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On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else.
I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I did read, no one called it imba. Just merely pointing out that it is very annoying to deal with early game. As a Toss player if a random gets zerg I'm pretty much fucked... with no FFE I'm at an instant disadvantage. Not to mention as pointed out many times... I get cheesed more often then not by random players. Not saying they are imbalance and I really don't hate or have a problem with random players at all. Just answering OP's question of why people BM random players.
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On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote:
The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what)
So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view
You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing.
You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
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On February 24 2012 00:24 Samp wrote:
I dont BM the random players, but I dont like facing them.
A lot of them cheese or have no clue what they are doing so everything is late and that can catch someone off guard.
But cheese, mostly cheese.
There's also this shitty feeling when you win because you feel like it wasn't rewarding at all. Kind of the opposite sometimes.
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Because if your zerg and the other guy is random AND doesnt tell you his race you have a 1/3 chance to die. You go pool first hello 2 rax gg. you go hatch first hello canon rush and 6 pool.
Im fine if random tells race and doesnt abuse opening advantage but not telling race is just the most annoying thing in sc2
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they yust ahte it when they dont know what oppening to use
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Well, when I do meet a random player on ladder, in 90% of the cases we will throw an all-in on me. That's for sure, I know it right when I see the loading screen and therefore win most of those games, cause I'm prepared. (sometimes I lose, cause I get to scout them late or can't figure out the right all-in (in case of protoss for ex.)) But it sucks if you want to train your mid-endgame mechanics and multitasking, and also playing only vs all-ins is no real fun. If random players would tend to normal standard play, which of course is very hard for them, then they would get less hate from their opponents  .
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......when u random....you gain a pretty big advantage...protoss can't do anything but wall off....unless we get lucky and get your first scouting location
People who say "Lawl they just BM everything" need to sit back and look at the problem with it...1gate/expo against zerg = zerg gets WAY ahead...
Walling off against a protoss...basically means those buildings u placed will get sniped...yay!!! Random!
aainst terran...once again they snipe ur buildings...
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when i get matched vs random player im 95% sure that its gonna be some proxy cheese or 1 base allin. There are no 'good' random players in master league. All are cheesy @#$*^%@.
Just played a random who rolled zerg. Obviously roach ling allin transitioning into roach burrow allin transitioning into roach infestor into dying. All on 35 drones.
Playing vs random players is a waste of time.
BTW if you are Protoss and say that you have 'build order loss' if u play agains random zerg, then there's something wrong with you. FFE isnt the only viable build.
User was warned for this post
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haha, im a masters random player, and i pretty much never cheese... however I get cheesed pretty much 50% of the games because my opponents tell me they don't want to play against random players.
Now I mostly tell my opponents my race in the start of the game... but they never believe me 
Edit: Ah yes see the person above for a good example :D
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On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote:
As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh.
Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead.
You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
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I dislike playing vs random (I dont BM, but I'm not happy) because
1) I don't know how to open. I know how the pro players open ZvZ, ZvP and ZvT, and what the risk/rewards are for the different openings, but how are pros playing ZvR? Answer is: they don't.
2) They tend to cheese, and I while it is part of the game, I already get enough cheese on bnet thank you very much.
I'm not placing any judgements on right and wrong here, just that these two are the reasons why I personally go ":/" when I see a random on the load screen.
In a way I respect random players because they have learned to play all three races, but on the other hand I don't, because in most cases they haven't. 
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On February 24 2012 00:29 Kira__ wrote:haha, im a masters random player, and i pretty much never cheese... however I get cheesed pretty much 50% of the games because my opponents tell me they don't want to play against random players.Now I mostly tell my opponents my race in the start of the game... but they never believe me
THAT'S THE POINT BRO :D
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I dont like random players cause so far i've only met one random player who went into a macro game and actually beat me at it. Other random players will just pick some random cheese to do which pisses me off.
I JUST played a random player who went proxy barracks into 2 port banshee. The previous one i played went 4 gate. I know its hard to learn all builds/timings of all matchups and all races but to the people playing random players, its just annoying that all they do are one base builds..
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On February 24 2012 00:26 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:
Because if your zerg and the other guy is random AND doesnt tell you his race you have a 1/3 chance to die. You go pool first hello 2 rax gg. you go hatch first hello canon rush and 6 pool.
Im fine if random tells race and doesnt abuse opening advantage but not telling race is just the most annoying thing in sc2
sooo true. Playing randoms gives a huge advantage in the 'build order choice' game.
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On February 24 2012 00:28 DrGreen wrote:
when i get matched vs random player im 95% sure that its gonna be some proxy cheese or 1 base allin. There are no 'good' random players in master league. All are cheesy @#$*^%@.
Just played a random who rolled zerg. Obviously roach ling allin transitioning into roach burrow allin transitioning into roach infestor into dying. All on 35 drones.
Playing vs random players is a waste of time.
BTW if you are Protoss and say that you have 'build order loss' if u play agains random zerg, then there's something wrong with you. FFE isnt the only viable build.
Why are you so mad? The fact that you sare there are no 'good' random players in Master League, and that all of them are cheesy *expletives* invalidates the rest of your post. I am in Master League (whether I'm 'good' is obviously subjective) and I am not a cheesy *expletive*.
Take your broad-stroke generalizations somewhere else. It's true that the stereotype exists for a reason, which is why you might scout a little bit better than you normally do (how unthinkable!), but assuming you are a good player, the no-skill random cheeser shouldn't pose much of a problem. Collect your ladder points and move on to the next match.
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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote:
As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
You are wrong You can't stop two rax properly executed if you go 14/14.
You can stop it if you go 12 / 11, or 11 / 12. But that's an all in baneling cheese build that shouldn't work if scouted vs P or T.
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else. I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I did read, no one called it imba. Just merely pointing out that it is very annoying to deal with early game. As a Toss player if a random gets zerg I'm pretty much fucked... with no FFE I'm at an instant disadvantage. Not to mention as pointed out many times... I get cheesed more often then not by random players. Not saying they are imbalance and I really don't hate or have a problem with random players at all. Just answering OP's question of why people BM random players.
Here are a couple of quotes, with my emphasis:
On February 23 2012 23:27 UmiNotsuki wrote:
At diamond level at least, the vast, vast majority of random players cheese every game. This can be enraging because being random imparts an unfair advantage upon you until your opponent determines your race, which makes random cheese imbalanced and particularly difficult to hold off in most spawn positions on most maps.
I personally have a high diamond random friend who does not cheese and is actually very good at macro games with all three races. It's not impossible, but it takes a lot more dedication. But that's one random player who's not cheesed me out of nearly all the random's I've ever played. It gets frustrating before long.
As a community, most people don't want "Random" to be an option simply because it provides an unfair advantage to the random player. A proper solution would be to display the player's race on the loading screen, perhaps as "Random: Zerg," for instance, but because very few people play random it's not become a large enough issue to force Blizzard to take action (yet.)
On February 23 2012 23:54 [thork] wrote:
because random is imba. it changes your build order.
you have to play safe, wall off. you can not forge expand. etc...
This "randoms have a major advantage" bullshit keeps getting thrown around. No one has answered why there are no top pros playing random. Think about it, this fact alone utterly destroys your whole point.
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On February 24 2012 00:24 Slapshot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game. Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible I meant that you don't have to pick random to experience different races. You can just pick a race for each different game or roll a dice like has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
Thats how I do it, but really the only reason to do that is to not inconvenience your opponents. Most people wont want to bother switching races just for that purpose, easier to just set it to random and keep clicking find match.
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I'm not saying that I have a negative opinion of random players, but it is logical to expect someone who has to cover all 6 matchups, ZvZ, ZvT, ZvP, TvP, PvP, TvT to cut corners or cheese instead of taking the time to learn all of the possible matchups in-depth.
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On February 24 2012 00:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:23 aebriol wrote:
As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh. Agree with 15 Hatch being hard to hold against Forge-first openings, but in what world does 14/14 lose 100% of the time to 2 Rax? As long as you scout it and don't let any Bunkers go up, the faster speed should help you squash it ezpz. If it's something cheesy like proxy or 11/11, you may not be able to expand as early as you like, but you'll still come out ahead. You can make 14/14 work in every matchup as long as you're flexible with your scouting information and able to react accordingly.
Zergs stopped using it against Terran because it allows the terran to build 3 bunkers at the bottom of your ramp since you don't have the hatch there. Yes you might be able to stop it but if the terran is good he's going to have it up.
Even if he doesnt 2 rax you're stuck with a worthless ling speed and bad eco while he can do whatever he wants.
Finally if you put your hatch down around 20 supply (standard expand after 14/14) you won't have spines in time for the hellion harass.
It's just really bad, which is why I don't like playing against random like aebriol said, you have to open 15 hatch or you die against terran, if he ffes you die, if he 9 pools you die.
Might as well roll a dice =D
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EPT
