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On December 29 2011 07:10 Retrospecd wrote:
Or you could just read the guides on playdota.com...reading these half thought 3 sentences doesnt provide you with anything and you will end up having to look up an actual guide anyway. So you've effectively wasted time looking at these to only have to go and read the actual guide.
I don't see the point because reading the actual guide you will be able to gather these 3 sentences easily and much more knowledge that is actually required to play a hero effectively.
Honestly, these guides are probably better than the guides on playdota. I feel like 95% of all dota guides I have ever seen are worthless for anyone with any experience. They are written for pub games, and assume 2-1-2 laning. Recently, there has been an improvement in quality, but most guides are dated to some degree.
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IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?
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Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?
I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight
On December 31 2011 20:32 Resent wrote:
IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?
I've just been sticking to Wards, Magic Stick, Boots, Courier (+ Flying) and then trying to get what I can from there.
Kinda hard to farm items like Scepter and Sheep unless you get to farm empty lanes (which I feel kinda lame doing, mostly because I hate it when supports do it when I'm not supporting lol) or get a bunch of early kills/towers.
Items like Force Staff/Mek/Point Booster are good starts IMO, a blink is great if you can afford it.
But I just put wards as a priority tbh, whilst things like Point Booster/Force Staff/mek are great, they don't really have that dramatic of an effect on the game like a Manta on a Carry and the best defense against dieing is being able to avoid it where possible
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On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?
I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight
It's just all round quite good. Gives life steal, armour ,hp regen and you can get a neut creep which you can either use in battle, for scouting or to stack ancient camps. I only see Drow and late game Dragonknight builds going it though I think. Drow gets crazy damage without tons of items so some more survivability is good and well Dragonknight is just a fat tank and with some good ancient stacking can easily deal with 4 stacks with Fire/Frost dragon. However I also see DK go pipe/jango build when team is going super push so I guess it depends on what team is doing.
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On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?
I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight
Generally most carries get some kind of hp regeneration so they can more easily stay on their lane and farm up. This goes for neutral farming, or just because you tend to take some damage once in a while to control the lane properly. If this is vanguard, perserverace -> battlefury, hood, a ring of health or a dominator mainly depends on the hero. Some heroes can decide depending on game and opponents, while others (drow, luna) is fairly limited. Generally only dominator makes sense on drow out of these items, so people tend to get that.
Also, dominator gives good bonuses for the price. Armor + dmg and lifesteal, plus the ability which can be utilized as well.
Both drow and luna are ranged, and heroes that need bkb at some point, so vanguard is less effective, and you don't want to buy hood either. Battlefury doesn't make much sense either so those two heroes generally make dominator.
Heroes like AM, BH, Void, PL, Jugger, DK can all make different meaningful choices, so they are less likely to make dominator.
Just my perspective :>
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I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price
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i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.
lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.
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On December 31 2011 22:32 Dommk wrote:
I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price
It's not really 'how much', it's more like something or nothing (base regeneration). It enables you to stay full hp on the lane/wood. Smaller items does as well, but dominator does provide the usefulness of a creep (if used effectively) and it's a very important late game item (satanic), and get's an effect pretty much as soon as the first big aggresive item is up (butter, mkb, buriza, perhaps manta).
Not to say it's a must, but I think that's the key reason.
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On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?
I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight
the problem is ur assumption right here yo
there's very few heroes where hotd first is standard, and where it is standard it usually makes sense
drow and luna do a good amount of damage early on in the game, so hotd gives a reasonable amount of survivability and lets them jungle really fast
hotd first on dk isn't really standard, usually armlet and bkb are better (or pipe and jango if ur chinese)
it's the same idea in hon with mq, puppet, and mali
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On December 31 2011 22:36 BurningSera wrote:
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.
lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.
this is supposed to be a joke right
cus if it is it's not very funny
edit2: okay I'll bite
the builds are mostly pretty standard across all 3 regions (US/EU/asia). generally US/EU players use the same builds, while asia might change up a couple
the gondar build in question was standardized by chinese comp teams, though it isn't exactly an innovative build
pa is a useless hero with zero useful skills that can make a passable lategame carry if you can hold out 4v5. to put that into perspective, spectre, troll, am, and void are heroes that are more useful than pa in literally every single stage of the game (including lategame). gondar has track, jinada, permainvis, and a hefty nuke that ministuns
in terms of role, gondar is probably most comparable to slardar; he spends early-mid game farming up, midgame killing things, and lategame still killing things
but read what I have bolded there and get back to me
"read" because I can't imagine you actually read that before you posted it
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On December 31 2011 22:36 BurningSera wrote:
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.
lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.
Yea, all the US teams basically practice versus Europeans. This isn't meant to be a guide for the next EG when they go over to Asia; this is meant for anywhere from low/mid-skill ladder all the way up to inhouse league level play. The Chinese actually go janggo bkb on bounty hunter usually, and mostly afk with him early game trying to leech exp while invis. Similarly, windrunner might be played as a support with arcane boots / mek. If that's your game plan for matchmaking... well good luck ever winning. The optimal strategy in 6.72f / 6.73 is fairly push oriented, and calls for a lot more early game builds, but I'm assuming you're not actually playing against IG or DK in this guide, and have a bit more time to get your build together.
Just because you find bh's afk farming in your ladder games doesn't mean the builds they might try to do are wrong; the whole point of the battlefury build is you have longevity to stick around and track / shuriken everything whenever there's a fight, but can also go back and push a lane or jungle when there's no action. Once again, these builds are not meant for playing the highest tier matches, but that should have been fairly obvious I thought...
Edit: Also, 40 minutes? What the hell, which of these builds would take 40 minutes to farm for a competent player? My bh suggestion is literally, battlefury bkb. If that takes more then 30 minutes then you've already lost.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 31 2011 20:32 Resent wrote:
IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?
Look at the support items:
Mekansm, Urn, Janggo, Force Staff, Medallion, Pipe (in roughly this priority order, though it will vary from game to game depending on the need for each)
Pick 1-2 that aren't being bought by your teammates.
If you're really getting fed enough (people running around and not clearing lanes, forcing you to go farm them, or just picked up lots of kills), work toward BKB/Aghs/Blink in whatever order is most sensible for the game.
On December 31 2011 22:32 Dommk wrote:
I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price
Consider just the creep-stacking aspect. If you get about 100 gold from a creep camp, then over 10 minutes the item has more than half paid for itself. If you're using it to stack ancients that's more like 300 gold per camp, and it'll half pay for itself after having stacked the camp 3 times.
At the point where HotD has paid for half its own cost, it's cost-effective for the damage alone. The armor, the regen, the lifesteal, and the creep which can have an extra slow/stun/root or an aura is effectively free.
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It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?
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On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?
Just get mask of madness instead (cheap way to make yourself useful). BKB is always useful, but if other team doesn't have many disables you can skip it. Orb items are fine on void. Butterfly is very nice on void because evasion stacks with timelapse, but MKB is fine if you need the trueshot for some reason.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?
First of all, I will say that I disagree slightly with 5-s's build for FV--IMO Faceless Void should get Manta Style after Battlefury, and before the situational stuff like BKB. The utility of Manta Style is just too good to skip (the active not only gives you the DPS/pushing power of the illusions, but gives you 0.1 second invuln, removes all purge-able debuffs from you, forces your opponents to spend valuable time figuring out which one the real you is, etc.). Proper Manta usage makes it one of the most powerful and versatile DPS options available for a carry.
Battlefury-based builds are the most stable option for Faceless. Unlike someone like Anti-mage, Faceless doesn't have a bunch of reliable damage from abilities like Mana Break/Mana Void--he requires more itemization for his damage, so going a more midgame-skewed build like Vanguard->Manta is less likely to produce acceptable results. MoM-based builds are fairly popular in pub games, but IMO they are somewhat gimmicky.
BKB, as always, is situational. Prioritize it based on how much a threat magic damage/CC is, though other pure survivability options are not bad for FV either (e.g. Heart). MKB vs. Butterfly is again, situational. Butterfly is probably the better buy unless the True Strike is significant.
Most orbs are just not that good for FV (not anything to do with them being orbs--just the items themselves not suited for his needs). Manta is overall a better item to build your Yasha into than S&Y. BFury already covers your farming power needs (and is hence redundant with Maelstrom/Mjollnir). Stygian isn't that well-rounded of an item, and doesn't really have any specific synergy with FV's kit or his power curve. Diffusal, as always, is a situational buy depending on how useful the passive/active are.
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On January 02 2012 06:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void? First of all, I will say that I disagree slightly with 5-s's build for FV--IMO Faceless Void should get Manta Style after Battlefury, and before the situational stuff like BKB. The utility of Manta Style is just too good to skip (the active not only gives you the DPS/pushing power of the illusions, but gives you 0.1 second invuln, removes all purge-able debuffs from you, forces your opponents to spend valuable time figuring out which one the real you is, etc.). Proper Manta usage makes it one of the most powerful and versatile DPS options available for a carry. Battlefury-based builds are the most stable option for Faceless. Unlike someone like Anti-mage, Faceless doesn't have a bunch of reliable damage from abilities like Mana Break/Mana Void--he requires more itemization for his damage, so going a more midgame-skewed build like Vanguard->Manta is less likely to produce acceptable results. MoM-based builds are fairly popular in pub games, but IMO they are somewhat gimmicky. BKB, as always, is situational. Prioritize it based on how much a threat magic damage/CC is, though other pure survivability options are not bad for FV either (e.g. Heart). MKB vs. Butterfly is again, situational. Butterfly is probably the better buy unless the True Strike is significant. Most orbs are just not that good for FV (not anything to do with them being orbs--just the items themselves not suited for his needs). Manta is overall a better item to build your Yasha into than S&Y. BFury already covers your farming power needs (and is hence redundant with Maelstrom/Mjollnir). Stygian isn't that well-rounded of an item, and doesn't really have any specific synergy with FV's kit or his power curve. Diffusal, as always, is a situational buy depending on how useful the passive/active are.
I find that's really misleading actually...
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.
Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV.
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own.
The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it.
And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.
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since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes
that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota
but I dissagree with almost your entire post too
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On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else. Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV. Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own. The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it. And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.
You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.
Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.
Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful.
Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's).
On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota but I dissagree with almost your entire post too
That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.
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On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:
You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.
Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.
That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.
No, you build battlefury when you have a good laning phase. Battlefury provides no real benefit compared to ring of health, vangaurd is what you get when you have a bad laning phase. Also, sven and magnus are the heroes that battlefury is a luxury for. It is core on melee carries that use it to farm and continue to benefit in the late game.
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