an economic edge.
The adaptability you learn in a PvR is nothing greater than oh hes going proxy double starport and making a stargate, whereas against a good solid terran, it will be more along the lines of oh, he double dropped me and stimmed into my third, I've never really dealt with this before, let me learn how to deal with it i.e. the adaptability in PvR is mostly of the hard counter variety: they will do some weird thing, you just do the hard counter, whereas in an actual match up it is variations of standard play that you may be aware of, but weak against, that you have to adapt to.
Time on the ladder is a precious resource. I have no issue with standard cheeses or all ins, these are necessary to practice against. Against randoms, you don't really know which one to expect.
For example, a forge is the strongest defense against early pools. This comes automatically with the FFE, but a random's early pool just becomes stronger because I cannot FFE. This is in no part due to their skill or execution, but merely due to the fact that I had to choose a different build to account for the random. I learn nothing from this as regards defending early pools with the FFE against main racing zergs, which is the situation one normally faces an early pool.
In PvP, again, the early scout may slow down my early pressure by a zealot or a stalker, and let him defend some greedy tech play. Not the situation in a standard PvP with a delayed scout. It may not sound like a big deal, but PvPs can be won and lost by 1-2 probes.
In PvT, the chance of the random going bio is slim. I have actually only faced 1 random who told me his race and played standard bio, and did it v well. This however, may be the only time PvR with R as terran is beneficial since it will likely be a 1/1/1 variant and those things are weird enough that you need all the practice you can.
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EPT
