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On February 24 2012 00:05 LucidityDark wrote:
I guess the middle ground between removing random and keeping it would be the system declaring which race has been picked for the for all to see. That would even up the immediate advantage given to such players.
This would be the most logical fix and I'm suprised they haven't done it yet given that you can random in competitive play.
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On February 23 2012 22:56 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +Why don't you pick a random race at the beginning of each ladder game instead of picking random ? Problem solved  And this is so true, the only reason you would be picking random is to not show your race that could occur confusion for your opponment.
Exactly ... stop with "roll the dice" or something like that. We want this advantage!
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I play Protoss, so my first pylon is almost always in a different position whether I'm against Zerg or I'm against Terran/ Protoss. Not knowing the race of my opponent puts me at an inherent disadvantage, as I'm forced to do some middle-of-the-road build that always involves gateway first (never FFE, or at least a wall, which is the normal in PvZ but not done in PvT or PvP).
Also, I get 6pooled and 8pooled by Random Zergs more frequently than I get 6pooled or 8pooled by regular Zergs. Same with proxy 2gates or 2rax. I don't mind the concept of cheese at all, and I understand that it's a legitimate part of the game, but playing against a Random limits your choices early on, as you need to be safe from 3x as many cheese builds, all the while recognizing that the opponent could be simply fast expanding, giving him a huge lead anyway.
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People hate random for the same reason why hating other races, which is "abusing" the race's strenghts:
Advantage random: Unpredictable during early game
As the goal of the game is to win, its likely to assume and normal that the players utilize this advantage, sadly in this case its often exploiting the early game (cheese?). However random players are often weaker in the regular meta-game as they have less race specific experience.
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PvR's a pain because of build order losses.
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1) because random often cheeses, I'd say 3/4 of the time I face a random player, they're cheesing
2) because if you can't manage to scout the random player by 14 supply or so, your build order can be totally fucked up. Especially as zerg, I do something different against each race... If its terran you might hatch first, but thats auto lose vs z and P... if its protoss you might pool hatch, but thats a really tough build to defend with in zvz... so basically by picking random you get a large chance to win the game by coinflip randomness and not skill
3) coinflip randomness.... starcraft2 should have as little inherent random chance as possible. This isnt warcraft or some other cutesy RPG. Every action and result should be deliberate.
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If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else.
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Because most people hate every race that they dont play, each for different reasons. The main reason that people hate random is that on 4 player maps, you cant react to information when choosing your build. You dont have any information to work with when you spawn, but the enemy does, and this puts you at a disadvantage, however small it may be.
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I'm glad I play Terran, I can just 1RExpand whatever race there is.
It's still pretty annoying when they do their shitty all ins though.
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As I moved up on the ladder the amount of random players using all-ins significantly decreased but I still hate to play versus them as you can basically throw your build out of the window which makes the game feel useless for practice. On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game.
I agree that it would be the best solution to show the race on the loading screen for (at least) 1v1 games and if most people do it is time to let Blizzard know as changing this probably isn't a huge deal.
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The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what)
So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view
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On February 24 2012 00:15 darkscream wrote:
1) because random often cheeses, I'd say 3/4 of the time I face a random player, they're cheesing
2) because if you can't manage to scout the random player by 14 supply or so, your build order can be totally fucked up. Especially as zerg, I do something different against each race... If its terran you might hatch first, but thats auto lose vs z and P... if its protoss you might pool hatch, but thats a really tough build to defend with in zvz... so basically by picking random you get a large chance to win the game by coinflip randomness and not skill
3) coinflip randomness.... starcraft2 should have as little inherent random chance as possible. This isnt warcraft or some other cutesy RPG. Every action and result should be deliberate.
1. Cheese is part of the game. Would you tolerate someone complaining about fog of war? No, because it's part of the game. Accept it and move on.
2. Then your build was crap to begin with. If you start the game wanting to go straight to a macro play, but you see you oponent forcing you to repel a simple rush, do you also complain your build order is "totally fucked up"? Why are you entitled to a predetermined build order, no matter what the other guy does in the game? Adapt your build and move on.
3. BW also had random, you must really hate that game too.
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On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game.
Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible
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On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
If random is so imba, play random for a week and see how that goes. There are no top pros playing random because it's a lot harder to win consistently as random. No amount of bullshit rationalizing can change that. Just look at the numbers and realise you are deluding yourself. If you mostly lose vs random it's because you play bad builds vs random, it's as simple as that.
The prejudice in this thread is astounding, not to mention the lack of logic of the most popular views expressed here. Random forces you to play differently? So does every other factor in the game, from the oponents' build order, his location on the map, his army positioning, etc. Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly. It's your fault and nobody else's. Stop blaiming your laziness and your lack of strategy on somebody else.
^
Hey now don't be rational, your breaking from the thread's trend. It's not like Random players have shit to deal with too when they are random, don't know what race they are before the game starts, and know how to work 3 different races instead of 1. Shucks man get it together.
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Random players are no real practice, unless you say your race at the beginning. Also often times cheese, and no macro games. That's why people might say to you "waste of time".
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Okay, in fact, only protoss players rage because they dont know where put they first pylon.
Ok i'm fine now, i got my answer.
close topic :D
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As a zerg, if you don't open 15 hatch, you should die 2 rax. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
However, if you 15 hatch, you should die to forge expand. 100% of the time. Assuming equal skill.
And if you meet a random zerg and he doesn't want to play zvz, he 6 pools ...
So 14/14 is autoloss vs terran 2 rax, and fine in the other two matchups, and 15 hatch is autoloss vs protoss, and can be vs zerg if he decided to cheese.
Losing 1/3rd of the matches automatically is kinda bleh.
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as a zerg whenever i play vs random i always play vs the 'worst case scenario' which is assuming a zvz. So if i want an expansion i go 9 scout and if not i do 14/14
I suppose, though, that gas speed is versatile enough that zerg does 'best' vs random? Or maybe they're easiest to abuse. I'm kind of interested in XvR stats now
EDIT: I'm curious how 14/14 is auto loss to 2rax. not enough larva?
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On February 24 2012 00:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On top of that I don't understand why someone would want to play as random instead of picking a race for each game as you don't get to experience the real matchups when your opponent has to adapt his play in the early stages of the game. Because playing a different race in every game is much less monotonous than sticking to a single race. Not everyone plays with the intention of getting better at the game as efficiently as possible
I meant that you don't have to pick random to experience different races. You can just pick a race for each different game or roll a dice like has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
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I dont BM the random players, but I dont like facing them.
A lot of them cheese or have no clue what they are doing so everything is late and that can catch someone off guard.
But cheese, mostly cheese.
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EPT
