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On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote:
Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind."
Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place. Of course people can still be generally intelligent people and just be unintelligent regarding this issue, but the only knowledge I have of these people comes from the context of this one specific discussion which, if they deny Random imbalance, is a clear display of lacking intelligence concerning the issue and I'm not about to go assuming that they are otherwise perfectly intelligent individuals.
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I really agree with SnareSpectre here. I'm shocked at all the people here who think a Random player is obligated to reveal their race at the start of the match. To me, that's the same as revealing one's spawn location. It won't take you long to figure it out. It feels like Protoss players are overstating it if they complain that they get an automatic BO loss before they can scout their R opponent's race, but I might be wrong -- I'm downright awful with Protoss and I only 6pool against my friends.
I played Terran (badly) in the first two seasons, took a break for a while, and came back playing Random because I prefer the variety of different playstyles and options available to me. And as long as I'm going to be rusty, I may as well try to learn the other two races. I figure, there's a lot more understanding of the game available out there if I'm willing to expand out of my comfort zone.
Just don't expect me to reveal my race.
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If you're having this sort of discussion, you can't cite a player's ability to play multiple races as an argument point, it's too much of a variable. That would be like saying Mutas counter Phoenix because my opponents have bad micro. While it may be true, a non-subjective discussion can't be based off assumptions like that.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved 
BUT I WANT MY PORTRAITS LOL
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On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote:
Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place.
or, you are wrong.
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Imagine you are playing as Protoss and you get matched up against a Random on Tal' Darim. Where are you going to build your first pylon?
Imagine if you scout it last and you face a Protoss so it's PvP instead of PvZ.
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On February 24 2012 05:59 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote:
For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Doesn't change the fact that randoms need to put in more time to be at the same level though. It seems pretty hard for some people to grasp that they're playing people who put in more time to get to the same level and now get some benefits out of that extra time which would probably have been greater if they practiced one race.
This argument has been rehashed over and over. I still don't understand though why putting more time into practicing should give you some artificial advantage. Shouldn't the benefit of practicing more be that you are better than your opponent hence more likely to win? Instead you're saying that practicing more should directly lead to more wins instead of increasing your skill and thereby make you more likely to win. To put it another way: as a random player you practice all nine matchups and hence you will not be as good at ZvP as if you were playing Z exclusively. Then you say you should get some advantage ingame because you also happened to have practiced your TvT (which has very little to do with ZvP).
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I've been playing random lately, mainly started playing other races to learn how to play against them. I (nearly) never cheese, all-in or do any one-base play, unless my opponent is too greedy and I scout it, then I have to. Other than that, my games are nearly always at least 20 minutes (in game). I still seem to get gg's less than half the time, but not much Random BM.
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On February 24 2012 06:07 .kv wrote:
Imagine you are playing as Protoss and you get matched up against a Random on Tal' Darim. Where are you going to build your first pylon?
Imagine if you scout it last and you face a Protoss so it's PvP instead of PvZ.
Exactly.
People who don't see the problem with this don't play Starcraft.
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On February 24 2012 06:06 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote:
Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place. or, you are wrong.
Yep, I could very well be wrong. But if you actually think that I am wrong then you actually need to present an argument that gives a decent answer as to why I'm wrong because every single argument I've seen to date in favor of Random being balanced treads into the region of logical fallicies.
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On February 24 2012 06:04 mDuo13 wrote:
I really agree with SnareSpectre here. I'm shocked at all the people here who think a Random player is obligated to reveal their race at the start of the match. To me, that's the same as revealing one's spawn location. It won't take you long to figure it out. It feels like Protoss players are overstating it if they complain that they get an automatic BO loss before they can scout their R opponent's race, but I might be wrong -- I'm downright awful with Protoss and I only 6pool against my friends.
I played Terran (badly) in the first two seasons, took a break for a while, and came back playing Random because I prefer the variety of different playstyles and options available to me. And as long as I'm going to be rusty, I may as well try to learn the other two races. I figure, there's a lot more understanding of the game available out there if I'm willing to expand out of my comfort zone.
Just don't expect me to reveal my race.
Why wouldn't you reveal your race? Because you need your opponent to be in the dark and use a suboptimal opening for you to win? Seriously, how can one possibly justify not revealing their race? Aren't you playing the game to get better, don't you prefer to know that you beat someone playing their best?
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On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote:
Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place.
Or you're wrong and yet condescending.
You can pick random to equalize the advantage. You don't, instead you choose one race to have an easier time, learning less stuff. Now random players have an advantage. You gave up that advantage for another advantage. One is out of game, one is in game. If you weigh one more heavily you may make your choice. If it's just about playing the race you like, that's not an argument which determines balance.
I don't like to play low two-pair poker. I can just never enter a pot with it but that's not really the fault of the game, eh?
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A siginifcant part of the random players in lower league are people trying to farm the portraits.
The fastest way to do so is playing random in a lower league and then worker rush or some cheese
Think this is one reason random players might have a bad name.
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On February 24 2012 06:07 Legatus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:59 Timerly wrote:On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote:
For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Doesn't change the fact that randoms need to put in more time to be at the same level though. It seems pretty hard for some people to grasp that they're playing people who put in more time to get to the same level and now get some benefits out of that extra time which would probably have been greater if they practiced one race. This argument has been rehashed over and over. I still don't understand though why putting more time into practicing should give you some artificial advantage. Shouldn't the benefit of practicing more be that you are better than your opponent hence more likely to win? Instead you're saying that practicing more should directly lead to more wins instead of increasing your skill and thereby make you more likely to win. To put it another way: as a random player you practice all nine matchups and hence you will not be as good at ZvP as if you were playing Z exclusively. Then you say you should get some advantage ingame because you also happened to have practiced your TvT (which has very little to do with ZvP).
Controlling all three races well is an increase of skill, it's just not apparent at the point of view inside a single game.
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Canada9720 Posts
This is one of those perennial topics that we've sort of discussed to death. Sorry
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EPT
