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Hi TL community ! This is my first topic, i hope u gonna be kind with me.
I play Random, because I just like Z, P and T and i have fun by playing them. I believe that i can be a "good" player with each race. I'm actually top20 diamond EU serv ~~ My goal is to be in Master League.
1 / 5 games, my opponent just leave the game with some BM like "Fucking random noob" "no skill cheeser" "i dont want to waste my time" etc
WTF guys ? I know, a lot of rdm players gos some unusual strat, but .... why?? ;-(
edit : sorry for my english :s
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My guess is because most random players, especially in lower leagues, don't play any one race particularly better than the other. So a lot of them settle for one-base all-ins and cheese. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience, random players are much more likely to do one-base plays instead of actually playing a macro game.
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As a former random player, trust me - people will bm/rage no matter what league you are. Funny enough, when I played random, I also got bm/hate for every possible race that popped up even though I was random.
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The problem it's that most of randoms cheeses. I also have negative opinion about them, because they tend not to play long games.
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They are jealous because they can only play with one race. I'd take it as a compliment.
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It's the internet. People BM. If you played another race, ppl would be saying "fucking Z/P/T". Having said that, random gives you an initial advantage and people cannot go for their favourite builds or w/e. If you wanna dodge that, just roll a die before each map and pick a race accordingly.
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When people choose random, their opponent assumes that they're going to cheese.
I guess that's it, haha!
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I don't hate random players and never bm them for playing random. I think it's great if you can play all races equally well. I do however expect some really weird cheese everytime i face a random player. My personal experience tells me that a lot of people in the lower leagues try to use the little timing where the opponent doesn't know your race to do some really stupid cheese. If I had more time to play so I could be good enough with more than one race and I didn't despise Zerg, I probably would play random myself
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I think that a lot of players in the lower leagues are one-build-wonders, who have a single build for each enemy race and just execute that every time. When they encounter a random player, this logic suddenly breaks down and they have to improvise. Especially since random players often have weird builds / compositions in the lower leagues.
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you have to open differently against the different races, so its kinda disgusting when you dont know what race you are playing against. if you choose the wrong opening, you play from behind and thats just because you dont know the opponents race. Additionaly many random players play just for fun and not so much focused on improvement so they cheese a lot and that can be quite frustrating. thats prolly why you get flamed so often. if you just want to play all of the 3 races you can tell your opponent what race you have. if he believes you or not is his own thing.
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On February 23 2012 22:49 Superouman wrote: They are jealous because they can only play with one race. I'd take it as a compliment.
Not very impressive when you are just very mediocre at all races instead of actually good with one, which is the case with most randoms.
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Let them rage, being Random is a strength. It's not you that should deal with it, but your opponents!
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95% of people who play random will cheese you. Rather than learning how to actually play the game, they try to take advantage of the surprise factor combined with a cheese strategy that take 10 minutes to learn to execute. There are some good random players, but a large majority are no skill cheesers.
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It's because most random players can't macro properly on all 3 races so they always cheese. I have about 1000 games played, and never once have I found a random player that played standard.
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PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
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Why don't you learn how to type english properly before posting?
You could at least put "people" instead of "ppl" in the title.
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On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious !
Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ...
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I don't mind randoms at all, it means I will most likely win because they don't know how to play properly, or at least not at the late game stage.
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Italy12246 Posts
Because random doesn't show the race at start. As a protoss player, that's annoying as hell.
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Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved
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The rage against random players comes because out of the last 100 random players I played about 150 of them cheesed and executed no-skill builds.
In fact ever since I played this game (release) I have only twice played against random players that actually played a proper build. (Platinum League, btw)
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On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled
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I don't want to waste my time - would rather just practice builds against the other races.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved  Exactly this^
It's really frustrating for people in lower leagues to play against random players because they are still trying to get their builds sorted out and when they have no idea what race someone is playing it messes them up.
Also there is the fact that a lot of random players do cheese.
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United States97276 Posts
On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled gumiho is the only player to qualify for a GSL as random. He now race picks Terran and is in the code s ro4. Guineapig only played in the team league as random. He qualified in open season 2 or 3 as a protoss
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I don't think that random players are hated more than other players, but I personally don't understand why you would play random instead of picking a race. If you don't know which race you want to pick, then roll a dice or something like that.
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On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled OMG THANKS  TL dont like random players too, u can't choose it in settings profile :D
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My personal problem with Random was that I am a Protoss player. Having a 33% chance to lose the game out of the start is pretty awful.
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The reason it's annoying for me is because I can't tailor my opening and scouting towards a specific race. I can't scout around my main for potential proxy 10/10 without pulling more probes than necessary because I might not be up against a Protoss. If I'm up against a Zerg and a sixpool is on the way, I might not scout it in time because I wasted time and potential mining time scouting for something I couldn't actually be up against.
If I'm up against a Terran or a Protoss and I scout on 9, I'm suddenly slightly behind. Not a lot, but I'm still behind. If it's on a forge-expand map like Tal'darim and I meet a Zerg, I'm a little bit behind as well. Especially if the Zerg gets a 15 hatch down because I scouted him last.
And then there is the coin flip where he may or may not be cheesing you.
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use the word "dislike" instead of "hate". Much much better imo.
I never disliked a random player! People can play whatever they like!
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On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled
Actually Gumiho is the only player ever to have been in GSL playing random. As we all know he is terran now though
GuineaPig was protoss when he was in gsl, but seems to play random now.
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On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled Both GuineaPig and Gumiho have a history as random players.
Gumiho was the one that actually once qualified for GSL (Open Season 3) while playing random.
GuineaPig has only been random in the GSTL or possibly also during the Code A qualifiers. All the seasons that he did qualify for Open GSL or Code A he was playing Protoss.
The only other GSL Person I know that has race switched is Zenex.Byun / Byun.Prime / GhostKing.Prime. He switched from Protoss to Terran.
On February 23 2012 23:02 Utopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled Actually Gumiho is the only player ever to have been in GSL playing random. As we all know he is terran now though  You're lame, and fast. :p
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Man, it's quite obvious, last random players I've hit on ladder allinned me like crazy. I don't understand the BM attitude though... Don't mind those people, they are just frustrated.
Play how you like and enjoy the game.
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Random players tend to either cheese, or do something extremely greedy, like a CC first pretty much every game, and because you don't know what race he's playing, you have to go for a build that's ok vs everything, like vs terran I want to 15 hatch, but vs random there is absolutely no way I'm going to 15 hatch, so I'll speedling expand instead, which puts me even further behind economically
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I don't hate players who play random but I just don't like the fact that I don't know which build order to prepare for and it forces me to go generic build that satisfies all matchups. Also, in maps like Taldarim or other 4 player maps, it's such a pain in the ass
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In my experience I get always cheesed by random players, the 1 in a 100 time I come across one that tries to play macro games I respect that, but, random players seem to be just scrubs trying to get zerg so they can 6 pool you and you have no idea its coming. This is in gold through to diamond as I have found, but I respect the OP for playing macro, thats a lot of match-ups you need to learn
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I don't BM Random players (it takes a lot of skill to learn all of the races and matchups), but I often just 6 pool to get it over with. I'd rather practice my ZvX as a normal game. For example, if I drone scout to find out his race and he's Z, I'll be behind from the start. So for me personally, playing vs Random is an actual waste of the time I take to practice. I do not mean this as any form of offence to Random players, everyone is free to enjoy playing the game the way they like. =)
I think perhaps Day9 had a good idea when he said he just rolls a dice and picks his race before searching for a game though. I'd suspect a lot of Random players do not get to play as many standard games because people expect cheese.
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The reason why I hate playing randoms is because the game is never standard. You have to open differently vs Random players so Random players don't play any match up as they should be played. For example, For T(R)vZ the zerg has to open pool before hatch no matter what, which puts us behind if the terran opens an economical build.
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Well I do occasionally play random but I believe that random players that can play well deserve great respect - knowing how to play three races requires much much more skill than just one! Having to put so much extra effort into the game, the early game advantage is something that should be overlooked imho.
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Some people see playing random as offering an unfair advantage at the start of the game. Which is completely understandable.
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I do bm from time to time when I take a day and really focus on improving, not knowing what matchup you play at the beginning pretty much makes the time you spent on it kinda wasted. Though at the end of the day the only one to blame for the option is blizzard, I just wish they'd disable random in masters or maybe already on diamond level as there are cases where not knowing your opponnents race can put you behind from the start, which is a lot more important in higher leagues.
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No Problem with Random, as long as players announce their race after I ask them politely.
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i dont hate random players i just dislike the fact that if he rolls zerg i am pretty much doomed cause i didnt FFE
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On February 23 2012 23:05 Nekratos wrote: Well I do occasionally play random but I believe that random players that can play well deserve great respect - knowing how to play three races requires much much more skill than just one! Having to put so much extra effort into the game, the early game advantage is something that should be overlooked imho. The problem is that when all you do when getting random is 11/11 rax, proxy 9/9 gate and 6pool then you still have only 3 matchups to learn: Terran Cheese, Protoss Cheese and Zerg Cheese.
The vast majority of random games never gets to any real macro stage where knowledge of the actual matchup is even remotely relevant. Having said that though Random players that aren't no skill cheeser do deserve respect.
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For the fact that Random get an advantage Vs P for example, i think it's normal. Choose Random is a coinflip When i'm VS Protoss and i am Protoss, i use this advantage by making a 4G, because my opponent would block his ramp, EZ pylon + Gate And 80% of the time, yes, i CC/Hatch/Nexus first. It's hard to be a decent players in each matchups, so we need a little advantage !! Foe example i'm sooo bad in TvZ .. it scares me :d
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I think in general, random players tend to do more cheeses because they won't have the same amount of practice with one spesific race (the one they end up playing in game) as a player who only practices for one race.
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suprised at the reactions on here. i played random for a few seasons just so i could understand each race better. i never really got a lot of BM, maybe it's because i didn't really cheese
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On February 23 2012 23:10 JonnyClark wrote: suprised at the reactions on here. i played random for a few seasons just so i could understand each race better. i never really got a lot of BM, maybe it's because i didn't really cheese I can tell you that that is the reason. If all you'd have done though would be either 11/11Rax 6 pool or 9/9 Proxy gate then you would have been getting death/rape threats every single game.
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On February 23 2012 23:08 Full.tilt wrote: Some people see playing random as offering an unfair advantage at the start of the game. Which is completely understandable. Well, the random player gets an advantage at the start but then he's probably disadvantaged as the game moves since it's unlikely he'll be as skilled as the opponent with all three races.
I mean, random is an option the game gives you. Just use it to your advantage. Now, if random was giving an unfair advantage, I'm sure we'd see pro random, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
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On February 23 2012 23:10 JonnyClark wrote: suprised at the reactions on here. i played random for a few seasons just so i could understand each race better. i never really got a lot of BM, maybe it's because i didn't really cheese I play random now for about 2 1/2 seasons and there were quite some funny stories. My favorite: Game begins. Me:"Good luck and have fun buddy" <instert name> has left the game.
edit: he started mining+splitting his workers :D
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when i played random to unlock the 500 random win portrait (mutalisk) i cheesed almost every game. When i met another random player, they cheese almost every game.
people dont like cheesing, people flame random players
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I really don't understand why the random player is hidden.
When You play against a random player, it should not show random in the loading but the race you will be playing in the game so the game start with both player on the same level.
Random is not a race, it's the randomnisation of the race you play.
To be fair, another solution would be that the Random player dosent see your race when the game is loading, but that would be ridiculous...
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Random is inconvenient for the opponent, so instead of using their brain to play, they decide to whine. Lots of randoms "cheese", so what? So do lots of zergs and lots of terrans and lots of protosses. And even if randoms do "cheese" more often, why aren't you embracing practice vs cheese? Whiners will always whine, and if they have nothing to whine about they'll just make it up.
Whatever advantage a random player has in the first 40 seconds of the game is lost several-fold in the next minutes because of lack of practice in that particular MU. Play the game or quit if you don't like it.
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On February 23 2012 23:12 bouhko wrote: [...] I'm sure we'd see pro random, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Because a lot of tournaments don't accept it !
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On February 23 2012 23:13 ScaryOlive wrote: I really don't understand why the random player is hidden.
When You play against a random player, it should not show random in the loading but the race you will be playing in the game so the game start with both player on the same level.
Random is not a race, it's the randomnisation of the race you play.
To be fair, another solution would be that the Random player dosent see your race when the game is loading, but that would be ridiculous... I would actually like that more then the current situation. The ideal situation would be however to see "Random: Zerg. He will 6pool you." in 99.99% of the cases that would be correct and I can just start with my Forge first.
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the problem with most random players is that they can't actually play any of the races properly so they cheese and because they are random it is harder to prepare for it (6 pool or 2 rax or proxy gates)
i don't like random players who play like that either tbh and if i meet a random player who plays straight up i usually win because they are almost never as good with their race as i am with mine
i used to play random as well since i had played all 3 races (250 wins with each) but i really hated the way random feels because you can never decied what strategy you will play before a game so i eventually settled on zerg and now i hate my decision because i always lose to toss xD
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On February 23 2012 23:14 VelJa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 bouhko wrote: [...] I'm sure we'd see pro random, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Because a lot of tournaments don't accept it ! Can you name a single one? (with a link to the rules)
I do know that some tournaments at the time didn't allow racepicking but that also seems to have faded away.
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This should be the last thing random players should worry about. They have to use their skill and play 3 different races and i truly commend people who play random. Wasting time and thought on "wow this guy bmed me" is just a wasted effort. Let them be, and take their ladder points.
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On February 23 2012 23:13 ScaryOlive wrote: I really don't understand why the random player is hidden.
When You play against a random player, it should not show random in the loading but the race you will be playing in the game so the game start with both player on the same level.
Random is not a race, it's the randomnisation of the race you play.
To be fair, another solution would be that the Random player dosent see your race when the game is loading, but that would be ridiculous... Why is that? People try to equal things out by saying the random player has an advantage because the enemy needs to scout. But on the other hand you ppl ignore the fact that the player needs to play every race somewhat decent. And I'm not talking about randoming in <gold league. You argue they don't start on the same level with the hidden race thingy? I argue that they won't when you would show the race.
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On February 23 2012 23:15 sVnteen wrote: the problem with most random players is that they can't actually play any of the races properly so they cheese and because they are random it is harder to prepare for it (6 pool or 2 rax or proxy gates) This is so funny ... you talk about what leagues?
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yeah, i couldnt think of a single tournament which forbidds random.
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On February 23 2012 23:14 VelJa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 bouhko wrote: [...] I'm sure we'd see pro random, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Because a lot of tournaments don't accept it !
are you serious? Thats bullshit
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From personal experience, the higher you get in the leagues, the less random the random player is. A random player who's still in bronze will not just be crap with one race but with three. If said player gets to silver/gold/plat he won't have the large skillset that players have that are playing one race and will most often be revolving around 1/2-base plays exclusively. The fact that you get "no skill cheeser"-comments is probably because you.... cheese? I don't know what league you are in but if people actually just leave the game because they see that they are facing a random player I guess you're still in the lower leagues so just accept the free wins I guess
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Random is dumb because you don't know what race you're up against and as such can't do a race specific build until you scout them.
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Well 90% of the games taht ive played vs a rando mplayer he cheesed or did some extremely stupid strat that had no meaning.No1 likes to be cheesed so i think u get the point.
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Drewbie always says it's BM to play random and therefore will always cheese a random player on ladder haha. Always makes me laugh.
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On February 23 2012 23:17 Zeon0 wrote: yeah, i couldnt think of a single tournament which forbidds random. I'm pretty sure that you are not allowed to choose random but rather have to choose one before the start of the game and then use that for the remainder of the series. Opponent not knowing what race you play but you know his will just give ju an extreme advantage.
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Most random players cheese or play random to play some gimmicky strat and take advantage of that they are infact random.
But if you are a player that roll random because you do infact enjoy playing all races or you just can't settle with one race - please tell your opponent what race you spawned instead of being the ^ douche.
Or just pick a race between each matches and rotate them.
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ok guys i'm wrong sorry :S
(But i think you have to choose a race before the game, or something like that)
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no, in most tournaments you have to choose t/z/p or random at the begin of the tournament and then you cant change the race till you're done
for example the gsl handles it this way (with the exception of morrow)
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On February 23 2012 23:14 VelJa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 bouhko wrote: [...] I'm sure we'd see pro random, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Because a lot of tournaments don't accept it ! Well the GSL does allow random since Gumiho qualified as random (GSL 3). So give us link to other tournaments.
No, I think the reason we don't see pro random is not because it's forbidden, but because this would require being pro-level with all 3 races, which seems pretty hard.
I think most people are pissed at random players because they have to play safe and cannot fast expo 2 times and go super-greedy builds.
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My problem with random is that they get an advatage for picking a race/option and if played correctly some all in can't be held because of forced build order disadvantages.
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On February 23 2012 23:02 Utopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:57 Roynalf wrote:On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:On February 23 2012 22:49 Lorizean wrote: It's the internet. People BM.. Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ... guineapig or what ever its spelled Actually Gumiho is the only player ever to have been in GSL playing random. As we all know he is terran now though  GuineaPig was protoss when he was in gsl, but seems to play random now.
GuineaPig also played terran for a while. At least Liquidipedia states this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuineaPig
Playing random on a professional level is total baller. I will forever love Gumiho, GuineaPig and TLO for trying.
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On February 23 2012 23:19 Xcobidoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:17 Zeon0 wrote: yeah, i couldnt think of a single tournament which forbidds random. I'm pretty sure that you are not allowed to choose random but rather have to choose one before the start of the game and then use that for the remainder of the series. Opponent not knowing what race you play but you know his will just give ju an extreme advantage. As said before: link to the rules of a single tournament. Just one will do.
I know that MLG's rule is not that you can't Random but is to make sure they don't have an ever-looping thing when you have to Race Pickers against eachother. For example MorroW plays (ZvT ZvP TvZ); what would happen if he would play against somebody that would play (TvT TvP ZvZ)? You'd have an endless amount of bullshit which is why MLG states that in such cases you have to blindly submit your race to the referee.
On February 23 2012 23:20 VelJa wrote: ok guys i'm wrong sorry :S
(But i think you have to choose a race before the game, or something like that) That is indeed to prevent these ever looping situations.
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If they cheese you and you lose then why not thank them? If you analyze the replay you really shouldn't ever lose to that same cheese again, the more you get cheesed the more cheese proof you get. Cheesing is part of the game as well so you need to be able to hold it off. If you win then you win and there's really nothing to complain about. I've never understood why people bm and rage because of a damn game in the first place. If they are bm then don't answer them just block them and move on, don't let them bring you down to their level. It's their problem that they can't control their temper, if you just keep having fun then you're a winner in my book no matter how to game ends.
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PvR on TDA is borderline broken - I need to either prepare for 4gate, FFE or it doesn't matter that much against T. The random player gets a huge advantage.
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GSL allows random players. The problem is not only that you dont know the other race at the start and this will fuck your opening, but also because people don't play a the same level with all the races. So if you have Master Terran and Silver protoss, will be around gold/plat, and then we will never play at the same level
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So here's a question to you random players. If you're playing random on the ladder, and you face another random player, what type of opening build order would you do with each race?
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On February 23 2012 23:14 Doctorasul wrote: Random is inconvenient for the opponent, so instead of using their brain to play, they decide to whine. Lots of randoms "cheese", so what? So do lots of zergs and lots of terrans and lots of protosses. And even if randoms do "cheese" more often, why aren't you embracing practice vs cheese? Whiners will always whine, and if they have nothing to whine about they'll just make it up.
Whatever advantage a random player has in the first 40 seconds of the game is lost several-fold in the next minutes because of lack of practice in that particular MU. Play the game or quit if you don't like it.
Ding ding ding!
This guy nailed it. I get so much grief (I've played Random since release, have 1k portrait and am still picking Random because I like the variety). Not only for being a cheeser because I'm Random (even when I don't cheese), but also for the race I happen to draw. They'll complain about Protoss, I'll explain to them that I picked Random, but they don't seem to care.
Do I cheese? Sometimes. I like to think it's not any more often than most ladder warriors who pick a race. It's good to know some of those builds. I refuse to do builds, however, that are based solely on my opponents not knowing what race I am at the start (i.e. 6 pool, cannon, proxy). But I sure as shit will throw in some 2-port Banshee, blue-flame drops, DTs, etc. if I'm frustrated in a particular matchup or the guy has already griefed me about playing Random.
I also always tell my opponent my race if they ask. If they don't, I assume they don't care and proceed about my business. Late-game, I really only feel at a disadvantage in TvZ against players of equal skill because I haven't gotten enough practice and my multi-tasking isn't as high as it needs to be for a low-Master Terran. Every other matchup I can go toe-to-toe in the late-game with people at a similar level.
In the end, all I want is your ladder points, nomnomnom. Sometimes it will be through a 1/2-base all-in, but for the most part I prefer macro games.
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On February 23 2012 23:24 kenkou wrote: So here's a question to you random players. If you're playing random on the ladder, and you face another random player, what type of opening build order would you do with each race? I would expect 6 Pool, Proxy 9/9 Gate or 11/11 Barracks; only to then see that your opponent has done the identical thing. :D
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random players by and large cheese, you all disgust me tbh
User was temp banned for this post.
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At diamond level at least, the vast, vast majority of random players cheese every game. This can be enraging because being random imparts an unfair advantage upon you until your opponent determines your race, which makes random cheese imbalanced and particularly difficult to hold off in most spawn positions on most maps.
I personally have a high diamond random friend who does not cheese and is actually very good at macro games with all three races. It's not impossible, but it takes a lot more dedication. But that's one random player who's not cheesed me out of nearly all the random's I've ever played. It gets frustrating before long.
As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.)
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I think it sucks the most for Protoss when they have to play vs. a random player, they can't FFE because there is a 66% chance it's a terran or protoss, but other openings are alot worse vs. Zerg in my opinion. The zerg can always 15 hatch against you as a protoss because you shouldn't be FFE'ing. I'd probably rage at random players alot if I played protoss, it's inconvenient as terran, but as protoss it has to be an actual nightmare.
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Because as a protoss, I'd 1gate fast expand vs terran, forge/FE or make a wall vs zerg, and late scout pvp with buildings close to nexus / early scout if it's a proxy map and check for those. Playing randoms is a waste of time so I find it to be best to just leave. No, I don't want to play vs zerg without a wall or a FFE, I don't want to face a korean 4gate with 13core or a cannon rush with a wall-in, and being on 3gate vs 1rax gasless CC is also not fun.
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I don't hate random players. I love you cheesy noobs, because its free win most of the time
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It's because you have to open safe vs random.
For example--a toss would prefer to forge FE vs Zerg, but vs a zerg who went random a Protoss has to open 1base defensive or 4gate rush in case of pvp.
It just messes up the sense of optimization as feels like *another* random variable to deal with.
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Because Random is annoying as hell. You have different builds for different races, so you're forced to use a suboptimal build against a random opponent... really sucks to do a 14g/14p and find out you're playing a terran.
Seriously, to all random players: Use a dice. If 1-2, play T, if 3-4 play P, if 5-6 play Z. That way, you get to play random race, yet you're not forcing your opponent to play badly. The only reason a random player would play random and not say their race, is because they are afraid of opponents being able to play the way they want.
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Playing vs Random is a pain simply because it forces me to build that first pylon at the ramp rather than next to the nex or at the nat for a FFE. I would never BM someone for playing random though lol, thats retarded. If anything I have more respect for a good random player, for obvious reasons.
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On February 23 2012 23:24 kenkou wrote: So here's a question to you random players. If you're playing random on the ladder, and you face another random player, what type of opening build order would you do with each race?
Even though I am not a "random no-skill cheeser" I must admit that the stereotype has some merit, and that's why I'll 9 Drone scout, Pylon scout, and Depot scout. I put the Pylon/Gate near my Nexus, because that's standard against Terran/Protoss, but make my gate on 11 or 12 in case it's a fast pool Zerg and hope my micro doesn't fail me. If it is Zerg, I have to get creative in order to not fall behind in the mid-game against a relatively fast expo, but it usually involves some form of Stalker pressure into Stargate play.
Terran I'll get a gas and go 1/1/1 against Terran, 2 Rax against Protoss, and reactor Hellion against Zerg. Usually I can scout before I have to diverge into one of these builds, and the wall-off prevents any early cheese shenanigans from the other Random.
Zerg I'll try to get his race either with the 9 scout or my opening Overlord, and hopefully can figure out if he's Terran or not before I throw down the Pool. If not, it's not that big of a deal, I just get Speed a little faster and be wary of Hellions.
I will say, another definite perk to playing Random is that people tend to outright cheese you a lot less. Things like 6 Pool/Cannons/Proxies are non-existent except for the people who are just desperate against Random and do whatever cheese comes to mind (they exist, and they always feel the need to tell me why they cheesed after I hold it off).
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playing standard games as random is far more difficult than playing a single race. just open safely, if you're genuinely better than your opponent you will still beat them despite being at a disadvantage if they opened greedy. if you lose, then you can only blame yourself for not being good enough to overcome the fact that they play random.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved 
This.
Roll a fucking dice, pick that race. Et voila, you are playing random without hiding your race to your opponent.
The only reason to actually pick "random" at the start, is to abuse the fact that your opponent will not know what race you are while you will know what race he is.
If you wanna abuse that, fine, but don't be surprise if people are raging.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved  it doesnt have quite the same feeling, I can't explain it. I like queuing up wondering what matchup I'll get this time. when I play random I always tell my opponent my race at the start so long as they don't start bming me as soon as the game loads
Some random players give other random players a bad name. like I've met a random player who told me he was zerg when he was terran. another one on taldarim alter i said glhf. he said gl, I asked what race he was, he said "dont know" he was zerg, i scouted his early pool last. i lost. i wasnt mad as there was nothing i could have done but i know that would make some very angry.
however most of the random hate seems to be people outside of master league who really think that having to pylon scout is going to give me such a huge advantage that I have basically won the game.
i imagine it also frustrates players who just play one style or build for each matchup every game so when they encounter random players they don't have a build they can use, and if they only ever play gasless expand in TvP if they got gas incase it's another race they don't know what to do....and blame you for them not having a large enough repertoire of builds.
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On February 23 2012 23:27 UmiNotsuki wrote: As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.) I really want some data on this unfair advantage thing. The number of pros playing random is very close to 0 and yet most tournaments don't forbid it. Don't you think that if random would give an unfair advantage, pro would play random ? Especially in korea where they don't have the stupid "cheese is lame" mentality ?
Just stop it with the unfair advantage thing until we've seen some random player win some high level tournament.
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random players are only hurting themselves as you aren't ever playing against a person's optimal builds, so if you ever choose a race (which none of your cheesy noobs will anyway) you'll be playing a different game entirely from your random days
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I know random players that have played random mainly for the portraits and achievement, and I myself played 25 games of random to unlock the sentry portrait when I was fucking Protoss. Rolling the dices and manually picking doesn't allow you to unlock those portraits.
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Most Random players cheese frequently and as me being a Protoss player i dont know how i should open cus i can be vs a other Protoss player and he will be ahead or it might be some Zerg player 6 pooling.
Im also in Diamond League if you wanted to know.
EDIT:
On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved 
And this is so true, the only reason you would be picking random is to not show your race that could occur confusion for your opponment.
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I normally hate generalizing but literally every random playr ive played against has done some stupid all in or dumb unit composition and had no ability to play a macro game once their bs failed.
Also find it pathetic when random players dont tell u their race ( which is most of them). you can either play a fair game or be desperate enough for ladder points to take advantage of ur opppnent not knowing wat build to go.
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On February 23 2012 23:27 ChaosTerran wrote: I think it sucks the most for Protoss when they have to play vs. a random player, they can't FFE because there is a 66% chance it's a terran or protoss, but other openings are alot worse vs. Zerg in my opinion. The zerg can always 15 hatch against you as a protoss because you shouldn't be FFE'ing. I'd probably rage at random players alot if I played protoss, it's inconvenient as terran, but as protoss it has to be an actual nightmare.
I personally think you underestimate gate expand builds. Most protoss' I know act like anything that is not ffe versus zerg is somehow auto-loss. and pylon scouting on the majority of maps means you can block a hatch first from zerg unless you're very unlucky.
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On February 23 2012 23:32 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved  it doesnt have quite the same feeling, I can't explain it. I like queuing up wondering what matchup I'll get this time. when I play random I always tell my opponent my race at the start so long as they don't start bming me as soon as the game loads Some random players give other random players a bad name. like I've met a random player who told me he was zerg when he was terran. another one on taldarim alter i said glhf. he said gl, I asked what race he was, he said "dont know" he was zerg, i scouted his early pool last. i lost. i wasnt mad as there was nothing i could have done but i know that would make some very angry.
however most of the random hate seems to be people outside of master league who really think that having to pylon scout is going to give me such a huge advantage that I have basically won the game.i imagine it also frustrates players who just play one style or build for each matchup every game so when they encounter random players they don't have a build they can use, and if they only ever play gasless expand in TvP if they got gas incase it's another race they don't know what to do....and blame you for them not having a large enough repertoire of builds. The problem is not that I have to pylon scout. The problem is that I have to lock in my build well before I know your race.
I have to place my pylon either at my ramp (as I want to wall against Zerg) or in a safe spot in my bass (against Terrans or Protoss). Also depending on the map I might also want to open with a Forge in order to FFE against Zerg instead of with a gateway. (Even though I personally don't FFE)
It is absolutely impossible to know your race before I place my pylon or even if it is then the loss of mining time is that big that the only viable followup is to proxy 2 Gateways and hope for the best.
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id rather choose different race for every game than go random u can get terran 10 time in a row etc. just go terran-protoss-zerg-repeat if truly want play as much with all race^^
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On February 23 2012 23:37 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:27 ChaosTerran wrote: I think it sucks the most for Protoss when they have to play vs. a random player, they can't FFE because there is a 66% chance it's a terran or protoss, but other openings are alot worse vs. Zerg in my opinion. The zerg can always 15 hatch against you as a protoss because you shouldn't be FFE'ing. I'd probably rage at random players alot if I played protoss, it's inconvenient as terran, but as protoss it has to be an actual nightmare. I personally think you underestimate gate expand builds. Most protoss' I know act like anything that is not ffe versus zerg is somehow auto-loss. and pylon scouting on the majority of maps means you can block a hatch first from zerg unless you're very unlucky. Blocking the hatch of a Random Zerg is fairly pointless though, the majority of them 6pool. :p
I personally by the way allways 1Gate or even 3Gate expand in PvZ.
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I play random, and I understand the hate. When I end up against a random I just sigh and get ready to repel cheese. And more often than not I'm right. There's not many randoms who play straight up which is probably why they're so hated. That and it seems to inspire rage not knowing my race. People rage at that a lot. To that I say you have to learn 3 matchups, I have to learn 9, suck it up. If people looked at it optomistically they probably wouldn't rage so hard as it would force some diversity into their game and that's never a bad thing.
The bottom line is the majority of random players out there are just random cheesers who have no idea how to play the game. All they know how to do is 6 pool, cannon rush, 2 rax all in, 4 gate, VR cheese bullshit, and people have been conditioned to expect that when they see they're queued up against a random player. It's entirely understandable if that's their reasons for hating random.
In the end the game is just that for me, a game, and I like to enjoy myself while playing. That's why I play random, I enjoy the challenge it gives me and the diversity of the matchups. Half of it is my competitive side showing through, but half of it is just me reveling in all the different aspects of the game.
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On February 23 2012 23:30 Tobberoth wrote: Because Random is annoying as hell. You have different builds for different races, so you're forced to use a suboptimal build against a random opponent... really sucks to do a 14g/14p and find out you're playing a terran.
Seriously, to all random players: Use a dice. If 1-2, play T, if 3-4 play P, if 5-6 play Z. That way, you get to play random race, yet you're not forcing your opponent to play badly. The only reason a random player would play random and not say their race, is because they are afraid of opponents being able to play the way they want.
Pass. I like playing all three races (although I will occasionally race-pick when I'm tired of a particular matchup), but at the same time I recognize that this means I'm not as good as a normal low-Masters player in each of the 9 matchups. I'll take whatever advantage I can get to even the playing field (although I will usually tell them if they ask my race because that's awkward if I don't).
Saying that all Random players who don't announce their race at the start are "afraid," is a silly argument. I just don't see the need to relinquish that one (albeit small) advantage because you feel inconvenienced. Deal with it.
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Basically what other people have said in the thread:
1. PvR when R turns out to be zerg is a bad spot for P. You can't FFE unless you send out a really early scout (pre pylon). If you gate expand, it has to be 3 gate because they will most likely try cheesing you. 10 pools are a nightmare with gate expands. If they don't cheese you they go hatch first and power up while you are still waiting for obs/phoenix/hallucination to confirm what they are doing because random players, are well, random.
2. Forces pylon scout at least, bad for other builds.
3. PvP is arbitrary enough without random players doing their thing.
4. PvT is unpredictable enough without random players doing their thing
There is a definite difference between offracing and playing random and imo offracers understand their offrace a lot better than random players understand that particular race.
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PS: A major reason random players can never be as good at all the races as someone of the same league is at their race is also because they never play against the standard builds for those matchups. For example, virtually no random zerg will ever play against a FFE.
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On February 23 2012 22:53 Mr Showtime wrote: 95% of people who play random will cheese you. Rather than learning how to actually play the game, they try to take advantage of the surprise factor combined with a cheese strategy that take 10 minutes to learn to execute. There are some good random players, but a large majority are no skill cheesers. Actually according to my experience randoms are as likely to cheese as non-randoms. The only difference is you do not know what cheese to expect as you do not know the race.
On February 23 2012 23:20 Gosi wrote: Most random players cheese or play random to play some gimmicky strat and take advantage of that they are infact random.
But if you are a player that roll random because you do infact enjoy playing all races or you just can't settle with one race - please tell your opponent what race you spawned instead of being the ^ douche.
Or just pick a race between each matches and rotate them.
I started as terran on release, because terran was safe, but I hated how it makes me turtle on 1-2 base with tanks and turrets, so to force myself to learn more dynamic play I started to play protoss, later I added zerg and then decided to have most fun and play random. I do not do it to gain advantage so I always declare my race immediately at the start of the game. Problem is that 80+% of opponents do not believe me and are actually extremely surprised when they found out that I did not lie. Typical conversation at the start of the game is :' Me playting vs Terran - Me: glhf , I'm Protoss. Him: u2, Im Zerg Me: lol ..... he scouts Him: Wow you did not lie ...
So it seems the only solution and I definitely support it for random to be a fun choice, but on loading screen your race would already be identified.
As for picking a race before the match. That would require some random generator and that is a lot of hassle I just want to be surprised 
As for all-ins. Contrary to what I thought earlier, higher you get in the ladder terran becomes harder and harder. In the end for now, due to me playing like 2-5 games a week, I decided to give up on TvP and to some degree on TvZ. In TvP I go 1-1-1 and have like 90% winrate and easily kill protosses from platinum and even diamond (I am currently high gold). 1-1-1 reasonably well executed on that level is just really OP shit As for TvZ my multitasking is just not good enough to match well executed mass muta, while doing all the other necessary crap, so lately I quite often go 1-base hellion maraduder+stim all-in. Works quite nicely especially considering how many zergs go roach pressure , but unlike TvP I still mix in macro games.
In all other matchups I am extremely long game focused and NEVER all-in first and definitely NEVER cheese. I think a lot of people here have perception bias as I know that except me more random players play macro games.
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Depending on the map, I feel like playing against Random players on ladder is a waste of time. I can understand people wanting to play all three races, but I think that the Random player shouldn't be allowed the early game "edge" in that the opp. has to scout them before they know what the hell is going on, especially on maps like Tal'Darim, where Hatch First in ZvZ can be suicide because of the lack of a ramp, but any kind of non Hatch-first build leaves you in an awful position in ZvT.
Also, at least at a low-mid Masters level, most of the random players I play, maybe around 60-70% usually resort to some stupid one-base build they've learnt for that race, which is always fun. (Pulling this figure out my ass, oh well =P)
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Because why random?
Every player has different build orders for different matchups. Random players force the opponent to scout them before any build order has been established. If for example I face a random who gets to play as a Terran and I am a Protoss then it's very uncharacteristic to wall-off. The same goes for mirror-matchups.
It's just a pain in the ass to play against random especially when the common stereotype is that random players cheese.
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I have never received much rage as a random. I almost always play macro games, and when I started announcing my race at the start of games recently, many players actually thanked me.*
I play random to earn portraits, and I am quite happy to do that by playing long games. It also saves me the trouble of deciding which race I am best suited to overall - I have so much to learn still that I don't see how I could make that decision at present. After 3000 wins at each race, I hope to have a better idea.
*Announcing my race and being believed means that I have to deal with fewer cannon rushes. It just wasn't fun, even if those games were freewins.
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On February 23 2012 23:42 chestnutcc wrote: PS: A major reason random players can never be as good at all the races as someone of the same league is at their race is also because they never play against the standard builds for those matchups. For example, virtually no random zerg will ever play against a FFE.
This is the only viable point I've seen so far. It's true that as a Random player I almost never face FFE in ZvP, which is unfortunate, unless I'm in practice games and then I race-pick.
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Out of curiosity I would like to ask you all the following.
Poll: Should the option of picking random be removed?Yes (43) 41% No (37) 36% No (I play Random) (23) 22% Yes (I play Random) (1) 1% 104 total votes Your vote: Should the option of picking random be removed? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Yes (I play Random) (Vote): No (I play Random)
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Random players are usually cheese or they just do 2 base all ins. One night I qued up 3 times vs the same random player. 1 bane burst, 1 7rr and a 111 all in with cloack banshee. Even if I won 3-0 I felt super disgusted by the fact that he never expanded once during "series" we had. He also complained about some random things and called me bad cuz every game I scouted 3 time his front/main sometimes even with 2 probes if the 1st died.
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The way i see it random players are just good at cheesing with all three races they never really learn to play them.
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On February 23 2012 23:32 bouhko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:27 UmiNotsuki wrote: As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.) I really want some data on this unfair advantage thing. The number of pros playing random is very close to 0 and yet most tournaments don't forbid it. Don't you think that if random would give an unfair advantage, pro would play random ? Especially in korea where they don't have the stupid "cheese is lame" mentality ? Just stop it with the unfair advantage thing until we've seen some random player win some high level tournament.
Look, you don't need data for the point to be obviously true. It's obviously true that most players have builds that deviate from each other depending on their opponent's race before they might want to scout. That makes it obvious that they either have to scout earlier than they would like to (which is sub-optimal) or just pick a build that's either acceptable against all three races (but not particularly good against one, which is bad because our opponent is only playing one race) or pick one that is good against a specific race and hope their opponent spawned as that race.
That makes it obvious that it's unlikely that a non-random player will go into a game as strongly as they would if they were against the same race, but knew that before hand. There's an innate advantage to decision making that knowing your opponent's options can bring.
Not to mention how obvious it is that it's almost impossible to effectively cheese a random player because there are effectively no cheeses that work against all three races. This removes the fear of cheese from a random player and allows them to be greedier than normal, or even to cheese themselves without their opponent necessarily knowing what they're going to do beforehand.
It is all pretty obvious... The reason pros don't play random is because depth beats breadth, but for the more casual ladder player far too many games can be won by a random player cheesing.
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This never happened to me in master league as a random player. must have to do with either your league or maybe your ingame id.
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Mostly random players are just cheesers, in my expirience every time someone goes random I get a protoss that cannon rushes me.
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I play in platinum league EU, and whenever I'm matched vs a random, I ask them what race they are. I usually get one off these three answers: 1. No / not telling me. (65%) 2. Tells me a race, but not the one they got. (30%) 3. Tells me what race they really are (5%) In my eyes 95% of random players are being BM.
Also when you are up vs a random player who doesn't tell you what race they are playing, what opening are you supposed to do? I played Zerg but switched to Terran recently. I can do a 1rax expo vs X, but for Zerg and Protoss I feel like its gonna be a coin flip or a really bad opening.
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The way I see it, the majority is that you all hate random players because of their cheese. Then when they don't cheese and your behind you complain? It's a strategy and a risk, where we (as random players) run the risk of having to play 3 different kinds of games versus whatever race you have. You think you are at a disadvantage because of cheese, well I think I'm at a disadvantage because I have to know 3 different races, builds for each, timings for each, hotkeys for each, and factor in my build that you don't know what my race is yet.
Seeing as those are my disadvantages, to your disadvantage of not knowing for 2 minutes before you scout me what my race is, I'd be pretty happy to be paired up with another random on the ladder. (But so much can happen in those two minutes, i could make a FFE instead of a gate, wah wah wah) I don't care. That is part of my strategy of a random player to throw you off of your game, get you out of your comfort zone and make you make mistakes. Is it because I'm a worse player? Probably. But I'm not the only random player out there, there is a purpose for it, and I'm exploiting that reason to the best of my ability as an average diamond random player.
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It blows my mind so many people whine that random forces them to use sub-optimal openings. Yes, you will get plenty of non-standard games with weird situations while playing against a random. Yes, you will have to adapt, use your brain, and actually think, rather than go through the motions of your standard build. That's not a bad thing - that makes you a versatile and adaptable player.
Of course, that doesn't apply to the randoms who just proxy / 6-pool / whatever, which is most randoms. Those games are kinda meh and it does force a "find-the-cheese" kinda attitude while playing vR. I don't see that as a problem though, if they cheese you should be able to stop it, if they don't your one-race macro should let you catch up to theirs.
Random players who play proper games however, I have nothing but respect for them. It forces you to think, and too few players these days bother with that step.
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On February 23 2012 23:40 chestnutcc wrote: Basically what other people have said in the thread:
1. PvR when R turns out to be zerg is a bad spot for P. You can't FFE unless you send out a really early scout (pre pylon). If you gate expand, it has to be 3 gate because they will most likely try cheesing you. 10 pools are a nightmare with gate expands. If they don't cheese you they go hatch first and power up while you are still waiting for obs/phoenix/hallucination to confirm what they are doing because random players, are well, random.
2. Forces pylon scout at least, bad for other builds.
3. PvP is arbitrary enough without random players doing their thing.
4. PvT is unpredictable enough without random players doing their thing
There is a definite difference between offracing and playing random and imo offracers understand their offrace a lot better than random players understand that particular race.
I disagree with this entirely. I've spawned P in RvR while my opponent has spawned Z. There is nothing wrong with 3GE, 2GE or even 1GE and nothing wrong with pylon scouting either. If he 10 pools against any of those builds you should be safe at home, and he'll have already taken a huge economic hit. Pvp you're going to be pylon scouting anyways unless you want to lose. I think PvT is fairly NOT random. It's incredibly standard, with set timings and builds and should be as easy to play at out as PvR(T) as PvT.
I think most of this is just lazy people who don't wanna scout and just want the game wrapped up in a neat little package. I think the unpredictability of a vR matchup is exciting and will make you a better, more adaptable player. If you really don't want to play it out because apparently you're so far behind and you're going to lose anyway just leave. I don't when sc2 players got so spoiled.
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It's an unfair advantage. You can't play standard against random.
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because random is imba. it changes your build order. you have to play safe, wall off. you can not forge expand. etc...
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toss vs random..... have to wall off ALL the time and if your zerg, toss cant FFE then if you toss we lost time walling off having to prepare for you being zerg... it gets stupid at times
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On February 23 2012 23:47 sPitcraZy wrote: The way i see it random players are just good at cheesing with all three races they never really learn to play them. Dunno in mid masters and higher its not uncommon to find macro random player, but its uncommon to find random player 
Maybe because im zerg, and zerg has it easy vs random.
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when i play toss I allways leave when a random pops up on some maps like taldarim it's just retarded........
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On February 23 2012 23:44 Wroshe wrote:Out of curiosity I would like to ask you all the following. Poll: Should the option of picking random be removed?Yes (43) 41% No (37) 36% No (I play Random) (23) 22% Yes (I play Random) (1) 1% 104 total votes Your vote: Should the option of picking random be removed? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Yes (I play Random) (Vote): No (I play Random)
This makes me so sad, well ok, i guess that most random players cheese a lot, that's something i never do. So i guess there's some basis for this hatred prejudice, but it's sad that it affects normal players like me, who just like to play all races. Do we random players have a small advantage with our opponents not knowing what race we play? For sure. Do we random players have a bigger disadvantage for not practicing one race fulltime? For sure.
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its lame to play against random. if you are trying to work on a strategy for each matchup and someone plays random then you can't practice your strat you just have to wing it and its annoying. they get an advantage because you have to scout faster, and they are always not as good players, they just do cheese and stupid strategies that abuse how hard it is to scout. personally i just go proxy 11 11 rax every time i play against random and it actually works like 90% of the time because they don't scout and they play super abusive like 14cc or 14 nexus :D
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I don't mind them playing the three races, it's just that most of them cheese
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because random players dont play either race well, and most of them just rely on allins which abuse the fact that the opponent doesnt know your race and can't start with an optimal build.
And as a zerg, whenever a random player gets zerg he's 90% of the time is doing 6 pool, so i 'd have to go for something like a 13 or 14 pool, which is ok vs P too i guess, but u're fucked big time if he's zerg and mind-games you and does hatch-gas-pool into speedling allin. And obviously u're way behind vs Terran
just met a random player, i started off with asking if he ever expoed, at liek 0:10, guess what he was 6 pooling with pulling all the drones
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maybe it's just because the players are so random?!
titter titter
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I'm about the same league as you and i get it a lot too, but just like if i main race'd as something else i'm sure i'd get the same things nontheless.
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because people don't want to learn to play against a 4th race, the opening against random is different for every race except zerg. So its an evil advantage you have.
If the bm really upsets you, use a dice to determine your race, because even if you announce it people will just bm. But be warned people are in a way better mind set if they don't see this random sign and play better. Its funny how playing random can get me even higher up in masters, because my great weakness is macro and if the opponent sees random they suddenly play safe.
Started to dice so people will mess up less against me. Random just felt like a free win in every 3rd game. (and free wins are not a good training or fun). Its horrible that so many people try to avoid anything that needs extra training. That being said its fun to switch to random every once in a while. And show people that its not a good idea to wallin against random.
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On February 23 2012 23:54 ki11z0ne wrote: toss vs random..... have to wall off ALL the time and if your zerg, toss cant FFE then if you toss we lost time walling off having to prepare for you being zerg... it gets stupid at times
You don't 100% need a wall-in vs Zerg that soon actually. You can create the wall-in with your 3rd Pylon and be fine. Versus a 6 pool you are completely OK if you just build Gateway near your Nexus powered by 2 Pylons. As such I don't really mind playing against Random. Generally I'd say they are worse than a player who specialized in a race in the longer game and (I guess therefore) they seem to cheese more often. So if you just play a very safe longer game you are fine vs Random in general I'd say
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Can't speak for everyone but personally believe Random gets BM " loving " is cause some try to do All-in's for that race they got ..... Funny thing is when I face random vs my protoss account , they all in about the same as the other players who actually choose their race ..... We just tend to remember the random ** maybe cause .... until we scout we are not sure what race they are .... so the first 1-3 minutes we are constantly thinking of what race they might be **
I play random on my other account , cause I like to play the other races and to break the monotony of playing one race all the time ..... I play macro or long games , cause I want to learn and get better at the other races ..... I still get BM when I win 15 min or greater game ..... people usually BM cause they actually performed poorly in that game and can't blame themselves
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On February 23 2012 23:54 Opec wrote: It's an unfair advantage. You can't play standard against random.
But from the random player's perspective, you can't play standard as all three races at the same level, period. Non-random can focus on developing solid standard play for one race. Random, if they want to do that, are at a disadvantage because they can't focus on developing solid play for one race.
So yeah, they get the advantage "out the gate" in that their opponents need to be more cautious earlier on, but as the game goes on, the fact that it's a guy who practices all 3 races vs. a guy who focuses on perfecting one race becomes more important i would imagine
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On February 23 2012 23:56 coL.drewbie wrote: its lame to play against random. if you are trying to work on a strategy for each matchup and someone plays random then you can't practice your strat you just have to wing it and its annoying. they get an advantage because you have to scout faster, and they are always not as good players, they just do cheese and stupid strategies that abuse how hard it is to scout. personally i just go proxy 11 11 rax every time i play against random and it actually works like 90% of the time because they don't scout and they play super abusive like 14cc or 14 nexus :D Yea, I also use to cheese random players, because they normally try to delay scouting, so you wont know what race they are
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Random players generally do not understand any match up as well as the people they ladder against who choose their race. Thus in order to reach that level they depend on the fact that their race is unknown until scouted, which is a huge advantage in the early game. This makes your opponent play very generically early (or take an extreme risk themselves), and allows you to abuse them to with a variety of cheeses, or play extremely greedy without your opponent being able to punish you. So when you play random, you're allowed to do things that you couldn't pull off if you picked your race.
Thus random players often depend not on their own skill to reach the level they achieve, but the advantage they get in the early game simply from playing random. Knowing this, if you play aggressive, you can expose random players for what most of them are: players with less skill than yourself.
So basically I just cheese random players, because they have a lot of holes in their game mechanically, and a well executed cheese almost always kills them, especially if they are trying to be greedy. Furthermore, since I can't practice my builds as usual, I have no desire to play a macro game against them as it won't be an accurate gauge of the viability of my build because I had to open generically.
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On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: Random should show your race upon startup.
I agree with this 100% I am a zerg player but will play random from time to time and this season I have been playing random most of the time. If I am random and spawn as zerg and my opponent is toss, its basically gg if I decide to 6 pool.. I don't think that is fair, but i LOVE seeing people rage about it.. when you are facing random you need to scout very early and plan for the worst.
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I guess the middle ground between removing random and keeping it would be the system declaring which race has been picked for the for all to see. That would even up the immediate advantage given to such players.
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On February 24 2012 00:05 LucidityDark wrote: I guess the middle ground between removing random and keeping it would be the system declaring which race has been picked for the for all to see. That would even up the immediate advantage given to such players.
This would be the most logical fix and I'm suprised they haven't done it yet given that you can random in competitive play.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved  And this is so true, the only reason you would be picking random is to not show your race that could occur confusion for your opponment. Exactly ... stop with "roll the dice" or something like that. We want this advantage!
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I play Protoss, so my first pylon is almost always in a different position whether I'm against Zerg or I'm against Terran/ Protoss. Not knowing the race of my opponent puts me at an inherent disadvantage, as I'm forced to do some middle-of-the-road build that always involves gateway first (never FFE, or at least a wall, which is the normal in PvZ but not done in PvT or PvP).
Also, I get 6pooled and 8pooled by Random Zergs more frequently than I get 6pooled or 8pooled by regular Zergs. Same with proxy 2gates or 2rax. I don't mind the concept of cheese at all, and I understand that it's a legitimate part of the game, but playing against a Random limits your choices early on, as you need to be safe from 3x as many cheese builds, all the while recognizing that the opponent could be simply fast expanding, giving him a huge lead anyway.
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People hate random for the same reason why hating other races, which is "abusing" the race's strenghts:
Advantage random: Unpredictable during early game
As the goal of the game is to win, its likely to assume and normal that the players utilize this advantage, sadly in this case its often exploiting the early game (cheese?). However random players are often weaker in the regular meta-game as they have less race specific experience.
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PvR's a pain because of build order losses.
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1) because random often cheeses, I'd say 3/4 of the time I face a random player, they're cheesing
2) because if you can't manage to scout the random player by 14 supply or so, your build order can be totally fucked up. Especially as zerg, I do something different against each race... If its terran you might hatch first, but thats auto lose vs z and P... if its protoss you might pool hatch, but thats a really tough build to defend with in zvz... so basically by picking random you get a large chance to win the game by coinflip randomness and not skill
3) coinflip randomness.... starcraft2 should have as little inherent random chance as possible. This isnt warcraft or some other cutesy RPG. Every action and result should be deliberate.
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If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else.
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Because most people hate every race that they dont play, each for different reasons. The main reason that people hate random is that on 4 player maps, you cant react to information when choosing your build. You dont have any information to work with when you spawn, but the enemy does, and this puts you at a disadvantage, however small it may be.
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I'm glad I play Terran, I can just 1RExpand whatever race there is.
It's still pretty annoying when they do their shitty all ins though.
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As I moved up on the ladder the amount of random players using all-ins significantly decreased but I still hate to play versus them as you can basically throw your build out of the window which makes the game feel useless for practice. On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game.
I agree that it would be the best solution to show the race on the loading screen for (at least) 1v1 games and if most people do it is time to let Blizzard know as changing this probably isn't a huge deal.
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The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what) So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view
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On February 24 2012 00:15 darkscream wrote: 1) because random often cheeses, I'd say 3/4 of the time I face a random player, they're cheesing
2) because if you can't manage to scout the random player by 14 supply or so, your build order can be totally fucked up. Especially as zerg, I do something different against each race... If its terran you might hatch first, but thats auto lose vs z and P... if its protoss you might pool hatch, but thats a really tough build to defend with in zvz... so basically by picking random you get a large chance to win the game by coinflip randomness and not skill
3) coinflip randomness.... starcraft2 should have as little inherent random chance as possible. This isnt warcraft or some other cutesy RPG. Every action and result should be deliberate.
1. Cheese is part of the game. Would you tolerate someone complaining about fog of war? No, because it's part of the game. Accept it and move on.
2. Then your build was crap to begin with. If you start the game wanting to go straight to a macro play, but you see you oponent forcing you to repel a simple rush, do you also complain your build order is "totally fucked up"? Why are you entitled to a predetermined build order, no matter what the other guy does in the game? Adapt your build and move on.
3. BW also had random, you must really hate that game too.
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On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game.
Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible
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On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else.
^
Hey now don't be rational, your breaking from the thread's trend. It's not like Random players have shit to deal with too when they are random, don't know what race they are before the game starts, and know how to work 3 different races instead of 1. Shucks man get it together.
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Random players are no real practice, unless you say your race at the beginning. Also often times cheese, and no macro games. That's why people might say to you "waste of time".
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Okay, in fact, only protoss players rage because they dont know where put they first pylon. Ok i'm fine now, i got my answer. close topic :D
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As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh.
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as a zerg whenever i play vs random i always play vs the 'worst case scenario' which is assuming a zvz. So if i want an expansion i go 9 scout and if not i do 14/14
I suppose, though, that gas speed is versatile enough that zerg does 'best' vs random? Or maybe they're easiest to abuse. I'm kind of interested in XvR stats now
EDIT: I'm curious how 14/14 is auto loss to 2rax. not enough larva?
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On February 24 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game. Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible
I meant that you don't have to pick random to experience different races. You can just pick a race for each different game or roll a dice like has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
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I dont BM the random players, but I dont like facing them. A lot of them cheese or have no clue what they are doing so everything is late and that can catch someone off guard. But cheese, mostly cheese.
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On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else. I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I did read, no one called it imba. Just merely pointing out that it is very annoying to deal with early game. As a Toss player if a random gets zerg I'm pretty much fucked... with no FFE I'm at an instant disadvantage. Not to mention as pointed out many times... I get cheesed more often then not by random players. Not saying they are imbalance and I really don't hate or have a problem with random players at all. Just answering OP's question of why people BM random players.
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On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote: The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what) So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing.
You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
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On February 24 2012 00:24 Samp wrote: I dont BM the random players, but I dont like facing them. A lot of them cheese or have no clue what they are doing so everything is late and that can catch someone off guard. But cheese, mostly cheese.
There's also this shitty feeling when you win because you feel like it wasn't rewarding at all. Kind of the opposite sometimes.
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Because if your zerg and the other guy is random AND doesnt tell you his race you have a 1/3 chance to die. You go pool first hello 2 rax gg. you go hatch first hello canon rush and 6 pool. Im fine if random tells race and doesnt abuse opening advantage but not telling race is just the most annoying thing in sc2
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they yust ahte it when they dont know what oppening to use
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Well, when I do meet a random player on ladder, in 90% of the cases we will throw an all-in on me. That's for sure, I know it right when I see the loading screen and therefore win most of those games, cause I'm prepared. (sometimes I lose, cause I get to scout them late or can't figure out the right all-in (in case of protoss for ex.)) But it sucks if you want to train your mid-endgame mechanics and multitasking, and also playing only vs all-ins is no real fun. If random players would tend to normal standard play, which of course is very hard for them, then they would get less hate from their opponents .
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......when u random....you gain a pretty big advantage...protoss can't do anything but wall off....unless we get lucky and get your first scouting location
People who say "Lawl they just BM everything" need to sit back and look at the problem with it...1gate/expo against zerg = zerg gets WAY ahead...
Walling off against a protoss...basically means those buildings u placed will get sniped...yay!!! Random!
aainst terran...once again they snipe ur buildings...
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when i get matched vs random player im 95% sure that its gonna be some proxy cheese or 1 base allin. There are no 'good' random players in master league. All are cheesy @#$*^%@.
Just played a random who rolled zerg. Obviously roach ling allin transitioning into roach burrow allin transitioning into roach infestor into dying. All on 35 drones. Playing vs random players is a waste of time.
BTW if you are Protoss and say that you have 'build order loss' if u play agains random zerg, then there's something wrong with you. FFE isnt the only viable build.
User was warned for this post
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haha, im a masters random player, and i pretty much never cheese... however I get cheesed pretty much 50% of the games because my opponents tell me they don't want to play against random players.
Now I mostly tell my opponents my race in the start of the game... but they never believe me 
Edit: Ah yes see the person above for a good example :D
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On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote: As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh.
Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead.
You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
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I dislike playing vs random (I dont BM, but I'm not happy) because 1) I don't know how to open. I know how the pro players open ZvZ, ZvP and ZvT, and what the risk/rewards are for the different openings, but how are pros playing ZvR? Answer is: they don't. 2) They tend to cheese, and I while it is part of the game, I already get enough cheese on bnet thank you very much. I'm not placing any judgements on right and wrong here, just that these two are the reasons why I personally go ":/" when I see a random on the load screen.
In a way I respect random players because they have learned to play all three races, but on the other hand I don't, because in most cases they haven't.
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On February 24 2012 00:29 Kira__ wrote:haha, im a masters random player, and i pretty much never cheese... however I get cheesed pretty much 50% of the games because my opponents tell me they don't want to play against random players.Now I mostly tell my opponents my race in the start of the game... but they never believe me  THAT'S THE POINT BRO :D
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I dont like random players cause so far i've only met one random player who went into a macro game and actually beat me at it. Other random players will just pick some random cheese to do which pisses me off.
I JUST played a random player who went proxy barracks into 2 port banshee. The previous one i played went 4 gate. I know its hard to learn all builds/timings of all matchups and all races but to the people playing random players, its just annoying that all they do are one base builds..
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On February 24 2012 00:26 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: Because if your zerg and the other guy is random AND doesnt tell you his race you have a 1/3 chance to die. You go pool first hello 2 rax gg. you go hatch first hello canon rush and 6 pool. Im fine if random tells race and doesnt abuse opening advantage but not telling race is just the most annoying thing in sc2 sooo true. Playing randoms gives a huge advantage in the 'build order choice' game.
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On February 24 2012 00:28 DrGreen wrote: when i get matched vs random player im 95% sure that its gonna be some proxy cheese or 1 base allin. There are no 'good' random players in master league. All are cheesy @#$*^%@.
Just played a random who rolled zerg. Obviously roach ling allin transitioning into roach burrow allin transitioning into roach infestor into dying. All on 35 drones. Playing vs random players is a waste of time.
BTW if you are Protoss and say that you have 'build order loss' if u play agains random zerg, then there's something wrong with you. FFE isnt the only viable build.
Why are you so mad? The fact that you sare there are no 'good' random players in Master League, and that all of them are cheesy *expletives* invalidates the rest of your post. I am in Master League (whether I'm 'good' is obviously subjective) and I am not a cheesy *expletive*.
Take your broad-stroke generalizations somewhere else. It's true that the stereotype exists for a reason, which is why you might scout a little bit better than you normally do (how unthinkable!), but assuming you are a good player, the no-skill random cheeser shouldn't pose much of a problem. Collect your ladder points and move on to the next match.
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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote: As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly. You are wrong You can't stop two rax properly executed if you go 14/14.
You can stop it if you go 12 / 11, or 11 / 12. But that's an all in baneling cheese build that shouldn't work if scouted vs P or T.
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else. I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I did read, no one called it imba. Just merely pointing out that it is very annoying to deal with early game. As a Toss player if a random gets zerg I'm pretty much fucked... with no FFE I'm at an instant disadvantage. Not to mention as pointed out many times... I get cheesed more often then not by random players. Not saying they are imbalance and I really don't hate or have a problem with random players at all. Just answering OP's question of why people BM random players. Here are a couple of quotes, with my emphasis:
On February 23 2012 23:27 UmiNotsuki wrote: At diamond level at least, the vast, vast majority of random players cheese every game. This can be enraging because being random imparts an unfair advantage upon you until your opponent determines your race, which makes random cheese imbalanced and particularly difficult to hold off in most spawn positions on most maps.
I personally have a high diamond random friend who does not cheese and is actually very good at macro games with all three races. It's not impossible, but it takes a lot more dedication. But that's one random player who's not cheesed me out of nearly all the random's I've ever played. It gets frustrating before long.
As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.)
On February 23 2012 23:54 [thork] wrote: because random is imba. it changes your build order. you have to play safe, wall off. you can not forge expand. etc...
This "randoms have a major advantage" bullshit keeps getting thrown around. No one has answered why there are no top pros playing random. Think about it, this fact alone utterly destroys your whole point.
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On February 24 2012 00:24 Slapshot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game. Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible I meant that you don't have to pick random to experience different races. You can just pick a race for each different game or roll a dice like has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
Thats how I do it, but really the only reason to do that is to not inconvenience your opponents. Most people wont want to bother switching races just for that purpose, easier to just set it to random and keep clicking find match.
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I'm not saying that I have a negative opinion of random players, but it is logical to expect someone who has to cover all 6 matchups, ZvZ, ZvT, ZvP, TvP, PvP, TvT to cut corners or cheese instead of taking the time to learn all of the possible matchups in-depth.
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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote: As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
Zergs stopped using it against Terran because it allows the terran to build 3 bunkers at the bottom of your ramp since you don't have the hatch there. Yes you might be able to stop it but if the terran is good he's going to have it up. Even if he doesnt 2 rax you're stuck with a worthless ling speed and bad eco while he can do whatever he wants. Finally if you put your hatch down around 20 supply (standard expand after 14/14) you won't have spines in time for the hellion harass. It's just really bad, which is why I don't like playing against random like aebriol said, you have to open 15 hatch or you die against terran, if he ffes you die, if he 9 pools you die. Might as well roll a dice =D
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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote: As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
no you can´t. there is no way a high master random will lose with 2 rax against 14/14. you dont have creep for a spinecrawler at your natural and not enough lings (because of larva) to hold against marine pushs. even if you hold your way behind in eco cause you cant build drones.
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On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
You're never behind going gateway first because you can do so much Artosis on his stream was doing sick things with 3gate expand
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote: The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what) So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing. You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
For a lot players half the fun of this game is probably figuring out, practicing and refining matchup and race specific build orders and strategies which they see their favorite pro's use on stream or in tournaments. To a certain extent this is not possible versus random players and therefore it can feel like a waste of time to play against them.
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No pro could play random and have a chance at winning a tournament. They could win rounds due to the gimmicky bullshit of playing random but the fact they have to master 9 different matchups means they can't. Because being a progamer is all about trying to win tournaments you're shooting yourself in both feet by playing random.
But you can play random on ladder because it's fun. Look at all the fun we're having!
And yea, Protoss players get mindfucked by random. Wall off top and die to PvP, don't wall off top and die to Zerg. Cuts off nexus first and forge FE as viable builds, which just wrecks how a lot of people might want to play a certain matchup. I don't play Protoss myself but a mate of mine who does just does proxy 2 gate vs random, because fuck that shit.
I do hate random for that reason too, also because a lot of people who play random are just retards who do stupid shit because, well, look at all the fun we're having.
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EU diamond here. I always ask what race my random opponent is (after I've said "have fun! :D ♥" ) and the vast majority either ignore me, or refuse to tell me their race (eg "im random lol"). It is extremely rare that a random opponent actually replies with his race, and I have NEVER had a random opponent volunteer that information without my prompting.
This is what bugs me. Cheese is understandable (learning 9 matchups is hard afterall), and I have respect for a player who can play all three races at the level I play ONE, but by hiding their race it tells me that they care more about ladder points than trying to be a better player and playing an authentic game.
I don't mind random itself, but I do have a problem with the mentality of what seems to be the majority of people who pick random.
EDIT: though, thinking about it, I expect that the vast majority of ALL players on ladder probably care more about ladder points than trying to be a better player. The only difference is that a random player with this attitude is easy to spot.
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I love the bm @$$ hats who leave if they get wrong race free ladder points for me guess and saves you unnecessary frustration. Bring protoss is nightmare in a match w with a random opponent
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I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing.
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On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing.
While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right?
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All this whining on TL. I thought this was the Blizzard forum for a sec.
I honestly don't get it. I would say the same thing to people who whine about Terran, Portoss, or Zerg being Imba. If it's so imba why don't you do it then? In this game you don't get to play the way you want, you have to play to the map and the race.
What I think the case is Random is such an rare race, that most people don't have a good build order in a vs Random game. The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player!
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Because random players can't play macro games, it's always stupid cheese.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right? I have had two or three people telling me their race. None of them lied.
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On February 23 2012 23:56 coL.drewbie wrote: its lame to play against random. if you are trying to work on a strategy for each matchup and someone plays random then you can't practice your strat you just have to wing it and its annoying. they get an advantage because you have to scout faster, and they are always not as good players, they just do cheese and stupid strategies that abuse how hard it is to scout. personally i just go proxy 11 11 rax every time i play against random and it actually works like 90% of the time because they don't scout and they play super abusive like 14cc or 14 nexus :D Shouldn't, in your case, TvR also be something to practice? Sure, it is unlikely that you will encounter this in a tournament setting (just like we all match vs. Random in a small minority of our ladder matches), but would you want to be completely lost if you had an important match that mattered versus Random?
I've played a good bit of Zerg and Protoss, not very much Terran, but reading this thread makes me want to try playing as Random on ladder for the variety. The people who want Random removed seem to forget that this is a game, and that the Random option adds some fun to the game. I can understand lobbying against it in tournaments where such a decision would not affect the casual player. Hopefully Random is not forbidden in too many tournaments; the scarcity of even semi-pro Randoms and of Random success in tournaments makes it clear that there's no competitive problem with the race, even at the top level.
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Has anyone tried asking politely what race is the opponent? Most of the times they will be truthfull. What I do is, ask and send a scout after 1st depot at wall. Now if they answered I'll do the opening for the race he said at the wall. If I find out they lied, I usually prepare for some all-in, if they didn't lie based on the scouting I'll keep going as normal. If they don't answer at all I prepare for general all-in until I scout they are not.
Surprisingly a grand majority of the non-cheesers and non-early all-in answers fast and truthfully to the question.
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Why do people hate randoms? Because people are idiots simple answer.
I'll never ever understand why people play a STRATEGY game and then complain about the strategy someone chooses. Like their is some effing manual on "how to play Starcraft like a gentleman". I choose my strategy, you choose yours, may the best man win. Your opponent isn't obligating to playing the game how you want him to but yet people still feel that way.
If you think a certain race is imba, or playing random is imba, or cheesing is imba, or some build is imba, (first of all you would be wrong) but second of all you can pick what race you play or how you play. And don't give people the "i have self respect so I won't play (insert imba bias) or cheese" lol that's the stupidest shit ever.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right?
70% of the time the opponent says "yeah right" or "lol", but at least I did my part haha.
I also believe blizz should add an option to randomly pick your race just before the match starts, so you pick random but the race is shown when the game is loading like Random (Zerg), I would use that for sure.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 woody60707 wrote: The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player! Please enlighten us protoss and zerg players what build that should be ...
Because it doesn't exist.
I guess it might exist for Terran, but it does not exist for Protoss or Zerg.
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United States7483 Posts
I hate playing against random players, because against each race I want to do a specific build as an opener, but not knowing what race he is pidgeon-holes me into certain openers. Can't forge fast expand against a random player, because if he got terran or toss you lose, but if he's zerg all of the sudden you're not where you wanted to be. All sorts of issues like that.
Picking random is a cheap and dirty way to get an advantage in a game by preventing your opponent by forcing your opponent to use certain builds. How often do you go random zerg and have to deal with a toss who went forge fast expand? How often do you spawn terran to find that the toss walled off and his buildings are super vulnerable?
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In masters NA, I've actually met a decent amount of random players who play quite greedily, which is somewhat surprising seeing how many people will cheese against randoms. About 3 people over my SC2 career have told me their race at the start without being prompted. Still, it changes how your opponent plays against you, and is thus subpar in learning to play the game more effectively. I'd say take a page from Day9, obviously not everyone can afford separate accounts, but use a simple dice between games, 1-2 pick Z, 3-4 pick P, 5-6 pick T and so on. Of course, this removes the "random advantage" but in the long run makes more effective practice.
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I don't like playing vs random because there is a high percentage chance of cheese and as a Protoss player I find it Very annoying having to do gateway builds on maps where a nexus first would be my normal build. Also I find random players to have this feeling that they know more about Starcraft because they play random where 99 percent of the time it is the opposite
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When I play against a random I also scout at 9 drones lol, huge economic loss but I think it kinds of compensate for the fact the random guy would probably macro a little worse than I do. But I play in mid/lower diamond, at higher levels I know that would not work.
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On February 24 2012 00:36 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
You're never behind going gateway first because you can do so much Artosis on his stream was doing sick things with 3gate expand
Playing 3gate expand in PvZ is way harder and more fragile than playing FFE. It's just not the same economy you get, and Protosses may have not practiced their 1 basing that much against Zerg. P plays PvRandomZ way less than the Random player plays ZvP (1 / 9), so he basically has no practice 3gate expanding if he usually FFE every game against straight up Zerg (which is reasonable, by the way).
So yeah, as weird as it sounds, PvRZ can really be a free loss for the P (or close to it, like if he was playing an entirely different matchup) who's not used at all to this shit, whereas the Random has full practice with his gimmicky forge-free ZvP. One of the main argument of Random players is that they are not as experienced in playing a standard game, but this is actually reversed in this case. Random Z can comfortably play his standard weird ZvP, but P cannot plays his standard FFE PvZ, and it's silly especially on maps like Shakuras Plateau.
Do we have to account for the possibility of playing Random Zerg in our practice? Probably. Should we have to? Well, that's a useless pain in the ass for most Protoss players...
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On February 24 2012 00:42 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right? I have had two or three people telling me their race. None of them lied.
I completely understand, and I'm sure you appreciate the honesty, but I hope you can see why someone could potentially lie to gain an advantage. It's as much a mental game as it is anything else No Random player has ever offered me his race at the start of the game (as expected, considering that's a huge advantage for him to just give away), and so I figure that if I ask him, he could just as easily lie as tell me the truth. Therefore, there's no reason for me to ask.
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Because a large portion of random players go for cheesy strats and it's much harder to hold of vs random player because of your initial advantage of knowing your opponents race but no the other way around.
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Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill.
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On February 24 2012 00:43 TheV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. While I think that is an extremely nice gesture, I trust my opponent 0% of the time with things like that. Regardless of what he says, he could still be any race. He could merely be trying to trick me to gain a psychological advantage... a win's a win, right? 70% of the time the opponent says "yeah right" or "lol", but at least I did my part haha. I also believe blizz should add an option to randomly pick your race just before the match starts, so you pick random but the race is shown when the game is loading like Random (Zerg), I would use that for sure.
You definitely did your part ^^ You don't even need to give away such an advantage lol.
I would love for that alternative to exist... Randoms play Random but the opponent knows what race he's playing against.
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On February 24 2012 00:43 Pro]ChoSen- wrote: Why do people hate randoms? Because people are idiots simple answer.
I'll never ever understand why people play a STRATEGY game and then complain about the strategy someone chooses. Like their is some effing manual on "how to play Starcraft like a gentleman". I choose my strategy, you choose yours, may the best man win. Your opponent isn't obligating to playing the game how you want him to but yet people still feel that way.
If you think a certain race is imba, or playing random is imba, or cheesing is imba, or some build is imba, (first of all you would be wrong) but second of all you can pick what race you play or how you play. And don't give people the "i have self respect so I won't play (insert imba bias) or cheese" lol that's the stupidest shit ever.
It is imba. You start 1/3 games with a build order win. And i think actually learning the game instead of abuseing the shit out of it shows self respect. if you want to learn all 3 races just change yours from game to game. What is the difference to playing random? you dont get the fucking imba advantage!
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My solution to random players is to allin the shit out of them.
And then they bm me for some reason.
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I hate random players because they are so condescending because they play the whole 3 races. After I beat a random player some of them even say:
"at least I know how to play all three races"
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On February 24 2012 00:45 Penecks wrote: In masters NA, I've actually met a decent amount of random players who play quite greedily, which is somewhat surprising seeing how many people will cheese against randoms. About 3 people over my SC2 career have told me their race at the start without being prompted. Still, it changes how your opponent plays against you, and is thus subpar in learning to play the game more effectively. I'd say take a page from Day9, obviously not everyone can afford separate accounts, but use a simple dice between games, 1-2 pick Z, 3-4 pick P, 5-6 pick T and so on. Of course, this removes the "random advantage" but in the long run makes more effective practice. Or even better, as people proposed, let's pressure blizzard to add ability to let the game decide but display the chosen race on the loading screen.
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Generally, when playing random, wether your as good as others, or not, you rely a lot on luck and other random factors. When a player faces a random player, he is forced to make a more general build, not one that works vs 1 specifics race.
So you have a far easier time being random, because you get these unintentional advantages, over others. I've met some random players who tell the race they get in the opening, but it's hard for other peoples to believe in this. But generally I don't like random players either, and I think why the rest thinks so as well, is due to these advantages they get, but not sure.
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I usually play random except when I'm trying to work on a specific matchup, because for me the game simply gets old and boring if I play with the same race all of the time. After 2 or 3 games of protoss, I'm ready to play as zerg or terran. But then I always get the bm from other players for being random. And I've noticed something really funny when I play random; people assume you are going to cheese or all in, no matter what. You can early expand and take 3 bases and get all upgraded and everything, and all the while the other player is still sitting at their one base building defense in order to defend the impending all-in that never is gonna get there. They fail to scout because they're positive that you will cheese them. And this happens with diamond/master's players. I can't get over how much you can get in someone's head just by your race selection, it's hilarious. What they don't realize is, I love my long games. I hugely prefer for a game to go to the 20 minute mark. But people have stereotyped random players to the point that very rarely do I get a real game out of it.
So I guess I have an option - I can either do as some suggest, and "roll a die" to select my race before each game, or I can continue playing random. The truth is, that just depends on the day - whether I'm being serious and competitive or if I just want to have fun. Because I've found that you can do almost anything and get away with it as a random player, that's honestly the most fun you can have in sc2. But it's true that it's not as competitive.
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On February 24 2012 00:48 StarBrift wrote: Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill. I would guess that if we actually did some poll every other race would be more disliked than random
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I just started playing random and I didnt even know it until a couple of days ago that all 3 of my races or almost on the same level. Im in diamond league and I can beat diamond players with all 3 races. The kicker is, I dont cheese. I dont even know how to cheese. I mean, I can 4 gate but I dont because its bad.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 woody60707 wrote: All this whining on TL. I thought this was the Blizzard forum for a sec.
I honestly don't get it. I would say the same thing to people who whine about Terran, Portoss, or Zerg being Imba. If it's so imba why don't you do it then? In this game you don't get to play the way you want, you have to play to the map and the race.
What I think the case is Random is such an rare race, that most people don't have a good build order in a vs Random game. The simple fix is to get a build order for when playing a random player!
EDIT: What is all this talk about playing a authentic game/standard game. Everything to a 6 drone rush to a late Mothership game is an authentic game. And I dislike this talk/idea of a "standard game". If it's a stupid idea but it works, it's not a stupid idea. I really do miss the days of BGH 5mins no rush -not
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Austria24417 Posts
PvR is indeed retarded. Try playing against random on tal'darim especially. Against zerg you have to ffe on that map, there's just no other way to play that without falling super behind. Against terran, you're ok on one base in the beginning and against protoss you die if you expand early on that map.
You also have to wall off. So basically you gamble with your first pylon already. If you put it in your natural setting up for a ffe and he spawns as protoss, you're dead. If you get lucky and scout a terran opponent without a delay, you might be able to pull off a nexus first (which is risky because if close spawns -> shorter rush distance). If you don't, you have to continue your ffe attempt (building the forge). If you now scout that he's terran, you're super vulnerable. You have to go nexus first or put your gateway in a damn awkward spot in your natural. Now if you put your pylon in your main, close to your entrance and he's terran, you're fine but vulnerable. If he's zerg, you're behind economically (talking about tal'darim here, 3 gate expand is pretty damn useless on this map because you will definitely be behind). Against toss you're at least not dead but vulnerable as well.
I can see the same happening on any map that's designed like taldarim. That's why I personally dislike playing against random. Also I ONLY get vR on taldarim so that's why I'm biased here. I feel like random players can get a super easy free win on that map if they only understand how hard I actually have to gamble / sacrifice things in order to survive at all.
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i know that when i played around with random for a bit people were more upset about the fact that me choosing random automatically put them at a disadvantage. I do think that picking random should just show the race at the start of the game or even the loading screen.
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whenever I get beat by a random I give big props. I seriously respect random players.
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- you can't refine your regular builds against random (which makes it a waste of time IMO since for most people ladder is all about refining your builds) - there's a high chance you get a build order loss vs. random - a lot of random players rely on the fact that they're random and do cheesy/greedy builds instead of relying on skill
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On February 24 2012 00:54 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:48 StarBrift wrote: Most random players rely on trickery and coin flipping to win games. That doesn't mean that every random player does it. But it explains why people dislike random players. Because they are trying to take shortcuts up the ladder by misrepresenting their actual skill. I would guess that if we actually did some poll every other race would be more disliked than random 
Lol it depends, maybe Terrans will say that they dislike vP more than vR (statistically of course, because they can get vRP, which is even worse for them :D), but as Protoss, I can tell you, playing vs Random is definitely the worse for most of us.
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On February 23 2012 23:53 fire_brand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:40 chestnutcc wrote: Basically what other people have said in the thread:
1. PvR when R turns out to be zerg is a bad spot for P. You can't FFE unless you send out a really early scout (pre pylon). If you gate expand, it has to be 3 gate because they will most likely try cheesing you. 10 pools are a nightmare with gate expands. If they don't cheese you they go hatch first and power up while you are still waiting for obs/phoenix/hallucination to confirm what they are doing because random players, are well, random.
2. Forces pylon scout at least, bad for other builds.
3. PvP is arbitrary enough without random players doing their thing.
4. PvT is unpredictable enough without random players doing their thing
There is a definite difference between offracing and playing random and imo offracers understand their offrace a lot better than random players understand that particular race. I disagree with this entirely. I've spawned P in RvR while my opponent has spawned Z. There is nothing wrong with 3GE, 2GE or even 1GE and nothing wrong with pylon scouting either. If he 10 pools against any of those builds you should be safe at home, and he'll have already taken a huge economic hit. Pvp you're going to be pylon scouting anyways unless you want to lose. I think PvT is fairly NOT random. It's incredibly standard, with set timings and builds and should be as easy to play at out as PvR(T) as PvT. I think most of this is just lazy people who don't wanna scout and just want the game wrapped up in a neat little package. I think the unpredictability of a vR matchup is exciting and will make you a better, more adaptable player. If you really don't want to play it out because apparently you're so far behind and you're going to lose anyway just leave. I don't when sc2 players got so spoiled.
Not sure whether you're a random player or a toss player, so will assume you're random because everything you say points to that.
1 gate fe auto loses to mass rallied lings. 3 gate expo sets you far behind hatch first or any greedy play. Nobody does a 2 gate expand. Eco 10 pool will win against 1 gate and will severely delay 3 gate expo. The point is that I would like to do FFE vs zerg, but the mere act of choosing random forces me down a build path due to no action on the part of the opponent.
There is no need to actually pylon scout in PvP. The only thing you want to look for is proxy gate and by adjusting your build order and scout pattern you can prepare for this too.
PvT with 1 base play is v arbitrary from the terran side. There is nothing lazy about delayed scouts, its a calculated move to take an economic edge.
The adaptability you learn in a PvR is nothing greater than oh hes going proxy double starport and making a stargate, whereas against a good solid terran, it will be more along the lines of oh, he double dropped me and stimmed into my third, I've never really dealt with this before, let me learn how to deal with it i.e. the adaptability in PvR is mostly of the hard counter variety: they will do some weird thing, you just do the hard counter, whereas in an actual match up it is variations of standard play that you may be aware of, but weak against, that you have to adapt to.
Time on the ladder is a precious resource. I have no issue with standard cheeses or all ins, these are necessary to practice against. Against randoms, you don't really know which one to expect.
For example, a forge is the strongest defense against early pools. This comes automatically with the FFE, but a random's early pool just becomes stronger because I cannot FFE. This is in no part due to their skill or execution, but merely due to the fact that I had to choose a different build to account for the random. I learn nothing from this as regards defending early pools with the FFE against main racing zergs, which is the situation one normally faces an early pool.
In PvP, again, the early scout may slow down my early pressure by a zealot or a stalker, and let him defend some greedy tech play. Not the situation in a standard PvP with a delayed scout. It may not sound like a big deal, but PvPs can be won and lost by 1-2 probes.
In PvT, the chance of the random going bio is slim. I have actually only faced 1 random who told me his race and played standard bio, and did it v well. This however, may be the only time PvR with R as terran is beneficial since it will likely be a 1/1/1 variant and those things are weird enough that you need all the practice you can.
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Im so glad I played random. Cannon rush survivability skyrocketed. Its funny how people cry cheeser at Randoms when in reality - they are the ones who CR, 6 pool, proxy rax in response. Great for learning to hold rushes and free wins.
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The only random player i like are the one who tell you what race they have after the game start. The one who refuse to tell it use the random factor as an advantage and i don't like that.
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On February 23 2012 22:54 VelJa wrote:Captain Obvious ! Here is too a funny fact : there is no random progamers! Exept a CodeS Korean i believe, long time ago who pick a race now. Aww i don't remember the nick ...
I think it was Ginnea Pig
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On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly..
Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there).
Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game.
However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies.
Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly.
On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing.
No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course).
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Noocta - I agree. Its like how when you ask someone what build theyre going and they dont tell you. Imean come on dont you think I'm entitled to that information. Geez.
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No excuse form BM, but I personally have a problem not knowing that my opponent is at the start. If the system revealed what race they were it would be good, but the problem is that random players have a decent advantage at the start forcing all races to open with safe builds. While they can either cheese or play ultra greedy just cause they played random. That's my opinion. I do not respect anyone that plays random but it is no excuse for bm. Here is an example.
I want to ffe vs zerg. But he is random. I have to choose to guess if he is zerg or not cause if I make my pylon in the ffe position and he is T or P, I auto lose the game. But if I play safe and he is Zerg, I now am forced into a 1 base opening. It's just really stupid in my opinion.
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As a random player that always plays standard and always tells the race when my opponent asks I find this thread hilarious. Random players always cheese? I rarely get cheesed when I'm playing RvR. It's funny though because most race pickers seems to be doing this:
On February 24 2012 00:50 LuckyFool wrote: My solution to random players is to allin the shit out of them.
And then they bm me for some reason. I swear, half of my games vs someone non random is an allin. And honestly, being random is not a "big advantage" as my put it, you can still go hatch first vs random, 1 rax FE or open fact/port vs random and protoss players just need to learn how to play 3 gate expand and they are good to go. Just send a slightly earlier scout and you will be slightly behind but it's absolutely not game changing.
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On February 23 2012 23:44 Wroshe wrote:Out of curiosity I would like to ask you all the following. Poll: Should the option of picking random be removed?Yes (43) 41% No (37) 36% No (I play Random) (23) 22% Yes (I play Random) (1) 1% 104 total votes Your vote: Should the option of picking random be removed? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Yes (I play Random) (Vote): No (I play Random)
I think I would prefer if random told you there race at the loading screen instead of saying random
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It's really hard for Protoss, since our BOs start so early. Honestly, if it turns out to be a Zerg, I feel like I might as well gg out since I couldn't FFE.
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Everyone QQing about how you dont know what race Random is till you scout.
1. Just scout and play safe, you're supposed to anyways. 2. Remember, the Random doesn't know what their race is until the game starts. You knew all along you cheater. 3. You learn 3 matchups. Random learns 9 matchups. 200% more matchups.
Edit: Wrong Number - 6 changed to 9
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Well i open more or less the same way no matter what race, the only differences i do is after my scout probe have seen what it is.
So no matter what race or random race i play i scout, and i have also started to learn(and remember) to scout mid/late game :-)
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Well, I play random and I tell my race if the opponent asks for it. I think that they hate random players who don't tell their race because they have a disadvantage at start (they don't understand that the disadvantage is largely balanced by the fact we play less the race so we aren't as good).
On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved 
You won't ger random portraits if you do that...
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Austria24417 Posts
It's not that I can't play one base --> standard game vs zerg, it's no problem at all for me as protoss. But just the fact that tal'darim is impossible to win against an intelligent random player is a pain. I'm fine playing against random on any other map though, If he spawns as terran and sees that my scout is late he should just marine scv all in and he will win. If he spawns as zerg he can go hatch first NO problem at all, leaving me super behind and I should be forced to all in at that point. Now if you see a protoss all in coming, it can be DT's, or some kind of 4 gate. You can stop all of that easily if you know it's coming. If he spawns as protoss, 4 gate. I'm already vulnerable because my gateway is exposed (at the very best) and really, you't do anything else on taldarim anyway so he's just gonna have an advantage that will kill me.
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The thing about Random in solo is that its really hard to be good at. So most players will know the 1 or 2 base all ins, and cheese builds. Random however could be the most powerful "race" to play because your opponet has to prepare for anything lol
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Just prepare a build safe VS random ? Like wall in base like Adelscott vs Z ? and scout at 9 after pylon ?
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Not all of us are so unstable that we just straight up all in at the drop of a hat. I like to toy with my food a little before I devour it. ^,,^
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The largest reason i hate random players on ladder is that the fact is that they will NOT be as good as you in a straigh up game, due them getting less practice in each MU and the hardship of practicing so many diffrent BO's. So they will 90% do some form of cheesy allin on you. Most of the time i just 9 drone scout and play abit more defensive and its a free win. This at a mid/high masters level.
The second reason i hate random people is that i cant do my normal BO vs a specific race on some maps even if i 9 drone scout, unless i get lucky and scout him first.
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On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course).
I also say "gl hf <race>" and people believe me often enough. I've had opponents go FFE when I spawn zerg random zerg and tell them. However, I will agree that some people are skeptical. Some will tell me, "can I trust you?" lol. I guess some random players must be dishonest about that, because sometimes, after my opponent scouts me, they say something like "wow, an honest random player. That never happens" or something like that. However, if I tell my opponent my race and they don't respond at all, usually I figure it's someone who hates on random players - and then I get ready to defend a cheese. More often than not, it's the random player who gets cheesed by the non random, not the other way around. I always laugh when I tell a zerg I'm terran and then they 6 pool me but I"m walled because... well, I'm terran. And I know they're zerg. And I know they were bm. Amazing how putting 2 and 2 together gives you free wins as a random player. I do think people should practice that matchup more, or at least have a generic build they can use vs. random. A lot of the skill in sc2 is being able to make your build fir the situation. Playing as random doesn't give me free build order wins unless my opponent decides to make that happen. It shows if you're a good sc2 player or not if you can deal with random players appropriately.
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On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity.
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What? I was convinced everyone loved Randoms. At least in serious gamers.
In ladder I guess they are cheesy?
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It's universally understood that in order to be placed into a certain league as Random, either:
1) The Random user plays standard games and thus must be in a lower league than he would be playing one specific race (for obvious logical reasons; 1/3 the play time in each race is bound to cause a decrease in respective skill level for each race compared to sticking to just one.) or 2) The Random user is at the level he is at because the decrease in individual race proficiency is made up for through use of more "gimmicky" or "non-standard" strategies, bridging the gap between the straightforward skill levels of him and his opponents.
More often than not, this second case is assumed by default, for whatever reason. It is in the communal (if flawed, partially or substantially) psyche that if one seriously plays SC2 in an attempt to better his skill and do well in play, he would choose one race and work on it continually. After all, how many notable pros play Random? Only 1 in the top 200 on TLPD. DemonSheep The Average-SC2-Joe, in his ignorance and disregard for intelligent cognition, will thus naturally frown upon the "less skillful", "less serious" Random player. Nothing to be done about it.
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Rizell I find that offensive and horribly inaccurate. In my experience, people assume they are better at the race so they just cheese in mirrors or as I said before, they just cheese because they dont know what race you are. It works both ways. We have to put more effort into improving. I could call main racers lazy goodfornothings that don't practice. But I don't because I'm nice and accepting. Why can't us randoms just be your friend ? : 3
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I have yet to come across a random player that doesnt 6 pool, marine scv all in or proxy 2 gate.....They apparantly dont believe in a game longer then 7 minutes. Its easy to defend of course but its just boring
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A very high portion of my vR games ends up being, holding an allin/cheese, so yeah, that's my reason for disliking it. I however understand Z/P pretty well, since I feel their openings are more different depending on race than terran(I mean I have 3 BOs that work decently vs all races), so them not liking it due to not knowing how to open is understandable in the least. I mean for zerg, if the opponent is terran, you've likely gone pool or gas pool, which is far from ideal, and well for toss if he's zerg, you're kinda fucked.
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On February 24 2012 01:14 Rizell wrote: The largest reason i hate random players on ladder is that the fact is that they will NOT be as good as you in a straigh up game, due them getting less practice in each MU and the hardship of practicing so many diffrent BO's. So they will 90% do some form of cheesy allin on you. Most of the time i just 9 drone scout and play abit more defensive and its a free win. This at a mid/high masters level.
The second reason i hate random people is that i cant do my normal BO vs a specific race on some maps even if i 9 drone scout, unless i get lucky and scout him first. This is a bad generalization. Random player who does not cheese (and there are a lot of those) will actually be as good as you with all 3 races due to the fact how laddering system works (trying to keep you at 50% WR).
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I can't make my usual openings, I have to scout earlier. < That's why I hate playing against random.
I love when randoms get Z though, they usually don't know what they're doing in ZvZ.
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The reason people don't like random players is because over 90% of them will cheese or all-in no matter what race they get which is generally okay. The problem here is that you can't do a standard opening capable of dealing with every cheese possible from all the races so playing random is just an unfair advantage overall if you are going to do a really early game cheese. Also these random players love to point out they can play all 3 races... I'm not sure 6pool, proxy 2rax, and proxy 2gate counts as knowing how to play all 3 races but whatever floats their boat.
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Buzerio you should have the answer in the poll say Yes (I do play random) Yes (I dont play random) etc. Just so we can see how everyone voting yes is not random.
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On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
While I don't BM random players, this is very much how I feel. I'm forced into 1 gate FE vs zerg with an exposed gateway if they're protoss, and exposed cybercore if I don't scout them in time. It's very frustrating, because most random players choose the optimal opener for their race vs P followed by an all-in or cheese which is harder to defend when you don't open standard. Because of these things, I simply leave the game when faced with a random player. I'm sure there is a proper mindset to about this with, probably playing the numbers hoping to face T or P 2/3 of the time and opening optimally against them. Insta-loss against a Z that makes a few units doesn't sound very appealing though.
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As I have very different openings against the three races, I consider choosing Random cheese. It does not matter what strategy the opponent goes, just by being random he has an advantage of a whole skilllevel. And most Random player know how to exploit that. On the other hand, once you reached the lategame, its almost a free win, as random players seem to have little experience there.
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Hey guys I got cheesed by a protoss once we should remove that race. OP as hell anyways. :D
Edit: Just realized - 100% of Cannon Rushers are protoss. This is statistic mind-blowing. Protoss should be nerfed out of the game immediately.
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I've always found random players easy to deal with as Zerg. Just 14 pool if you can't scout them before that. Then you hold all early cheeses and can put down a hatch as soon as you scout. If close air pos on shattered or metal it's even more lols.
My experience with random cheese is also about 50/50 so I don't discriminate and just play straight-up. I think the QQ needs to stop, playing random isn't easy. Although playing protoss vs random does seem to be a bit of an issue.
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Probably because they are not as good in long macro games since they never play one race all that much so they never really improve it. Cheese on the other hand is very easy to pull off with all races. It is true though, anytime I am against a random I am always extra dilligent with my scouting since I am expecting an all-in.
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As a random player, I don't really get hate that often, I don't ever cheese unless I'm playing right before class or about to go out somewhere ;D. If someone asks me what race I am, I'll tell them, but if they don't wanna know that's fine with me; other Rs that I've played also don't mind telling me their race and they're always honest (maybe it's just an RvR thing, I dunno ).
The hate is unwarranted, do I hate Protoss players for playing Protoss? No, so hating on Random is kinda silly (1/3 chance of getting Z D: )
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Randoms cheese a lot more than people who pick a race. Thus people associate random with cheese and begin hating the randoms.
At least this is the impression I get from my own experience.
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On February 24 2012 01:14 Rizell wrote: The largest reason i hate random players on ladder is that the fact is that they will NOT be as good as you in a straigh up game, due them getting less practice in each MU and the hardship of practicing so many diffrent BO's. So they will 90% do some form of cheesy allin on you. Most of the time i just 9 drone scout and play abit more defensive and its a free win. This at a mid/high masters level.
The second reason i hate random people is that i cant do my normal BO vs a specific race on some maps even if i 9 drone scout, unless i get lucky and scout him first. Well why the bloody hell aren't you using that knowledge against the random player then? If you already know they will do some "cheesy allin", then you are already 80% on your way to victory, since the whole point of cheese is surprise, and you already know what all random players do, don't you?
Alterrnatively, you might want to consider that you have to change your play to take into account what the other guy is doing. It's not a hard concept to grasp, it's really common in strategy games, which you are supposedly a fan of. So try this on for size:
1. Stop complaining you can't do what you've decided you want to do before starting the game. 2. Embrace the strategy element of a strategy game and realise you are put in a situation where you are supposed to use your brain. This is your chance to really shine, don't waste it. 3. If all else fails, play random and get into the top 10 players in the world, since everybody who wants to actually win tournaments hasn't figured out your brilliant strategical analysis above and will be at a MAJOR dissadvantage.
I'll be rooting for you as random, I'm sure you'll steam roll everyone.
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On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). You also conveninently decided to ignore the incomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
Because randoms on ladder play for fun and don't mind (and I guess they love it, even) the coin-flippy side of playing Random. Pro-gamers have their livelihood on the line. You can't gamble on random and expect to always be at an advantage at the start of the game, but you most likely will be less experienced in a longer game. In this a risk worth taking? For random ladderers, yeah, sure, they just want to cheese some ladder points and have fun playing SC2. For pros? They play for money, but it's not the fucking casino.
For example, RvT puts you not in that much of a good position, so a pro would not want to play random vs a strong Terran. Random ZvP is a blast, however, and would probably yield a very high winrate at pro level.
Random is strong man, it's no use denying it. If you make MMA, DRG and MC play on a random account, this account will be strictly stronger and more fearsome than any of these players individually on their main race account.
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On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity.
If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount.
As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran.
I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly.
The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue.
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i dont know how it works for terran and zerg players, but these are my thoughts as a toss player
You will always start off behind as a random player. ALWAYS. There isnt any build order tht you can do vs all 3 races, that doesnt put you massively behind in some way. You have to pylon near your ramp in case you vs zerg. You cant pylon on the low ground to FFE though, incase its NOT zerg. You cant chrono too many probes and build your gate late incase youre vs toss and they just get WG quicker then you do. Against terran and toss its not too bad, as you can just build backwards from your ramp. But its zerg that youre just massively behind.
I do 1 of 2 things when i vs random players. If its a map like shakuras or metal/shattered where i can proxy close to them without scouting then i just 2 gate proxy. If its a map like TDA or entombed ill just quit straight away, but not say anything.
I think with random players, when the loading screen comes on it should say Random (*insert race here*) or it shouldnt reveal your race to them, and show you as random or just ?????? opr something having a scouting lead before the game even starts is so imba
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On February 24 2012 01:21 SuperYo1000 wrote: I have yet to come across a random player that doesnt 6 pool, marine scv all in or proxy 2 gate.....They apparantly dont believe in a game longer then 7 minutes. Its easy to defend of course but its just boring I play 2-5 games a week and even I meet more random players that do not cheese. So either you do not actually play or are very unlucky or random players in your league are just strange.
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I play random and i end up GETTING cheesed, which is why i dont 1v1 ladder much anymore. Whenever people ask me what race i am, i just tell them what race i randomed. Diamond league.
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they are hated because a 9 supply scout and a safe build are impossible to do......
this thread is pure bananas
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I'm not a fan of playing vs random as toss, when they get Z. As I can't really FFE safely without knowing what race they are. It's pretty annoying when I scout them last and they get down a 15 hatch without a block too and I'm 12gate ~_~
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On February 24 2012 01:31 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:21 SuperYo1000 wrote: I have yet to come across a random player that doesnt 6 pool, marine scv all in or proxy 2 gate.....They apparantly dont believe in a game longer then 7 minutes. Its easy to defend of course but its just boring I play 2-5 games a week and even I meet more random players that do not cheese. So either you do not actually play or are very unlucky or random players in your league are just strange.
I guarantee that he's one of those people who rolls over and dies to the most standard pressure in the book and then rages about being "cheesed."
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I dislike playing against random players because I have never had a good game versus one yet. Either they do some kind of cheesy play which I really dislike playing against or they try to play standard but do a poor job of it. I feel like it just is bad practice for me either way.
Dont get why people would BM random players though, that just seems weird to me.
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On February 23 2012 22:51 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:49 Superouman wrote: They are jealous because they can only play with one race. I'd take it as a compliment. Not very impressive when you are just very mediocre at all races instead of actually good with one, which is the case with most randoms.
Hmm I think someone mad . What if you encounter a random who usually takes it to the lategame (such as myself)?
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I use to get 6-pooled by random players all the time...
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On February 24 2012 01:30 ThatGuy89 wrote: i dont know how it works for terran and zerg players, but these are my thoughts as a toss player
You will always start off behind as a random player. ALWAYS. There isnt any build order tht you can do vs all 3 races, that doesnt put you massively behind in some way. You have to pylon near your ramp in case you vs zerg. You cant pylon on the low ground to FFE though, incase its NOT zerg. You cant chrono too many probes and build your gate late incase youre vs toss and they just get WG quicker then you do. Against terran and toss its not too bad, as you can just build backwards from your ramp. But its zerg that youre just massively behind.
I do 1 of 2 things when i vs random players. If its a map like shakuras or metal/shattered where i can proxy close to them without scouting then i just 2 gate proxy. If its a map like TDA or entombed ill just quit straight away, but not say anything.
I think with random players, when the loading screen comes on it should say Random (*insert race here*) or it shouldnt reveal your race to them, and show you as random or just ?????? opr something having a scouting lead before the game even starts is so imba
This pretty much sums up my thoughts, I 12gate against protoss to shave the ~5+ seconds from warpgate and my chrono on probes finishes during production of the 14'th probe, yet vs terran i will 13 gate and chrono often to like 20 supply which is a massive difference in opening economy that you cannot do vs protoss.
Vs zerg, well, the vast majority of games are FFE these days, and simply put if you gateway expand on a map like Taldarim Altar vs zerg you have hit a build order loss.
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Because the rules of the game change completely vs Random... a random player can optimize his build to the utmost against his opponent because he starts the game with more information.
Think of it this way, a Random player rolls Terran on Shakuras vs Protoss and instantly proxy 2 raxes or 3 raxes. Assume we're on EU and playing against a player who plays a generally White-ra-esque style.
The Protoss will have had to play 12 gate. Period. To not die vs 4 gate/6 pool the 12 gate will be placed at his ramp. Terran has instant advantage of being able to focus down the buildings that are only placed at the front because of possible ling run-by... MEANING, the Protoss has less time to prepare and has his building in a vulnerable position because if he didn't, he'd be unsafe against certain attacks.
Random just give an unfair info advantage unless both players are playing random, and then there will be some disgusting level of build order wins if either player wants to play risky.
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On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue.
you can't just roll a dice unless you have 3 copies of the game. because of b.net 0.2, if you don't wanna mess up your mmr, the only why of playing the full game and not just 1/3 of the game is by playing random. if you could have multiple accounts almost noone would play random i guess
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On February 24 2012 01:20 TheTurk wrote:It's universally understood that in order to be placed into a certain league as Random, either: 1) The Random user plays standard games and thus must be in a lower league than he would be playing one specific race (for obvious logical reasons; 1/3 the play time in each race is bound to cause a decrease in respective skill level for each race compared to sticking to just one.) or 2) The Random user is at the level he is at because the decrease in individual race proficiency is made up for through use of more "gimmicky" or "non-standard" strategies, bridging the gap between the straightforward skill levels of him and his opponents. More often than not, this second case is assumed by default, for whatever reason. It is in the communal (if flawed, partially or substantially) psyche that if one seriously plays SC2 in an attempt to better his skill and do well in play, he would choose one race and work on it continually. After all, how many notable pros play Random? Only 1 in the top 200 on TLPD. DemonSheepThe Average-SC2-Joe, in his ignorance and disregard for intelligent cognition, will thus naturally frown upon the "less skillful", "less serious" Random player. Nothing to be done about it.
I completely disagree with you. Not only are both of your reasons NOT "universally understood", but they are both incorrect when using them to judge the skill of a random player. Concerning reason #1, when I take a break from random and just choose my race for a few games, I still go at least 50/50 in all of my matchups. The only matchup I'm not 100% confident in my ability to play is zvz, and that's because the matchup is broken anyway. And yet I still pull out some good wins with it. Regarding reason #2, the only reason a random player might use gimmicky or non-standard strategies is because the player we're playing against often does something totally unintelligent as a result of playing a random player. So, naturally, we have to adapt. The only reason pros don't play random is because, at their level, you have to be PERFECT to win games. In diamond and masters, or anything below that, you can get by with just being good at the game and out-maneuvering your opponent. I am thoroughly convinced that, if I could choose to stop playing random (which I would never do because it simply wouldn't be fun), I would be at least one level higher on the ladder than I am.
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Its because they cant go into the game and know what the game plan is... also most randoms if they have a weak race they just cheese... So this is why. When I play random I tell them what race I am right at the start so there is no confusion at all.. :D
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On February 24 2012 01:47 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. you can't just roll a dice unless you have 3 copies of the game. because of b.net 0.2, if you don't wanna mess up your mmr, the only why of playing the full game and not just 1/3 of the game is by playing random. if you could have multiple accounts almost noone would play random i guess
What?
EDIT: Upon rereading, it seems you're of the persuasion that you have an individual MMR for each race. This is not true. If I play on my high diamond MMR Zerg account and I select Protoss, I'm gonna get matched against the same person I would've if I had chosen Zerg. Race isn't taken into account for matchmaking.
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I don´t BM or leave the game, but I think "Oh shit!" every time I get a random player. The worst part is when you scout the last possible base (and get a 6pool).
For curiosity, in big tournaments you can play as random?
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On February 24 2012 01:30 ThatGuy89 wrote:
I do 1 of 2 things when i vs random players. If its a map like shakuras or metal/shattered where i can proxy close to them without scouting then i just 2 gate proxy. If its a map like TDA or entombed ill just quit straight away, but not say anything.
Oh irony. How I love your sweet beautiful refrains.
Edit: Gave credit where due
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Random players are usually pretty cheesy, and when they're not cheesing you they are going cc first.
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I have recently switched to random from Protoss, i enjoy learning all 3 races and i am relatively decent at all 3. But when i do play Protoss and i get a random player it is easy to do a basic "safe build" that is good against all 3 races and that is a 3 gate expand. I scout at 9 pylon so if i scout a Protoss, i'll drop a Robo instead of expand. Easy as can be.
Every race has a "safe build" against any other race
Protoss: 3 gate expand Terran: 2 rack expand Zerg: 12 pool 12 gas 15 expand
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On February 24 2012 01:29 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). You also conveninently decided to ignore the incomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate? Because randoms on ladder play for fun and don't mind (and I guess they love it, even) the coin-flippy side of playing Random. Pro-gamers have their livelihood on the line. You can't gamble on random and expect to always be at an advantage at the start of the game, but you most likely will be less experienced in a longer game. In this a risk worth taking? For random ladderers, yeah, sure, they just want to cheese some ladder points and have fun playing SC2. For pros? They play for money, but it's not the fucking casino. For example, RvT puts you not in that much of a good position, so a pro would not want to play random vs a strong Terran. Random ZvP is a blast, however, and would probably yield a very high winrate at pro level. You seem to be agreeing with me that playing random is actually a big disadvantage if you want to win. If you agree to that, then the tens of posts in this thread about the unfair advantages of randoms are incorrect, yes?
RvT is harder than RvP - ok, that's probably correct. Overall however, the reason why players don't choose random in tournaments is because it will decrease their chances to win than if they had picked a race.
Random is strong man, it's no use denying it. If you make MMA, DRG and MC play on a random account, this account will be strictly stronger and more fearsome than any of these players individually on their main race account.
This statement is demonstrably false. What is stopping them from choosing random? Are you saying they are not motivated enough to be "stronger and more fearsome "? How come no player of their caliber has chosen random and been consistently successful? If what you said were true, the top tier of the game would look a lot different than it does. Randoms are almost nowhere to be seen in the pro world.
I suspect the reason random is perceived as strong is because none of the big, casted games are vs randoms. Everyone can copy a progamer's extremenly well refined PvZ build, but when it comes to PvR everyone is at a loss, since there are no tournament finals of PvR, so who can you copy? Pros have already figured out how to exploit the inherent weakness of random players, which is the reason randoms don't go anywhere in serious competitions.
How many players here discovered for themselves the optimal build they are using in PvZ? I would say none, pretty much everyone copies big players. I'm sorry randoms are too weak to play vs the best players in the world, and I'm sorry that puts you in a position of having to work at creating a proper build for yourself, but you, racepicker, still have the advantage vs the random you are playing.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On February 24 2012 01:48 SeizeTheDay wrote: Its because they cant go into the game and know what the game plan is... also most randoms if they have a weak race they just cheese... So this is why. When I play random I tell them what race I am right at the start so there is no confusion at all.. :D
Ive lost 4 games and counting to randoms lieing about their race and having a FFE pylon placed or not placed in an inappropriate matchup
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When I use to ladder as Random, I rarely ever cheesed.
On the other hand, like 75% of the Zergs I encountered always 6 pool'ed, including GMs.
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As toss I don't like playing against random because I have to use a shitty opener (12-13 gateway with a pylon scout). I usually just proxy 2 gate. Not really a reason to talk shit to somebody though, Random is a lot of fun to play
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you can't just roll a dice unless you have 3 copies of the game. because of b.net 0.2, if you don't wanna mess up your mmr, the only why of playing the full game and not just 1/3 of the game is by playing random. if you could have multiple accounts almost noone would play random i guess
I randomed in wc3 as well, and you could have as many accounts as you liked in that game. To paraphrase someone else on the first page : It's the internet, people are gonna bm
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On February 24 2012 01:47 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. you can't just roll a dice unless you have 3 copies of the game. because of b.net 0.2, if you don't wanna mess up your mmr, the only why of playing the full game and not just 1/3 of the game is by playing random. if you could have multiple accounts almost noone would play random i guess
This. If I could split my account into 3, I'd do it. But buying 2 more accounts is just not worth it. So I just go with random. If my opponent asks for my race nicely, I'll tell them.
I have to say though, I kinda like the feeling of going into a match and not knowing which race I'll end up with too. It adds a little bit to easing the repetitive laddering process.
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On February 23 2012 22:49 Deagle wrote: The problem it's that most of randoms cheeses. I also have negative opinion about them, because they tend not to play long games.
3/5 times a random will cheese when i ladder, so when i see random it automatically makes me go into anti-cheese mode.
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As a P player I really dislike playing against random, even once you discover your opponents race its still PvR not PvP/PvZ/PvT, especially true if it turns out to be PvZ. Most random players are predisposed to cheese or all in, its not true of 100% of random players but I think its safe to say the its true of many. Random players while they can play all races will never play a real game of sc2 in the current metagame, PvR is its own silly metagame, where alot of normal rules get broken.
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"If I don't scout and you cheese me, I lose" Seems to be a theme here. I think playing against random is good because it forces you to scout and play safe. Two very important things to work on in order to imrove.
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This thread is hilarious. People will complain about everything instead of doing the right thing (being a man).
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I'm not playing real games against opponents who can't pick real race but take unfair information advantage early and most of time by my experience use it for cheesing. I'm 6pooling every random. Race of the random player should be showed at the start of the game so both players are equal.
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Its actually incredibly stupid for a random player to be cheesy, why u ask? its simple, what does any good player do vrs a random player, scouts early and well. So all the cheeses you do because your opponent is taking risks because he knows your race are out. Any sorta of proxi gateway push is retarted because anyone good will 9 scout. The correct movmeent for a random player is to be abusive in his macro because he can. Want to hatch first vrs protoss? go ahead they probably have a gate in their main. want to proxi 2 gate? dont because terran will wall and zerg will 9 scout and pool first to counter ur abusive build. SO on the contrary to whatever is saying its actually really stupid for a random player to cheese because thats exactly what ur opponent is expecting.
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NemEU - Is it not also true that many toss cannon rush? Toss should be removed right? Also many zerg six-pool. Gee zerg should also be removed. And those darn terrans. Many of them proxy rax. Whats with that? Get Terran out. Oops no race left.
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Because random player are usually awful and have 1 abusive allin for each matchup. And the allins are more likely to work because the opponent doesn't know if he needs to wall off or not, so if you wall off and opponent is 4gating -> gg. You dont wall off and opponent is a zerg and goes for a 8pool -> gg.
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On February 24 2012 02:03 Ogww wrote: I'm not playing real games against opponents who can't pick real race but take unfair information advantage early and most of time by my experience use it for cheesing. I'm 6pooling every random. Race of the random player should be showed at the start of the game so both players are equal.
Lol you guys know you're posting this publicly right? Lmao
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On February 23 2012 22:50 Marinechan wrote: When people choose random, their opponent assumes that they're going to cheese.
I guess that's it, haha!
Yeah jealous....
eh no dude, most randoms are just cheesing or playing easy to perform builds, but loose most of the games that go for like over 15 minutes. And if I check the match history of random players on my diamond level, there are so many 6 Pools, 2 base Allins... I would never BM a random player, but I scout very early and play exceptionally safe and scout more than usual and win most of the games if I can defend the cheese. Especially in Mirror matches I feel like I cant loose....
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The reason I dislike playing random players is because you have to scout earlier, and can't really plan what build you're going to do until you scout them - which can be really annoying on some maps, i.e Entombed Valley.
This is particularly annoying PvZ where if you FFE, you have to place the 9 pylon in you natural as opposed to your main.
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Because every time I wall off they roll terran and every time I don't they roll zerg. Also I have pretty specific BO's against each race and its a pain in the ass to scout on 9, and have to do a more generic BO as well as scout for cheese,
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On February 23 2012 22:55 Teoita wrote: Because random doesn't show the race at start. As a protoss player, that's annoying as hell.
This.
As a protoss more so than most other races, the openings are very specific, theres no real middle of the road opening except the 1 gate expo, but against zerg youre kind of behind, even more so if you 12 gate instead of 13 gate (12 gate incase its PvP)
Many people want to practice or have an opening specific to each race. Random kinda throws it off i guess. IDK abt the abuse but tahts why i hate playing vs random.
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On February 24 2012 01:35 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 01:21 SuperYo1000 wrote: I have yet to come across a random player that doesnt 6 pool, marine scv all in or proxy 2 gate.....They apparantly dont believe in a game longer then 7 minutes. Its easy to defend of course but its just boring I play 2-5 games a week and even I meet more random players that do not cheese. So either you do not actually play or are very unlucky or random players in your league are just strange. I guarantee that he's one of those people who rolls over and dies to the most standard pressure in the book and then rages about being "cheesed."
Those randoms are doing it wrong anyway. 6 Rax Bunker rush is better. Wait till you come across that.
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On February 24 2012 02:05 idonthinksobro wrote: Because random player are usually awful and have 1 abusive allin for each matchup. And the allins are more likely to work because the opponent doesn't know if he needs to wall off or not, so if you wall off and opponent is 4gating -> gg. You dont wall off and opponent is a zerg and goes for a 8pool -> gg.
If you don't scout ---> GG
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On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed. You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity.
I 9-pylon scout every game, every matchup; and on large maps if I don't find immediately then I tend to 13-gateway scout as well in the opposite direction. How much more scouting do you propose?
Your argument of "but they have to play all different races so its HARD" is complete rubbish. Regardless of whether or not that it is more difficult to do the system is dynamic. Therefore regardless of how good or bad they are as a random player they will be matched up appropriately. Therefore their average ability across their three races will be comparable to your skill level on one race. It will NOT show in a match-up because the matchmaking system doesn't work like that. By definition the person playing against you is a similar skill level; they are approximately as good as you are, regardless of any lack of "experience" with a particular race.
To illustrate: MMA is one of the best Terrans in the world. Lets say hypothetically MMA has NEVER played as Zerg. Ever. I don't know if this is true or not (I doubt it), but for the purposes of this example lets just say he's never played as Zerg. Now say MMA plays a game against me. Him as Zerg, me as Protoss. I've got a couple of hundred games experience as Protoss (I know, I know, I should play more). He has none as Zerg (in this example). What happens? I'd put money on him absolutely destroying me. Why doesn't my experience with Protoss win over his with Zerg? Simple: he's a much, much better player and he doesn't need any knowledge of Zerg beyond the absolute basics of "use injects, build stuff from larva at hatcheries, drones turn into buildings". And I'd guess that he could do the same to any player from Bronze to Mid-Masters regardless of how much experience they have with their race to his complete lack of experience with Zerg.
That said you don't even have to go to extreme examples like a pro vs a random scrub like me. You can even see it between leagues. A Masters player playing a Gold player on an off-race will still probably win. A Platinum player playing a Bronze player on an off-race will similarly probably win. Thats not because they're suddenly good at the race, its because their fundamentals don't suck as much as those of the people they're playing against.
Experience with a race means little when compared to skill and experience with the game generally. At the lower levels of the game experience with a race means basically nothing because everyone screws up so much and so badly. I random in 4v4s ("for the lulz") and no, my understanding of Zerg and Terran aren't as good as that of my understanding of Protoss. But I sure as hell don't blame a lack of experience with Zerg and Terran for any losses...its just because I suck at the game and my general mechanics and macro need to improve. I actually tend to win a lot in 4v4s. But again thats not because I'm amazing at any race I get given, its because my opponents suck even more than I do. Thats just the way it is at sub-high masters level, everyone's basic mechanics and macro suck.
And actually this is all directly relevant to your question: why doesn't this happen at the highest level? Because at the highest levels this kind of experience DOES matter. When you have people whose macro and mechanics are pro-level then every little advantage counts. And having played 15,000 games as a Terran at that level means you're going to be much better with Terran than the other races when you've got the basics figured out.
THATS why basically no pros play random. At the very highest levels knowing your race inside and out is a bigger edge than the psychological advantage of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as. However thats only valid at the very, very highest level. When you're talking about ladder, more specifically ladder at a Bronze to Mid-Masters level, experience with a race doesn't matter at all. If it did then people race switching should fall far further than they do when they switch. Your experience with your race means basically nothing at low levels. Therefore the lack of information is the bigger advantage because everyone, including you, suck at the game. Amongst pros there are numerous ways for them to gain an advantage and some advantages are worth more than others...because they have already got all of the basics down (almost?) perfectly. However the trick to winning on most of the ladder is to suck slightly less at the fundamental basics of this game than other people.
In essence its down to the difference between sub-GM league play and actual professional play. One involves not sucking quite so bad as your opponent and the other involves actually out-thinking and out-playing them.
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This is one of those posts that I feel should come with about 6 or 8 troll faces in the OP.
"Ahehehehe.. why would people be annoyed when my race is a secret? Perhaps the thinktank at TeamLiquid will know....."
Are you dumb or something? Think about it.
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On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players.
Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it.
You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone.
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i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.
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Damn I haven't played Sc2 in quite a while, but reading all the butthurt comments about random players makes me wanna start again. 
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On February 24 2012 02:06 Jedclark wrote: The reason I dislike playing random players is because you have to scout earlier, and can't really plan what build you're going to do until you scout them - which can be really annoying on some maps, i.e Entombed Valley.
This is particularly annoying PvZ where if you FFE, you have to place the 9 pylon in you natural as opposed to your main.
Yeah man hate that when you gotta scout and stuff. So annoying. Like - god at least allow me to get away with awful play. Its only fair.
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At masters lvl randoms dont cheese any more then any pick their race person, but I cheese them alot more (also it sucks to not be able to practice your current build order of choice but basically forced to 1rax FE, etc. if you wanna play serious)
I am happy when randoms tell me their race, never had anyone lie about it, I would probably be amused depending how on tilt i was at that time.
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i don't hate random players..i respect them instead
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On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.
Dont want to worry about the other player? Maybe should play team games or Monobattles.
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On February 24 2012 02:07 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed. You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. I 9-pylon scout every game, every matchup; and on large maps if I don't find immediately then I tend to 13-gateway scout as well in the opposite direction. How much more scouting do you propose? Your argument of "but they have to play all different races so its HARD" is complete rubbish. Regardless of whether or not that it is more difficult to do the system is dynamic. Therefore regardless of how good or bad they are as a random player they will be matched up appropriately. Therefore their average ability across their three races will be comparable to your skill level on one race. It will NOT show in a match-up because the matchmaking system doesn't work like that. By definition the person playing against you is a similar skill level; they are approximately as good as you are, regardless of any lack of "experience" with a particular race. To illustrate: MMA is one of the best Terrans in the world. Lets say hypothetically MMA has NEVER played as Zerg. Ever. I don't know if this is true or not (I doubt it), but for the purposes of this example lets just say he's never played as Zerg. Now say MMA plays a game against me. Him as Zerg, me as Protoss. I've got a couple of hundred games experience as Protoss (I know, I know, I should play more). He has none as Zerg (in this example). What happens? I'd put money on him absolutely destroying me. Why doesn't my experience with Protoss win over his with Zerg? Simple: he's a much, much better player and he doesn't need any knowledge of Zerg beyond the absolute basics of "use injects, build stuff from larva at hatcheries, drones turn into buildings". And I'd guess that he could do the same to any player from Bronze to Mid-Masters regardless of how much experience they have with their race to his complete lack of experience with Zerg. That said you don't even have to go to extreme examples like a pro vs a random scrub like me. You can even see it between leagues. A Masters player playing a Gold player on an off-race will still probably win. A Platinum player playing a Bronze player on an off-race will similarly probably win. Thats not because they're suddenly good at the race, its because their fundamentals don't suck as much as those of the people they're playing against. Experience with a race means little when compared to skill and experience with the game generally. At the lower levels of the game experience with a race means basically nothing because everyone screws up so much and so badly. I random in 4v4s ("for the lulz") and no, my understanding of Zerg and Terran aren't as good as that of my understanding of Protoss. But I sure as hell don't blame a lack of experience with Zerg and Terran for any losses...its just because I suck at the game and my general mechanics and macro need to improve. I actually tend to win a lot in 4v4s. But again thats not because I'm amazing at any race I get given, its because my opponents suck even more than I do. Thats just the way it is at sub-high masters level, everyone's basic mechanics and macro suck. And actually this is all directly relevant to your question: why doesn't this happen at the highest level? Because at the highest levels this kind of experience DOES matter. When you have people whose macro and mechanics are pro-level then every little advantage counts. And having played 15,000 games as a Terran at that level means you're going to be much better with Terran than the other races when you've got the basics figured out. THATS why basically no pros play random. At the very highest levels knowing your race inside and out is a bigger edge than the psychological advantage of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as. However thats only valid at the very, very highest level. When you're talking about ladder, more specifically ladder at a Bronze to Mid-Masters level, experience with a race doesn't matter at all. If it did then people race switching should fall far further than they do when they switch. Your experience with your race means basically nothing at low levels. Therefore the lack of information is the bigger advantage because everyone, including you, suck at the game. Amongst pros there are numerous ways for them to gain an advantage and some advantages are worth more than others...because they have already got all of the basics down (almost?) perfectly. However the trick to winning on most of the ladder is to suck slightly less at the fundamental basics of this game than other people. In essence its down to the difference between sub-GM league play and actual professional play. One involves not sucking quite so bad as your opponent and the other involves actually out-thinking and out-playing them.
Nice post And that's why I can sleep at night playing random.
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People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats.
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On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone.
playing random isn't "harder" its just worse than spending your time all on one race. however, the ladder system accounts for that and will match up players it thinks have equal chances to win, so when it matches me against a random player i'll win about half the time, just like when it matches me against a protoss player. the difference is that playing against random is stupid, annoying, and not fun, because of the way the early game works.
since its such a small percentage of ladder games (especially in high masters) i'd rather leave than waste my time trying to develop my PvR.
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because random players are cheesing in every single game in ladder, maybe there are 2% of random players that play standard, but in never faced them......
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On February 24 2012 01:55 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). You also conveninently decided to ignore the incomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate? Because randoms on ladder play for fun and don't mind (and I guess they love it, even) the coin-flippy side of playing Random. Pro-gamers have their livelihood on the line. You can't gamble on random and expect to always be at an advantage at the start of the game, but you most likely will be less experienced in a longer game. In this a risk worth taking? For random ladderers, yeah, sure, they just want to cheese some ladder points and have fun playing SC2. For pros? They play for money, but it's not the fucking casino. For example, RvT puts you not in that much of a good position, so a pro would not want to play random vs a strong Terran. Random ZvP is a blast, however, and would probably yield a very high winrate at pro level. You seem to be agreeing with me that playing random is actually a big disadvantage if you want to win. If you agree to that, then the tens of posts in this thread about the unfair advantages of randoms are incorrect, yes? RvT is harder than RvP - ok, that's probably correct. Overall however, the reason why players don't choose random in tournaments is because it will decrease their chances to win than if they had picked a race. Show nested quote + Random is strong man, it's no use denying it. If you make MMA, DRG and MC play on a random account, this account will be strictly stronger and more fearsome than any of these players individually on their main race account.
This statement is demonstrably false. What is stopping them from choosing random? Are you saying they are not motivated enough to be "stronger and more fearsome "? How come no player of their caliber has chosen random and been consistently successful? If what you said were true, the top tier of the game would look a lot different than it does. Randoms are almost nowhere to be seen in the pro world. I suspect the reason random is perceived as strong is because none of the big, casted games are vs randoms. Everyone can copy a progamer's extremenly well refined PvZ build, but when it comes to PvR everyone is at a loss, since there are no tournament finals of PvR, so who can you copy? Pros have already figured out how to exploit the inherent weakness of random players, which is the reason randoms don't go anywhere in serious competitions. How many players here discovered for themselves the optimal build they are using in PvZ? I would say none, pretty much everyone copies big players. I'm sorry randoms are too weak to play vs the best players in the world, and I'm sorry that puts you in a position of having to work at creating a proper build for yourself, but you, racepicker, still have the advantage vs the random you are playing.
No I meant: DRG, MMA, MC sitting at the same table playing on a common random account and switching seats according to the race they got. DRG playing only the Z part, MMA the T, MC the P. I claim that this account is stronger than MC's pure P account (well, if we assume that the game is balanced and P is not completely overpowered :p)
I agree that playing Random overall is more difficult (if you don't plan to cheese every game, that is), learning-wise and mechanics-wise. But it does give you an unfair starting advantage in some matchups, like in ZvP (and a big one at that, no FFE bro). It's not contradictory for me.
Playing random is not optimal to consistently win tournaments. You can't win big money by being a one trick poney, so you have to be a solid player, and there is no denying that 3 races are more difficult to solidly master than only one. However, on ladder you only have to win a single game against an opponent you likely won't play ever again. In certain situations, you have a very big unfair advantage (RZvP). In this situation, Random is very strong, probably too much. A Random pro in the finals of a tournament against P cannot rely on drawing Z each game of a Bo7, he will have to know solid play in all vP matchups. The stakes are just not the same on ladder, man. But you still can take those ZvP freewins, which is what people in this thread complain about.
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On February 24 2012 02:10 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. Dont want to worry about the other player? Maybe should play team games or Monobattles.
uh, you seem confused, because this is one of the dumbest motherfucking posts i've read in my entire life
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mainly because especially when playing against Z, if you open for T or P then you really have issues without the FFE. Mainly i hate them because they all, except for one that i have played all in blindly and its very annoying.
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I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe.
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On February 24 2012 02:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:07 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote: Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote: I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed. You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. I 9-pylon scout every game, every matchup; and on large maps if I don't find immediately then I tend to 13-gateway scout as well in the opposite direction. How much more scouting do you propose? Your argument of "but they have to play all different races so its HARD" is complete rubbish. Regardless of whether or not that it is more difficult to do the system is dynamic. Therefore regardless of how good or bad they are as a random player they will be matched up appropriately. Therefore their average ability across their three races will be comparable to your skill level on one race. It will NOT show in a match-up because the matchmaking system doesn't work like that. By definition the person playing against you is a similar skill level; they are approximately as good as you are, regardless of any lack of "experience" with a particular race. To illustrate: MMA is one of the best Terrans in the world. Lets say hypothetically MMA has NEVER played as Zerg. Ever. I don't know if this is true or not (I doubt it), but for the purposes of this example lets just say he's never played as Zerg. Now say MMA plays a game against me. Him as Zerg, me as Protoss. I've got a couple of hundred games experience as Protoss (I know, I know, I should play more). He has none as Zerg (in this example). What happens? I'd put money on him absolutely destroying me. Why doesn't my experience with Protoss win over his with Zerg? Simple: he's a much, much better player and he doesn't need any knowledge of Zerg beyond the absolute basics of "use injects, build stuff from larva at hatcheries, drones turn into buildings". And I'd guess that he could do the same to any player from Bronze to Mid-Masters regardless of how much experience they have with their race to his complete lack of experience with Zerg. That said you don't even have to go to extreme examples like a pro vs a random scrub like me. You can even see it between leagues. A Masters player playing a Gold player on an off-race will still probably win. A Platinum player playing a Bronze player on an off-race will similarly probably win. Thats not because they're suddenly good at the race, its because their fundamentals don't suck as much as those of the people they're playing against. Experience with a race means little when compared to skill and experience with the game generally. At the lower levels of the game experience with a race means basically nothing because everyone screws up so much and so badly. I random in 4v4s ("for the lulz") and no, my understanding of Zerg and Terran aren't as good as that of my understanding of Protoss. But I sure as hell don't blame a lack of experience with Zerg and Terran for any losses...its just because I suck at the game and my general mechanics and macro need to improve. I actually tend to win a lot in 4v4s. But again thats not because I'm amazing at any race I get given, its because my opponents suck even more than I do. Thats just the way it is at sub-high masters level, everyone's basic mechanics and macro suck. And actually this is all directly relevant to your question: why doesn't this happen at the highest level? Because at the highest levels this kind of experience DOES matter. When you have people whose macro and mechanics are pro-level then every little advantage counts. And having played 15,000 games as a Terran at that level means you're going to be much better with Terran than the other races when you've got the basics figured out. THATS why basically no pros play random. At the very highest levels knowing your race inside and out is a bigger edge than the psychological advantage of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as. However thats only valid at the very, very highest level. When you're talking about ladder, more specifically ladder at a Bronze to Mid-Masters level, experience with a race doesn't matter at all. If it did then people race switching should fall far further than they do when they switch. Your experience with your race means basically nothing at low levels. Therefore the lack of information is the bigger advantage because everyone, including you, suck at the game. Amongst pros there are numerous ways for them to gain an advantage and some advantages are worth more than others...because they have already got all of the basics down (almost?) perfectly. However the trick to winning on most of the ladder is to suck slightly less at the fundamental basics of this game than other people. In essence its down to the difference between sub-GM league play and actual professional play. One involves not sucking quite so bad as your opponent and the other involves actually out-thinking and out-playing them. Nice post  And that's why I can sleep at night playing random.
Yah - I see what he's saying. Reason Random is better is simply we have better all-around mechanics. Thanks dude!
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On February 24 2012 02:18 Roblin wrote: I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe.
So youve never lost, or you pretty much have never lost. Which one hotshot.
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One of the big problems with playing against a Random player is the lack of information that we're used to having at the beginning of the game. For a Zerg player, this can be quite problematic because a 15h is usually viable against Terran, risky versus Zerg and game-ending for Protoss. However, opening 14/14 can put you behind in economy if your Protoss opponent opens with an FFE or a confident Z opens up 15h. Also, 14/14 puts you in a weird position vs. 2-rax/bunker pressure because creep is nonexistent in the natural until later, meaning a spine crawler isn't an option.
All in all, it sucks to play against a random player because you have to forego your economy just to figure out who you're up against.
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so if PvR is broken, why don't blizzard fix it?
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In my experience, random players just learn all-ins for every race @_@.
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i have only ever played random since buying the game, i dont think it makes a huge differeance tbh other than that the other guy has to scout you sooner, in regards to scouting just scout at a normal safe time and you should be ok from cheese, i get early scouted eveytime because i swear people think i rolled zerg and will be 6 pooling which may be the case but at worst if you early scout a random zerg and your scout is early you can atleast expansion block and force them to throw a pool down if they didnt 6 pool or anything like that and if they did you will be well preped for it. To all those people who hate random players, just scount a touch earlyer and revert to what ever build you ussaly do agasint that race, really the only advantage is alittle lost mining time and if you think thats unfair you should play random too
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On February 24 2012 02:18 Roblin wrote: I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe. What league/rank are you? If you welcome random players, I'd be happy to put an end to your perfect record, and I'm sure I could do it too, because I'm not shitty with all races, I'm pretty good with all races. You play "safe" and I'll play greedy.
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On February 24 2012 02:23 tztztz wrote: so if PvR is broken, why don't blizzard fix it?
Because less then 5% of people play random at Master level, genius. It basically means in itself that Random is in fact, not imbalanced. If it was, people would play it way more.
It's just that some situations are freaking frustrating in some matchups, which could be easily be dealt with if the random's race was displayed on the loading screen.
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most random players either cheese or dont know how to play a certain race so its not very good practice
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On February 23 2012 23:50 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:32 bouhko wrote:On February 23 2012 23:27 UmiNotsuki wrote: As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.) I really want some data on this unfair advantage thing. The number of pros playing random is very close to 0 and yet most tournaments don't forbid it. Don't you think that if random would give an unfair advantage, pro would play random ? Especially in korea where they don't have the stupid "cheese is lame" mentality ? Just stop it with the unfair advantage thing until we've seen some random player win some high level tournament. Look, you don't need data for the point to be obviously true. It's obviously true that most players have builds that deviate from each other depending on their opponent's race before they might want to scout. That makes it obvious that they either have to scout earlier than they would like to (which is sub-optimal) or just pick a build that's either acceptable against all three races (but not particularly good against one, which is bad because our opponent is only playing one race) or pick one that is good against a specific race and hope their opponent spawned as that race. That makes it obvious that it's unlikely that a non-random player will go into a game as strongly as they would if they were against the same race, but knew that before hand. There's an innate advantage to decision making that knowing your opponent's options can bring. Not to mention how obvious it is that it's almost impossible to effectively cheese a random player because there are effectively no cheeses that work against all three races. This removes the fear of cheese from a random player and allows them to be greedier than normal, or even to cheese themselves without their opponent necessarily knowing what they're going to do beforehand. It is all pretty obvious... The reason pros don't play random is because depth beats breadth, but for the more casual ladder player far too many games can be won by a random player cheesing. Actually, for the casual ladder player, far too many game can be won by any player cheesing. You easily go to diamond with only all-ins. So should we forbid cheese alltogether ?
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On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable.
Random should show your race upon startup.
Well, with random you need to learn three times as many match-ups, give some credit to the random player instead. Send a faster scout vs a random and play a little bit safer, since he probably doesn't know the match-up as well you can afford to play a bit safer. I agree though that random players cheese more, but all races cheese much in lower leagues.
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On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone. One of the best post in this thread so far...
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On February 23 2012 22:55 Teoita wrote: Because random doesn't show the race at start. As a protoss player, that's annoying as hell.
This. It's so frustrating to not be able to FFE on a map that is perfect for it, and then getting behind because of that.
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In the lower leauges (from what i've read) people tend to cheese a lot with random, but in my experience, my opponent is usually the one that goes for one base all ins and cheese when i'm the one playing random.
People bm/rage all the time at all levels, although I have never had anyone raged at me when they asked me what race I got and I tell them, if they lose even with that info, it is their own fault.
But you choose your own playstyle, it isn't just random players that gets raged at for being random, a lot of people just rage vs match ups they do bad against. Just don't mind them because it will probably ruin your day.
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On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience.
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I don't random players because they're usually just good at using cheesy/all-in strategies. And if they do decide to play standard its a complete waste of time for me because they quite honestly suck at it.
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This is not exclusive for random Don't feel too special, when people loose they tend to say stuff like this no matter what race you play.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me.
also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup.
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On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone.
This is ... not an intelligent response. And it's condescending, to boot, but where would an unintelligent internet post be without a healthy dose of condescension?
If you do not know the race your opponent is, and your opponent does know your race, and your opponent is even remotely competent, you are at a disadvantage. Saying that your opponent is then disadvantaged and is therefore entitled to claim other unfair advantages because he is not as good as you is absurd. That's basically saying that if I play a lower-ranked player I should be required to give him some advantage to "make it fair." Playing random does not put you at a "disadvantage," because putting yourself at a "disadvantage" implies that you are deliberately handicapping yourself for that game. Playing random doesn't disadvantage you because you are just worse at the game for it. You don't learn timings, or builds, how to deal with various pressures or cheeses, you don't solidify the macro mechanics of your race. You are simply not as good.
Random is not a race. You do not random into a random race. You do not pick a new strategy for a not-race. You random into T, P, or Z, and your opponent HAS to play the game as though you are T, P, or Z. Good players play each of those matchups differently, and begin those matchups with the knowledge of what race their opponents are. Playing a game without that basic knowledge makes that game silly.
The point that people are trying to make that you seem to be doing your best to ignore is that if you took two players, one of whom had some quantified level of skill X at only one race, and one of whom had the same quantified level of skill X at all 3 races, and allowed the latter player to play random, he would be at an advantage. The player who picked his race would not be able to execute a proper opening build versus the race that the latter player spawned as. I'm not saying this is a realistic situation - randoming sets you back from where you could be, almost universally, as I (and others) have previously mentioned, but this is the hypothetical they're trying to get across to you to make you understand that randoming could be strong.
So I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusions, as you didn't explain or back them up at all, but you are, sadly, simply wrong.
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Most Random players in the lower leagues do not understand each race they play, they instead know a select few cheeses:
Three Rax all in, 4 gate, 7 Roach Rush
Past the lower leagues the annoyance with Random players is that it forces their opponent to play a generic and safe build order until they scout their opponent.
Imagine you spawn as Terran on Tal'Darim Altar. Your opponent is random so you go 12 rax, 13 gas and scout after depot. You find your opponent in the last spawn position and they've gone nexus first, YAY.
It's pretty hard to go for a kill move on the nexus when you've gone 12rax, 13 gas so you either have to go with whatever you've got and hope to get the kill or chuck down the expo and be behind economically.
If the Terran player had known it was Protoss from the start they could have happily have gone gasless FE and scouted after barracks and even though they'd have gone nexus first you'd be in a far better economic situation as you haven't wasted time getting and mining gas and having an SCV mining a bit longer instead of scouting.
If the random player instantly announces their race upon the game starting then everyone is happy. But a random player who doesn't announce race, on tal'darim, is in the last location you scout and plays super greedy is one of the most annoying things.
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I played Random a lot before i choose T as my main. To avoid being BM and because playing Random was not intended to gain a little advantage over my opponent, i always told the race i spawned with at the very beginning. I have never been BM when i'm telling my race at the beginning. Most of the time your opponent doesn't believe you but in that case you're not the one to blame^^
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Hi,
I'm very interested in this post as I'm a Random player myself, basically in the exact same situation than the person who created that post (TOP 20 Plat EU and really willing to reach Master at some point). I didn't have time to read all the debate going on around here but I still gave it a good look and I think there is something most people don't talk about which is the disadvantages you get from being random.
I'm not talking about having to play 9 match ups or having a less deep knowledge of each race, I'm talking about how people react to random players and how this affects our openings too. Let's take the example of an RvT game where the Random players spawns as Protoss. There are several maps where a regular PvT would allow the Protoss players to go Nexus first or some kinds of really FE. This makes sense on TDA for example where the Terran player is much likely hisself to go for a FE (maybe CC first or gazless 1 rax) knowing he is facing a Protoss opponent. Know let's put this back in the situation where the match up is still a PvT but, the Protoss player actually picked random. Would any Terran player go for this kind of build against an opponent who's race is unknown? I highly doubt it ...
My point here is that by playing Random (whatever the reason for this choice may be), a player kind of forces hisself into having a 1 base tech ready soon in the game. Of course it's possible for a Random player to Nexus first or FFE against a Zerg player, and it's very likely to happen on most 4 players maps. But there are some scenarios (like that RvT turning into PvT) in which the Random player just won't have much choice but to start some kind of 1 base tech before expanding or going for an early aggression.
In the end, Random players choose to play Random, may it be because they like the 3 races, because they want to cheese a lot, or because their grandma told them "RANDOM IS THE WAY". But before starting to generalize with things such as "All random players are cheesing noobs" you migh also consider that as random players, our number of choices in early game is also diminished. Not as much as for a Z/P/T players facing a Random one (he won't be able to choose a clear opening before he knows he's opponent's race), but still, we don't have that much choices either.
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On February 24 2012 02:21 romelako wrote: One of the big problems with playing against a Random player is the lack of information that we're used to having at the beginning of the game. For a Zerg player, this can be quite problematic because a 15h is usually viable against Terran, risky versus Zerg and game-ending for Protoss. However, opening 14/14 can put you behind in economy if your Protoss opponent opens with an FFE or a confident Z opens up 15h. Also, 14/14 puts you in a weird position vs. 2-rax/bunker pressure because creep is nonexistent in the natural until later, meaning a spine crawler isn't an option.
All in all, it sucks to play against a random player because you have to forego your economy just to figure out who you're up against.
Do you like scout with like all your drones?
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On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience.
lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking.
i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like:
They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool.
when the first sentence of the post you quoted is:
i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me
how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated.
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It's annoying to not know what build order to do from the get-go and where to place your buildings. Also, random players have a tendency to cheese a lot :/
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Being random takes away the other players ability to select a build specifically for that race. It forces them to play super safe until they can scout, by that time a random player can all in or play greedy.
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Who cares whether or not you get to use an optimal build 100% of the time rather than 66% or 33%. Gaging who is more behind (one has to practice 9 matchups, the other practices 3; one has to use an all-around safe build for the first 2 minutes, the other has an opportunity to exploit that.) People just like to have a reason to dislike certain players. Some cry when they lose to z/t/p, others cry that they can't get everything they want for 2 minutes.
On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: Show nested quote + They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated.
What exactly did you want the moderators to do against this person? Warn him for having an opposing view?
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Wow. I don't understand the hate for randoms.
A lot of comments seem to think that it is unfair that you don't know your opponent's race and that you are forced to scout. The trade-off seems simple: you get a slight knowledge advantage over your opponent if you play random, in exchange for being a jack of all trades and master of none. It seems like a fair trade to me?
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I dislike playing against Random players, but I'll only play when I'm in the mood. Otherwise, I just leave the game. Could not care less about my ladder points.
Deciding which build order to do is the frustrating part. If I 1 rax expand, it will be okay vs a protoss, but against a zerg, I could have reactor'd hellion (arguably the best TvZ opening so far) for early map control & scouting for incoming ling bane roach busts.
I could solve my problems by coming up with a build that is designed for vs Random play, but I just don't care that much about beating a random player.
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On February 24 2012 02:20 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:18 Roblin wrote: I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe. So youve never lost, or you pretty much have never lost. Which one hotshot. well, I cannot say I have never lost, because that would not be true (I have lost to R during beta for example), but I have not lost to random in a very long time, so I went with a wording which describes how I think of it, if I face random I have very very very good chances of winning.
in other words: both my statements are true, I simply have played for more than 3 seasons.
besides, 11overpool 18hatch with correct scouting and transitioning holds literally every early cheese and allin which exists at my level of play (which, I admit, is low. but my point stands) and after I get into midgame all I need to do is to beat an inexperienced player at a macrogame.
it doesn't get any easier than that.
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Half of the posts in this thread don't make any sense to me. The problem vs random is not that they cheese or allin more than other players, it's just that you have no clue whatsoever as to what your opponent's race is, and therefore cannot pick an appropriate build for the matchup. A Protoss vs Random, for instance, would be extremely frustrating for the protoss because he'd be basically forced to play a one base build to be safe : the protoss player in this case can't possibly wait until he has scouted his opponent to build a pylon, and a pylon in main means NO FFE ( and possibly no way to punish a greedy zerg ) which puts you far behind on economy if your opponent spawns zerg. Every player can cheese / all in you . Maybe random players tend to do more cheese / allin / greedy openings, but everyone does that. The problem is that against a random, until you have scouted him, you have to account for the possibility that he will 15 hatch / 3rax allin / 4 gate you at the start of the game. If only you'd be able to know his race at the start of the game, like, maybe in the loading screen : " random : terran " or at the start of the game a message like " [Your opponent's name] is ZERG " appears every second for the first 5 seconds, something that lets you know your opponen'ts race before you throw down your spawning pool / hatcherie/ extractor // build your first pylon ... etc etc
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On February 24 2012 02:49 Valentine wrote:Who cares whether or not you get to use an optimal build 100% of the time rather than 66% or 33%. Gaging who is more behind (one has to practice 9 matchups, the other practices 3; one has to use an all-around safe build for the first 2 minutes, the other has an opportunity to exploit that.) People just like to have a reason to dislike certain players. Some cry when they lose to z/t/p, others cry that they can't get everything they want for 2 minutes. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. What exactly did you want the moderators to do against this person? Warn him for having an opposing view?
warn him for shitposting, because what he said was totally in opposition to explicit facts. it has nothing to do with my opinion; read his post. he quotes me saying basically "i don't care about cheese, pvr just makes for games that i don't find fun" and then goes off on a diatribe about how hypocritical it is for people to "complain about cheese".
i think i'm just used to places with more moderation, i realize it wasn't the most offensive thing in the world. it just frustrates me how obtuse some people can be, and the guy on the previous page who quoted my post was even worse than this one.
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On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup.
See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games".
Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups.
Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
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As toss, when i see random i go for the normal 9 pylon ,12 gate. If i see its a zerg player, time to 4 gate
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I think this discrimination stems from random not being included as a race in TL icons ^^
On a serious note, to any of those who posted in 18 pages of bitching and moaning, has it occurred to you that if you actually just played more games instead of flaming randoms in threads, you'd be good enough to not lose to their cheese? Seriously, the reason you're losing isn't because of randoms, it's just an excuse for the fact that your lack of scouting that cost you the game.
If it's really just a coinflip and you either pick the correct build to do or lose, how could Korean pros like Polt win against randoms or at least take it to late game after defending an allin in the large majority of his stream games. Do you think he'd lose to gold or plat NA/EU players just because they 6 pool and he can't scout it in time? Fuck no. Those 40 minerals/minute that put you SOOOOOOOOOOOOO far behind when you pylon scout..don't matter if it lets you scout what's up and win the game. It is such a negligible economic difference that it has no effect on the game until you reach high master/gm level of play. So what if you can't FFE, PRO players can bitch about the difference costing them the game because their random opponents actually know what the fuck they're doing. But Randy Random gold league rolls Z and hatch firsts against a 3 gate expo....builds won't be a contributing factor in who wins.
Yeah, some randoms cheese but there are people out there like me that gl/hf and tell my race after I load, because the only reason I'm not picking a race is due to the cool portraits >.> and you know what happens in 70-80% of my games?
PEOPLE CALL ME FUCKING RETARDED FOR ANNOUNCING MY RACE
But apparently none of the posters here would go that far. Just thought I'd give you a perspective of a random player.
TL:DR play more, bitch less.
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On February 24 2012 02:55 Marti wrote: If only you'd be able to know his race at the start of the game, like, maybe in the loading screen : " random : terran " or at the start of the game a message like " [Your opponent's name] is ZERG " appears every second for the first 5 seconds, something that lets you know your opponen'ts race before you throw down your spawning pool / hatcherie/ extractor // build your first pylon ... etc etc
yeah, this would be awesome. i think you would find some random players in support of this (probably the same ones who tell you their race before the game), but i think the majority want to keep their free advantage.
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On February 24 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote: If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone. This is ... not an intelligent response. And it's condescending, to boot, but where would an unintelligent internet post be without a healthy dose of condescension? If you do not know the race your opponent is, and your opponent does know your race, and your opponent is even remotely competent, you are at a disadvantage. Saying that your opponent is then disadvantaged and is therefore entitled to claim other unfair advantages because he is not as good as you is absurd. That's basically saying that if I play a lower-ranked player I should be required to give him some advantage to "make it fair." Playing random does not put you at a "disadvantage," because putting yourself at a "disadvantage" implies that you are deliberately handicapping yourself for that game. Playing random doesn't disadvantage you because you are just worse at the game for it. You don't learn timings, or builds, how to deal with various pressures or cheeses, you don't solidify the macro mechanics of your race. You are simply not as good. And you talk about condescension ? Also some random players are better than some non-random players. That simple fact destroys your last two sentences. You probably meant to say that their alternate self playing one race would be better than their current random self, but there is nothing to really support that hypothesis in general.
On February 24 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: Random is not a race. You do not random into a random race. You do not pick a new strategy for a not-race. You random into T, P, or Z, and your opponent HAS to play the game as though you are T, P, or Z. Good players play each of those matchups differently, and begin those matchups with the knowledge of what race their opponents are. Playing a game without that basic knowledge makes that game silly.
The point that people are trying to make that you seem to be doing your best to ignore is that if you took two players, one of whom had some quantified level of skill X at only one race, and one of whom had the same quantified level of skill X at all 3 races, and allowed the latter player to play random, he would be at an advantage. The player who picked his race would not be able to execute a proper opening build versus the race that the latter player spawned as.
So I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusions, as you didn't explain or back them up at all, but you are, sadly, simply wrong. Actually you are wrong. Yes, random is not a race. However random is part of the game that Blizzard designed and that you play. Read some game theory, you will find out that in fact there is something like a strategy against random. And it is highly likely that if optimal strategy for normal matchups exists it also exists for XvR.
My point is the game contains random and it is not up to you to limit the game just because you do not like parts of it. Since Blizzard quite deliberately put random in, it is not a basic knowledge to know your opponents race.
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Isn't that the nature of playing random? you get less practice in a certain matches and therefore your strategy pool doesn't expand and your understanding of the match ups remain elementary. If you want to win, you'll just end up one basing and killing your opponent.
So in a way, if you lose to a random player, you really should relook your basic understanding of the game because, in a way, you already know he is going for a one base tactic, so you should one base too until you scout otherwise; and he will probably have less of an understanding for the other match ups.
Generally if you don't FE and put early pressure on a random player, he's going to lose because he doesn't understand late game. Random players almost always win early game. When I've lost to random players, it was always to a) 6 pool b) well-executed cannon rush c)four gate d) 2 rax all-in e) 5 rax all-in. All of these can be stopped with bunkers and repairing SCVs.
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I only hate random players that do not worker scout. It's that kinda of cheesy mentality that really pisses me off - the fact that you don't know what race they are, and that they don't even know if you are doing a cheese or not. All it does is degenerate the game into more randomness.
Also it is widely known that Random is extremely rare in the pro-scene. Although ofc most of us are not pros, or going to be pros, we like to think that we will make it there someday. Because of this, we generally are not interested in our TvR, PvR, or ZvR builds. Since we aspire to play at high level, we don't anticipate playing Randoms.
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On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I don't think this is true in most cases, as a lot of people have said that it would not bother them to play versus random players if the loading screen showed their race. At least personally I don't care if a person is two, three or ten times better than me in such a trivial thing as a videogame, its purely the fact that I cannot practice my builds which annoys me.
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Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg?
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On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote: no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking.
Yeah you and some others. Thanks for the free wins dude! ^_^
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On February 24 2012 00:43 Pro]ChoSen- wrote: Why do people hate randoms? Because people are idiots simple answer.
I'll never ever understand why people play a STRATEGY game and then complain about the strategy someone chooses. Like their is some effing manual on "how to play Starcraft like a gentleman". I choose my strategy, you choose yours, may the best man win. Your opponent isn't obligating to playing the game how you want him to but yet people still feel that way.
If you think a certain race is imba, or playing random is imba, or cheesing is imba, or some build is imba, (first of all you would be wrong) but second of all you can pick what race you play or how you play. And don't give people the "i have self respect so I won't play (insert imba bias) or cheese" lol that's the stupidest shit ever.
So if there was an option to play the race you wanted, but not letting your enemy see what you choose, would that be fair as well?
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I don't hate randoms at all. But I sure as hell scout all the possible cheeses, because there's a much higher chance for ridiculousness than a T/Z/P player.
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personally, i love random players. i am a very mannered person though, and i always try to respect my opponent as much as possible, even if they bm me. i have noticed that a "glhf " usually stops the bm before it starts though. but on the subject of random players: i think they are very brave. if i didn't suck with the other two races i would go random every time.
edit: i wonder if the "theoretical best player" would be random...?
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
Good post. This is exactly why I don't comprehend why you would want to pick random instead of racepicking for each match.
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On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote: Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg?
Solution.
1. Select Worker. Hotkey.
2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn.
3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent.
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On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: Show nested quote + They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. You are definitely not apathetic, because you actually said at the end of your post "personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.". If you would be, you would not care one way or the other. And your second paragraph is full of complaining, so yes you are actually complaining.
But to clarify as parts of my post are not perfect match to your post, my post was meant as a general answer to similar posts throughout this thread since I did not want to go and search for every one of them. I noted that somewhat at the beginning of my post though.
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths.
What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind"
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On February 24 2012 02:55 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:49 Valentine wrote:Who cares whether or not you get to use an optimal build 100% of the time rather than 66% or 33%. Gaging who is more behind (one has to practice 9 matchups, the other practices 3; one has to use an all-around safe build for the first 2 minutes, the other has an opportunity to exploit that.) People just like to have a reason to dislike certain players. Some cry when they lose to z/t/p, others cry that they can't get everything they want for 2 minutes. On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. What exactly did you want the moderators to do against this person? Warn him for having an opposing view? warn him for shitposting, because what he said was totally in opposition to explicit facts. it has nothing to do with my opinion; read his post. he quotes me saying basically "i don't care about cheese, pvr just makes for games that i don't find fun" and then goes off on a diatribe about how hypocritical it is for people to "complain about cheese". i think i'm just used to places with more moderation, i realize it wasn't the most offensive thing in the world. it just frustrates me how obtuse some people can be, and the guy on the previous page who quoted my post was even worse than this one. When you are contradicting that quoted sentence with a whole paragraph later on, sorry but I have no reason to actually take it at face value.
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
There are advantages/disadvantages to playing random. No need to say we suck.
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cuz if you are zerg and im protoss and open with 12 gate , im pretty much screwed up .
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
Yup, I think you nailed it man. Everyone plays safe against random. Random definitely gets to play his normal game while the normal players do not. I think that's a big part of it.
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I don't lose to random players, and I don't know of too many other people that do. I do a safe opening and scout their cheese. If they are cheesing me I bunker the hell up and wait for it, and if they're not, im better than them at a macro game so I win.
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. I play Random simply because I want to learn all the races as it's not fun 'mastering' just one. I always tell my opponent my race in the beginning of the game to avoid the problems you state and even when I'm raging and don't announce my race the opponents usually just scout me early and eliminates possibilities of cheese with the game going to macro mode.
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Someone seriously needs to call the Waambulance. There is some particularly pathetic and potential fatal QQ going on here.
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On February 24 2012 03:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:personally, i love random players. i am a very mannered person though, and i always try to respect my opponent as much as possible, even if they bm me. i have noticed that a "glhf  " usually stops the bm before it starts though. but on the subject of random players: i think they are very brave. if i didn't suck with the other two races i would go random every time. edit: i wonder if the "theoretical best player" would be random...? Race picker would be theoretically best player. If he could pick races at least based on maps and even better based on opponents After that random probably. But that is all assuming some theoretical superman.
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On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind"
Ok, you just didn't understand at all, did you? First of all, playing strategy A is not the same as playing AGAINST strategy A, that's just plain wrong. That's like saying that playing Terran is the same as playing vs Terran. Hint: it's not. You might have a slightly better understanding of a build's weaknesses by playing it yourself, but you certainly don't know how to play against it, don't spout such bullshit now. Second, I was not complaining about MY losses, but about YOUR almighty "macro random" attitude. It's YOU who play the fucking distorted matchups, not me (well, except against randoms, of course).
At least random cheesers are honest to themselves ;D
Edit: Again, I'm not saying that Randoms are bad players. Just don't go thinking that you got the full game figured out because you play the 3 races, that's not true, because you don't play against openings that are actually THE standard in your 9 matchups. An opening is very important, that's why people refine them and optimize worker mining and scout timing. All of that goes to trash against random opponents.
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Imean seriously you should have mulitple builds for every race. I do that and I'm random so I need like 18 builds to have more than one per matchup. If you can't deal with the fact that your one build order doesn't work ad nauseum, maybe you should play something less intellectually intensive.
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
Agree 100%. As toss, i can never FFE against z (unless i scout on 6 on a 2 player map... lol) and I HAVE to gateway-wall, which puts me way behind against a competent protoss.
I never cheese or BM random players (they're just having fun after all), but i do leave customs vs R. I really don't want to deal with the bullshit of an auto-loss if my opponent is equal skill and i had to 'gimp' my opener.
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What I hate about random is that I never know if I should wall in or not.
For example, I used to get a Random every other game on TDA and I'm Protoss. Now, do I go about building my pylon+buildings in my base, or do I go wall the choke off?
Better guess correctly, because if you don't and random is Zerg, they're going to probably be scrubs and do a ling run by. And if you do wall in and they're T/P, they're going to rush you with a 4gate or M+M.
Durr, heres to guessing against random players.
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I was actually going to start maining a race, but now seeing the QQ and how I will get statistically more free wins from you quitters, I'm prbly gonna stick Random. I wish TLO would come on this post and back us Rs up. Even if he is zerg he is still R at heart.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit.
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On February 24 2012 03:06 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote: Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg? Solution. 1. Select Worker. Hotkey. 2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn. 3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent.
What if you scout him late? On a map like Tal'darim? Your build gets botched.
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On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit.
Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills".
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On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description.
Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit.
Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead.
Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true.
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On February 24 2012 03:26 Arghmyliver wrote: I was actually going to start maining a race, but now seeing the QQ and how I will get statistically more free wins from you quitters, I'm prbly gonna stick Random. I wish TLO would come on this post and back us Rs up. Even if he is zerg he is still R at heart.
TLO is a pro that only looks to play macro games usually. He won't just rush someone because they guessed incorrectly as to what his race was.
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On February 24 2012 03:07 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. You are definitely not apathetic, because you actually said at the end of your post "personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.". If you would be, you would not care one way or the other. And your second paragraph is full of complaining, so yes you are actually complaining. But to clarify as parts of my post are not perfect match to your post, my post was meant as a general answer to similar posts throughout this thread since I did not want to go and search for every one of them. I noted that somewhat at the beginning of my post though.
wrong, having an opinion on how ladder should be set up isn't the same as caring. i don't think you know what apathy means. yes, i think in an ideal world the random option would be removed from bnet, and no, leaving a game once in a while before it starts doesn't really bother me. this is really simple lol
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On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true.
They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back.
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The way I see it, Random gets a small advantage because their opponent has to open safer, and in return they have to master 3 races instead of 1. Sounds fair to me. Then again, I'm Zerg, and I can 11 pool 18 hatch and be safe + economic against all three races. No idea about the whole wall off issue as a Protoss...
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. Well said. A random player will always be playing against sub-optimal strategies because his/her opponent is FORCED to play super safe for the initial minutes of the game.
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On February 24 2012 03:30 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills". you do realize that you dont have to play each race exclusively to know all the standard build orders of each race, right? thats why coaches are able to coach more than one race, and commentators are able to discuss multiple match-ups.
i play random, i am in master's league, and i suck balls. i have never cheesed or all-inned a 1v1 game on the ladder because i find those games incredibly boring. i play random because i get bored playing the same race over and over; also another reason why i suck balls. if you play this game to get really good, you'll need to specialize on one race, but if you are just playing it for fun then random is the way to go in my mind.
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On February 24 2012 03:34 Nosforit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true. They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back. yeah, and when they say, i spawned as protoss but really spawned as zerg? you can't take them at their word because if you do and the above happens its pretty much an auto loss because you believed them. and if you don't well then you are still in the same boat, having to always wall in, which, speciffically for protoss, is a bad thing UNLESS its zerg, at which point you are still behind because you didn't fast expand.
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On February 24 2012 03:35 Ainvar wrote: The way I see it, Random gets a small advantage because their opponent has to open safer, and in return they have to master 3 races instead of 1. Sounds fair to me. Then again, I'm Zerg, and I can 11 pool 18 hatch and be safe + economic against all three races. No idea about the whole wall off issue as a Protoss...
Try deciding if you should wall off on a map like TDA.
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On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true. stupid shit = scout?
obviously, zergs wont go fe until they scout, and tosses wont go ffe, but other than that, it really doesn't change the matchup. and you can always say your race at the beginning (i believe day9 said he does this).
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I get BM all the time for playing Random. No matter what race I get, if I win from a small push that is supposed to just apply pressure they say I all-in when in reality I'm not. I prefer macro games over 1 base games.
But another reason why people hate on Random players is because they don't know what to open with so they have to waste to the time on an early scout.
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On February 24 2012 03:28 AXygnus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:06 Arghmyliver wrote:On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote: Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg? Solution. 1. Select Worker. Hotkey. 2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn. 3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent. What if you scout him late? On a map like Tal'darim? Your build gets botched. Stop whining. Terran is the easiest vs. Random race to play as. It is the one race with a basically cheese proof macro-opener that works vs. all races: 1 Rax FE. If you seriously can't play a generic build order to victory against a player that has less experience against your race, you're probably not a good player.
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On February 24 2012 03:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" Ok, you just didn't understand at all, did you? First of all, playing strategy A is not the same as playing AGAINST strategy A, that's just plain wrong. That's like saying that playing Terran is the same as playing vs Terran. Hint: it's not. You might have a slightly better understanding of a build's weaknesses by playing it yourself, but you certainly don't know how to play against it, don't spout such bullshit now. Second, I was not complaining about MY losses, but about YOUR almighty "macro random" attitude. It's YOU who play the fucking distorted matchups, not me (well, except against randoms, of course). At least random cheesers are honest to themselves ;D
Sure openings are important and you might fall a little behind early on because of your opponent playing random. But there are so many tricks and ways to pull back ahead in SC2, it just implies taking a few risks at some point ... which I guess is very scary for some players. It may be my mistake for not reading every single message of the post, but I don't see or know many random players claiming to be all mighty because they play the 3 races.
Also, you might consider that many maps and/or situations will make the game such way that the non-random player knows the random player's race before having to make any big decision (even on TDA there's still one chance out of 3 your scouting worker meets his on the way and you get the information on time).
I'm not trying to say all random players who can pull off a decent macro game should have this all mighty macro attitude, I'm just saying your argument isn't valid at all. Random players may face uncommon openers but it doesn't mean they won't face the classic ones too.
I'm random only, I played more than a 1000 games, and I've faced countless 15 Hatch when i was Terran and countless FFE or nexus First when I was Zerg, in facts this is more than 50% of the openers I faced in these match-ups.
Go play Random if you don't believe it ...
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On February 24 2012 03:30 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills". the argument? k i will respond to your paragraph of gibberish i know how to play vs forge FE because i played zerg for about 500 games and zvt was my best matchup. before that i played terran for even more games, where tvz was my best matchup and where i got raped by nexus first more times than probably all of your games combined.
you sound really bitter, and you shouldn't be. why is it so hard to accept that there are decent random players?
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On February 24 2012 03:34 Nosforit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true. They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back.
Call me a cynic, but people lie... and I this has happened to me a few times. I still wouldn't risk a FFE if the R told me he was zerg. Too risky that he's actually toss. You may not be a lying ****, but many people are... immature.
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It's annoying to play at the beginning, but I never BM if I lose. While I do see a lot of cheese when I play randoms, I always know my losses were a result of my own mistakes. Other people just like to have a reason other then themselves when they lose.
Personally, I enjoy playing random players if I can make it past the early game because I know I'll have the macro advantage.
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Random players usually all-in, and those who don't usually have 1 race holding them back at your MMR, so if you get them on one of their good races, they usually just roll you.
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On February 24 2012 03:28 AXygnus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:06 Arghmyliver wrote:On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote: Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg? Solution. 1. Select Worker. Hotkey. 2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn. 3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent. What if you scout him late? On a map like Tal'darim? Your build gets botched.
You should be accounting for rush distance. Tal'Darim is really big so rushes/early timings like six pool, conc pressure are not going to be as good simply due to travel. Try maybe one rax FE and throw up some bunkers.
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Random is actually imbalanced imo. atleast against toss
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Playing random is awesome, gives you such a wide spread of matchups to play. Sure you might receive some hate from time to time, but every race gets that ^^.
The best part for me is that i can relax much more when I'm playing random, when i played Terran i always got pissed after losing, as random it just doesn't sting as much. Besides i don't need to feel the urge to complain about balance since I'll get both the winning and losing hands.
I can understand that some people get angry that they can't do their specific opening, but man if their only playing one race i think they can handle to have a general build the first minutes of the game those few times they meet us randomers..
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On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that? Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you. I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random.
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PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate
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They're just hoping that it's a David Kim smurf they're calling a piece of shit.
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because we have to change our opening buildings to account for the fact that you could be any of the 3 races. it can really mess up the entire game. i always 4gate vs randoms just to get the game over with quickly.
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On February 24 2012 03:44 iTzSnypah wrote: Random players usually all-in, and those who don't usually have 1 race holding them back at your MMR, so if you get them on one of their good races, they usually just roll you.
Lol yeah I really want to know what my MMR curve is. I saw a thread about it and I think mine must be like the bell curve from hell in Phys 222.
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I enjoy playing random as I want an even chance of playing each race without having to play on different accouts. Its annoys me when people BM me or all-in me cos I am Random. Especially as my Toss and Terran are both at the same level as my MMR is.
Sadly there are a few people who play random so they can cheese or lie about their race. I thought I had a PvP (RvR) when he told me his race, followed by a 10 pool. (I won) but there is a minority that abuse the system.
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On February 24 2012 03:48 Pusekatten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that? Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you. I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random.
Then quit whining?
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Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in.
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I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race.
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Cause they are brainwashed into thinking you can't play solid vs random.. just like any other rts game..
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On February 24 2012 03:51 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:48 Pusekatten wrote:On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that? Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you. I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random. Then quit whining? you didn't get it did you? I'm not whining about random being hard to play or that its unfair in this post. I'm pointing out to someone who is whining about that playing random takes more skills because you have to know more match-ups etc, that it's not so hard, and he should stop whining.
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To me, playing vs random is like playing any other matchup: just learn builds that can transition vs all three races. I have my little brother (who can school me with all three races) random vs me on a fairly regular basis just so that I can practice it because so many people at my level random.
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A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill
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Okay, so I get the "just play a little safer and learn to scout, it's not that hard!". Indeed it's not, put like this.
Now I'm going to bring you a common case of PvR, just tell me how to crack that. I'm on Tal Darim, he's Random, I will scout with my 9 pylon probe, earlier scout timings I deem irrelevant and plain silly. Let's say he spawned at the last position I'll scout. Where do I place my first pylon and what is my first building? I have basically 3 options for the placement:
1) At the main's choke. 2) At the natural's choke. 3) Next to my nexus.
2 options for the building, 1 more if I want to go Nexus first, but let's cross that off:
1) Gateway 2) Forge
Now what are the outcomes?
- Okay, I made a Forge, but he's Terran. I'm pretty fucked, don't you think? What do I do? Cannon-rush? vs Terran? Forge expand? vs Terran? Let's give up on the Forge idea. - Gateway it is then. I chose to make it at spot 1) or 2). He is Protoss. Tal darim is 4gate vs 4gate (it is, don't try to deny it), so it'll be a 4gate. A forward gateway can be abused by stalkers, and so can be the pylon. Losing a gateway is really bad in 4 gate wars, and it doens't require that much experience to 4gate. I would say the random is ahead, without doing anything, in a matchup that is micro based and doesn't require much Protoss lategame experience at all. - Okay, so I put my Gateway in spot 3), next to my Nexus. I'm fine in PvP. I'm fine in PvT. Oh, he's Zerg. I see he hatched first. I'm now with a gateway first build, on a map without a main ramp, against the most economical Zerg build. Did you ever see any theorycrafting for this situation? No you didn't, because it doesn't exist in any PvZ game. And this situation is actually strictly worse than every opening you can think of in traditional PvZ. A great start indeed. - Note that even disregarding PvP, a gateway build on Taldarim vs Zerg, no matter the placement, is not at all optimal. It's not actually playing safer, it's taking huge risks at the start of the game, because your opponent made the good decision of... picking Random.
Ask every Protoss, this situation is real, it's not something I invented. It's only for one ladder game, yes, but most likely a game we won't learn anything from.
Could I have scouted earlier? Well no, what do you want me to do? Send one of my 6 starting workers? Might as well proxy something in the middle of the map then. Could I have played safer? Well, you'll note that it's not even my build yet that I'm talking about. It's my fucking first pylon and my first building. There are not that many combinations, so you can just try them all.
THIS is why we don't like playing against Random. Not because you're all cheesy. Not because you're all better players than us. Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is...
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As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random.
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The mere fact that your opponent knows what matchup he's playing while you don't, IMO, is enough to justify rage vs random. Sometimes you just autolose because you did a build for the wrong matchup (esp on big 4player maps, unlucky scout -> autolose).
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On February 24 2012 03:53 Silentenigma wrote: Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in.
On February 24 2012 03:54 KrsOne wrote: I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race.
You suck and all you do is abusive all in builds.
See how the argument falls apart when you just say random shit?
Watch:
Your mothers a hippo and all she does is all in builds.
Once I ate an octopus and all it did was all in builds.
Ten years ago I met a family of Garage Musicians. They sucked and only did abusive power chord builds.
Once I was playing poker and lost cause the guy just did cheesy all-ins.
Homer Dingleberry elephant night swallowers ate my rumpletweezer and my bubbles kerniggit cheesy all in builds.
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On February 24 2012 03:49 SupItsG wrote: PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate
You know, your general choice involves playing random yourself. Suddenly they don't have an advantage, eh? Of course, you'll have to learn the other two races. So yeah, it's just a trade off. One guy learns 9 matchups, one guy has to live with a less than optimal BO. If you don't like disadvantages vs random, play random. If you feel that wouldn't benefit you, don't. Just don't cry about it (btw, Tal Darim = generally ridiculous map in any PvX matchup).
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When I used to play random I would avoid cheesing generally because people scout you sooner. Not every random player is a cheeser ><
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On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining.
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You know, if that pretty long rant was true then GSL should have 32 random players in it XD
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On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining.
random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random.
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On February 24 2012 03:41 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:30 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills". the argument? k i will respond to your paragraph of gibberish i know how to play vs forge FE because i played zerg for about 500 games and zvt was my best matchup. before that i played terran for even more games, where tvz was my best matchup and where i got raped by nexus first more times than probably all of your games combined. you sound really bitter, and you shouldn't be. why is it so hard to accept that there are decent random players?
You seem to hold yourself in high regard, that's for sure. I'm not bitter anymore, now that I know how good of a Random player you are. You really opened my eyes. And as you've confirmed, I have not played as many games of Starcraft 2 as you have losing TvPs against Nexus first, that's a fact. Thank you for reminding me.
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On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race.
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On February 24 2012 04:03 Hummingb1rd wrote: As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random.
Please explain to me how you prepare 1 build vs 3 potential races.
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On February 24 2012 04:10 Timerly wrote: You know, if that pretty long rant was true then GSL should have 32 random players in it XD seriously. and the only true random player eventually chose terran.
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On February 24 2012 04:12 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:03 Hummingb1rd wrote: As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random. Please explain to me how you prepare 1 build vs 3 potential races. Presumably, such a build is safe against aggressive openings from all three races but can transition into either aggressive tech or good economy depending on the race and build scouted. I think each race is capable of this; it just doesn't let you start your build knowing that you will go macro mode, or be aggressive.
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On February 24 2012 04:12 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:03 Hummingb1rd wrote: As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random. Please explain to me how you prepare 1 build vs 3 potential races. play safe, not greedy, and scout faster.
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just played random "for the lulz"
first game:
Haraldur: learn to play a 1 race nub Haraldur has reconnected. You: wow says the onebasing protoss Haraldur: or play wow on RP realm oor gtfo You: what? The player is ignoring you.
this is going to be mighty fun
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On February 24 2012 04:12 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:03 Hummingb1rd wrote: As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random. Please explain to me how you prepare 1 build vs 3 potential races. Scout fast. Ok u will get a little bit late, but dude, your opponent has to learn how to play 3 different races .... HUGE DEAL HU ?
I dont understand people who cry "ooohh noees my pylon is on the wrong position" Seriously ..
I swear there are new breeds of stupids coming in to TLeveryday.
Uuuhhh yes
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I dont hate on random players at all, i love to play against them. You can relax and dont scout since u know whats coming, im zerg and all i have to do is check my half of the map for proxy and if there is none i make units for 6-8 minute 1 base all in . We should all love random players.
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As a random player, I find ZvP a lot easier against protoss who FFE. It lets me take a quick third and drone up and I only have a couple specific timings I need to look out for to check for an early pressure and then some sort of two base timing attack. Against a 1/3 gate expand toss, you have to ovie scout around 5:30, constantly poke with a zergling to check the sentry count, make sure the expansion doesn't get cancelled once it starts, and if you make one round of drones too many an all-in or even just a simple pressure build has the potential to kill you. When I switched to Zerg on ladder for awhile (My ZvX was my worst at the time and I was trying to make it into masters). My ZvP winrate jumped from <45% to >60% according to SCGears.
I think the hardest part about playing random is learning all the timings. This is especially hard as Zerg, where just about every timing is necessary to know since you simply die if you don't know them (when to make spines vs reactored hellion, when to scout for 4 gate, ect), but also true for protoss and terran (i.e. when to scout zerg's main in case of Roach-ling all-in when you FFE / 1 rax gasless expand). I have a tendency to use pressure openings to make up for this because pressure openings force my opponent to reveal what they are doing (for example, reactor first 2 rax against protoss lets me see sentry count, unit composition, tech if they got it and whether or not they got an early expansion). A lot of players call me out for "all-ins" and say I'm a "cheesy noob" when they die to a simple 2 rax pressure.
Also, I start every game by saying "gl hf I'm <race>". I'd say about 50% of people believe me, while another 30-40% are skeptical. It's pretty rare to meet the person who doesn't say anything back and cheeses me, and the fact that they don't say anything gives them away as a cheeser and I enjoy the free win and cries of "imba". I assume that random players get cheesed about as much as any other player as long as they tell their race at the start of the game.
I don't feel like I have a significant advantage over other players because I'm random. In all honesty, I often feel like I'm mechanically the superior player but lose because I don't know the specific timings to the newest all-in / pressure build or dont have experience playing against some obscure strategy. But I'm sure just about every macro player feels that way :D
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On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race.
no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
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On February 24 2012 04:02 ZenithM wrote: Okay, so I get the "just play a little safer and learn to scout, it's not that hard!". Indeed it's not, put like this.
Now I'm going to bring you a common case of PvR, just tell me how to crack that. I'm on Tal Darim, he's Random, I will scout with my 9 pylon probe, earlier scout timings I deem irrelevant and plain silly. Let's say he spawned at the last position I'll scout. Where do I place my first pylon and what is my first building? I have basically 3 options for the placement:
1) At the main's choke. 2) At the natural's choke. 3) Next to my nexus.
2 options for the building, 1 more if I want to go Nexus first, but let's cross that off:
1) Gateway 2) Forge
Now what are the outcomes?
- Okay, I made a Forge, but he's Terran. I'm pretty fucked, don't you think? What do I do? Cannon-rush? vs Terran? Forge expand? vs Terran? Let's give up on the Forge idea. - Gateway it is then. I chose to make it at spot 1) or 2). He is Protoss. Tal darim is 4gate vs 4gate (it is, don't try to deny it), so it'll be a 4gate. A forward gateway can be abused by stalkers, and so can be the pylon. Losing a gateway is really bad in 4 gate wars, and it doens't require that much experience to 4gate. I would say the random is ahead, without doing anything, in a matchup that is micro based and doesn't require much Protoss lategame experience at all. - Okay, so I put my Gateway in spot 3), next to my Nexus. I'm fine in PvP. I'm fine in PvT. Oh, he's Zerg. I see he hatched first. I'm now with a gateway first build, on a map without a main ramp, against the most economical Zerg build. Did you ever see any theorycrafting for this situation? No you didn't, because it doesn't exist in any PvZ game. And this situation is actually strictly worse than every opening you can think of in traditional PvZ. A great start indeed. - Note that even disregarding PvP, a gateway build on Taldarim vs Zerg, no matter the placement, is not at all optimal. It's not actually playing safer, it's taking huge risks at the start of the game, because your opponent made the good decision of... picking Random.
Ask every Protoss, this situation is real, it's not something I invented. It's only for one ladder game, yes, but most likely a game we won't learn anything from.
Could I have scouted earlier? Well no, what do you want me to do? Send one of my 6 starting workers? Might as well proxy something in the middle of the map then. Could I have played safer? Well, you'll note that it's not even my build yet that I'm talking about. It's my fucking first pylon and my first building. There are not that many combinations, so you can just try them all.
THIS is why we don't like playing against Random. Not because you're all cheesy. Not because you're all better players than us. Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is...
Build gate at nat choke. Prepare for 3 stalk rush. If you scout zerg, build zealots. Done.
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I view Random as the "optimal" choice -- like how perfectly micro'd marine-ghost is better than perfectly micro'd marine-marauder-ghost in PvT against zealot-archon-HT, but marine-ghost is infinitely harder to pull off, and that people who don't play random are only doing so because they haven't gotten good enough at the game to play Random.
Random raises the skill ceiling, so to speak, which is a good thing. If you're intentionally handicapping yourself by picking a race, that's your own fault.
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For me its always annoying playing a random player because i like to know when to wall off or not. Sometimes when i don't wall off, and he gets zerg and does a 9 pool, its hard to hold off without a wall. If i do wall off and hes terran he just scans my buildings from ramp and kills them.
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On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it.
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On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
Yes, they have a slight advantage per se. No, that's not "imbalanced" because to reach that level they had to learn all three races and that does existentially influence the game you're playing. They invested the time before. You didn't. Their MMR is the same as yours while they trained quite a bit more. Maybe you only getting 45% win vs random at your level is kinda fair then? Imagine if the'y trained one race for that long, they'd probably crush you Oo
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If I play against a random I scout at 9, wall in early, defend whatever cheese comes, and win. Of course the smart random players do economic "cheese" by FE'ing then roflstomp me for playing too conservatively.
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This season I have only played random so far (only team games tho cuz my toss is abysmal lol). But when I play a random player 1v1 and they win I usually give them props because it is much more difficult to be good at all three races than just one.
One of the reasons I respect TLO so much was for playing random at such a high level. It requires a higher understanding of the game as a whole.
But when I play random I hardly ever cheese because then I don't learn anything about playing that race... Macro games are so much more fun
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On February 24 2012 04:25 leperphilliac wrote: If I play against a random I scout at 9, wall in early, defend whatever cheese comes, and win. Of course the smart random players do economic "cheese" by FE'ing then roflstomp me for playing too conservatively. lol. random players cant win. if they rush, they are cheesers; if they expand, they are cheesers. love the logic.
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I don't hate them. Lot of them cheese though. It's not easy to play with but they are often worse than a single racing player nonetheless.
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Its usually a cheese game or very boring in my experience. Few times have I been impressed by a random player
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On February 24 2012 04:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it.
no i don't complain^^ and i never said its easy. i just explained why its not possible to balance random. obviously your friend will lose his non zerg games, because his non zerg match ups are not masters level. but a random player can only be master, if ALL his matchups are master level. so if a random master players against a non random master, they have same skill level, but the random player has an advantage
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On February 24 2012 04:06 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:49 SupItsG wrote: PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate You know, your general choice involves playing random yourself. Suddenly they don't have an advantage, eh? Of course, you'll have to learn the other two races. So yeah, it's just a trade off. One guy learns 9 matchups, one guy has to live with a less than optimal BO. If you don't like disadvantages vs random, play random. If you feel that wouldn't benefit you, don't. Just don't cry about it (btw, Tal Darim = generally ridiculous map in any PvX matchup).
you can just go 6 times allin in the mus you dont like and that seems to be the tactic of choice for nearly every random player out there...
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On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope.
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On February 24 2012 04:18 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:02 ZenithM wrote: THIS is why we don't like playing against Random. Not because you're all cheesy. Not because you're all better players than us. Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is... How does the game do not make sense? What the fuck? Assuming that random players get a fairly minuscule advantage from playing random, you get the benefit of only knowing 3 matchups rather 9 matchups. How hard is it to understand that? I understand there might be every-so-slight advantage from your opponent not knowing your matchup, but so fucking what? You go gate first vs hatch first build - then PUNISH HIM. Why do you HAVE to go FFE? or FE? You can adapt to it. That's why it's called REAL-TIME Strategy -> you change your strategy REAL time based on the information you know, IE you know their race vs not knowing their race. Bitching about random is same as bitching about how one race is OP. It's only more socially acceptable because the % of random players are much less than race-picking players. So quit your bitching. I swear there are new breeds of stupids coming in to TLeveryday.
Yeah well, I can also "adapt" to double CCing first every single game, doesn't mean I will win. Not every strategy is the right strategy. And punishing a hatch first, that's something new. You know that hatching first is very standard for Zerg right, and very beneficial and safe for them? If I don't plant down 2 cannons in his face, he can always defend anything with a hatch first, even better than he would with pool first. But that's beside the point.
Stop throwing the ever so generic "stop bitching" when your precious Random gets called out a bit. The OP asked a question, I just answered why people might dislike playing against random. That's my reason, it doesn't make it true or anything, but I can tell you that many people share this kind of "bitching" with me. "Stupid" or not, that's the way it is. The same way Terran finds it hard to play a macro game vs Protoss these days, you're right about that.
And do you think you're the first one to say that playing random is hard and that you have to play 9 matchups? Do you think I didn't read that somewhere already? We got that for god's sake, we're proud of you, even.
Build gate at nat choke. Prepare for 3 stalk rush. If you scout zerg, build zealots. Done.
Thank you for that. Noted.
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On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope.
Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again.
Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that.
Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.
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On February 24 2012 04:29 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:23 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it. no i don't complain^^ and i never said its easy. i just explained why its not possible to balance random. obviously your friend will lose his non zerg games, because his non zerg match ups are not masters level. but a random player can only be master, if ALL his matchups are master level. so if a random master players against a non random master, they have same skill level, but the random player has an advantage i think your issue is with the ladder system, not the fact that people play random. the fact that a random player knows his race at the beginning of the game is such an insignificant advantage as to not matter to people who are actually good. thats why you dont see people playing random in notable tournaments.
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote: The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what) So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing. You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
What about this argument:
The alleged advantage conferred by choosing random only pertains to ladder play. Therefore, pros are excluded from this alleged phenomenon whereby random entails "non-standard play", and thus forces opponents to do things they are (on average) less comfortable doing, such as adapting to "cheesy random play". One could argue this stress in fact does hamper an opponent on ladder, but that this isn't a factor in pro/tournament play, where there is far less ladder-esque cheese/nonsense/mindgames.
I don't think I even buy any of that, but it's just something to consider in favor of supporting that there is at least some advantage conferred by playing random on ladder. On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. That might actually be why no pros play random. The level at which they play means it's that much harder to practice and maintain that high of a level of play with 2 additional races. This disadvantage probably far outweighs the SLIGHT and *possible* advantage conferred by playing random on ladder, at the pro level.
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On February 24 2012 04:21 Oradri wrote: For me its always annoying playing a random player because i like to know when to wall off or not. Sometimes when i don't wall off, and he gets zerg and does a 9 pool, its hard to hold off without a wall. If i do wall off and hes terran he just scans my buildings from ramp and kills them.
Here let me help
+ Show Spoiler +
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I don't like random players because almost all of them cheese, especially in team games. You don't know what they'll spawn as and they use that to their advantage and cheese you out.
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On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.
I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point?
And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.
And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.
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On February 24 2012 04:36 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope. Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again. Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that. Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.
I have one complain against random players as protoss: taldarin altar.
WTF do you do, really?
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The reasons to play random? It varies heavily. Everybody has their own reasons. It's exciting, challenging, etc. The reasons to hate random? It is an indisputable fact that you will be ranked higher if you play with 1 race rather than playing random. You will simply improve more steadily if you use only 1 race. So this random player is declaring, by playing random, that their subjective reason for playing random outweighs the clear benefit of playing a single race. It's "unreasonable" to play random if you care about rank or skill more than having fun or whatever other reason the random player has (tactical advantage? )
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On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.
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its almost always the same story with a random player... not all but most, its some cheesy all in.
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Most random players I play with always do all ins or cheeses.
Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred
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On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.
oO i would say it does matter.^^
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On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.
Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level.
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Because playing protoss against random zerg is like, I'd probably prefer to get aids and get hit by a bus.
BM not acceptable still.
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On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.
You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument:
If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level.
Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same.
Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.
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On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?
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On February 24 2012 04:44 RogerX wrote: Most random players I play with always do all ins or cheeses.
Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred
Sums up my feelings. I just blindly prepare for cheese every game and scout early, and more often than not the random is doing some silly cheese that isn't even very well executed. It seems like a lot of randoms only make it to where they are at because of this, just catching people off guard by getting scouted lasted or something of the sort so that their poor cheese attempts work. Obviously not all randoms do this, but based on my own ladder experience I'd say more than half of the ones I face do.
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As a lot of people have said a lot of R cheese/one base/all in/do some risky play that takes advantage of the fact that thier opponents don't have as much info about them as the R has against his opponent. Also no one reply knows how to open vs R. Its difficult to pick an opening that will aloe you to play well against all ttheee races.
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As zerg, I feel like people who play random will most likely cheese or do some sort of all in. Knowing this, I always play defensively and safe against random, but if they decide to just play standard macro game, I'm just miles behind because I feel the need to play safe.
So if I'm not on top of my scouting, I'll just fall over and die.
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its very simple.
if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole.
Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random.
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On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?
Well, he just advised me to "PUNISH" a hatch first with a gateway first build on Taldarim, so I would say that his game knowledge is a bit lacking for a GM player.
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i respect new players who go random because they want to learn all the races and figure out which race fits them best but imo i think it'd be easier to practice one race at a time to learn how to play each race properly. it's probably hard to think on the spot what build you want to tackle when there are at least 9 possible match-ups you have to think about
i never say anything but whenever i see a random opponent i cringe a little inside because you are basically forced into doing a super safe build (half of randoms cheese the hell out of you) until you figure out which race they are. meanwhile, they could be doing a greedy build that i can't react to until i find out where they are and what they are doing. also, you can't take advantage of certain maps: if it's a big map and it's pvt i might go nexus first but if they are random and it turns out they are protoss, well i just lost to a 4 gate. meanwhile if they are t and i did a safe build because i don't know what race they are, well then they could have gone 3 fast command centers for free and are ready to defend by the time i find them.
almost half the people i play on ladder cheese, but at least if i know what race they are i can tailor my build toward the cheeses 1 race can do, rather than vs 3.
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On February 23 2012 22:49 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: As a former random player, trust me - people will bm/rage no matter what league you are. Funny enough, when I played random, I also got bm/hate for every possible race that popped up even though I was random.
haha yes same here been flamed so many time for my particular race beeing a noob race back when i played random
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On February 23 2012 22:49 iLLiTHiD wrote: My guess is because most random players, especially in lower leagues, don't play any one race particularly better than the other. So a lot of them settle for one-base all-ins and cheese. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience, random players are much more likely to do one-base plays instead of actually playing a macro game.
And when they do all-in/cheese it's usually not that good since they haven't practiced it optimally. I prefer random players because I know they aren't that solid in my experience.
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As a zerg player I hate the fact that I can be faced in a situation that I rarely have played out and that puts me at a disadvantage, for example:
ZvT Hatch first is so much better, 14/14 can put you at a significant advantage as your creep spread is diminished because you get additional queens a lot later ( 3 and/or 4) and the zergling speed isnt required as quickly. Also the timings are slightly foreign in the matchup. ZvP Hatch first can be death vs a well executed cannon rush on some maps, it also welcomes a pylon wall in and other unusual situations which really, I do not want to play in games. ZvZ I prefer to play 14/14 as I believe this is the least "coin-flippy" of the opening builds as, correctly played, you can still come out ahead vs a hatch first, your pretty safe to an early pool, and if he goes 14/14, well... your safe. If I play hatch first and it turns out my opponent is zerg and I have been 6-9 pooled ( more often the case vs a random player generally ) then that also puts me behind
For me, when I played random, I would tell my opponent what race I was because at the time I just enjoyed playing all 3 races equally as much.
TL;DR I hate guessing opening builds as a zerg player that I haven't played out as often in that m/u
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On February 24 2012 04:36 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote: A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope. Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again. Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that. Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.
Your analogy is dumb. No one agreed to it being a knife fight, so you can't be pissed when someone brings a gun. It's actually like the race-picker was offered a gun and refused. If Random makes it so much easier, pick it and stop bitching.
If people would actually think about the builds they're using and the scouting information they're gathering, rather than regurgitating the latest build order they found on TL, they might figure out a stable way of playing when they don't know their opponent's race for the first ~40 seconds of the game. But no, disruption of their little practice bubble is unthinkable.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2012 04:49 Spieltor wrote: its very simple.
if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole.
Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random.
well said
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On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.
its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
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On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.
Correct. No one on the pro level plays random as it requires you to practice 3 times more than everyone else just to be on their level.
And you get what? Your opponent feeling slightly uncomfortable with his build until he scouts you? It's just not worth it.
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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho
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On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly.
no its not. there are plenty of reasons to switch from random to a race, and none ot them would invalidate my argument.
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On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?
I don't know who randomkorean is or if he is any good at all or if he even said what you are claiming he said, so you've got some pretty weak "evidence".
I don't know of any specific comments from progamers regarding playing random, but what I do know is that a large portion of tournaments do not allow you to play as Random because it is considered imbalanced.
I'm in Masters league btw, and yes I have played all 3 races and yes I have played around with Random before and know how to seriously abuse it for easy wins.
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On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho
like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well...
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On February 24 2012 04:59 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well... your arguments have more circles than the olympic logo.
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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
We had random players at a pro level (GuMiho, GuineaPig) but they started race-picking in order to stay competitive. What does that demonstrate?
EDIT: Wow seriously? He didn't do well, but imagine how well he would have done if he had done well? What sort of black hole of logic is that?
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I hate playing random because they all ways all in. 9 times out of 10 they all in which is why I always blindly prepare for it from a random and get an easy win most of the time
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On February 24 2012 04:59 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you? I don't know who randomkorean is or if he is any good at all or if he even said what you are claiming he said, so you've got some pretty weak "evidence". I don't know of any specific comments from progamers regarding playing random, but what I do know is that a large portion of tournaments do not allow you to play as Random because it is considered imbalanced. I'm in Masters league btw, and yes I have played all 3 races and yes I have played around with Random before and know how to seriously abuse it for easy wins. i just told you he is GM on NA server (as far as I know; I believe he is kOre), and you can read back a few pages to see what he said.
name one sc2 tournament that bans random because they consider it imbalanced? because the GSL allows random and I can't think of a more prestigious tournament.
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It doesn't matter what race, what league, or even what strategy you use. You're going to be raged at for playing OP Zerg, OP Terran, OP Protoss, Cheesey Random Shit, Stupid 1 Base All-in, Idiotic 2 Base All-in, Retarded 3 Base All-in, Fuckin Coin Flip Matchup, Wow WTF No-Skill Dice-roll Strategy......not to mention WTF Lag, OMG MY Mouse cord got stuck, I'm soooo high/drunk looool, and other excuses.
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On February 24 2012 04:58 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. no its not. there are plenty of reasons to switch from random to a race, and none ot them would invalidate my argument.
I have to admit I like this argument. It's a reasonable argument. The pro sample size is small in SC2. Game hasn't been out long enough, and so on, and so forth. But consider this: In BW one can also play random. But in BW, where the pro sample size is massive (game has been established 5-6X longer), we also see no random pro players. Why, if random has a clear, overall, advantage?
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State of the game should talk about this random discussion on there next show
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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
Yes, except nobody can train enough to overcome the fact that you can't play all races at a level equal to somebody who only plays one. Saying we just don't have good R players is completely pointless. We had 2 random players in GSL iirc and both have either not made it to a second individual league appearance (Superstar) or switched races to Terran (GuMiHo). Oh, and GuineaPig picked as well Maybe there were others in the open seasons but seriously, that was just a horrible time. Now, does that mean that random players are genetically predetermined to be inferior and therefore pick random to make up for it but still can't? I doubt it. People should stop blaming random for their losses, they worked hard to get there playing all races and if you're just getting allined evey game that's just a ladder issue. You can always adapt in series play and that's where the real competition is anyways.
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Random is in the game.
There are advantages and disadvantages.
I am having trouble versus protoss. I don't say GTFO of SCII TOSS!!!! YOU IMBA!!! WTF!!!!
I say - hmm - what can I do to improve my vP.
It's easier to place blame to cope with shortcomings. We all do it. It is important to recognize when you are tho, take a step back and reevalutate. Surely MMA did not get where he is by not playing Randoms. Or ragequitting in response to random. He beat them somehow.
As a random player - I act find myself at an advantage in the very late game just due to my where my skill lies with macro mechanics. I have more trouble with mid/meta game. I would say my best skills are Micro and Super Late-Game Macro. My worst are defending timings and forcing myself to not go apeshit and take 4 expos at once. Everyone has different strengths/weaknessess.
A Random player is not just going to win every time (Even on Tal'Darim people, blasphemy, I know). Just like PZandT are not going to win every time. A Random player may occasionally - or more than occasionally cheese - just like a PZ or T player. Everyone suffers BO losses. Everyone gets all-ined. There is no avoiding it.
Maybe you need to improve your vR.
Find a good Random opponent and play him a bunch. Will be good for both of you.
Edit: Spelling
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On February 24 2012 05:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:59 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well... your arguments have more circles than the olympic logo.
all i'm saying saying is it is not possible to play random at pro level, because you have to spent 3 times the time on practice. if a pro practice 10 hours a day, how are going to practice 30 hours a day? its not possible, thats why we don't see random pro players. however, that doesn't refute the fact that random gives you an imbalance advantage
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Even TL hates randoms... no random pics, only race specific for the profile
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Random players are so frustrating to play against because they get a HUGE advantage before the game even starts. Its quite frankly bullshit that random should be allowed. Makes no sense. Ever faced a random on Tal Darim as P. you instantly lose the game because if its zerg and you dont FFE you lost, and if you don't 4gate and its P then you lost. And its impossible to know.
Personally i proxy 2gate random on 2 player maps and 4 gate on any other map.
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For a lot of people it's not that they hate seeing randoms cheese, it's that they are "practicing" (even if they are below masters), and XvR practice is of very questionable value. This is especially true with protoss, where you end up "practicing" your PvT where you have half a wall-in, or maybe your PvP after a 15 nexus.
You'd think the rarity of playing versus random would roughly translate to the rarity of needing to practice essentially three new general playstyles (say PvR[T], PvR[Z] and PvR[P]), but it just feels like a waste of time.
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On February 24 2012 05:00 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 We had random players at a pro level (GuMiho, GuineaPig) but they started race-picking in order to stay competitive. What does that demonstrate? EDIT: Wow seriously? He didn't do well, but imagine how well he would have done if he had done well? What sort of black hole of logic is that?
You're using the term "racepicker" wrongly. It refers to someone who chooses his race depending on his opponent's choice of race, not to someone who always plays the same race regardless. So Morrow who plays ZvT, ZvP, and TvZ is a racepicker.
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Personally for me it just screws up openings, like not FFEing and its a zerg, just puts me more behind than I have tooalso if people are calling you a cheesey random player you are probably doing a cheese not and unusual strat, most randoms cent get past 1-2 base
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On February 23 2012 22:50 Marinechan wrote: When people choose random, their opponent assumes that they're going to cheese.
I guess that's it, haha! 90% of the time, they cheese all the time.
Protoss its usually some 3 /4 gate cheese Zerg its either roach rush/baneling bust, and if it goes past that more cheese terran its standard 1 base play lucky if I even get 20 minute game.
I tend to win against random players in high diamond, they can never seem to beat me, they are usually terrible at macro, or have no follow up pushes. Or just play to turtly.
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On February 24 2012 05:06 Resistentialism wrote: For a lot of people it's not that they hate seeing randoms cheese, it's that they are "practicing" (even if they are below masters), and XvR practice is of very questionable value. This is especially true with protoss, where you end up "practicing" your PvT where you have half a wall-in, or maybe your PvP after a 15 nexus.
You'd think the rarity of playing versus random would roughly translate to the rarity of needing to practice essentially three new general playstyles (say PvR[T], PvR[Z] and PvR[P]), but it just feels like a waste of time.
Seriously, if you 15nex without knowing your opponent's race (you can scout at 9 you know) you deserve the loss. You'd probably have BO losses even knowing your oppenent's race without getting any scout off, lol. Same thing for PvT, how is a pylon and maybe a gate at the top of your ramp a big disadvantage? There's no T allin where you'd want to fight on your ramp...
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Playing against randoms is REALLY annoying. It completely screws up your builds sometimes. For example, my go-to build in tvt is a 1 rax expo, while i go reactor hellion in tvz. However, if my opponent is random, I have to send my scouting scv ridicuosly early to see what race they are before the timing hits to take my gas. A lot of times, even if I scout on like 9 (which is extrememly early and makes my build a lot worse anyways because of lost mining time), i won't even see their race on time to do my correct build. This is especially true on maps like Tal'Darim which are freaking gigantic. Randoms get no respect from me because they exploit a stupid system to get an unfair advantage.
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On February 24 2012 05:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:59 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you? I don't know who randomkorean is or if he is any good at all or if he even said what you are claiming he said, so you've got some pretty weak "evidence". I don't know of any specific comments from progamers regarding playing random, but what I do know is that a large portion of tournaments do not allow you to play as Random because it is considered imbalanced. I'm in Masters league btw, and yes I have played all 3 races and yes I have played around with Random before and know how to seriously abuse it for easy wins. i just told you he is GM on NA server (as far as I know; I believe he is kOre), and you can read back a few pages to see what he said. name one sc2 tournament that bans random because they consider it imbalanced? because the GSL allows random and I can't think of a more prestigious tournament.
Yeah ok he's GM, big whoop, you don't necessarily have to be all that good to get to GM though, I mean plenty of people have gotten to GM with just grinding out games with cheese builds.
I'll retract my statement that SC2 tourneys disallow Random, I was under the assumption that more tournaments did this because the only tournament I have played in had this rule and in SC1 random was eventually banned from most tournaments because it caused the metagame to stagnate and I had just assumed that SC2 was continuing this approach. I guess that in SC2 though this hasn't been as big an issue because most of the progamers already know that Random is a bad way to play and they don't need these Tournaments to enforce picking a race.
Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here:
On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent.
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Sure, but 66.6% of the time, a 15 nex would have been a perfectly viable build, and against a random player probably pretty unpredictable. 66% is way better than most people's win rates, after all. And if I have a wall in PvT or PvP, it gives me a definite disadvantage.
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what i dont really understand about everyone's hate towards random players (e.g., they are cheesy and all-in) is that in my experience, even when i choose my race, the majority of ladder players go cheese and all-ins. O.o
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I love random players....Coincidentally just yesterday I told a random player on ladder how awesome I thought he was XD
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On February 24 2012 05:03 Pusekatten wrote:State of the game should talk about this random discussion on there next show 
This would be nice, it would get the message across to all these people who are willfully ignorant on the issue.
Also, Blizzard could fix the problem incredibly easily, let people pick Random but then have it still show the race they are going to play in the loading screen, problem solved.
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80% of random players I have faced cheese or allin me.. I have grown to hate them
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On February 24 2012 05:06 Zeevo wrote: Random players are so frustrating to play against because they get a HUGE advantage before the game even starts. Its quite frankly bullshit that random should be allowed. Makes no sense. Ever faced a random on Tal Darim as P. you instantly lose the game because if its zerg and you dont FFE you lost, and if you don't 4gate and its P then you lost. And its impossible to know.
Personally i proxy 2gate random on 2 player maps and 4 gate on any other map.
No, you don't. RvX Stats on Tal'Darim would be quite the story if that were the case. If anyone wants to start posting replays to back up their BS Random QQ, I will be glad to use my ImbaRandomSkillz to try to help you improve.
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I hate'em cause they are different
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On February 24 2012 05:15 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:03 Pusekatten wrote:State of the game should talk about this random discussion on there next show  This would be nice, it would get the message across to all these people who are willfully ignorant on the issue. Also, Blizzard could fix the problem incredibly easily, let people pick Random but then have it still show the race they are going to play in the loading screen, problem solved.
I second that, would not have a problem with that. I think it was already suggested to them a couple times but I guess they don't think it's an issue worth adressing...
Sure, but 66.6% of the time, a 15 nex would have been a perfectly viable build, and against a random player probably pretty unpredictable. 66% is way better than most people's win rates, after all. And if I have a wall in PvT or PvP, it gives me a definite disadvantage.
Eh, it dies to 6pool, 2rax (or 2rax rauders), 5-6rax, probably ling/bling all ins, 4gate, 2gate, cannon rush...how is 15nex a 66% viable build? Again, show me how the wall in on top gives you a disadvantage in PvT. I see PvP though.
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the only time i hate random players is when they tell me their race at the start of a game. like wtf?
other than that i suppose generally random players use more strategies designed to end the game early, since they have to spend 3 times as much time to collect as much experience as anyone who picks a race. that's cheese - people get mad when you cheese.
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On February 24 2012 04:04 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:53 Silentenigma wrote: Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:54 KrsOne wrote: I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race. You suck and all you do is abusive all in builds. See how the argument falls apart when you just say random shit? Watch: Your mothers a hippo and all she does is all in builds. Once I ate an octopus and all it did was all in builds. Ten years ago I met a family of Garage Musicians. They sucked and only did abusive power chord builds. Once I was playing poker and lost cause the guy just did cheesy all-ins. Homer Dingleberry elephant night swallowers ate my rumpletweezer and my bubbles kerniggit cheesy all in builds. My argument doesnt fail.I played versus lots of randoms.I have never seen single good random player.Name me a good random player that actually won something.
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The majority of random people i face (plats/diamonds) cheese me. Whenever I play a random player I ALWAYS prepare for cheese.
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On February 24 2012 03:16 ke_ivan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. Yup, I think you nailed it man. Everyone plays safe against random. Random definitely gets to play his normal game while the normal players do not. I think that's a big part of it. This statement is false. I suggest playing random yourselves to see what kind of opponents you get.
After playing some games you will notice that not all opponents play safe openings. One portion of opponents wants to end the game quickly and does a blind cheese such as proxy gates, early pool etc. without knowing what race the random player got. Some opponents start with greedy openers without knowing the random player's race. Both groups trust heavily on Lady Luck. Blind cheeses tend to fail if the random player got 'wrong race' or scouts the cheese. Greedy openers such as cannon ffe will also easily fail if the random player spawned as 'wrong race'.
Random players must take these kind of opponents into account and cannot neglect scouting. It also seems that if the opponent starts complaining how unfair it is that random player's race is not shown or starts trashtalking in the beginning of the match, he is more likely to do a blind cheese or a greedy build.
To sum it up. Random players tend to face a much more varied openers from their opponents for each matchup than race pickers: You get blind cheeses, safe builds, normal openers for each mu, extra greedy builds, etc.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
most random haters in this thread don't even know what they're arguing. it's like how most of the time when i do get flamed it's about the race i randomed to - "terran amove faggot" "enjoy ur mass muta freewin noob " - people will complain about things they can't beat one way or another. check it out:
On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote: See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games".
On February 24 2012 04:02 ZenithM wrote: THIS is why we don't like playing against Random. Not because you're all cheesy. Not because you're all better players than us. Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is...
haha
On February 24 2012 05:00 blade55555 wrote:I hate playing random because they all ways all in. 9 times out of 10 they all in which is why I always blindly prepare for it from a random and get an easy win most of the time  why do you hate random if you get an "easy win most of the time"? do they make sc2 not challenging for you, while your other random haters always lose to them? if they're so predictable, doesn't that by definition mean you will always have an optimal opening to them?
On February 24 2012 05:20 Silentenigma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:04 Arghmyliver wrote:On February 24 2012 03:53 Silentenigma wrote: Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in. On February 24 2012 03:54 KrsOne wrote: I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race. You suck and all you do is abusive all in builds. See how the argument falls apart when you just say random shit? Watch: Your mothers a hippo and all she does is all in builds. Once I ate an octopus and all it did was all in builds. Ten years ago I met a family of Garage Musicians. They sucked and only did abusive power chord builds. Once I was playing poker and lost cause the guy just did cheesy all-ins. Homer Dingleberry elephant night swallowers ate my rumpletweezer and my bubbles kerniggit cheesy all in builds. My argument doesnt fail.I played versus lots of randoms.I have never seen single good random player.Name me a good random player that actually won something. you just made the argument and then failed to understand the conclusion - random players don't win anything because it's too hard. do you think people who pick random magically become bad players? is it just plain damning to anyone else that these random haters in here spout such wildly inconsistent things?
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The people I play who cry about me being random, are the same people who later cry imbalance with whatever race im beating them with in a macro game
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On February 24 2012 05:19 Tal0n wrote: the only time i hate random players is when they tell me their race at the start of a game. like wtf?
other than that i suppose generally random players use more strategies designed to end the game early, since they have to spend 3 times as much time to collect as much experience as anyone who picks a race. that's cheese - people get mad when you cheese.
Noooo. We just have to learn 3 times as many match-ups. You still earn the same amount of XP per win.
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Stop Whining! RANDO FOR LIFE!
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On February 24 2012 04:06 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:49 SupItsG wrote: PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate You know, your general choice involves playing random yourself. Suddenly they don't have an advantage, eh? Of course, you'll have to learn the other two races. So yeah, it's just a trade off. One guy learns 9 matchups, one guy has to live with a less than optimal BO. If you don't like disadvantages vs random, play random. If you feel that wouldn't benefit you, don't. Just don't cry about it (btw, Tal Darim = generally ridiculous map in any PvX matchup).
What's funny is I used to play random until I decided to stick to toss. Your argument is that since I've chosen a race and you haven't and yours gives you an unfair starting advantage that I should give up the race that I enjoy playing most so I can play your race? I don't want to play random, I want to play protoss and I shouldn't be punished for doing so. By your logic every player should just play random. Random vs Random is even worse. The problem could easily be eliminated by showing the race after the random player spawns. Everyone would be happy.
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I am actually trying to play/learn Random, after being bored with playing Z all the time. Zerg is platinum-ish level, and Protoss is like high-goldish. My Terran however just blows ass and is more like bronze-silver level.
The fact I have to play a different MU probably EVERY TIME I play, justifies the extra scouting needed, imho.
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The reason is two fold
1) You don't know their race at the start of the game, most people execute varying early builds based on their opponents race. Because the opponent is random, they are forced to do a very early scout or potentially screw up their build. This is very frustrating to people, and also one of random's greatest advantages.
2) Because random players tend to cheese. Like...90% of them cheese, and by cheese I mean do some one base all in build. And this is understandable because its very difficult to master the macro and intricacies of all 3 races, and their respective match ups. Thats 9 matchups. And ZvT is separate from TvZ etc because when youre actually playing the opposite race, despite knowing the other race's builds its still hard to execute your race's builds if youre not familiar with that race. So thats alot of things to know and practice, so people just do 1 base builds. Knowing all 3 races all-in builds vs the various races is probably the equivalent to knowing the standard builds of 1 race. So its simply not surprising that almost all random players all-in.
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On February 24 2012 05:13 BeeNu wrote:Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here: Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent. You realize you're quoting IdrA on a game balance issue ? :-)
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Randoms almost always cheese. Lower levels it's almost always an all-in, higher levels it's more often economic cheese, with just enough all-in's to make it really infuriating.
Also because people that are random are often much better on ladder than in any form of boX. Winning 1 game on ladder as random is easy, your oponent knows nothing about you, winning a boX even bo3 relies less on luck and more on fundamentals like macro and knowing solid builds.
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On February 24 2012 05:25 bouhko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:13 BeeNu wrote:Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here: On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent. You realize you're quoting IdrA on a game balance issue ? :-)
And you realize that your bias is blinding you from a perfectly reasonable and logical argument?
Just becaus Idra is a whiny crybaby doesn't mean he doesn't have legitimate points regarding balance.
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On February 24 2012 05:22 Kira__ wrote: The people I play who cry about me being random, are the same people who later cry imbalance with whatever race im beating them with in a macro game
Haha so true. Whenever I win R(P)vZ I always get complaints about Force Fields, even if I point out to them that I picked Random and got Protoss. I still play an imbalanced ezmode race.
Contrary to what most ladder warriors believe, 99.9% of people will never compete on the professional level. I can understand why someone like IdrA wouldn't want to practice against Random, because he will almost never face one in a competitive setting (although he likes to complain about an awful lot). But for diamond/masters and below, I think it's hilarious when their diligent practice is so rudely interrupted by a player picking Random. If they always cheese, but it's so easy to beat them in a macro game, what exactly is the problem? You get to practice your cheese defense and/or collect free ladder points and move on.
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i was a random player for quite a while (then Zerg and now im almost exclusively play bw again). I always played standard and I rarely got BM'd, but when I played against other random players i got cheesed quite often so I can understand why everybody is upset.
And the last good random player (excluding TLO in his earlier days) is Testie. The canadian Brood War player who played for ToT) was one of the top foreigners some years ago (I think it was in '05 or '06?).
O I loved Testie...
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I do a lot of awkward openings, not necessarily cheesy that depend on knowing the other players race. Nothing is more annoying than last scouting a protoss or a 6 pool as p
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I play random. Reason? I want to experience every point of view in every situation and enjoy the diversity. But yeah, I get a bit of hate occasionally, especially when I beat someone with their own main race. I also chime in with what korona said earlier, I get blindly cheesed quite often.
And in other news: I'm pretty bad at the game (I'm hanging somewhere in low/mid-master league I guess), and I guess my randoming doesn't exactly help in that regard. Especially since I have very limited time to play. I guess it'd make more sense to spend what little time I have making the most out of one race but..naah.
Oh, and I avoid cheesing. :o Go figure.
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I'm a random player that WANTS to play long games but can't because I get cheesed/all-in'd by the bmer because he thinks I'm gonna cheese/all-in.
(>.<)
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On February 24 2012 05:28 ZasZ. wrote: But for diamond/masters and below, I think it's hilarious when their diligent practice is so rudely interrupted by a player picking Random.
My favorite quote thus far. And for all the people complaining about having to play a different opening, why not just consider random another race? Oh nooooo, you need to learn one more BO, poor you.
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On February 24 2012 05:31 Nifel wrote: I play random. Reason? I want to experience every point of view in every situation and enjoy the diversity. But yeah, I get a bit of hate occasionally, especially when I beat someone with their own main race. I also chime in with what korona said earlier, I get blindly cheesed quite often.
And in other news: I'm pretty bad at the game (I'm hanging somewhere in low/mid-master league I guess), and I guess my randoming doesn't exactly help in that regard. Especially since I have very limited time to play. I guess it'd make more sense to spend what little time I have making the most out of one race but..naah.
Oh, and I avoid cheesing. :o Go figure.
I see why you play Random and it's great that you don't cheese....but...
don't kid yourself. You claim you want to experience every point of view but you aren't actually getting that by playing random, what you are doing is getting a filtered version of what most other players get. If you *really* want to get perspective on all 3 races then just pick a race at random but don't pick Random or else you are forcing your opponent to have to play some sort of stupid universally safe way which you will rarely see in a non-Random matchup.
I used to play Random too and trust me, it's a much different experience than just randomly picking races.
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On February 24 2012 05:27 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:25 bouhko wrote:On February 24 2012 05:13 BeeNu wrote:Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here: On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent. You realize you're quoting IdrA on a game balance issue ? :-) And you realize that your bias is blinding you from a perfectly reasonable and logical argument? Just becaus Idra is a whiny crybaby doesn't mean he doesn't have legitimate points regarding balance.
In that case its another whine from Idra,if random give you an advantage we should see more randoms on GSL
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On February 24 2012 05:35 EllipZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:27 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:25 bouhko wrote:On February 24 2012 05:13 BeeNu wrote:Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here: On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent. You realize you're quoting IdrA on a game balance issue ? :-) And you realize that your bias is blinding you from a perfectly reasonable and logical argument? Just becaus Idra is a whiny crybaby doesn't mean he doesn't have legitimate points regarding balance. In that case its another whine from Idra,if random give you an advantage we should see more randoms on GSL  we would see more randoms everywhere, but we dont, because the so-called advantage is de minimis.
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I'm going to preface this off with: I am a random player.
Now, I'm going to lay some cool stuff on the people that say PvR(Z), and PvR(P), and TvR is unfair on larger maps (for some reason, I don't see a lot of zerg players complain about this).
Random is a race choice. And if you are one of those players that likes build orders and whatnot, you understand that you need a build for each race.
Let's be a little bit more specific now. To those who say "If I don't place my pylon by the front to FFE and the opponent is zerg, I'm behind": you are wrong. Safer builds such as the 3 gate expand are standard vs Random because of their unpredictability. The advantage of such builds is that you can attack earlier on. Remember that it used to be standard to use these builds, and they are (by no means) not bad builds at all.
To those who say "I need to only be building stalkers in PvP, but if they end up being terran, I'm not going to be able to hold earlier on": you are wrong. If you are losing because of things like this, you are simply no experienced enough handling your units vs other units.
To those who say "What if he 6 pools, and I can't tell that he is zerg": There isn't much you can do about that. Place your buildings at standard times, and hold it off as you would against any player.
But don't QQ because "Random is OP." We are a legitimate race, that deserves to be treated like a legitimate race.
I cannot cheese even if I try as hard as I can. As a random player, I never learned the micro that you need to cheese well. If I win (playing macro) I cannot stand it when people say the win was illegitimate. I play the game to their standards, yet never get the respect that anyone deserves when they win a game.
A cool little thing you can do to those people is ask them to play you after with you playing the same race. Then play them at "their" level.
Please excuse my grammar and paragraphing. It sucks.
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On February 24 2012 05:35 EllipZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:27 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:25 bouhko wrote:On February 24 2012 05:13 BeeNu wrote:Also if you want a quote I'll throw this out here: On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote: random isn't bull*%**, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote: you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent. You realize you're quoting IdrA on a game balance issue ? :-) And you realize that your bias is blinding you from a perfectly reasonable and logical argument? Just becaus Idra is a whiny crybaby doesn't mean he doesn't have legitimate points regarding balance. In that case its another whine from Idra,if random give you an advantage we should see more randoms on GSL 
That's not true either, you are drawing biased conclusions with no evidence or context. The reason you will almost never see Random in GSL is because at the very highest levels of play these people are grinding massive amounts of time into trying to be better than everybody else and splitting your focus into 9 matchups. See, on Ladder splitting attention into 9 matchups doesn't matter because it's just a BO1 scenario and everyone you play will have roughly the same level of skill you have whereas in GSL people aren't matched up by their Win/Loss ratio.
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The option to play random only serves people who want to fool around, not people who play to improve. The argument that you play random to learn all the races/matchups is invalid. Even if your opponent would like to, he is most of the time not able to play the proper opening since he doesnt know your race. So you will pretty much always face either a "compromise build" or a "guess build" that in 2 of 3 times was not designed for the race you rolled.
If I'd honestly wanted to learn the matchups, I'd randomly pick a race and then hit the ladder, to make sure I get legit early games to practice.
To me the definition of cheese is if your opening relies on your opponent not knowing what you're doing and you hope to surprise him to win or get ahead. So if you select random and press "find match" you're already cheesing imo, no matter if you play a 6pool or CC first afterwards. Telling the race doesnt help either, because it could always be misinformation (and it is oftentimes).
Not that cheesing would be a bad thing, its a perfectly viable thing to do. It is just a bit of a waste of time to do it consistently in a BO1 ladder imo.
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Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?
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On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? i could care less if my opponent knows, but i dont have a choice because blizzard hasnt implemented the option of showing (and apparently no one believes a random player when they tell their race), riiiiiiiiight?
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Blizzard should just have the random players race announced at the start of the game. Saves everyone headaches.
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On February 24 2012 05:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? i could care less if my opponent knows, but i dont have a choice because blizzard hasnt implemented the option of showing (and apparently no one believes a random player when they tell their race), riiiiiiiiight?
It doenst need to be in the loading screen, it could be in that little box on top right.
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On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?
This really draws on the heart of the issue.
Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine.
But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair because it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine.
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ZvR and PvR offer the random player some pretty strong early game advantages based on the map, but I think the main reason people don't like playing vs. Randoms is because so few opponents are Random. As a result it puts you in an uncomfortable position, and one where some players feel losses are attributed to lack of experience in a situation that they won't see many times in the future anyways, and as a result don't care to prepare for.
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On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine.
I fucking HATE people named BeeNu. FUCK! They're so goddamned entitled. And then they post on things thinking people will sympathize with them or some bullshit. Like they want intelligent conversation or something. Or to understand why they are being flamed so much. Assholes - every single one. Then they try to spew garbage like - "everyone is entitled to a name" and "those letter are in the alphabet too" YOU KNOW THOSE LETTERS ARE IMBA!!!!! stoppitstoppitstoppit! Everyone is in denial except for me. But if you want to stay in denial FINE. Just dont tell me how your stupid name isn't imba when it is. Fuckin B's and E's and N's and occasional U's.
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On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people.
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well if random player gets zerg and you are terran you cant go 11/11 to punish greedy zerg opening , basicly all you can open with is standard rax and gas and random player can exploit it
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If random has such a huge unfair advantage, then why does it have virtually no representation at a masters+ level?
A lot of us just play for fun. We're not evil, manipulative people sitting behind our keyboards twiddling our fingers giggling about how our opponents don't know our race.
Playing one race would bore me, and every time I've tried, I've been like "aw man it would be so fun to do x strategy from this other race", so I just play random for the variety. I'm not training and dreaming of becoming a pro-gamer in Korea. It's a fucking video game to me.
And the whole "all random players cheese" thing is just baseless bullshit imo. I get all-inned by players who choose their race all the time. Probably more often than when I play other random players. In fact, some of my longest games have been RvR.
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I hate most random players, but I don't BM them for it. Some of them only know how to cheese, which is annoying to deal with. Win or lose, it frustrates me to have to deal with it more often than not when playing against random.
But you do on occasion get the random players that tell you their race right off the bat and also play standard macro games. I appreciate that and I'll thank them for it.
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I love reading all the whine in this thread. I am a highish-diamond Random player, and I get BM all the time on the ladder simply because I enjoy going Random. None of it makes any sense whatsoever, and here are a few reasons why:
1) Randoms have to learn 9 matchups. You have to learn 3. Keep in mind that it's not just 9 different over-arching instances of game understanding, but also 3 different sets of hotkeys as well. You're complaining because you have to send an early scout? Please. Try starting every game not having a clue if you're going to 2 rax, fast hatch, or FFE.
2) Everyone on here claims that Randoms only cheese. I hardly ever cheese, because it's simply not as much fun as playing a macro game. Maybe other Randoms do, so I can't speak for them, but I think people who rage against Random players are blowing the problem of cheese way out of proportion. My experience has been that cheesers have their moment of fun, then realize that cheesing or all-inning every single isn't very fun at all and stop playing.
3) Blizzard provided it as a legitimate option. Deal with it. I personally think Medivac drops are cheap and need a nerf because they can instantly win games against Z for missing them. That being said, I don't blame you if you drop me. It's an effective mechanic of which you're simply taking advantage, and the bottom line is that I have to learn to counter it.
4) I play Random because it's more fun for me. I paid $60 for the game, so I want to get my money's worth out of it by enjoying more than just 33% of the game's content. Playing Random has held my interest in the game this long, and will continue to hold it for several more years.
5) I get a kick out of all these people on this thread saying they win the majority of their games against Random players because they take it into the macro game. I have a roughly 50% win rate like anyone else on the ladder, so I imagine most of you have a 50% win rate against Randoms. If you meet a Random on the ladder, you can BM and whine all you want, but the sad truth is that they are capable of playing three races just as well as you can play one.
6) Why are we complaining about cheese anyway? Everyone and their mom could play solely as Protoss and 4-gate their way to the masters league. If you want to complain about cheesy builds, "people playing Random" is the last place you should look.
7) A side note: I find it hilarious when people ask your race at the start of the match, then get upset when you say "Random." I can understand asking in hopes that they tell you, but don't get mad when they don't. Imagine you're playing a TvT and going 1-1-1 and I ask you at the start of the match, "Hey what build are you doing?" Why on EARTH would you tell me and give away information that hurts your chances of winning?
Just think before you BM a Random player next time...it doesn't further your cause. It just makes you look dumb because none of your complaints are logical at all.
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On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people.
I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do [that or they are just trolling, which is probably more likely] with borderline pointless threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't.
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Quite literally every Random player I see on ladder does some form of an all-in, playing off of the fact that as the non-random player, I'm completely in the dark as to what they could be doing until I physically scout them. For example, if I am up against a random Terran who opens CC first, I am forced to go 14/14 (as Zerg), because of the possibility of facing a 10 pooling Zerg. If Terran follows up the immediate expand with mass hellion, not only will my expansion be late, but also my income, production, and creep, which means I then have to pull a miracle defense from a game I started out behind in.
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On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind."
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For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
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On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Doesn't change the fact that randoms need to put in more time to be at the same level though. It seems pretty hard for some people to grasp that they're playing people who put in more time to get to the same level and now get some benefits out of that extra time which would probably have been greater if they practiced one race.
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On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
I don't see the logic in why this would only apply to top levels.
You have to be able to play all three races at least as well as your opponent can play his at any level of play. So whether you're in bronze or in GM, your practice with each race is 1/3rd that of somebody who plays only one race.
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On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Play random then... its part of the starcraft 2 set of rules that we all share like the balance patchs. If you want to compare who's got the bigger one and says its unfair to compare with random player, its BS, since at the very begining you can play random too, and if you don't it probably means you can't.
If you play to win and if random give an advantage, play random : its within the rules of the game. If you play for fun, who the f. care about that small advantage ?
For the record, I don't play random and I really don't mind playing against them. As you say, by playing only 1 race, you have the advantage to know the matchup better than so the random play. Well...
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On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
To all of you propclaiming hatred for anything.
The Dalai Lama was once asked why he didnt hate the chinese for killing his people, taking over and exiling him from his country.
He replied "Would you have them take my mind as well?"
Get Learnt
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I see where most off the ppl is comming from here. If we want a summary of all the situations its like this.
70%
30%
What are these? These are about the correct'ish numbers of random players there are out there. Let's take all of these and put them into 100%.
70% of the random players are usually in lower leagues. It could be either a smurfing player or a guy who actually just goes random for the hell of it. These 70% is usually the ppl who are the " cheesers " and are the ppl pissing their opponents off. The 20% are the ppl who actually play random because they want to learn every race and are going to play on a higher level enventually.
So I understand that ppl actually do whine about it... It's not so fun to get cheese'd - Cannon rush, SCV all-in, 6pool etc. But these are the things that you will have to scout though. Not to sound like " Im better than you since i rarely lose to random ppl since i scout and know how to counter it ". No. This is not the fact. I actually loose 50-50 of my random match ups because i have a poor scouting or i dont know what to do when i see something new. If you win vs a random player or lose, no need to BM, its a game for practice and even if its frustrating to lose them points, just gotta sit up straight and click dat there Find Match button.
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On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind."
Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place. Of course people can still be generally intelligent people and just be unintelligent regarding this issue, but the only knowledge I have of these people comes from the context of this one specific discussion which, if they deny Random imbalance, is a clear display of lacking intelligence concerning the issue and I'm not about to go assuming that they are otherwise perfectly intelligent individuals.
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I really agree with SnareSpectre here. I'm shocked at all the people here who think a Random player is obligated to reveal their race at the start of the match. To me, that's the same as revealing one's spawn location. It won't take you long to figure it out. It feels like Protoss players are overstating it if they complain that they get an automatic BO loss before they can scout their R opponent's race, but I might be wrong -- I'm downright awful with Protoss and I only 6pool against my friends.
I played Terran (badly) in the first two seasons, took a break for a while, and came back playing Random because I prefer the variety of different playstyles and options available to me. And as long as I'm going to be rusty, I may as well try to learn the other two races. I figure, there's a lot more understanding of the game available out there if I'm willing to expand out of my comfort zone.
Just don't expect me to reveal my race.
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If you're having this sort of discussion, you can't cite a player's ability to play multiple races as an argument point, it's too much of a variable. That would be like saying Mutas counter Phoenix because my opponents have bad micro. While it may be true, a non-subjective discussion can't be based off assumptions like that.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved 
BUT I WANT MY PORTRAITS LOL
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On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place. or, you are wrong.
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Imagine you are playing as Protoss and you get matched up against a Random on Tal' Darim. Where are you going to build your first pylon?
Imagine if you scout it last and you face a Protoss so it's PvP instead of PvZ.
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On February 24 2012 05:59 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Doesn't change the fact that randoms need to put in more time to be at the same level though. It seems pretty hard for some people to grasp that they're playing people who put in more time to get to the same level and now get some benefits out of that extra time which would probably have been greater if they practiced one race. This argument has been rehashed over and over. I still don't understand though why putting more time into practicing should give you some artificial advantage. Shouldn't the benefit of practicing more be that you are better than your opponent hence more likely to win? Instead you're saying that practicing more should directly lead to more wins instead of increasing your skill and thereby make you more likely to win. To put it another way: as a random player you practice all nine matchups and hence you will not be as good at ZvP as if you were playing Z exclusively. Then you say you should get some advantage ingame because you also happened to have practiced your TvT (which has very little to do with ZvP).
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I've been playing random lately, mainly started playing other races to learn how to play against them. I (nearly) never cheese, all-in or do any one-base play, unless my opponent is too greedy and I scout it, then I have to. Other than that, my games are nearly always at least 20 minutes (in game). I still seem to get gg's less than half the time, but not much Random BM.
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On February 24 2012 06:07 .kv wrote: Imagine you are playing as Protoss and you get matched up against a Random on Tal' Darim. Where are you going to build your first pylon?
Imagine if you scout it last and you face a Protoss so it's PvP instead of PvZ. Exactly.
People who don't see the problem with this don't play Starcraft.
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On February 24 2012 06:06 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place. or, you are wrong.
Yep, I could very well be wrong. But if you actually think that I am wrong then you actually need to present an argument that gives a decent answer as to why I'm wrong because every single argument I've seen to date in favor of Random being balanced treads into the region of logical fallicies.
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On February 24 2012 06:04 mDuo13 wrote: I really agree with SnareSpectre here. I'm shocked at all the people here who think a Random player is obligated to reveal their race at the start of the match. To me, that's the same as revealing one's spawn location. It won't take you long to figure it out. It feels like Protoss players are overstating it if they complain that they get an automatic BO loss before they can scout their R opponent's race, but I might be wrong -- I'm downright awful with Protoss and I only 6pool against my friends.
I played Terran (badly) in the first two seasons, took a break for a while, and came back playing Random because I prefer the variety of different playstyles and options available to me. And as long as I'm going to be rusty, I may as well try to learn the other two races. I figure, there's a lot more understanding of the game available out there if I'm willing to expand out of my comfort zone.
Just don't expect me to reveal my race. Why wouldn't you reveal your race? Because you need your opponent to be in the dark and use a suboptimal opening for you to win? Seriously, how can one possibly justify not revealing their race? Aren't you playing the game to get better, don't you prefer to know that you beat someone playing their best?
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On February 24 2012 06:04 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:54 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 05:47 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 05:43 XiGua wrote: Random players should show their race in the loading screen. No reason not to if the only reason random players play random is to try out all 3 races.
Because you random players aren't really playing random for that advantage that everyone complains about, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? This really draws on the heart of the issue. Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance, fine so be it unless Blizzard changes it not much to be done about it and obviously everybody has the right to play Random if they want to, again, not much I can do about it it's not my call to make so whatever. I don't really get mad about people playing Random, if I meet them on ladder I'll just leave at the start because I see it as a complete waste of time, whatever that's fine. But what does annoy me is people trying to justify playing Random with half-assed illogical arguments that make no sense and then they go on to make threads like this to try and garner sympathy for when people do rage at them. No, if you play Random expect people to hate on you and own up to the fact that you are taking advantage of an imalance, don't spew bullshit at me and try to convince me that playing Random is totally fair becasue it's not, just be honest about it and we can get along just fine. why do people in this thread keep prefacing all their arguments with insults to people who disagree with them? it makes you look foolish, not the other people. I didn't insult anybody. I said people make threads like this to garner sympathy because many of them do with threads like "why do ppl get mad when I cheese?" or whatever. Aside from that the closest thing I said that comes close to an insult is my claim that people are "spewing bullshit" which is true if what they are saying doesn't actually make a logical argument, which it doesn't. you said that "Everybody with a semi-intelligent mind knows that Random gives an imbalance," which means that if people disagree with you, they don't have a "semi-intelligent mind." Yes and I stand by that statement. Being intelligent requires utilizing the powers of judgement and understanding and the only way you can argue that playing Random does not give any advantage whatsoever is if you have not actually taken any time into understanding the issue or you are unable to comprehend the issue in the first place.
Or you're wrong and yet condescending. You can pick random to equalize the advantage. You don't, instead you choose one race to have an easier time, learning less stuff. Now random players have an advantage. You gave up that advantage for another advantage. One is out of game, one is in game. If you weigh one more heavily you may make your choice. If it's just about playing the race you like, that's not an argument which determines balance.
I don't like to play low two-pair poker. I can just never enter a pot with it but that's not really the fault of the game, eh?
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A siginifcant part of the random players in lower league are people trying to farm the portraits. The fastest way to do so is playing random in a lower league and then worker rush or some cheese Think this is one reason random players might have a bad name.
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On February 24 2012 06:07 Legatus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:59 Timerly wrote:On February 24 2012 05:56 Innovation wrote: For all those that are using the BS "if random is so good why isn't GSL dominated with them" argument.
You have a very simplistic understanding of the game. At the very highest levels of competition random looses it's advantage because it is impossible to practice all three races enough to be that skilled with all of them. HOWEVER that does not occur until well into the GM level of play. So for 99% of players below that level random still holds an advantage.
The thread is asking "why do people hate randoms?" this is why.
Doesn't change the fact that randoms need to put in more time to be at the same level though. It seems pretty hard for some people to grasp that they're playing people who put in more time to get to the same level and now get some benefits out of that extra time which would probably have been greater if they practiced one race. This argument has been rehashed over and over. I still don't understand though why putting more time into practicing should give you some artificial advantage. Shouldn't the benefit of practicing more be that you are better than your opponent hence more likely to win? Instead you're saying that practicing more should directly lead to more wins instead of increasing your skill and thereby make you more likely to win. To put it another way: as a random player you practice all nine matchups and hence you will not be as good at ZvP as if you were playing Z exclusively. Then you say you should get some advantage ingame because you also happened to have practiced your TvT (which has very little to do with ZvP).
Controlling all three races well is an increase of skill, it's just not apparent at the point of view inside a single game.
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Canada9720 Posts
This is one of those perennial topics that we've sort of discussed to death. Sorry
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