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[G] 5-s' 30 second guide to every hero

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5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 21:57:48
December 27 2011 05:35 GMT
#1
In short, I wrote a guide on every hero in dota about 2 years ago. That guide is now horribly outdated, but with the arrival of many new players to Dota 2, a short build + tips guide on ever hero seems more useful now then ever. I present, 5-s' 30 second guide to every hero. This is not meant to be exhaustive, obviously, and suggestions are certainly welcome.

The format is as follows:
Hero Name the Hero Title

Which lane / role is recommended. (I will use the terms short or long name to refer to the bottom / top lane for the radiant, and the opposite for dire).
How to skill the hero
Boot Type
Core Items (usually only 2-3)

My hope is that people can just control + f on a new hero they haven't used before, and read in 30 seconds the build they need. Hope it's useful!

+ Show Spoiler [Strength Heroes] +
Kunkka the Admiral
Solo mid, or dual/trilane with stunners
Max tidebringer by lvl 7, 3 levels of torrent by lvl 8, 2 levels of x by 10 (to be able to do your x + torrent combo sooner), then finish off torrent at 12
Phase Boots
Invisibility Sword, battlefury

Rexxar the Beastmaster
Solo mid
Max call of the wild first, axes second. Some people get one point of inner beast at 4.
Treads or phase
Blink, Gem, Necronomicon, sometimes vanguard

Bradwarden the Centaur Warchief
Solo mid, jungle (requires pulling), or dual/trilane
One point in return by level 4, max hoof stomp, then double edge
Phase
Hood (pipe), Blink Dagger

Raigor Stonehoof the Earthshaker
Dual/trilane, or full time roaming
Max fissure, then aftershock, with one point in enchant totem at lvl 4
Arcane Boots
Soul Ring, Blink Dagger

Purist Thunderwrath the Omniknight
Solo mid, or dual lane
Max purification first; other skills depend on situation and what you need. Generally mix some repel and degen aura.
Arcane Boots
Soul Ring, Mekanzm

Mangix the Pandaren Brewmaster
Dual/trilane
Max Thunder clap, one point in drunken haze at some point, then drunken brawler. Some people like to skill some stats at level 2 and/or 4, due to small low mana pool.
Phase Boots
Ultimate Scepter, Blink Dagger

Sven the Rogue Knight
Dual/trilane or full time roaming
Storm bolt and stats, start getting warcry as needed later, and great cleave only late game.
Treads or tranquil boots
Soul ring, black king bar, blink dagger

Tiny the Stone Giant
Solo mid
This one's tricky:
Avalanche at 1, 3, 5, and 9 (the last point adds only 40 damage, compared to 80 at lvl 2 and 3)
Toss at 2, 4, 6, and 7
Grow! at 8
Treads or Arcane Boots
Blink Dagger

Cairne Bloodhoof the Tauren Chieftain
Solo mid or dual/trilane
Max Ancestral Spirit then Echo Stomp
Treads
Invisibility Sword, Black King Bar

Rooftrellen the Treant Protector
Solo mid
Max Leech seed, with 1 level of nature's guise, and then max living armor.
Phase Boots
Refresher Orb, Radiance, Shiva's Guard

Io the Guardian Wisp
Dual/trilane, preferably short
Max Spirits, then tether.
Tranquil Boots
Mekanzm, Urn of Shadows

Razzil Darkbrew the Alchemist
Solo mid or dual/trilane short
Max Acid Spray, with at least 1 point in unstable concoction (more if you plan on ganking). Max Gobling's greed in the mid game.
Any boots
Vanguard, Radiance

Rattletrap the Clockwerk Goblin
Solo long (One of the best solo longs in the game)
Max Rocket Flare, then Battery Assault. One point in Power Cogs as you see fit (opinions differ on when to do this.)
Phase, Arcane, or Tranquil Boots
Vanguard, Ultimate Scepter

Knight Davion the Dragon Knight
Solo mid or dual/trilane
Max Dragon's blood, one point in Dragon tail, then max Breathe Fire. Don't skill the second level of ult right away at 11, as the green dragon is often more useful then the red except when farming.
Treads
Black King Bar, Armlet, Heart

Huskar the Sacred Warrior
Solo mid or dual/trilane short
Always get burning spears at level 1 for the best level 1 harass skill in the game. Some prefer 1 burning spear, then max berserker's blood, then inner vitality, but max burning spears is also extremely deadly in the right situations.
Treads
Armlet, Black King Bar

Rigwarl the Bristleback
Solo mid or dual/trilane short
Max quill spray or bristleback first, then the other skill second. Get one point in Viscous nasal Goo if needed to help with ganks.
Treads or Tranquil boots
Radiance, Vanguard, Hood (Pipe)

Icarus the Phoenix
Solo any lane
Max Fire Spirits first, then Icarus Dive.
Tranquil Boots or Treads
Anything goes. I like radiance and shiva's guard.

Ymir the Tuskar
Preferably mid or short
Many ways to do this, but most people max Ice Shards first then Snowball
Phase boots
Medallion of courage, black king bar, invisibility blade

Mogul Khan the Axe
Jungle or solo mid if vs melee (or wherever broodmother goes)
Two possible builds: 1. Max helix first, then berserker's call, and stats instead of battle hunger
2. One point in helix and call, and max battle hunger by 7, then helix by 10.
Arcane (for hunger build) or tranquil boots
Vanguard, Blink Dagger

Nessaj the Chaos Knight
Any dual/trilane
Max Chaos Bolt, the Reality Rift. You might want to skip Phantasm until 9, unless you have some mana regen (like a crystal maiden).
Treads
Armlet, Black King Bar, Sange

Lucifer the Doom Bringer
Solo mid, occasionally solo short
Anything goes. Seriously. However, I recommend at least getting some levels of devour and scorched earth. If you want to use lvl? death, usually the sweet spot is having 2 levels of it around lvl 5 (2 nukes and some scorched earth will kill most opponents mid, or force them out).
Phase Boots, Tranquil Boots
Vanguard

Naix the Lifestealer
Jungle or dual short, occasionally solo mid
One point in feast, max rage, then open wounds. (Get wounds a bit earlier if you plan to kill heroes)
Treads
Black King Bar, Armlet

Abaddon the Lord of Avernus
Dual with ranged carry
Max either Death coil or Aphotic Shield first, then the other skill second. Max death coil is the more aggresive build.
Arcane Boots
Mekanzm, Pipe

Banehallow the Lycanthrope
Jungle, occasionally solo mid
Max Summon Wolves, then Feral Impulse. Sometimes a level of Howl is added for early pushing, but this can cause mana problems.
Normal boots or treads
Vladimir's Offering, Black King Bar, Stygian Desolator, Medallion of Courage

Balanar the Night Stalker
Solo mid
Max Void, one point in Crippling fear, then max Hunter in the Night. Darkness is sometimes skipped until level 8.
Phase Boots
Vanguard, Black King Bar, Urn of Shadows

Azgalor the Pit Lord
Anything goes.
Max expulsion then Pit of Malice is the best build. Firestorm also has its uses sometimes.
Arcane boots, boots of travel later.
Shiva's Guard, Necronomicon, Sheepstick

Pudge the Butcher
Solo mid or solo short or dual short with helper
Max Hook, then rot. Somtimes one level of flesh heap if you manage to snatch early kills for the strength bonuses.
Any boots
Hood, Black King Bar, Ultimate Scepter, Urn of Shadows

King Leoric the Skeleton King
Dual/tri short or long
Max Storm bolt, with some points in stats, then one point in vampiric before maxing critical strike. Sometimes the first point in vampiric comes earlier, but this will push your lane.
Treads
Black King Bar, Stygian Desolator, Radiance, Armlet

Slardar the Slithereen Guard
Dual/tri short
One point in sprint and bash, max Slithereen Crush by 7, then max either sprint or bash first depending on situation.
Treads
Black King Bar, Blink Dagger, Medallion of Courage

Dirge the Undying
Any lane; often trilane short/long
I prefer: 2 points in soul rip by level 3, max tombstone, then 1 decay at level 8, then max rip. Reasoning: Soul rip at rank 1 and 2 are incredibly cost effective ways to heal / harass
Arcane boots or Tranquil Boots
Soul ring (if no arcane boots), ultimate scepter.

Leviathan the Tidehunter
Typically trilane or full roaming
Max Gush, one point in Kraken Shell, then max Anchor Smash.
Tranquil boots or arcane boots
Vanguard or pipe, blink dagger

Magnus the Magnataur
Solo mid or short
Max Shockwave, one point in empower to last hit, then max skewer
Treads
Blink Dagger

Barathrum the Spiritbreaker
Varies a lot
Max Empowering haste, one point in charge + greater bash, then max charge.
Treads or Tranquil Boots
Black King Bar, Urn of Shadows

Crixalis the Sand King
Dual/trilane, or solo mid vs melees / certain ranged
Two builds: solo mid: 2 points in caustic, then max burrowstrike
Other lanes: max burrow strike, then max sand storm. Skip caustic if you want more stats after this.
Any boots
Blink Dagger, Ultimate Scepter, Black King Bar if needed

+ Show Spoiler [Agility Heroes] +
Magina the Anti-Mage
Mid or short lane (with helper if needed)
Max Spell Shield, one point in mana break and blink, then max blink. More points in manabreak if you're against a particularly helpless opponent.
Phase or Treads
Vanguard, Manta, Battlefury, Butterfly

Kardel Sharpeye the Dwarven Sniper
Solo mid/bottom, occasionally dual short
Headshot at lvl 1; two points in shrapnel if used for ganks, max shrapnel if you plan to push, taking take aim whenever you don't need shapnel. Max headshot after take aim.
Treads
Invisibility Blade, Yasha into manta or S&Y

Yurnero the Juggernaut
Dual/trilane short
Max Blade Fury, with one or two levels of stats, and one early level in healing ward. Max healing ward and critical strike later, as needed.
Boots of your choice
Battlefury for farming; s&y, invisibility blade

Syllabear the Lone Druid
Solo mid or short, or jungle
Max Summon Spirit Bear, then synergy.
Any boots (2 pairs!)
Radiance on pet

Luna Moonfang
Solo mid, dual or solo short
Max Lucent Beam, with one level of lunar blessing, then get 2-3 levels of moon glaive before maxing lunar blessing.
Treads
Black King Bar, Butterfly, Manta Style

Morphling the Morphling
Solo or dual mid, dual/trilane for short/long
Max waveform, then morph. The noob friendly build is max waveform with stats instead. One level of adaptive strike around 8 sometimes to interrupt channeling., but max adaptive last.
Treads
Black King Bar, Eye of Skadi, Manta Style, Helm of the Dominator (Satanic)

Slithice the Naga Siren
Short lane with helpers
I haven't seen her in a serious game in current form, ever. Probably 1 early level of mirror image, with a mix of ensnare and rip tide.
Treads
Diffusal Blade, Manta Style, Heart, Butterfly

Azwraith the Phantom Lancer
Max Spirit Lance, then doppelwalk. Sometimes a few levels of stats is throw in, as well as an early level in juxtapose.
Dual mid or bottom with ranged helper
Treads
Radiance, Vanguard/Heart, Diffusal Blade

Mirana Nightshade the Priestess of the Moon
Typically solo mid or long
Level one leap (if soloing). Max starfall, then arrow
Treads
Yasha (Into manta or S&Y), Mjollnir, Butterfly

Rikimaru the Stealth Assassin
Dual mid or with helper
Max blink strike, one level of smoke screen, then max backstab
Treads
Diffusal Blade, Manta Style

Jah'rakal the Troll Warlord
Max whirling axes, one level in berserker rage, and then stats or fervor as needed. Max berserker rage last.
Solo mid, jungle, or dual short
Treads or Phase
Black King Bar, Helm of the Dominator

Aurel Vlaicu the Gyrocopter
Solo mid, or solo / dual short
Many ways to build this. Max homing missile first, one point in flak, and max rocket barrage for suicidal build. Max flak cannon, with one point in homing and rocket barrage for farming build. I prefer the max flak cannon build.
Phase Boots
Invisibility Blade, Black King Bar, Divine Rapier (or Ultimate scepter if wuss)

Traxex the Drow Ranger
Solo mid or short
Max trueshot aura, one level in frost arrows and silence, then silence or stats as needed. Occasionally maxing frost arrows will win a lane though.
Treads
Invisibility Blade, Manta Style, Helm of the Dominator, Black King Bar

Lanaya the Templar Assassin
Solo mid
Level one refraction, then max meld first, refraction second. One point in early psi blades if vs a melee or short ranged solo sometimes.
Treads or phase
Blink Dagger, Medallion of Courage, Black King Bar

Ulfsaar the Ursa Warrior
Short with helper or jungle
Max fury swipes first, overpower second. One early point in overshock if you want to gank.
Phase boots
Blink Dagger, Vladimir's Offering, Black King Bar

Shendelzare Silkwood the Vengeful Spirit
Any dual / trilane or fulltime roam.
Max Magic Missile, one point in Command Aura and Wave of Terror, then max Wave of Terror
Tranquil Boots
Observer Wards, Smoke of Deceit

Gondar the Bounty Hunter
Solo any
One or two points in windwalk, one early point in jinada, then max Shuriken Toss
Treads
Battlefury, Black King Bar

Strygwyr the Bloodseeker
Solo mid, or short with helper
One point in bloodbath then bloodrage, then get more Blood Bath or Strygwyr's Thirst depending on what you need. Max bloodrage last.
Treads
Radiance, Black King Bar

Clinkz the Bone Fletcher
Solo any (preferably long)
Max searing arrows, then windwalk. One point in strafe at 4 or 8.
Treads
Black King Bar, Orchid Malevolence or Sheepstick

Black Arachnia the Broodmother
Solo any
Max Spawn Spiderlings, then Spin Web. Sometimes Incapacitating bite is skilled at 4 or 8.
Treads
Black King Bar, ring of basilius, soul ring

Anub'arak the Nerubian Assassin
Solo mid
One point in mana burn, max impale, then max urna swarm. Please don't play this hero if you're not going to use urna swarm!
Arcane boots
Dagon, Neconomicon

Anub'seran the Nerubian Weaver
Solo long or short
Max Shukuchi, one in germinate attack, then max The Swarm
No boots (or just the plain ones)
Radiance, Black King Bar

Mortred the Phantom Assassin
Dual short with helper
Max Stifling Dagger, then Phantom Strike, then Blur. Sometimes one point of Blur is skilled earlier.
Treads
Black King Bar, Helm of the Dominator

Nevermore the Shadow Fiend
Solo mid, occasionally solo short
First point in necromastery, then max shadowraze before necromastery
Treads
Black King Bar, Blink or Invisibility Blade

Terrorblade the Soul Keeper
Solo mid or jungle / dual short
One point in zeal, then max metamorphosis or reflection based on opponent heroes.
Treads
Anything with sange and or yasha, black king bar

Mercurial the Spectre
Short with helper
Max Spectral dagger, then Dispersion. One point in desolate earlier if you may be able to get a kill.
Treads
Vanguard, Radiance

Lesale Deathbringer the Venomancer
Dual trilane, full time roam, or solo long (with wards)
Max Plague Wards, with one point in venomous gale (at level one if you're ganking) and poison sting. Then just get stats and your ulti. Seriously, try it.
Tranquil Boots or Arcane Boots
Mekanzm, Pipe of Insight, Ring of Aquila

Viper the Netherdrake
Solo mid
Another tricky one:
Poison attack at 1, 3, 5, 9
Nethertoxin at 2, 4, 7, 8
Viper Strike at 6
Reasoning: We want to get Poison Attack down to 0 cooldown, but nethertoxin actually adds more damage so we max it first.
Treads
Ring of Aquila, Black King Bar

Meepo the Geomancer
Solo mid or short; or dual with helper on short
Max poof, one point in earthbind and geostrike, then max earthbind. Probably get stats instead of maxing geostrike in many cases.
Treads
Invisibility Blade or Blink Dagger, Mekanzm, Vladimir's Offering

Razor the Lightning Revenant
Solo mid or short; occasionally in dual / trilanes in short/long
Max Plasma Field, Then Unstable Current. Sometimes one point in static link helps laning early, if your opponent is low ranged.
Treads
Vanguard, Pipe

Slark the Murloc Nightcrawler
Solo mid or dual/trilane short
Max Pounce or Death Pact first, with one point in Essence Shift. Max pounce is safer.
Treads
Vanguard, Mask of Madness, Black King Bar

Darkterror the Faceless Void
Short with helper
Two early levels in time walk, with most points going into backtrack and one point in time lock. Max Time Walk sooner if needed. (Often it's not)
Treads
Battlefury, Black King Bar, Butterfly

Medusa the Gorgon
Solo mid or short (sometimes with helper)
Max Mystic Snake, then Mana shield. Some levels of stats is occasionally skilled.
Treads
Linken's Sphere, Yasha

+ Show Spoiler [Intelligence Heroes] +
Rylai Crestfall the Crystal Maiden
Any dual/trilane, or full roam
One point in Nova and Frostbite, then Max Brilliance aura, then nova. Freezing field is usually skiped early on, sometimes until 10.
Tranquil Boots
Smoke of Deceit, Observer Wards

Aiushtha the Enchantress
Jungle
Enchant at 1 and 3, then max nature's attendants. Max enchant first also works if you want to be very aggresive.
Treads
Smoke of Deceit, Ring of Basilius, Ultimate Scepter

Puck the Faerie Dragon
Solo long
Max illusory orb, with one point in phase shift at level 2, then max waning rift
Treads
Blink Dagger, Sheepstick, Eul's Scepter of Divinity

Chen the Holy Knight
Jungle
Persuasion at level 1, Test of faith at 2 and 3, then max persuaion first, test next.
Arcane Boots
Ring of basilius, Mekanzm, Ultimate Scepter

Ezalor the Keeper of the Light
Dual with certain carries or nuker
Two early levels in Chakra magic, one point in mana leak in certain situations, then get illuminate / chakra magic as needed.
Tranquil Boots or Phase Boots
Observer wards, urn of shadows, mekanzm, sheep stick

Zeus the Lord of Olympus
Solo mid
Arc at level 1 to last hit, static field at lvl 2, then max lightning bolt, then static field
Arcane boots
Blink Dagger, Ultimate Scepter

Furion the Prophet
Jungle or solo
Max either force of nature or teleportation first, with one point in sprout when needed for ganks.
Any boots
Hand of Midas (Ok, anything goes here for furion, but midas wins those ladder games pretty well), Invisibility blade

Nortrom the Silencer
Solo mid or short, or dual short
Typically, one point in glaives of wisdom, then max curse of the silent, then max Last Word. In some lanes max Glaives of Wisdom is acceptable.
Treads
Mekanzm, Black King Bar, Sheep Stick

Lina Inverse the Slayer
Solo mid or dual/trilane any
Light Strike Array at level one, then max Dragon Slave, then max Light Strike Array
Tranquil Boots
Blink Dagger, Eul's Scepter of Divinity

Raijin Thunderkeg the Storm Spirit
Solo mid
Static Remnant at level 1, Overload at level 2, then max electric vortex.
Treads (Intelligence)
Linken's Sphere, Sheepstick
Alleria the Windrunner

Solo long
One point in windrunner early on, one point in shackleshot in certain situations, then max powershot first, shackleshot second.
Phase Boots
Mekanzm, Sheepstick, Pipe, (a lot of stuff works on her)

Thrall the Disruptor
Solo mid/short, dual with other nukers
Max Thunder Strike, then glimpse, with one level of kinetic field at 4. Occasionally I skip kinetic field until 8, because glimpse is so good.
Tranquil boots or Arcane boots
Doesn't matter much, anything goes (just hit your spells).

Aggron Stonebreaker the Ogre Magi
Dual/Trilane any or roam (starting at 2-3)
Max Fireblast, then Ignite. Occasionall bloodlust is skilled before maxing ignite.
Arcane boots
Urn of Shadows

Squee Spleen and Spoon the Goblin Techies
Anything goes (be smart)
Hell, you can't teach techies like this. Max anything but stasis traps first (one level will suffice early on).
Ultimate scepter

Jakiro the Twin Head Dragon
Dual/trilane any
Max Dual Breath, then Ice Path, with one level of Liquid Fire earlier sometimes.
Tranquil boots or Arcane Boots
Mekanzm, observer wards

Boush the Tinker
Solo mid or short
Max Laser, then Heat Seeking Missile. Rearm at 9, March from 10-13, then more levels of rearm as your mana allows.
Boots of Travel
Soul Ring, Bottle, Sheepstick

Rhasta the Shadow Shaman
Solo mid or dual in some situations
Max Ether Shock, one level of shackles, then max voodoo. Some people get two levels of shackle, but more isn't really useful in many games.
Arcane boots
Blink Dagger, Ultimate Scepter

Rubick the Grand Magus
Solo mid or dual short
Max Fade Bolt, then Telekenesis
Arcane Boots
Blink Dagger, any intelligence item

Atropos the Bane Elemental
Solo mid or dual/tri with certain spells that work well with nightmare
Max Brain Sap, one level of nightmare, then stats or nightmare or enfeeble as you see fit.
Regular old boots is fine
Soul Ring, Blink Dagger, Black King Bar

Ish'kafel the Dark Seer
Jungle
A bunch of ways to do this one as well. I usually max ion shell, one level of surge, then max vacuum.
Arcane boots
Vanguard or hood, Ultimate Scepter

Krobelus the Death Prophet
Solo mid/short
Max Carrion Swarm, one level of silence, then max witchcraft
Tranquil boots or Phase Boots
Vanguard, Mana regen items

Lion the Demon Witch
Solo mid or dual lane.
Max Impale, then Voodoo. One level of manadrain is sometimes helpful, but rare in high level games.
Normal Boots
Blink Dagger, Black King Bar in higher level games

Darchrow the Enigma
Solo long or jungle
Pushing build: Max Demonic Conversion, then Malefice
Normal build: Demonic Conversion at 1, 3, 8, 9 and Malefice at 2, 4, 5, 7
Normal Boots
Blink Dagger, Black King Bar

Kel'thuzad the Lich
Solo long or mid or dual with any carry
One point in dark ritual at level 1 (use it right away!) then max nova. One point in frost armor at 8.
Tranquil Boots
Blink Dagger, Observer wards, Mekanzm

Rotund'jere the Necrolyte
Solo mid or short, sometimes with helper
Max Death Pulse, with one or two levels of sadist, then max heartstopper aura. Occasionally one level of hearstopper is skilled very early.
Boots of your choice
Sheepstick

Pugna the Oblivion
Solo any, typically mid
Max Nether Blast, with one level in decrepify, then max nether ward
Treads
Dagon, Mekanzm, Sheepstick

Harbringer the Obsidian Destroyer
Solo mid/short, or dual with helper
Many ways to do this. A good build is max astral imprisonment, one point in arcane, then max essence aura. A good farming build is one point in arcane, max astral, and then all stats.
Treads (Intel)
Sheepstick, Rod of Atos, Black King Bar, Force Staff

Akasha the Queen of Pain
Solo any (preferably long or mid)
Blink at level one, then max scream, then blink. One point in Shadow Strike if needed. Against melee solos, maxing shadow strike can be incredibly strong as well.
Normal Boots or treads
Ultimate Scepter, Linken's Sphere, Sheepstick

Demnok Lannik the Warlock
Solo mid or short, occasionally dual as helper
Max Shadow Word, one or two levels in upheavel and /or fatal bonds, then max fatal bonds.
Phase Boots
Ultimate Scepter, Refresher Orb

Eredar the Shadow Demon
Solo mid
First point in disruption, then max shadow poison, then max soul catcher. Other builds also work, but this is the strongest if played correctly.
Boots of your choice
Force Staff

Jin'zakk the Batrider
Solo any
Max Sticky Napalm, then Firefly
Treads
Blink Dagger, Force Staff, Vanguard

Dazzle the Shadow Priest
Dual any (as helper)
At least one level in shallow grave and shadow wave early on. Get poison touch if your lane can afford to be aggresive, but don't get the 4th point of poison touch. (it adds minor damage, 0 duration)
Arcane boots or tranquil boots
Observer wards, urn of shadows

Kael the Invoker
Solo any
Best beginner build: max wex, then quas. Don't forget invoke is available earlier then normal ultimates! (2,7,12,17) Key spells: Cold Snap (Quas Quas Quas), EMP (Wex wex wex), Tornado (Quas Wex Wex), and Ghost Walk (Quas Quas Wex).
Phase Boots
Eul's scepter of divinity, Sheepstick, Ultimate Scepter

Visage the Necro'lic
Typically trilane with other nukers; occasionally solo
Max Soul Assumption, Then Grave Chill. One early point in gravekeeper's cloak can also be useful.
Boots of your choice
Anything goes (just use your nuke and gargoyles well)

Leshrac the Malicious the Tormented Soul
Solo mid/short, dual/tri with other stunners/slowers
A bunch of ways to do this one. I think one point in split earth, max diabolic edict, then max lightning storm is pretty strong.
Treads
Black King Bar, Sheepstick, Ultimate Scepter, Rod of Atos

Vol'Jin the Witch Doctor
Dual/tri any, as helper
Depends on lane. One early point in voodoo restoration if needed. Otherwise, max paralyzing cask and maledict first. Max maledict first works better in noob games, max cask first works better in higher level games.
Tranquil Boots or Arcane Boots
Situational, whatever support items your team needs

Kaldr the Ancient Apparition
Solo mid or dual with stunner
Max Cold Feet, then Ice Vortex. Don't bother getting chilling touch, ever in most games. It can be useful, but it's unnecesary.
Phase boots
Eul's Scepter of Divinity

And the brand spanking new 6.73 heroes:
+ Show Spoiler [6.73 Heroes] +
Dragonus the Skywrath Mage
Solo mid/short
Max Arcane Bolt, one point in Concussive, one point in seal, then max concussive or seal as needed.
Treads (intelligence)
Rod of Atos, Sheepstick, Forcestaff

Xin the Ember Spirit
Any lane
A lot of ways to do this guy. Get rank 3 searing chains quickly if you want to gank, otherwise focus on sleight of fist and flame guard first to farm.
Boots of your Choice
Vanguard, Mjollnir

Rizzrak the Goblin Shredder
Any lane
Max Whirling Death, with one point in Reactive Armor then max Timber Chain.
Arcane boots
Vanguard

Tresdin the Legion Commander
Solo mid or dual short/long
Max Overwhelming Odds, with one point in press the attack and moment of courage, then max press the attack.
Phase boots
Black King Bar, Blink Dagger
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
myopia
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2928 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 05:49:51
December 27 2011 05:48 GMT
#2
Great thread, one comment though... Bfury on Gondar? I am by no means a good Dota player but SnY / Desolater / Vlads seem like much better calls if you're going for track team kills. I also always get phase for the chase + crit damage.
it's my first day
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 05:53 GMT
#3
On December 27 2011 14:48 myopia wrote:
Great thread, one comment though... Bfury on Gondar? I am by no means a good Dota player but SnY / Desolater / Vlads seem like much better calls if you're going for track team kills. I also always get phase for the chase + crit damage.

Bfury is there for one simple reason: perseverance is a great starting item for bh. His whole goal is to be constantly farming / tracking people when there are fights; he's essentially a ganking caster that turns into a dpser when you farm enough. There're certainly other ways to play him, but he needs the regen from one item or another. Getting some of the vlads components definitely also works.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16978 Posts
December 27 2011 06:00 GMT
#4
Looks like a great thread. Would it be possible to add "roles" of each hero for those who have some pretty set roles? Think 6.43b Warlock.
Moderator
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 06:02 GMT
#5
On December 27 2011 15:00 Empyrean wrote:
Looks like a great thread. Would it be possible to add "roles" of each hero for those who have some pretty set roles? Think 6.43b Warlock.

Ahh, good point. That'd certainly be helpful for someone learning a hero, I'll add that sometime (have a headache right now from typing all day).
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 27 2011 06:09 GMT
#6
Nice thread. Will be really useful for me

Just a question tho. Why max call of the wild on BM first over axes? Call of the wild is super useful, but wouldn't maxing axes first let you take full advantage of the burst/damage potential early?
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 06:13 GMT
#7
On December 27 2011 15:09 Ryuu314 wrote:
Nice thread. Will be really useful for me

Just a question tho. Why max call of the wild on BM first over axes? Call of the wild is super useful, but wouldn't maxing axes first let you take full advantage of the burst/damage potential early?

Maxing axes is viable, but most of the pros prefer maxing call of the wild first. With some micro, you're actually more likely to chase someone down with that greater quillbeast than you are with extra damage on axes; and the upgraded hawk is quite a bit better for scouting as well. You won't get flamed for maxing axes first, it works, but if you want to practice playing bm the right way, I believe call is better.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
BuLba
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1585 Posts
December 27 2011 06:26 GMT
#8
On December 27 2011 15:13 5-s wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 15:09 Ryuu314 wrote:
Nice thread. Will be really useful for me

Just a question tho. Why max call of the wild on BM first over axes? Call of the wild is super useful, but wouldn't maxing axes first let you take full advantage of the burst/damage potential early?

Maxing axes is viable, but most of the pros prefer maxing call of the wild first. With some micro, you're actually more likely to chase someone down with that greater quillbeast than you are with extra damage on axes; and the upgraded hawk is quite a bit better for scouting as well. You won't get flamed for maxing axes first, it works, but if you want to practice playing bm the right way, I believe call is better.



getting lvl 4 axes and lvl 2 aura is the best build on bm, no need call.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 06:50:02
December 27 2011 06:48 GMT
#9
Wow this is awesome 5-s, great work, this might even deserve to be stickied in my eyes

Edit: Also, question if I may ask, were you heavily involved in the testing of 6.73? (I believe you are one of the map testers, correct? For Dota 1 as well as 2)
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 06:54 GMT
#10
On December 27 2011 15:48 Zlasher wrote:
Wow this is awesome 5-s, great work, this might even deserve to be stickied in my eyes

Edit: Also, question if I may ask, were you heavily involved in the testing of 6.73? (I believe you are one of the map testers, correct? For Dota 1 as well as 2)

I can neither confirm nor deny that accusation .
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 07:23:54
December 27 2011 06:59 GMT
#11
Needs more Janggo. Needs less Lothar's. Needs more Manta Style (great reliable DPS for any Agi carry). Needs more Force Staff.

Your listing of Urn is very inconsistent. Mention it for KotL, but not for Pudge, NS, VS, or CM?

Medallion is required for Lycan. Honestly, playing HoN and not having Medallion was the most rage-inducing experience ever.

EDIT: Should also have 5-s's 5s guide to every hero.
Any Strength hero: Janggo BKB
Any Agi hero: Vanguard Manta
Any Int hero: Mekan Force Staff

CAN'T GO WRONG
Moderator
Kaafu
Profile Joined October 2011
Korea (South)30 Posts
December 27 2011 07:27 GMT
#12
Battlefury on juggernaut is not as good as soul ring/radiance. Whereas battlefury is good for farming, so is radiance, also, with soul ring available, juggernaut is able to be at full hp with lvl 1 ward. Plus raidance deals more damage and syncs well with his blade fury.
TheWarbler
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1659 Posts
December 27 2011 07:59 GMT
#13
Well what is the point to continue my quick guides
if you can believe you can concieve
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 27 2011 08:46 GMT
#14
On December 27 2011 16:27 Kaafu wrote:
Battlefury on juggernaut is not as good as soul ring/radiance. Whereas battlefury is good for farming, so is radiance, also, with soul ring available, juggernaut is able to be at full hp with lvl 1 ward. Plus raidance deals more damage and syncs well with his blade fury.

Doesn't battlefury also apply the splash to jug's ulti? Also radiance requires you to farm up 3.8k whereas battlefury is in much smaller and more useful parts. Just my 2 cents.
Legend`
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada381 Posts
December 27 2011 08:48 GMT
#15
Got the game yesterday, thanks for the help.
NME.352 GM NA Protoss
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 09:06:36
December 27 2011 09:05 GMT
#16
Beastmaster quillbeast doesn't scale until level 4. Also some pros level up the aura to 2 so the quillbeast can permaslow. And of course you can use axes for pushing/anti-pushing. But leveling hawk is better against long range initiators and blinkers and people that overplay pudge.
Veles
Profile Joined May 2011
United States3280 Posts
December 27 2011 09:08 GMT
#17
I haven't read all of it yet, but you say that panda is dual/tri. Solo mid panda can be devastating in some situations ^^
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
December 27 2011 09:19 GMT
#18
techies is great for pushing

once lvl 7 or 11 and you have soul ring and arcane boots and/or bottle, you can push like mad, killing off a single wave with remote/land combo and downing towers with land mines

late game you just fuck everything up with mass remotes and stasis the entire map
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
December 27 2011 09:25 GMT
#19
On December 27 2011 17:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:27 Kaafu wrote:
Battlefury on juggernaut is not as good as soul ring/radiance. Whereas battlefury is good for farming, so is radiance, also, with soul ring available, juggernaut is able to be at full hp with lvl 1 ward. Plus raidance deals more damage and syncs well with his blade fury.

Doesn't battlefury also apply the splash to jug's ulti? Also radiance requires you to farm up 3.8k whereas battlefury is in much smaller and more useful parts. Just my 2 cents.

yeah it works on the ulti
POGGERS
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34490 Posts
December 27 2011 09:31 GMT
#20
Wow I don't even have to read this and I can tell it's an epic thread. Loads of props.
Moderator
Reivax
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden214 Posts
December 27 2011 09:35 GMT
#21
Shadowblade on Kunkka is rather nice, if it works like in HoN. Seems more effective than battlefury.
Deleted User 45971
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 10:39:08
December 27 2011 10:38 GMT
#22
On December 27 2011 18:25 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:27 Kaafu wrote:
Battlefury on juggernaut is not as good as soul ring/radiance. Whereas battlefury is good for farming, so is radiance, also, with soul ring available, juggernaut is able to be at full hp with lvl 1 ward. Plus raidance deals more damage and syncs well with his blade fury.

Doesn't battlefury also apply the splash to jug's ulti? Also radiance requires you to farm up 3.8k whereas battlefury is in much smaller and more useful parts. Just my 2 cents.

yeah it works on the ulti


I'm pretty sure that BF does not work with Omnislash. It only works with auto attacks. Although if you have high AS you do autoattack more during the ult duration but it does not cleave on the actual Omnislash attacks.
Reap_
Profile Joined September 2011
Brunei Darussalam760 Posts
December 27 2011 10:44 GMT
#23
i really like going radiance on Xin, he's very fun to play!

OT: really good guide +1
www.twitter.com/raginreap | First Departure, Orange, Na`Vi, Mouz and Zenith
Musou
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1375 Posts
December 27 2011 10:44 GMT
#24
On December 27 2011 19:38 Potatisodlaren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 18:25 konadora wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:27 Kaafu wrote:
Battlefury on juggernaut is not as good as soul ring/radiance. Whereas battlefury is good for farming, so is radiance, also, with soul ring available, juggernaut is able to be at full hp with lvl 1 ward. Plus raidance deals more damage and syncs well with his blade fury.

Doesn't battlefury also apply the splash to jug's ulti? Also radiance requires you to farm up 3.8k whereas battlefury is in much smaller and more useful parts. Just my 2 cents.

yeah it works on the ulti


I'm pretty sure that BF does not work with Omnislash. It only works with auto attacks. Although if you have high AS you do autoattack more during the ult duration but it does not cleave on the actual Omnislash attacks.


Correct, the slashes from omnislash cannot splash, but the bonus attacks in-between can. Bonus attacks also trigger buff placers/orbs/procs.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 15:47 GMT
#25
On December 27 2011 15:59 TheYango wrote:
Needs more Janggo. Needs less Lothar's. Needs more Manta Style (great reliable DPS for any Agi carry). Needs more Force Staff.

Your listing of Urn is very inconsistent. Mention it for KotL, but not for Pudge, NS, VS, or CM?

Medallion is required for Lycan. Honestly, playing HoN and not having Medallion was the most rage-inducing experience ever.

EDIT: Should also have 5-s's 5s guide to every hero.
Any Strength hero: Janggo BKB
Any Agi hero: Vanguard Manta
Any Int hero: Mekan Force Staff

CAN'T GO WRONG

Janggo is indeed awesome, but I really couldn't think of a hero where I'd consider it core on. It's just good on everything, but required on nothing. Maybe you could give me an exception? There are certain things that I didn't put here but hopefully is common knowledge, like magic stick is always good, and bottle is good on solo mid. Any suggestions on which heroes don't deserve invisibility blade as core? (Lothars) Also, I think you're right for urn on ns, probably pudge. I disagree on vs and cm; those heroes don't always make it that far in their builds every game, and alternatively if they do well you might want them to build other support stuff instead like janggo or medallion, depending on the game.

On December 27 2011 16:59 TheWarbler wrote:
Well what is the point to continue my quick guides

Plenty, this is intended to be the bare minimum of guides.


On December 27 2011 16:27 Kaafu wrote:I'm pretty sure that BF does not work with Omnislash. It only works with auto attacks. Although if you have high AS you do autoattack more during the ult duration but it does not cleave on the actual Omnislash attacks.

You're right, it only works on the extra hits between slashes. Regarding radiance + soul ring build, I think it definitely can work, but I'd like to point out that the battlefury is already built is less gold than a soul ring + the cost of just the relic. Also, the soul ring is something you're going to end up selling late game for juggernaut; not a big deal, but I think if you farm a quick perseverance it actually goes into one of your dps items and is therefore a smoother buildup. The reason battlefury is good on certain melee heroes is not because it's the best right click item or lategame item, but it is the only item that gives hp and mana regen, ability to push, and the ability to clear out neutral creeps quickly all-in-one. You have to really take advantage of all the regen the perseverance gives during the buildup for battlefury to be worth it; it's probably not needed if all you're doing is free farming a lane while your team fights for you.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 17:51:46
December 27 2011 15:53 GMT
#26
Suggestions for changes:

+ Show Spoiler [Str Heroes] +

Beastmaster - Vanguard is at this point more common than any of the other items you suggested. Suggesting both Gem AND Necronomicon is redundant--you don't need two sources of True Sight. I'd say Vanguard->Medallion, Pipe, or Vlads
Panda - Janggo takes priority over Scepter or Blink
DK - Vanguard/Pipe/Cuirass is more stable than Armlet builds IMO (it's also what Burning does every game). BKB is kind of awkward because you're a tanky shithead that's impossible to kill--you actually don't mind people wasting their spells on you, once you have Hood.
CK - Janggo first item. Illusions specifically do benefit from Endurance Aura-based effects (though they normally do not benefit from other auras)--meaning your damage potential with Janggo first is ridiculous.
Doom - Should list Radiance after Vanguard
Lycan - Medallion after Vlad's. It's too good for him, especially given how much easier it makes Rosh solos.

+ Show Spoiler [Agi Heroes] +

In general, I hate Lothar's. The sooner new players can be weaned off using Lothar's, the better. I don't consider it core on anyone.

Morphling - Ethereal Blade and Butterfly both deserve mentioning (Ethereal+Adaptive is hella funny when you can two-shot anyone who doesn't have BKB).
Bounty Hunter - Janggo > BFury at this point
Razor - Not even a mention of Manta?

+ Show Spoiler [Int Heroes] +

Lina - Should mention Force Staff. I'd probably get it before Eul's.
WR - Should mention Force Staff, after Mekan
Lion - Force Staff after Blink
Necrolyte - Vanguard/Mekan/Pipe--should get 2/3 before Sheepstick usually
Pugna - Dagon... -_- Aghanim's is actually quite fun on Pugna, because 0 CD Life Drain both makes you hard to kill, and bumps up your damage output by a lot.
OD - Should be getting Mekansm. Mekan->Force Staff->Sheepstick->whatever the fuck cuz you 3-shot people at this point
Batrider - 90% of the time, you need BKB after Blink.
Invoker - Usually Janggo after Phases
AA - Mekansm first, then Force Staff usually
Moderator
RQShatter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States459 Posts
December 27 2011 16:09 GMT
#27
Yeah panda is the exception where jango is required
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
December 27 2011 16:53 GMT
#28
I dislike lothars in general, I only get it on furion really. on the heroes which you usually get it its better to get something different, say Drow ranger, helm of domi>yasha>manta is far superior in my opinion. Dagger is also much better on SF then lothars, lothars just gets countered so easily by a simple dust.

BKB core on nerub weaver after radiance is questionable, I almost never get BKB on weaver, I just rush for heart, or I have a hood/vanguard.
WriterXiao8~~
tube
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1475 Posts
December 27 2011 17:11 GMT
#29
thanks icefrog
Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.
tube
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 17:16:39
December 27 2011 17:11 GMT
#30
On December 28 2011 00:47 5-s wrote:
Janggo is indeed awesome, but I really couldn't think of a hero where I'd consider it core on.

ck

i would change enigma to soul ring midas

i would also change alchemist to soul ring midas

i would also change techies to soul ring midas
Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
December 27 2011 17:24 GMT
#31
Yeah I'm not a fan of shadow blade on Drow either, always preferred 2 wraith bands, yasha, helm, manta or helm then yasha/manta. But that is in pub games where the enemy isnt' always coordinated enough to abuse a Drow without good escape.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
December 27 2011 18:04 GMT
#32
On December 28 2011 02:11 tube wrote:
i would change enigma to soul ring midas


Midas on enigma... really? Are you playing on a team with no heroes capable of clearing the jungle at level 12?
tube
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1475 Posts
December 27 2011 18:09 GMT
#33
im playing dota
Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
December 27 2011 18:23 GMT
#34
I've never seen Midas on Enigma save for one game with Minigun where the other team did nothing to our jungle all game. I'd just rather see soul ring blink dagger and teamfighting with the black hole.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
NEXUS6
Profile Joined July 2011
United States413 Posts
December 27 2011 18:33 GMT
#35
Thanks, this will help me a lot.
zz_
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden1022 Posts
December 27 2011 19:14 GMT
#36
Might want to mention that you should get one level of arrow early even though you're maxing starfall on POTM. Anyway great job.
In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 27 2011 19:26 GMT
#37
On December 28 2011 03:23 Zlasher wrote:
I've never seen Midas on Enigma save for one game with Minigun where the other team did nothing to our jungle all game. I'd just rather see soul ring blink dagger and teamfighting with the black hole.

I do it sometimes too when I'm playing ricing enigma. Midas is just kinda good on everything these days, but it's not really core IMO except on furion, who really benefits from the extra exp and hitting lvl 11 quickly.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Comprissent
Profile Joined September 2010
United States314 Posts
December 27 2011 19:34 GMT
#38
Very handy guide to keep around, shame i can't have this open on a second monitor since I have to d/c it when i play curse my laptop.

I don't see what all the hate is about lothar's, i guess maybe it's not as viable in pro games but in pubs it can really screw over teams fast (watching SF go invis -> BKB + ult in the middle of a teamfight is sad)
He's French-Canadian, so he's gonna do fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else gay
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:43:19
December 27 2011 19:39 GMT
#39
On December 28 2011 04:34 Comprissent wrote:
I don't see what all the hate is about lothar's, i guess maybe it's not as viable in pro games but in pubs it can really screw over teams fast (watching SF go invis -> BKB + ult in the middle of a teamfight is sad)

Even if you're currently playing at the level where Lothar's is good, you'll eventually improve at the game and move up to the level where it's not--and at that point I think it's better to not have gotten in the habit of having it.

It's not like a stable HotD/Yasha build is bad in pubs.
Moderator
Boardin
Profile Joined September 2009
234 Posts
December 27 2011 19:49 GMT
#40
5-s = noob. pm me
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
December 27 2011 19:52 GMT
#41
I always found Lothar's to be alright when the point of it wasn't the invisibility and the invis was just a bonus. Something like Admiral where Lothar's can be used for a big hit with his whip.

A great example from HoN is Puppet Master though who has the following ability:
the next attack will have a 100% chance to deal a 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2.0x critical strike and apply 25 / 50 / 70 / 100% splash damage in radius of 150


When combined with Lothar's it gives PM a huge burst damage capability while the stealth is nice for pre-fight safety for the ranged carry. But even if your enemies have 100% truevision Lothar's on a hero like PM is still a good boost to DPS by allowing for a +300 damage AoE attack.

Though IMPORTANT note, in HoN Lothar's stacks with crits, in DotA I don't think it does. So that may make all the difference in the world.
Logo
niggy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States26 Posts
December 27 2011 20:02 GMT
#42
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.
My wife for Hiur
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 27 2011 20:05 GMT
#43
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

HotD is fine on Drow...
Moderator
Playguuu
Profile Joined April 2010
United States926 Posts
December 27 2011 20:11 GMT
#44
BKB on morph? I've never seen that or heard it suggested. Usually just get Linkens, manta, eye, eth blade.
I used to be just like you, then I took a sweetroll to the knee.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 20:31:45
December 27 2011 20:20 GMT
#45
On December 28 2011 05:11 Playguuu wrote:
BKB on morph? I've never seen that or heard it suggested. Usually just get Linkens, manta, eye, eth blade.

BKB vs Linken's is situational. Against teams where Linken's is not useful (lots of stuff to pop it, no ult CCs that go through BKB), you can skip Linken's and go straight for Ethereal/Manta, and get BKB later.

Until the 6.73 changes hit DotA 2, IMO skipping Linken's and getting BKB later is better. Linken's is just too unreliable with Medallion and Urn able to pop it.
Moderator
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 27 2011 21:00 GMT
#46
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

How is max dragon blood on dk bad? Max dragon blood gives all the lane sustain you'll ever need.
CountChocula
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2068 Posts
December 27 2011 21:05 GMT
#47
On December 28 2011 05:11 Playguuu wrote:
BKB on morph? I've never seen that or heard it suggested. Usually just get Linkens, manta, eye, eth blade.

In recent versions, Zhou always went Treads, BKB on morph, because he felt the traditional Linken's, Manta route was too slow/passive and he likes helping his team in teamfights during mid-game more.
Writer我会让他们连馒头都吃不到 Those championships owed me over the years, I will take them back one by one.
Cirn9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1117 Posts
December 27 2011 22:00 GMT
#48
Its hard for me (someone with no dota experience) to use parts of this guide without knowing the item/hero equivalents
Unprotected sex is like fast expanding in close positions. Its risky, but feels great when it works out
NGrNecris
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand855 Posts
December 27 2011 22:18 GMT
#49
Haven't seen many people get blink on zeus. Is it really worth it?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 27 2011 22:18 GMT
#50
On December 28 2011 06:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

How is max dragon blood on dk bad? Max dragon blood gives all the lane sustain you'll ever need.

I'd say its situational. A lot of your reasonable first item choices (Soul Ring, Bottle, Ring of Health) already give you regen, so it may be overkill to get more if you don't need it. Get as much Dragon Blood as you need to feel comfortable in lane, and fill out Dragon's Breath with the rest.
Moderator
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 22:20:18
December 27 2011 22:19 GMT
#51
On December 28 2011 07:00 Cirn9 wrote:
Its hard for me (someone with no dota experience) to use parts of this guide without knowing the item/hero equivalents

Equivalents to what? I think most of the items / heroes have the same name. Let me know which parts are unclear. I do abbreviate sometimes though, for example BKB = Black King Bar, etc.


On December 28 2011 07:18 NGrNecris wrote:
Haven't seen many people get blink on zeus. Is it really worth it?

Very much so; force staff is a good option too. Positioning is very key for zeus.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
niggy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States26 Posts
December 27 2011 23:58 GMT
#52
On December 28 2011 05:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

HotD is fine on Drow...

Helm of the Dominator is actually terrible on Drow considering that she already has one of the best attack modifiers in the game. So many better ways to fill a slot than HotD, but guess it's debatable if you turn off auto cast. Either way, it's not very helpful to put that item in a 30 second guide without giving any explanation...
My wife for Hiur
niggy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States26 Posts
December 28 2011 00:03 GMT
#53
On December 28 2011 06:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

How is max dragon blood on dk bad? Max dragon blood gives all the lane sustain you'll ever need.

Because you'll have no damage output for a long time. Get one point in it instead.
My wife for Hiur
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 00:13:44
December 28 2011 00:06 GMT
#54
On December 28 2011 08:58 niggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 05:05 TheYango wrote:
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

HotD is fine on Drow...

Helm of the Dominator is actually terrible on Drow considering that she already has one of the best attack modifiers in the game. So many better ways to fill a slot than HotD, but guess it's debatable if you turn off auto cast. Either way, it's not very helpful to put that item in a 30 second guide without giving any explanation...

In virtually every competitive game I've ever seen Drow in, she's gotten HotD (including when her Frost Arrows were even stronger and slowed attack speed as well as movement speed). Calling it "terrible" is a bit much.

The utility and improvement in farming potential you gain from having a dominated creep and being able to use it to pull camps far outweighs whatever inefficiency you feel comes with HotD's orb interfering with Frost Arrows (which, as you say, is not even an issue if you do not autocast Frost Arrows). Granted, a new player referring to these guides will probably not be able make full use out of that aspect of HotD.
Moderator
PetitCrabe
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada410 Posts
December 28 2011 00:18 GMT
#55
I rather have a rod of atos now with ancient apparition. So good, gives you that extra HP AA really lacks
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 28 2011 01:42 GMT
#56
On December 28 2011 09:03 niggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 06:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

How is max dragon blood on dk bad? Max dragon blood gives all the lane sustain you'll ever need.

Because you'll have no damage output for a long time. Get one point in it instead.

Maxing breath first is probably better cause you have more damge. But maxing blood second or in tandem with breath is probably better than maxing tail second. The increase in stun length/damage of dragon tail per level is really small, especially since lvl 1 tail already has a 2 sec stun time. Maxing dragon blood second will do more than tail imo.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 02:57:19
December 28 2011 02:55 GMT
#57
On December 28 2011 08:58 niggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 05:05 TheYango wrote:
On December 28 2011 05:02 niggy wrote:
I appreciate all of the work you did to do this but...some of these skill and item builds are really bad (e.g. max Dragon Blood on Dragon Knight, Helm of the Dominator on Drow...). I don't think a 30 second guide for a hero is capable of doing them justice.

HotD is fine on Drow...

Helm of the Dominator is actually terrible on Drow considering that she already has one of the best attack modifiers in the game. So many better ways to fill a slot than HotD, but guess it's debatable if you turn off auto cast. Either way, it's not very helpful to put that item in a 30 second guide without giving any explanation...


the slow arrow only slows ms, so you activate it manually when neccesary or turn it on manually when neccesary

HOTD is good because, it gives her some semblance of tankability/survivability(when high level/yasha.
It gives her a whopping 20 damage, which is fairly decent for cost
It gives her the ability to dominate creeps, allowing for stacking/ancient stacking or the 30% wolf aura for more damage(although the latter isn't used as often since it dies very fast)
It also gives her the ability to farm ancients and the jungle without any worry.

The attack modifier you turn on when neccesary, that is all, I usually apply it manually unless I am chasing someone and I am in no danger of getting killed.

I consider HOTD almost core on her.
WriterXiao8~~
niggy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States26 Posts
December 28 2011 18:33 GMT
#58
I'd concede that it's debatable whether or not HotD is a decent item on Drow. I prefer stacking AGI because it synergizes so well with her steroid, but I guess you could go for one. However, like someone else has already pointed out, it's not an item that one should add to a 30 second guide because there are specific techniques (i.e. creep stacking and orb switching) required to make it viable.
My wife for Hiur
RQShatter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States459 Posts
December 28 2011 18:43 GMT
#59
On December 29 2011 03:33 niggy wrote:
I'd concede that it's debatable whether or not HotD is a decent item on Drow. I prefer stacking AGI because it synergizes so well with her steroid, but I guess you could go for one. However, like someone else has already pointed out, it's not an item that one should add to a 30 second guide because there are specific techniques (i.e. creep stacking and orb switching) required to make it viable.


HotD is gotten before finishing treads 100% of time in competitive. She can only auto attack farm and its alot of sustain.
chriZqq
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
141 Posts
December 28 2011 18:53 GMT
#60
You should add the skillbuild 1x Stun, 1x Wave, 3x Aura for some roaming situations with Venge (when you have strong lanes -> Stunduration doesnt increase, but Manacosts increase horribly)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 23:18:30
December 28 2011 18:55 GMT
#61
On December 29 2011 03:53 chriZqq wrote:
You should add the skillbuild 1x Stun, 1x Wave, 3x Aura for some roaming situations with Venge (when you have strong lanes -> Stunduration doesnt increase, but Manacosts increase horribly)

The stun duration on VS's stun does increase, unlike in HoN. The damage/mana also increases very significantly, so even though the mana cost increases (110->140 is also not "horribly"), it's worth it considering that rank 1 Magic Missile does less than 1 damage per mana, while rank 4 does more than 2 damage per mana.
Moderator
Sm3agol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2055 Posts
December 28 2011 19:19 GMT
#62
I'm a Dota newbie(I played Hon for over a year), and have a lot of trouble with roles/etc for heroes with no HoN equivalent, obviously.

Drow Ranger.....just wtf is her purpose? I see her all the time, and she's always farming constantly while going 3/10/5. Is she supposed to be a hard carry?

theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 19:27:32
December 28 2011 19:23 GMT
#63
On December 29 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm a Dota newbie(I played Hon for over a year), and have a lot of trouble with roles/etc for heroes with no HoN equivalent, obviously.

Drow Ranger.....just wtf is her purpose? I see her all the time, and she's always farming constantly while going 3/10/5. Is she supposed to be a hard carry?


She is a carry, but she's pretty tough to play correctly (poor escape ability, counter-intuitive optimal skillbuild, attack animation takes a lot of getting used to), so if you're playing in low-level games you will see a lot of people failing with her. She often hits a strong stride w/Treads, 2 Wraith Bands, and Black King Bar or Helm of the Dominator around 25 mins in
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
December 28 2011 19:33 GMT
#64
Great job!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 19:54:02
December 28 2011 19:52 GMT
#65
On December 29 2011 04:23 theqat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm a Dota newbie(I played Hon for over a year), and have a lot of trouble with roles/etc for heroes with no HoN equivalent, obviously.

Drow Ranger.....just wtf is her purpose? I see her all the time, and she's always farming constantly while going 3/10/5. Is she supposed to be a hard carry?


She is a carry, but she's pretty tough to play correctly (poor escape ability, counter-intuitive optimal skillbuild, attack animation takes a lot of getting used to), so if you're playing in low-level games you will see a lot of people failing with her. She often hits a strong stride w/Treads, 2 Wraith Bands, and Black King Bar or Helm of the Dominator around 25 mins in


What is the "optimal skill build"? I haven't played her much but I assumed it was 1 in arrows, max silence and stats until 8 or 9 then max slow and get TSA to hit full skills at 16-17.

e: I mean, I know this guide says to max TSA but I don't like that ONE BIT, so maybe you can explain.
ChrisXIV
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Austria3553 Posts
December 28 2011 20:44 GMT
#66
On December 29 2011 04:52 scorch- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 04:23 theqat wrote:
On December 29 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm a Dota newbie(I played Hon for over a year), and have a lot of trouble with roles/etc for heroes with no HoN equivalent, obviously.

Drow Ranger.....just wtf is her purpose? I see her all the time, and she's always farming constantly while going 3/10/5. Is she supposed to be a hard carry?


She is a carry, but she's pretty tough to play correctly (poor escape ability, counter-intuitive optimal skillbuild, attack animation takes a lot of getting used to), so if you're playing in low-level games you will see a lot of people failing with her. She often hits a strong stride w/Treads, 2 Wraith Bands, and Black King Bar or Helm of the Dominator around 25 mins in


What is the "optimal skill build"? I haven't played her much but I assumed it was 1 in arrows, max silence and stats until 8 or 9 then max slow and get TSA to hit full skills at 16-17.

e: I mean, I know this guide says to max TSA but I don't like that ONE BIT, so maybe you can explain.


There is no perfect build, it all depends on what you want to accomplish - your build focuses on silence - why? On the first few levels 1 second more of silence isn't really important. Who are you going to cast it on?

The main decision (imo) is between TSA and arrows, one of which will get maxed at level 7(silence is maxed after that, then the other skill). Going for the arrows early makes you a better ganker, but your DPS is comparatively low. With an early TSA the boost you get from your ultimate at level 6 is pretty big, but you won't be able to chase effectively. In both cases you will need support against other heroes, because, as you noticed Drow is a carry.
"Just stay on 1 base, make a lot of shit, keep attacking. It doesn't work? Keep attacking." -Chill
theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 21:22:15
December 28 2011 20:53 GMT
#67
On December 29 2011 04:52 scorch- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 04:23 theqat wrote:
On December 29 2011 04:19 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm a Dota newbie(I played Hon for over a year), and have a lot of trouble with roles/etc for heroes with no HoN equivalent, obviously.

Drow Ranger.....just wtf is her purpose? I see her all the time, and she's always farming constantly while going 3/10/5. Is she supposed to be a hard carry?


She is a carry, but she's pretty tough to play correctly (poor escape ability, counter-intuitive optimal skillbuild, attack animation takes a lot of getting used to), so if you're playing in low-level games you will see a lot of people failing with her. She often hits a strong stride w/Treads, 2 Wraith Bands, and Black King Bar or Helm of the Dominator around 25 mins in


What is the "optimal skill build"? I haven't played her much but I assumed it was 1 in arrows, max silence and stats until 8 or 9 then max slow and get TSA to hit full skills at 16-17.

e: I mean, I know this guide says to max TSA but I don't like that ONE BIT, so maybe you can explain.


No matter what you think the optimal build is, it's not commonly 4/1/1/1 or 4/0/2/1 by 7, which is what the average newbie would probably assume--hence me calling it "counter-intuitive." Lots of people like maxing TSA by 7 to make her last-hitting unstoppable. Many good Drow players go for 1/4/4/3 by 16 (i.e. 4 levels of stats by 16) because you don't necessarily need 0-cd frost arrows to be effective.
RQShatter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States459 Posts
December 28 2011 21:42 GMT
#68
her frost arrow is 0 cd at level 1 btw, just the slow changes from 10-40%

Her skill build depends on your team. If you have another slower in lane, you can get away with 1 in frost arrow. I prefer maxing trueshot though. I feel it helps pushing towers and lets you kill the stacked ancients faster with Hotd.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
December 28 2011 21:43 GMT
#69
Drow is situational, she should hit her 'stride' so to say at level 16 after maxing the ultimate. The skill build can range from 1 aura, 1 frost, 1 silence, max aura and get stats and add in a level 2 of frost when you need it (level 1 frost wont give you enough to chase someone down indefinitely, 2 can sometimes, 3 is ideal). Leveling silence doesn't do enough in my opinion so i'd rather pump aura stats, but once again, it varies

Item build is also situational, i tend to prefer getting two wraith bands and treads and going either yasha ultimate orb manta then helm or helm manta, or yasha helm manta, all depends on how the games been and how yoru farm is, how safe you are, etc. In pubs if they aren't ganking very coordinated against you, then don't get a shadowblade, a lot of people feel its required on her but I disagree, its only useful if they are a good pub ganking team. Usually when pushing into their level 3's and rax you'll have enough farm, can grab a daedalus, finish into satanic (i like this the least though), or get a butterfly.

If I'm getting good farm though, and my game is going ideal, I'd get the wraith bands treads manta helm butterfly aegis then....i dunno crystalis/daedalus but would rather save money for rebuy.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 28 2011 21:55 GMT
#70
On December 29 2011 03:53 chriZqq wrote:
You should add the skillbuild 1x Stun, 1x Wave, 3x Aura for some roaming situations with Venge (when you have strong lanes -> Stunduration doesnt increase, but Manacosts increase horribly)

Stun duration does increase now, if ever slightly. The build I have is pretty standard now among competitive players (I know this wasn't the case a few patches ago). The main reason is because the mana increase from rank 1 to 4 for stun isn't very much anymore.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Retrospecd
Profile Joined September 2010
259 Posts
December 28 2011 22:10 GMT
#71
Or you could just read the guides on playdota.com...reading these half thought 3 sentences doesnt provide you with anything and you will end up having to look up an actual guide anyway. So you've effectively wasted time looking at these to only have to go and read the actual guide.

I don't see the point because reading the actual guide you will be able to gather these 3 sentences easily and much more knowledge that is actually required to play a hero effectively.
WWW.WTR1BE.COM = Michigan Gaming League (Kalamazoo,MI)
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
December 28 2011 22:27 GMT
#72
On December 29 2011 06:43 Zlasher wrote:
Drow is situational, she should hit her 'stride' so to say at level 16 after maxing the ultimate. The skill build can range from 1 aura, 1 frost, 1 silence, max aura and get stats and add in a level 2 of frost when you need it (level 1 frost wont give you enough to chase someone down indefinitely, 2 can sometimes, 3 is ideal). Leveling silence doesn't do enough in my opinion so i'd rather pump aura stats, but once again, it varies

Item build is also situational, i tend to prefer getting two wraith bands and treads and going either yasha ultimate orb manta then helm or helm manta, or yasha helm manta, all depends on how the games been and how yoru farm is, how safe you are, etc. In pubs if they aren't ganking very coordinated against you, then don't get a shadowblade, a lot of people feel its required on her but I disagree, its only useful if they are a good pub ganking team. Usually when pushing into their level 3's and rax you'll have enough farm, can grab a daedalus, finish into satanic (i like this the least though), or get a butterfly.

If I'm getting good farm though, and my game is going ideal, I'd get the wraith bands treads manta helm butterfly aegis then....i dunno crystalis/daedalus but would rather save money for rebuy.

wraith bands are not very good on her, they slow down her item progression, she seriously needs helm manta bkb or helm yasha bkb asap (treads included). you should really be hitting your stride when you hit level 11, at this point you should be hitting 150-200 damage on average, if not you are behind. reason is you get +30 from ultimate, 70 natural, and then +8 and +40ish from yasha and helm. the timing should be around midgame, meaning you really should have farmed about this much by that time.

silence can change a few things, its situational but in the end it can really pay off. i only get 1 level of frost, for maximum stat abuse.
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
December 28 2011 22:56 GMT
#73
On December 29 2011 07:10 Retrospecd wrote:
Or you could just read the guides on playdota.com...reading these half thought 3 sentences doesnt provide you with anything and you will end up having to look up an actual guide anyway. So you've effectively wasted time looking at these to only have to go and read the actual guide.

I don't see the point because reading the actual guide you will be able to gather these 3 sentences easily and much more knowledge that is actually required to play a hero effectively.

If you know the basics of Dota (or the genre in general), all you really need is a build to play around with when starting a new hero. This is meant for players who have some experience but perhaps not with all of the heroes; for complete beginnners it'll be useless as they won't even know what the items do. For people trying to play specifically heroes competitively - well there are not really good guides for that, at least from what I've seen; you're better off watching replays or vods in that case.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
December 28 2011 23:24 GMT
#74
On December 29 2011 07:27 rabidch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 06:43 Zlasher wrote:
Drow is situational, she should hit her 'stride' so to say at level 16 after maxing the ultimate. The skill build can range from 1 aura, 1 frost, 1 silence, max aura and get stats and add in a level 2 of frost when you need it (level 1 frost wont give you enough to chase someone down indefinitely, 2 can sometimes, 3 is ideal). Leveling silence doesn't do enough in my opinion so i'd rather pump aura stats, but once again, it varies

Item build is also situational, i tend to prefer getting two wraith bands and treads and going either yasha ultimate orb manta then helm or helm manta, or yasha helm manta, all depends on how the games been and how yoru farm is, how safe you are, etc. In pubs if they aren't ganking very coordinated against you, then don't get a shadowblade, a lot of people feel its required on her but I disagree, its only useful if they are a good pub ganking team. Usually when pushing into their level 3's and rax you'll have enough farm, can grab a daedalus, finish into satanic (i like this the least though), or get a butterfly.

If I'm getting good farm though, and my game is going ideal, I'd get the wraith bands treads manta helm butterfly aegis then....i dunno crystalis/daedalus but would rather save money for rebuy.

wraith bands are not very good on her, they slow down her item progression, she seriously needs helm manta bkb or helm yasha bkb asap (treads included).


If you're starting with 2 slippers in lane, you're investing 190g (335 per band that you sell back for 242) for the 2 wraith bands that give you early game stats. Those bands have to get you 4-5 extra creep kills or one hero kill or non-death to pay themselves off. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
December 29 2011 00:25 GMT
#75
On December 29 2011 08:24 scorch- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 07:27 rabidch wrote:
On December 29 2011 06:43 Zlasher wrote:
Drow is situational, she should hit her 'stride' so to say at level 16 after maxing the ultimate. The skill build can range from 1 aura, 1 frost, 1 silence, max aura and get stats and add in a level 2 of frost when you need it (level 1 frost wont give you enough to chase someone down indefinitely, 2 can sometimes, 3 is ideal). Leveling silence doesn't do enough in my opinion so i'd rather pump aura stats, but once again, it varies

Item build is also situational, i tend to prefer getting two wraith bands and treads and going either yasha ultimate orb manta then helm or helm manta, or yasha helm manta, all depends on how the games been and how yoru farm is, how safe you are, etc. In pubs if they aren't ganking very coordinated against you, then don't get a shadowblade, a lot of people feel its required on her but I disagree, its only useful if they are a good pub ganking team. Usually when pushing into their level 3's and rax you'll have enough farm, can grab a daedalus, finish into satanic (i like this the least though), or get a butterfly.

If I'm getting good farm though, and my game is going ideal, I'd get the wraith bands treads manta helm butterfly aegis then....i dunno crystalis/daedalus but would rather save money for rebuy.

wraith bands are not very good on her, they slow down her item progression, she seriously needs helm manta bkb or helm yasha bkb asap (treads included).


If you're starting with 2 slippers in lane, you're investing 190g (335 per band that you sell back for 242) for the 2 wraith bands that give you early game stats. Those bands have to get you 4-5 extra creep kills or one hero kill or non-death to pay themselves off. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

dont bother. if you are any decent with drow you will get those "4-5 extra creep kills" since you have trueshot aura and stats since you shoot at 70-80 damage very early on. you need to get up your core items asap otherwise you are just an autoattacker with 1 aoe silence skill. once you get bkb and manta you can start dealing out the damage without worrying about anything. the 335*2 gold u spend on 2 wraith bands is a big deal as it sets you back for fast treads, something you should have before level 6 otherwise again you are behind. i only get wraith bands if we're doing extremely well and i want to get the most out of jungle + static farming
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 01:27:45
December 29 2011 01:24 GMT
#76
I dunno, I disagree still but I don't think either of us will convince each other. You kill two creep waves and get those wraith bands so early that it doesn't impede your investment on your Yasha next. It helps you survive a bit more and the extra 12 damage is a pretty good early game boost. (20%)
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 03:26:51
December 29 2011 02:02 GMT
#77
What the hell is the point of arguing about Wraiths/Nulls/Bracers? Whether or not to get them or to just sell your Slippers/Mantles/Gauntlets very much depends on how the game is going. This is true for anybody, Drow included. You don't always rush double Wraith Bands, but you also don't discount getting them when they're needed.
Moderator
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
December 29 2011 02:38 GMT
#78
To also be fair, the type of people who are going to benefit mostly by skipping Wraiths/Nulls/Bracers are not the type of people who are going to be reading this guide anyway.

The extra stats are definitely worth it to a new player or somebody trying a new hero, imo.
Skept3k
Profile Joined December 2011
United States16 Posts
December 29 2011 16:21 GMT
#79
I will always pick up wraiths/bracers whenever I fell I'm losing my lane and not getting good last hits. It really helps early and if you already picked up pieces at start, it's such a cheap boost.
Lich gonna have your momma
Meta
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States6225 Posts
December 30 2011 21:28 GMT
#80
This helps me a lot for the dota heroes that don't have a hon counterpart in dota 2. However I have had a lot more success maxing poison sting first on venomancer, followed by wards and stats. Just played a game with him where I went 8-0 in the first 15 minutes and completely shut down the lane just with auto attacks. Wards first seems situational, like if you're in a lane against double ranged and don't need to shut down a carry's farm early.

Cool guide though.
good vibes only
Veles
Profile Joined May 2011
United States3280 Posts
December 30 2011 22:12 GMT
#81
On December 29 2011 07:10 Retrospecd wrote:
Or you could just read the guides on playdota.com...reading these half thought 3 sentences doesnt provide you with anything and you will end up having to look up an actual guide anyway. So you've effectively wasted time looking at these to only have to go and read the actual guide.

I don't see the point because reading the actual guide you will be able to gather these 3 sentences easily and much more knowledge that is actually required to play a hero effectively.


Honestly, these guides are probably better than the guides on playdota. I feel like 95% of all dota guides I have ever seen are worthless for anyone with any experience. They are written for pub games, and assume 2-1-2 laning. Recently, there has been an improvement in quality, but most guides are dated to some degree.
Resent
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia938 Posts
December 31 2011 11:32 GMT
#82
IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 13:16:20
December 31 2011 13:10 GMT
#83
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?

I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight

On December 31 2011 20:32 Resent wrote:
IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?


I've just been sticking to Wards, Magic Stick, Boots, Courier (+ Flying) and then trying to get what I can from there.

Kinda hard to farm items like Scepter and Sheep unless you get to farm empty lanes (which I feel kinda lame doing, mostly because I hate it when supports do it when I'm not supporting lol) or get a bunch of early kills/towers.

Items like Force Staff/Mek/Point Booster are good starts IMO, a blink is great if you can afford it.

But I just put wards as a priority tbh, whilst things like Point Booster/Force Staff/mek are great, they don't really have that dramatic of an effect on the game like a Manta on a Carry and the best defense against dieing is being able to avoid it where possible
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 13:16:31
December 31 2011 13:15 GMT
#84
On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?

I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight


It's just all round quite good. Gives life steal, armour ,hp regen and you can get a neut creep which you can either use in battle, for scouting or to stack ancient camps. I only see Drow and late game Dragonknight builds going it though I think. Drow gets crazy damage without tons of items so some more survivability is good and well Dragonknight is just a fat tank and with some good ancient stacking can easily deal with 4 stacks with Fire/Frost dragon. However I also see DK go pipe/jango build when team is going super push so I guess it depends on what team is doing.
Kragx
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark236 Posts
December 31 2011 13:24 GMT
#85
On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?

I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight


Generally most carries get some kind of hp regeneration so they can more easily stay on their lane and farm up. This goes for neutral farming, or just because you tend to take some damage once in a while to control the lane properly. If this is vanguard, perserverace -> battlefury, hood, a ring of health or a dominator mainly depends on the hero. Some heroes can decide depending on game and opponents, while others (drow, luna) is fairly limited. Generally only dominator makes sense on drow out of these items, so people tend to get that.
Also, dominator gives good bonuses for the price. Armor + dmg and lifesteal, plus the ability which can be utilized as well.

Both drow and luna are ranged, and heroes that need bkb at some point, so vanguard is less effective, and you don't want to buy hood either. Battlefury doesn't make much sense either so those two heroes generally make dominator.

Heroes like AM, BH, Void, PL, Jugger, DK can all make different meaningful choices, so they are less likely to make dominator.

Just my perspective :>
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
December 31 2011 13:32 GMT
#86
I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
December 31 2011 13:36 GMT
#87
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.

lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
Kragx
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark236 Posts
December 31 2011 13:38 GMT
#88
On December 31 2011 22:32 Dommk wrote:
I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price


It's not really 'how much', it's more like something or nothing (base regeneration). It enables you to stay full hp on the lane/wood. Smaller items does as well, but dominator does provide the usefulness of a creep (if used effectively) and it's a very important late game item (satanic), and get's an effect pretty much as soon as the first big aggresive item is up (butter, mkb, buriza, perhaps manta).

Not to say it's a must, but I think that's the key reason.
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 14:23:53
December 31 2011 13:44 GMT
#89
On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?

I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight

the problem is ur assumption right here yo
there's very few heroes where hotd first is standard, and where it is standard it usually makes sense
drow and luna do a good amount of damage early on in the game, so hotd gives a reasonable amount of survivability and lets them jungle really fast
hotd first on dk isn't really standard, usually armlet and bkb are better (or pipe and jango if ur chinese)

it's the same idea in hon with mq, puppet, and mali

edit:
On December 31 2011 22:36 BurningSera wrote:
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.

lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.

this is supposed to be a joke right
cus if it is it's not very funny
edit2: okay I'll bite
the builds are mostly pretty standard across all 3 regions (US/EU/asia). generally US/EU players use the same builds, while asia might change up a couple
the gondar build in question was standardized by chinese comp teams, though it isn't exactly an innovative build

pa is a useless hero with zero useful skills that can make a passable lategame carry if you can hold out 4v5. to put that into perspective, spectre, troll, am, and void are heroes that are more useful than pa in literally every single stage of the game (including lategame). gondar has track, jinada, permainvis, and a hefty nuke that ministuns
in terms of role, gondar is probably most comparable to slardar; he spends early-mid game farming up, midgame killing things, and lategame still killing things

but read what I have bolded there and get back to me
"read" because I can't imagine you actually read that before you posted it
marmuc
Profile Joined August 2011
110 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 14:49:26
December 31 2011 14:42 GMT
#90
nevermind.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 16:37:29
December 31 2011 16:19 GMT
#91
On December 31 2011 22:36 BurningSera wrote:
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.

lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.


Yea, all the US teams basically practice versus Europeans. This isn't meant to be a guide for the next EG when they go over to Asia; this is meant for anywhere from low/mid-skill ladder all the way up to inhouse league level play. The Chinese actually go janggo bkb on bounty hunter usually, and mostly afk with him early game trying to leech exp while invis. Similarly, windrunner might be played as a support with arcane boots / mek. If that's your game plan for matchmaking... well good luck ever winning. The optimal strategy in 6.72f / 6.73 is fairly push oriented, and calls for a lot more early game builds, but I'm assuming you're not actually playing against IG or DK in this guide, and have a bit more time to get your build together.

Just because you find bh's afk farming in your ladder games doesn't mean the builds they might try to do are wrong; the whole point of the battlefury build is you have longevity to stick around and track / shuriken everything whenever there's a fight, but can also go back and push a lane or jungle when there's no action. Once again, these builds are not meant for playing the highest tier matches, but that should have been fairly obvious I thought...

Edit: Also, 40 minutes? What the hell, which of these builds would take 40 minutes to farm for a competent player? My bh suggestion is literally, battlefury bkb. If that takes more then 30 minutes then you've already lost.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 17:08:28
December 31 2011 16:51 GMT
#92
On December 31 2011 20:32 Resent wrote:
IS there any pub style CM item builds? Due to the quality of teammates i get, smoke is pretty useless and wards dont seem to affect anyone elses decision making(half of them don't even budge when mid runs past a river ward obviously going to gank them etc) I would probably still buy some wards regardless even if just to help me, but what 'good' item should i expand to? Scepter? sheepstick?

Look at the support items:

Mekansm, Urn, Janggo, Force Staff, Medallion, Pipe (in roughly this priority order, though it will vary from game to game depending on the need for each)

Pick 1-2 that aren't being bought by your teammates.

If you're really getting fed enough (people running around and not clearing lanes, forcing you to go farm them, or just picked up lots of kills), work toward BKB/Aghs/Blink in whatever order is most sensible for the game.

On December 31 2011 22:32 Dommk wrote:
I guess I still don't see it as a useful item--well rather useful for its cost, on heroes like Luna/Drow you are life stealing like 20-30hp a hit that early in the game and you foot around 2k~ to get it...the armor is great but something like a magic stick is only a fraction of the cost and provides amazing survivability for the price

Consider just the creep-stacking aspect. If you get about 100 gold from a creep camp, then over 10 minutes the item has more than half paid for itself. If you're using it to stack ancients that's more like 300 gold per camp, and it'll half pay for itself after having stacked the camp 3 times.

At the point where HotD has paid for half its own cost, it's cost-effective for the damage alone. The armor, the regen, the lifesteal, and the creep which can have an extra slow/stun/root or an aura is effectively free.
Moderator
Zinkon
Profile Joined January 2012
Lithuania2 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-01 21:31:25
January 01 2012 21:31 GMT
#93
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
January 01 2012 21:46 GMT
#94
On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?

Just get mask of madness instead (cheap way to make yourself useful). BKB is always useful, but if other team doesn't have many disables you can skip it. Orb items are fine on void. Butterfly is very nice on void because evasion stacks with timelapse, but MKB is fine if you need the trueshot for some reason.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-01 22:05:08
January 01 2012 21:55 GMT
#95
On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?

First of all, I will say that I disagree slightly with 5-s's build for FV--IMO Faceless Void should get Manta Style after Battlefury, and before the situational stuff like BKB. The utility of Manta Style is just too good to skip (the active not only gives you the DPS/pushing power of the illusions, but gives you 0.1 second invuln, removes all purge-able debuffs from you, forces your opponents to spend valuable time figuring out which one the real you is, etc.). Proper Manta usage makes it one of the most powerful and versatile DPS options available for a carry.

Battlefury-based builds are the most stable option for Faceless. Unlike someone like Anti-mage, Faceless doesn't have a bunch of reliable damage from abilities like Mana Break/Mana Void--he requires more itemization for his damage, so going a more midgame-skewed build like Vanguard->Manta is less likely to produce acceptable results. MoM-based builds are fairly popular in pub games, but IMO they are somewhat gimmicky.

BKB, as always, is situational. Prioritize it based on how much a threat magic damage/CC is, though other pure survivability options are not bad for FV either (e.g. Heart). MKB vs. Butterfly is again, situational. Butterfly is probably the better buy unless the True Strike is significant.

Most orbs are just not that good for FV (not anything to do with them being orbs--just the items themselves not suited for his needs). Manta is overall a better item to build your Yasha into than S&Y. BFury already covers your farming power needs (and is hence redundant with Maelstrom/Mjollnir). Stygian isn't that well-rounded of an item, and doesn't really have any specific synergy with FV's kit or his power curve. Diffusal, as always, is a situational buy depending on how useful the passive/active are.
Moderator
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 01 2012 23:11 GMT
#96
On January 02 2012 06:55 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 06:31 Zinkon wrote:
It says Battlefury is core on Faceless Void. But what if my farm is bad early game? Do I still get it?
Can I skip Black King Bar? Can I buy a Monkey King Bar before Butterfly? Why are orb items not bought for Void?

First of all, I will say that I disagree slightly with 5-s's build for FV--IMO Faceless Void should get Manta Style after Battlefury, and before the situational stuff like BKB. The utility of Manta Style is just too good to skip (the active not only gives you the DPS/pushing power of the illusions, but gives you 0.1 second invuln, removes all purge-able debuffs from you, forces your opponents to spend valuable time figuring out which one the real you is, etc.). Proper Manta usage makes it one of the most powerful and versatile DPS options available for a carry.

Battlefury-based builds are the most stable option for Faceless. Unlike someone like Anti-mage, Faceless doesn't have a bunch of reliable damage from abilities like Mana Break/Mana Void--he requires more itemization for his damage, so going a more midgame-skewed build like Vanguard->Manta is less likely to produce acceptable results. MoM-based builds are fairly popular in pub games, but IMO they are somewhat gimmicky.

BKB, as always, is situational. Prioritize it based on how much a threat magic damage/CC is, though other pure survivability options are not bad for FV either (e.g. Heart). MKB vs. Butterfly is again, situational. Butterfly is probably the better buy unless the True Strike is significant.

Most orbs are just not that good for FV (not anything to do with them being orbs--just the items themselves not suited for his needs). Manta is overall a better item to build your Yasha into than S&Y. BFury already covers your farming power needs (and is hence redundant with Maelstrom/Mjollnir). Stygian isn't that well-rounded of an item, and doesn't really have any specific synergy with FV's kit or his power curve. Diffusal, as always, is a situational buy depending on how useful the passive/active are.


I find that's really misleading actually...

Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-01 23:30:23
January 01 2012 23:20 GMT
#97
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.

Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV.

On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.

You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own.

The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it.

And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.
Moderator
cilinder007
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia7251 Posts
January 01 2012 23:29 GMT
#98
since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes


that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota

but I dissagree with almost your entire post too
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 01 2012 23:53 GMT
#99
On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.

Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV.

Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.

You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own.

The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it.

And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.


You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.


Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful.
Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's).



On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:
Show nested quote +
since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes


that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota

but I dissagree with almost your entire post too


That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.
Veles
Profile Joined May 2011
United States3280 Posts
January 02 2012 00:25 GMT
#100
On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:

You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.

That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.


No, you build battlefury when you have a good laning phase. Battlefury provides no real benefit compared to ring of health, vangaurd is what you get when you have a bad laning phase. Also, sven and magnus are the heroes that battlefury is a luxury for. It is core on melee carries that use it to farm and continue to benefit in the late game.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 01:07:11
January 02 2012 01:07 GMT
#101
On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.

Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV.

On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.

You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own.

The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it.

And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.


You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.


Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful.
Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's).



Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:
since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes


that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota

but I dissagree with almost your entire post too


That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.

You build BF if you have a good lane, then you have more time to reap the benefits of it.

Also, Hand of Midas is also an option on FV if your farm is not going well.
WriterXiao8~~
nufcrulz
Profile Joined February 2010
Singapore934 Posts
January 02 2012 02:05 GMT
#102
On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:
On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else.

Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV.

On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.

You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own.

The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it.

And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV.


You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury.


Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful.
Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's).



Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:
since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes


that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota

but I dissagree with almost your entire post too


That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.


how can you say battle fury isnt core on AM when almost every single pro who uses him goes battle fury to start off with? it just gives him insane farming ability which goes along with his good mobility through blink. it's what allows am to average at least 500 gpm in the later stages of the game.. of course in the late game you wanna sell you battle fury for another late game item, but in the mid stage of the game its very useful, especially since the game is very push oriented now.
MYKOKO
Profile Joined October 2011
France17 Posts
January 02 2012 03:12 GMT
#103
You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void.
Sm3agol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2055 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 05:56:52
January 02 2012 05:54 GMT
#104
Dota n00b here. I love playing furion, and have some build questions. I see you go midas right into shadow blade. I've been going more of a afk into early big dps route, starting with basilius ring, then going right into desolator and starting to cruise around the map with tps and his tele skill, killing the ancients every minute, and ganking where possible, avoiding direct big team fights as much as possible until I get assault curaiss and sheepstick or the silence wand thingy. Usually in my pub games, my team holds on/maybe stays somewhat even up to 30-40 minutes, and then I join team fights, sheepstick/silence then q their carry, and just pure dps their team and towers down with my now ridiculous pushing power, and just tp'ing out when things get hot.

So basically, i get ring, treads, desolator(not sure why I chose this weapon......it's "recommended"), assault curaiss, sheepstick, then start cruising around owning the crap out of people and just pushing everywhere, and raping the ancients/creep stacks every chance I get. I usually have 1-2 kills max by 30 minutes, but as soon as I start joining team fights I can usually drop 4-5 quick kills and push a rax down almost immediately until they start playing a lot more passive. This seems to be the "wong" way to play furion though, at least, i rarely see people doing that with him.
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
January 02 2012 06:25 GMT
#105
On January 02 2012 12:12 MYKOKO wrote:
You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void.


You go battle fury if the other team is playing very defensively, such as if they're trying to buy time for a radiance carry.

Battle fury is obviously a terrible idea if you have to team fight soon after you get it (say they have lycanthrope). But you have no chance of keeping up with a carry with aoe farming capabilities without battle fury, and maybe your team doesn't want to gamble that you can win the game before the other carry gets his big item.

I wouldn't call it core, because it's more of item to adapt to certain game situations.
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
January 02 2012 09:06 GMT
#106
On January 02 2012 14:54 Sm3agol wrote:
Dota n00b here. I love playing furion, and have some build questions. I see you go midas right into shadow blade. I've been going more of a afk into early big dps route, starting with basilius ring, then going right into desolator and starting to cruise around the map with tps and his tele skill, killing the ancients every minute, and ganking where possible, avoiding direct big team fights as much as possible until I get assault curaiss and sheepstick or the silence wand thingy. Usually in my pub games, my team holds on/maybe stays somewhat even up to 30-40 minutes, and then I join team fights, sheepstick/silence then q their carry, and just pure dps their team and towers down with my now ridiculous pushing power, and just tp'ing out when things get hot.

So basically, i get ring, treads, desolator(not sure why I chose this weapon......it's "recommended"), assault curaiss, sheepstick, then start cruising around owning the crap out of people and just pushing everywhere, and raping the ancients/creep stacks every chance I get. I usually have 1-2 kills max by 30 minutes, but as soon as I start joining team fights I can usually drop 4-5 quick kills and push a rax down almost immediately until they start playing a lot more passive. This seems to be the "wong" way to play furion though, at least, i rarely see people doing that with him.

this is barely even related to the thread, and you didn't even ask any build questions
but i'm going to answer your question through the power of telepathy and ignoring the extraneous 95% of your post
in a real game you have to be useful with furion early on, otherwise your opponents will just stomp your team 5v4
also if you're just going to farm for 30 minutes you should really just get a midas

On January 02 2012 15:25 igotmyown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 12:12 MYKOKO wrote:
You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void.


You go battle fury if the other team is playing very defensively, such as if they're trying to buy time for a radiance carry.

Battle fury is obviously a terrible idea if you have to team fight soon after you get it (say they have lycanthrope). But you have no chance of keeping up with a carry with aoe farming capabilities without battle fury, and maybe your team doesn't want to gamble that you can win the game before the other carry gets his big item.

I wouldn't call it core, because it's more of item to adapt to certain game situations.

it's core because it's a good item
the buildup is really nice, it adds a lot of damage, it provides a good amount of regen, and it gives you splash attack for more farm
it's rare to see a void or am without a battlefury because it's such a good item
am can go vanguard > manta if you're going to be really active early on, but it doesn't set him up as a lategame hard carry and battlefury is a safe build regardless of the situation
if you're "forced" to go mom instead of bfury on void you've probably already lost. mom first can work but it's pretty gimmicky, since you don't actually do very much damage but you die 30% faster
other builds are definitely possible on gondar/jugg, but battlefury first is still a simple and generally safe build
Corr
Profile Joined January 2009
Denmark796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 09:19:43
January 02 2012 09:14 GMT
#107
battle fury on carry = fast expansion in sc2
not battle fury on carry = you're all-in with your midgame against a better farming carry on the opposing team

if you don't get bfury and you make one mistake midgame causing you to die you'll be so far behind the opponent carry within 5-10 minutes if he's any good.
Think leoric/naix armlet strats a couple of years ago, they folded completely if their momentum was stopped midgame.

On top of that bfury has a great straight damage bonus as these days mkb/buriza are too one-dimensional items to get before super-lategame.

get bfury even on void if you had a shitty beginning as its probably your best chance of catchng up. If you're playing at the level where you can't judge yourself what the better option is then chances of you being able to get an item like MoM and judge correctly what you can and can't pull off with it are slim.
Zinkon
Profile Joined January 2012
Lithuania2 Posts
January 02 2012 09:49 GMT
#108
My usual build on Faceless Void looks like this:
Starting items: Stout Shield, 2xTangos, 1xSalve OR Stout Shield, 3xBranch, 1xTangos, 1xSalve
Sideshop items: Quelling Blade, Boots, Ring of Health, Treads.
Core items: Battlefury(if farm is good)/Vanguard(if farm is bad), Black King Bar(if needed), Monkey King Bar, Butterfly
Luxury items: Buriza, Assault Cuirass

Tell me if I can improve this build. Sorry I'm asking so many questions, it's just that Faceless Void is my favorite hero and I want to know as much about him as I can.
supdubdup
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States916 Posts
January 02 2012 10:44 GMT
#109
#PRO
Turn it Up
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 02 2012 11:24 GMT
#110
Tested:
First creepwave with 3 melee, 1 ranged and 1 catapult

Level 11 void, level 3 bash, first build: PT, Bfury
it took 18 seconds to clear out the entire wave with no friendly creeps and A-moving

Next, the same, except PT, MoM, Demon edge (this is even cheaper actually)
It took 19 seconds A-moving and pressing MoM.

Now, by the time you get these items obviously more melee creeps will spawn which makes battlefury better, but it's going to be negligible. You may farm a creepwave ~5-8 seconds faster maybe.

I did not test hero killing power, because that is obviously in MoM + Demon Edge's favor.

Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.

Verdict? Up to personal preference I'd say. Comparing Battlefury to an SC2 fast expansion is good, as it can really either end up in void (and other carries) getting uncontrollably fed, or losing them the game. It's actually not a terrible item but definitely not the only "core" you can get.

I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
January 02 2012 11:48 GMT
#111
On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Tested:
First creepwave with 3 melee, 1 ranged and 1 catapult

Level 11 void, level 3 bash, first build: PT, Bfury
it took 18 seconds to clear out the entire wave with no friendly creeps and A-moving

Next, the same, except PT, MoM, Demon edge (this is even cheaper actually)
It took 19 seconds A-moving and pressing MoM.

Now, by the time you get these items obviously more melee creeps will spawn which makes battlefury better, but it's going to be negligible. You may farm a creepwave ~5-8 seconds faster maybe.

I did not test hero killing power, because that is obviously in MoM + Demon Edge's favor.

Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.

Verdict? Up to personal preference I'd say. Comparing Battlefury to an SC2 fast expansion is good, as it can really either end up in void (and other carries) getting uncontrollably fed, or losing them the game. It's actually not a terrible item but definitely not the only "core" you can get.

I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?

you can't compare items like that
roh is much more useful in lane than a lifesteal mask, and each little part after that helps as well
battlefury also lets you spam your blink to farm, which makes a pretty big difference
and mom isn't running 100% of the time
on top of that you aren't amoving with bfury, you spread the damage and it's def faster by a noticable amount
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 16:10:27
January 02 2012 16:00 GMT
#112
On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.

A single-stack of Ancients sure.

Clearing a double- or triple-stack of Ancients with BFury vs. MoM? Not even a comparison.

Plus, by the time you get BFury, you're not going to just be clearing single waves of creeps. Often-times going to be clearing waves that have built up and are pushing to your side of the map that are 3+ creep waves strong.

On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?

Personally, I think BFury isn't that good on BH. Janggo is much more suited to what he does, but that's because he's not the late-game hard-carry monster that Faceless is. Faceless is fine farming his way through midgame, because if he actually GETS to farm, he'll crush everyone later. BH doesn't actually want to be farming like that, because of how comparatively gank-oriented he is, and how much less insane his late-game is.
Moderator
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
January 02 2012 16:04 GMT
#113
I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 16:08:37
January 02 2012 16:07 GMT
#114
On January 03 2012 01:04 Numy wrote:
I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers.

As 5-s stated, the DotA 1 "metagame" is pretty much irrelevant in the context of pubs.

As far as high-level games are concerned, well, Chinese teams just prefer not to pick AM/Void recently than to try and shoehorn them into the faster-paced style that's becoming prevalent--Void more so than AM, as a faster Vanguard->Manta build at least works on AM.
Moderator
RQShatter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States459 Posts
January 02 2012 16:08 GMT
#115
Battlefury is also great for solo pushing. Everything about it makes it a great item for void and AM
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 16:31:41
January 02 2012 16:30 GMT
#116
On January 03 2012 01:00 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.

A single-stack of Ancients sure.

Clearing a double- or triple-stack of Ancients with BFury vs. MoM? Not even a comparison.

Plus, by the time you get BFury, you're not going to just be clearing single waves of creeps. Often-times going to be clearing waves that have built up and are pushing to your side of the map that are 3+ creep waves strong.
.


But still Battlefury is over 2x the cost of MoM, and while you are making it, jungling is slower than with a completed MoM. Trying to kill heroes is also much easier with a MoM than with a Battlefury.
This is hard to prove, but getting a Battlefury actually does not always help you get your items faster. It delays you from getting a core item that your hero really needs. This statement got completely overlooked after Battlefury got some much needed buffs many versions ago, but it's still not good enough to become a core in every situation.

There are heroes who synergize with battlefury and make good use of it, but those aren't imo these two we are talking about. The other use for Battlefury would be in a wtfpwn matchup (like get dark seer and enigma in a team with you, make battlefury and some attackspeed -> get rampage in pubs).

If you get a really fast battlefury, then you can make an ultimately farmed Void then proceed to win the game, but my point is that in these cases, you could have probably won with any other item, and this is the case of AM too. I don't doubt a battlefury AM or Void can carry their teams to victory, but the risks outweigh the potential gains.

In some matchups it's favorable to have it, and it's not at all forgiving for the enemy to let you farm up a Battlefury and then go unchecked, but since it's so expensive it really shouldn't be gotten without some consideration.
This is why I don't like when people ask for an item build and the response they get is, to build a battlefury for X hero. It's just an option and it needs an explanation, with other items (that synergize with the hero's skills) included in the suggestions as well.


On January 03 2012 01:08 RQShatter wrote:
Battlefury is also great for solo pushing. Everything about it makes it a great item for void and AM

Neither of them have a single AoE spell or summons or anything that would make them pushers. They are supposed to be hero killers.
Qbek
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Poland12923 Posts
January 02 2012 16:51 GMT
#117
if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever
This space left intentionally dank /)3(\ http://i.imgur.com/RmeEUcF.png
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 02 2012 16:56 GMT
#118
On January 03 2012 01:51 Qbek wrote:
if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever

I wouldn't get both.

MoM is aiming to go to fights midgame and clean up kills during the period of time where it's worthwhile to have. Battlefury is aiming to farm and build toward bigger stuff before going to fights. They have diverging goals, and are awkward to play together.
Moderator
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 02 2012 17:09 GMT
#119
On January 03 2012 01:51 Qbek wrote:
if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever


MoM gives the best attack speed of all items, for Void it's very good unless you're rich and decide to make a Sata.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
January 02 2012 17:18 GMT
#120
On January 03 2012 01:07 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 01:04 Numy wrote:
I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers.

As 5-s stated, the DotA 1 "metagame" is pretty much irrelevant in the context of pubs.

As far as high-level games are concerned, well, Chinese teams just prefer not to pick AM/Void recently than to try and shoehorn them into the faster-paced style that's becoming prevalent--Void more so than AM, as a faster Vanguard->Manta build at least works on AM.


Oh I see i thought we were discussing what might work in the metagame. I apologise for that.
Kaiko
Profile Joined September 2010
209 Posts
January 02 2012 17:40 GMT
#121
On January 03 2012 01:30 Muki wrote:


Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 01:08 RQShatter wrote:
Battlefury is also great for solo pushing. Everything about it makes it a great item for void and AM

Neither of them have a single AoE spell or summons or anything that would make them pushers. They are supposed to be hero killers.


That's short sighted. Late game AM often pushes lanes alone before rejoining his team who is pushing another lane so the opposing team will have to handle two lanes. AM also can push alone very well if he has a battlefury (or into the late game) since he has such high mobility with his blink. Void same concept, except with less mobility.

Just because they don't have spells that center around pushing exclusively doesn't mean they can't. Can't recall the amount of games where an AM or Void pushes one lane with their team pushes another, Void/AM rejoin their team for the coming team-fight and their team loses because of the advantage the enemy team has being in their base, but they get a tower/rax anyways because of the push the AM/Void did previously.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
January 02 2012 18:15 GMT
#122
Stronger pushed lanes(3-4) packs are much more easily cleaned up with BF after which the FV can head into the jungle

also, a very small bonus is that BF cleaves heroes aswell, which IF you get a money Chronosphere can destroy multiple heroes or atleast significantly damage them.
WriterXiao8~~
Corr
Profile Joined January 2009
Denmark796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 09:21:03
January 03 2012 09:11 GMT
#123
I have done MoM before battle fury on Void in pubs quite often. The problem is that if MoM doesn't achieve what you want midgame then its essentially wasted and it'll only get in the way of your inventory at the 35+ minute mark. Especially if you're barely breaking even with the opponent side at that point the MoM is even less useful as you can't afford to receive additional damage as you don't have any significant hp items at this point and can't afford to get them as you'll fall behind in the dps you need in your Chrono.
What makes Battle Fury even better in pubs is the added speed with which you can push and jungle as your allies will rarely allow you maxmum farm you need every bit you can claim. You will get a quick Yasha right after battle fury which immediately puts you right back where you want to be in terms of dps at that time in the game.

Bfury on Gondar serves a bit of a different purpose. It helps you remain sufficiently ahead of the "real" carries on the opposing team when/if the game stalls in the later stages of midgame as he can't do much against a whole team with his lack of mobility.
Mortred is a bit trickier, what she really needs is level 16 and a BKB. Before then you should really do whatever suits the pace of the game. Sometimes that's getting hotd+wand and joining action whenever possible other times its getting bfury and jungling/playing it safe.
Sometimes you're required to get a vanguard on Magina first because you're required to participate in fights a lot starting early-midgame but getting bfury right after that is still the most solid option. My favorite option though is just getting the roh+vit booster making bfury and a heart from the vitbooster afterwards (or after manta, whatever the situation calls for).

The red thread through this is that battle fury in general is the safe option if you're a good farmer as most players don't know how far they can take their hero in a given situation in early-midgame fights which means you won't have anywhere near the items you need to have at the 30+ min mark because you died in fights and didn't get your farming item (bfury, hotd on luna/trax)
Noxie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2227 Posts
January 03 2012 14:30 GMT
#124
This is extremely helpful, thanks man. I love you.
Emperis
Profile Joined November 2011
Belgium34 Posts
January 05 2012 16:19 GMT
#125
Which heroes are good if you are new to DOTA2

I've played some games but i mostly got my ass kicked and didn't really know why. Probably because i don't know how to play more advanced heroes.
LoLAdriankat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4307 Posts
January 05 2012 19:14 GMT
#126
Lich, Lion, and Crystal Maiden are all easy supports. Tidehunter is an easy initiator. All of which have good ganking abilities. If you've played Starcraft for a decent amount of time, then you probably have good map awareness and positioning abilities, in that case, Sniper is an a good first carry (don't try to play carry until you got the basics though).
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
January 05 2012 22:42 GMT
#127
sniper and lion are not easy yo
lion in particular takes a bit of experience

lich is the easiest support, followed by probably cm/tide and then vs
skeleton king is the easiest carry, followed by naix and antimage and then probably sniper
Rice
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1332 Posts
January 06 2012 00:48 GMT
#128
I would not recommend sniper for a new player unless they enjoy dying a billion times.
Freedom will be defended at the cost of civil liberties.
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
January 10 2012 01:00 GMT
#129
Sniper is hard? o_O
what makes him hard? (ionno i came from LoL, not necessarily new to DotA/MOBA)
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 01:08:08
January 10 2012 01:07 GMT
#130
On January 10 2012 10:00 Kenpachi wrote:
Sniper is hard? o_O
what makes him hard? (ionno i came from LoL, not necessarily new to DotA/MOBA)


well Sniper is a full on, right click hero. Two of his skills are passives, one is an AoE slow and his Ult is on a very very short cooldown, around 20 secs if memory serves. Hes actually quite easy to play, but can be a bitch to keep alive.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
January 10 2012 02:15 GMT
#131
Unless your team is capable at protecting you, you wont get far as Sniper, he cant really take care of himself until lategame.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
January 10 2012 02:17 GMT
#132
If you're new to Dota2 (and didn't play Dota), just play Lich for 50 games. He's useful in every pub lineup, he's fun to play, and he's easy enough to play decently. You'll be able to learn how to play other heroes by watching teammates/enemies and you can practice warding + map awareness.
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
January 10 2012 02:19 GMT
#133
It's amazing. A+
kiss kiss fall in love
HyukeN
Profile Joined April 2006
United States85 Posts
January 18 2012 07:20 GMT
#134
Thanks for writing this. I find it very useful.
Its because we dont really know anything, aruging semantics is the best we have. -Smurg
coolcrimefighter
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States378 Posts
January 18 2012 07:30 GMT
#135
On January 10 2012 11:17 Durak wrote:
If you're new to Dota2 (and didn't play Dota), just play Lich for 50 games. He's useful in every pub lineup, he's fun to play, and he's easy enough to play decently. You'll be able to learn how to play other heroes by watching teammates/enemies and you can practice warding + map awareness.

right now I'm on my 20th straight game as lich and I don't know if I've seen any improvement yet
alia
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States294 Posts
January 18 2012 07:42 GMT
#136
I also recommend spamming Lich games.
Percutio
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1672 Posts
February 07 2012 01:23 GMT
#137
Is it possible to get this thread stickied? I find it very useful.
What does it matter how I loose it?
Mysti_
Profile Joined May 2011
France185 Posts
February 08 2012 21:32 GMT
#138
Thanks a lot for this quick guide I'm new and I would be totally lost without it, much love <3 !
"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space. I am less concerned about the later than the former. Space we can recover, lost time never." - "Ability is of little account without opportunity." Napoléon
TheOracle
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia256 Posts
February 09 2012 03:51 GMT
#139
These are really useful guides, thanks a ton. Any chance you could start adding in starting items for the character? (or just a couple of cookie cutter starts and list who to use them with?)
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
February 09 2012 04:52 GMT
#140
Almost every starting item for every hero is a combination of brances/ ring of protection / circlet / +3 int/agil/str / clarity / tango / salve. If your playing a support get wards/chick/crow instead of the more expensive 150g + items.

A little planning and understanding of your hero/role tells you what to start. For example if your going to get a basi ring, you can start with the ring of protection, if your going to get an urn gauntlets might be a good start item. Otherwise nothing beats the efficienty of brances, so they are great.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 20:01:06
February 09 2012 19:50 GMT
#141
On February 09 2012 13:52 randombum wrote:
Almost every starting item for every hero is a combination of brances/ ring of protection / circlet / +3 int/agil/str / clarity / tango / salve. If your playing a support get wards/chick/crow instead of the more expensive 150g + items.

A little planning and understanding of your hero/role tells you what to start. For example if your going to get a basi ring, you can start with the ring of protection, if your going to get an urn gauntlets might be a good start item. Otherwise nothing beats the efficienty of brances, so they are great.


Basically correct, let me sum it up though:
Healing pack: Salve + Tangos + Clarity = 240


Support ganker: Courier or Wards (170 / 200), Smoke of Deceit (100), Healing Pack (240), Branch (53)
Support non-ganker: Courier or Wards (170/200), Healing Pack (240), 2 branches + clarity or 3 branches (156 or 159)

Farming ranged carry: 2x +3 of your main attribute (300), Healing Pack (240), 1 branch (Can substitute extra branch for clarity if your hero does not need mana)
Bottle rush solo mid: 3x branches (159), 1 salve and/or tango (90 or 100)
Ranged solo side lane: ring of protection (175), healing pack (240), 2x branches (106) -> rush ring of basilius on side shop.

Melee carry defensive: Stout shield (250), 3x branch (159), Tango + Salve (190)
Melee carry offensive: Same as above, substitute stout shield with quelling blade (225)
Note: some melee heroes (particularly strength) should get similar items to the ranged carries, such as kunkka (2x gauntlet, 2x branch, tango + salve)

Invoker solo mid: blades of attack, salve, branch
Invoker solo long lane: boots of speed, salve
Bloodseeker solo mid: quelling blade (225), stout shield (250), salve (100)

Jungling heroes: get a bunch of regen, mass clarities if needed (enigma / furion: at least 4-5 clarities)
Darkseer Jungle: stout shield (250), Healing Pack (240), 1 Extra salve (100)
Roaming Earth Shaker: Courier / Wards (170 or 200), Tangos (90), Smoke of Deceit (100), 4x Clarities (200)

Let me know if there are any other weird heroes that you're not sure on for starting items. After playing for a while you get an idea of what you need, but the basics almost always include stats items and at least one salve and one tango.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheOracle
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia256 Posts
February 09 2012 21:40 GMT
#142
Thanks a ton, much appreciated.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
February 10 2012 15:00 GMT
#143
On December 27 2011 14:53 5-s wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 14:48 myopia wrote:
Great thread, one comment though... Bfury on Gondar? I am by no means a good Dota player but SnY / Desolater / Vlads seem like much better calls if you're going for track team kills. I also always get phase for the chase + crit damage.

Bfury is there for one simple reason: perseverance is a great starting item for bh. His whole goal is to be constantly farming / tracking people when there are fights; he's essentially a ganking caster that turns into a dpser when you farm enough. There're certainly other ways to play him, but he needs the regen from one item or another. Getting some of the vlads components definitely also works.


The only time Bfury is viable is if you are the only carry mainly for farming but also because of the splash damage with your crit. Most people don't realize his crit can splash with bfury but first and foremost He is not a " Hard Carry", his role is ganking at all times unless he is the only late game you have. Never ever get phase boots (which will take you out of invis lol) always go treads for the HP and early on to help you farm with agi. Deso+ S*y, ORCHID, are all great items for him.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
February 10 2012 15:02 GMT
#144
On February 10 2012 04:50 5-s wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 13:52 randombum wrote:
Almost every starting item for every hero is a combination of brances/ ring of protection / circlet / +3 int/agil/str / clarity / tango / salve. If your playing a support get wards/chick/crow instead of the more expensive 150g + items.

A little planning and understanding of your hero/role tells you what to start. For example if your going to get a basi ring, you can start with the ring of protection, if your going to get an urn gauntlets might be a good start item. Otherwise nothing beats the efficienty of brances, so they are great.


Basically correct, let me sum it up though:
Healing pack: Salve + Tangos + Clarity = 240


Support ganker: Courier or Wards (170 / 200), Smoke of Deceit (100), Healing Pack (240), Branch (53)
Support non-ganker: Courier or Wards (170/200), Healing Pack (240), 2 branches + clarity or 3 branches (156 or 159)

Farming ranged carry: 2x +3 of your main attribute (300), Healing Pack (240), 1 branch (Can substitute extra branch for clarity if your hero does not need mana)
Bottle rush solo mid: 3x branches (159), 1 salve and/or tango (90 or 100)
Ranged solo side lane: ring of protection (175), healing pack (240), 2x branches (106) -> rush ring of basilius on side shop.

Melee carry defensive: Stout shield (250), 3x branch (159), Tango + Salve (190)
Melee carry offensive: Same as above, substitute stout shield with quelling blade (225)
Note: some melee heroes (particularly strength) should get similar items to the ranged carries, such as kunkka (2x gauntlet, 2x branch, tango + salve)

Invoker solo mid: blades of attack, salve, branch
Invoker solo long lane: boots of speed, salve
Bloodseeker solo mid: quelling blade (225), stout shield (250), salve (100)

Jungling heroes: get a bunch of regen, mass clarities if needed (enigma / furion: at least 4-5 clarities)
Darkseer Jungle: stout shield (250), Healing Pack (240), 1 Extra salve (100)
Roaming Earth Shaker: Courier / Wards (170 or 200), Tangos (90), Smoke of Deceit (100), 4x Clarities (200)

Let me know if there are any other weird heroes that you're not sure on for starting items. After playing for a while you get an idea of what you need, but the basics almost always include stats items and at least one salve and one tango.




This guy is not to be listened to ever... blades of attack as invoker mid lmao


If you guys want to learn how to play dota watch the pro's and if you can play with/against them. Pub builds are not effective against good players.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 15:10:34
February 10 2012 15:08 GMT
#145
On December 31 2011 22:44 Dead9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2011 22:10 Dommk wrote:
Why is Helm of the Dominator such a standard first item on carries these days?

I stopped playing DotA 2 years ago and it wasn't a very good idea back then. Mind you I've been playing Hon for the last 4months and recently got my Beta key, after around 60~ DotA2 games I still can't wrap my head around it. I don't get why people get it first on heroes like Drow and Dragonknight

the problem is ur assumption right here yo
there's very few heroes where hotd first is standard, and where it is standard it usually makes sense
drow and luna do a good amount of damage early on in the game, so hotd gives a reasonable amount of survivability and lets them jungle really fast
hotd first on dk isn't really standard, usually armlet and bkb are better (or pipe and jango if ur chinese)

it's the same idea in hon with mq, puppet, and mali

edit:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2011 22:36 BurningSera wrote:
i dont agree with many of these hero guides. i can actually tell that US playstyle is different from EU from reading these quick guides. i feel like there is an 'naiveness' in playing many of these heroes to make them become the 'hero' of the team. and almost all carry builds are pretty much saying 'go farm 40mins'.

lets say for example, i facepalm when i see bfury on bh. while perseverance is a fairly good item for him, you dont really need to complete bfury for him. i mean, jeez, why play bh when you are actually building the items for a PA.... bh is probably the top 5 sh!ttiest farmer in dota, he is designed to be a ganker. not a late game carry, not in a million years.

this is supposed to be a joke right
cus if it is it's not very funny
edit2: okay I'll bite
the builds are mostly pretty standard across all 3 regions (US/EU/asia). generally US/EU players use the same builds, while asia might change up a couple
the gondar build in question was standardized by chinese comp teams, though it isn't exactly an innovative build

pa is a useless hero with zero useful skills that can make a passable lategame carry if you can hold out 4v5. to put that into perspective, spectre, troll, am, and void are heroes that are more useful than pa in literally every single stage of the game (including lategame). gondar has track, jinada, permainvis, and a hefty nuke that ministuns
in terms of role, gondar is probably most comparable to slardar; he spends early-mid game farming up, midgame killing things, and lategame still killing things

but read what I have bolded there and get back to me
"read" because I can't imagine you actually read that before you posted it



He is actually right Eu and Na playstyle is much different. So much so that Navii and ehome are getting smashed in friendlies by us NA players. It isn't that we're "better" it's just most of us came from play competitve in Hon, which is 1000x faster than dota. So they have no answers for our ganks and pushes or our builds. For instance sniper in dota gets loathers, however in hon, he does not he plays incredibly passive (until farmed) and stadard items are s+y and deso or Attack speed Maelstrom + MKB (charged hammer and savage mace I think?). Another huge difference is beastmaster gets the hon equivalent to Elders (mask of madness) , assualt curaiss but in Hon we go necromicon + blink ( mainly to block with the minions, true sight, and blink). EU players dominated dota for so long but now that NA players have become well versed in the art of dota our differences are creating quite the matchup.
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 15:49:25
February 10 2012 15:48 GMT
#146
Where exactly do you see beastmasters getting a mask of madness and an ac instead of a necro? I mean, it's even on the recommended item list, and some of those are pretty retarded. I can only assume you're trolling, sarcastic, or playing with drunks.
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
cilinder007
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia7251 Posts
February 10 2012 15:52 GMT
#147
and sniper going lothars ? yea maybe in low lvl mmr pubs but please show me a competitive game where sniper went lothars or a bm going mom pls.....
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 10 2012 16:09 GMT
#148
On February 11 2012 00:08 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
He is actually right Eu and Na playstyle is much different. So much so that Navii and ehome are getting smashed in friendlies by us NA players. It isn't that we're "better" it's just most of us came from play competitve in Hon, which is 1000x faster than dota. So they have no answers for our ganks and pushes or our builds. For instance sniper in dota gets loathers, however in hon, he does not he plays incredibly passive (until farmed) and stadard items are s+y and deso or Attack speed Maelstrom + MKB (charged hammer and savage mace I think?). Another huge difference is beastmaster gets the hon equivalent to Elders (mask of madness) , assualt curaiss but in Hon we go necromicon + blink ( mainly to block with the minions, true sight, and blink). EU players dominated dota for so long but now that NA players have become well versed in the art of dota our differences are creating quite the matchup.

Where are you getting these build ideas? No proper Sniper gets Lothar's, and MoM->Cuirass is in no way a proper Beastmaster build.

As an aside, my new favorite way to play Beastmaster is a build I saw Xiao8 do in a Chinese competitive game.

Max Axes, then Inner Beast, only skilling Call of the Wild when those two are maxed. Push the shit out of mid lane, have rune control when the creep wave is always pushing the enemy tower. Gank when you have your ultimate, and take towers afterwards. If your opponent tries to leave the lane to gank, shove down his tower in like 10 seconds because the +40% attack speed aura is amazing for your tower pushing speed.

Items: Bottle->Arcanes->Mekansm (yes, that's right, Mek on Beastmaster)->Pipe/Vlad's/AC/other situational aura stuff.
Moderator
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
February 10 2012 16:33 GMT
#149
I assume the rest of his team had at least some summons, possibly a furion to help with the snap pushes?
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
February 10 2012 16:47 GMT
#150
On February 11 2012 00:02 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 04:50 5-s wrote:
On February 09 2012 13:52 randombum wrote:
Almost every starting item for every hero is a combination of brances/ ring of protection / circlet / +3 int/agil/str / clarity / tango / salve. If your playing a support get wards/chick/crow instead of the more expensive 150g + items.

A little planning and understanding of your hero/role tells you what to start. For example if your going to get a basi ring, you can start with the ring of protection, if your going to get an urn gauntlets might be a good start item. Otherwise nothing beats the efficienty of brances, so they are great.


Basically correct, let me sum it up though:
Healing pack: Salve + Tangos + Clarity = 240


Support ganker: Courier or Wards (170 / 200), Smoke of Deceit (100), Healing Pack (240), Branch (53)
Support non-ganker: Courier or Wards (170/200), Healing Pack (240), 2 branches + clarity or 3 branches (156 or 159)

Farming ranged carry: 2x +3 of your main attribute (300), Healing Pack (240), 1 branch (Can substitute extra branch for clarity if your hero does not need mana)
Bottle rush solo mid: 3x branches (159), 1 salve and/or tango (90 or 100)
Ranged solo side lane: ring of protection (175), healing pack (240), 2x branches (106) -> rush ring of basilius on side shop.

Melee carry defensive: Stout shield (250), 3x branch (159), Tango + Salve (190)
Melee carry offensive: Same as above, substitute stout shield with quelling blade (225)
Note: some melee heroes (particularly strength) should get similar items to the ranged carries, such as kunkka (2x gauntlet, 2x branch, tango + salve)

Invoker solo mid: blades of attack, salve, branch
Invoker solo long lane: boots of speed, salve
Bloodseeker solo mid: quelling blade (225), stout shield (250), salve (100)

Jungling heroes: get a bunch of regen, mass clarities if needed (enigma / furion: at least 4-5 clarities)
Darkseer Jungle: stout shield (250), Healing Pack (240), 1 Extra salve (100)
Roaming Earth Shaker: Courier / Wards (170 or 200), Tangos (90), Smoke of Deceit (100), 4x Clarities (200)

Let me know if there are any other weird heroes that you're not sure on for starting items. After playing for a while you get an idea of what you need, but the basics almost always include stats items and at least one salve and one tango.




This guy is not to be listened to ever... blades of attack as invoker mid lmao


If you guys want to learn how to play dota watch the pro's and if you can play with/against them. Pub builds are not effective against good players.

I appreciate your insightful comment, but blades of attack mid is a build I've seen both dendi and bulba do. Are they doing it wrong or what? Phase boot rush on invoker is exceedingly common, and he does not need the stats or as much regen as other heroes since everyone starts with coldsnap.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
February 10 2012 20:50 GMT
#151
On February 11 2012 01:47 5-s wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 00:02 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
On February 10 2012 04:50 5-s wrote:
On February 09 2012 13:52 randombum wrote:
Almost every starting item for every hero is a combination of brances/ ring of protection / circlet / +3 int/agil/str / clarity / tango / salve. If your playing a support get wards/chick/crow instead of the more expensive 150g + items.

A little planning and understanding of your hero/role tells you what to start. For example if your going to get a basi ring, you can start with the ring of protection, if your going to get an urn gauntlets might be a good start item. Otherwise nothing beats the efficienty of brances, so they are great.


Basically correct, let me sum it up though:
Healing pack: Salve + Tangos + Clarity = 240


Support ganker: Courier or Wards (170 / 200), Smoke of Deceit (100), Healing Pack (240), Branch (53)
Support non-ganker: Courier or Wards (170/200), Healing Pack (240), 2 branches + clarity or 3 branches (156 or 159)

Farming ranged carry: 2x +3 of your main attribute (300), Healing Pack (240), 1 branch (Can substitute extra branch for clarity if your hero does not need mana)
Bottle rush solo mid: 3x branches (159), 1 salve and/or tango (90 or 100)
Ranged solo side lane: ring of protection (175), healing pack (240), 2x branches (106) -> rush ring of basilius on side shop.

Melee carry defensive: Stout shield (250), 3x branch (159), Tango + Salve (190)
Melee carry offensive: Same as above, substitute stout shield with quelling blade (225)
Note: some melee heroes (particularly strength) should get similar items to the ranged carries, such as kunkka (2x gauntlet, 2x branch, tango + salve)

Invoker solo mid: blades of attack, salve, branch
Invoker solo long lane: boots of speed, salve
Bloodseeker solo mid: quelling blade (225), stout shield (250), salve (100)

Jungling heroes: get a bunch of regen, mass clarities if needed (enigma / furion: at least 4-5 clarities)
Darkseer Jungle: stout shield (250), Healing Pack (240), 1 Extra salve (100)
Roaming Earth Shaker: Courier / Wards (170 or 200), Tangos (90), Smoke of Deceit (100), 4x Clarities (200)

Let me know if there are any other weird heroes that you're not sure on for starting items. After playing for a while you get an idea of what you need, but the basics almost always include stats items and at least one salve and one tango.




This guy is not to be listened to ever... blades of attack as invoker mid lmao


If you guys want to learn how to play dota watch the pro's and if you can play with/against them. Pub builds are not effective against good players.

I appreciate your insightful comment, but blades of attack mid is a build I've seen both dendi and bulba do. Are they doing it wrong or what? Phase boot rush on invoker is exceedingly common, and he does not need the stats or as much regen as other heroes since everyone starts with coldsnap.



I actually play with dendi so I can tell you something he did one time does not quantify as something he does all the time... lmao...

WOW no tto mention the game he did it in was during an invitational which was used as practice for Navii anyway... lmao.

Rushing phase boots is fine but that as a starting item generally isn't, of course, if you're a pro by all means get what you want there is usually a method to your madness, telling someone who isn't to get it is setting them up for failure.

As for BM items i've seen it all too often and think it is so dumb its not worth expressing but seeing how you don't read I needed to state this.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
February 10 2012 20:52 GMT
#152
On February 11 2012 01:09 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 00:08 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
He is actually right Eu and Na playstyle is much different. So much so that Navii and ehome are getting smashed in friendlies by us NA players. It isn't that we're "better" it's just most of us came from play competitve in Hon, which is 1000x faster than dota. So they have no answers for our ganks and pushes or our builds. For instance sniper in dota gets loathers, however in hon, he does not he plays incredibly passive (until farmed) and stadard items are s+y and deso or Attack speed Maelstrom + MKB (charged hammer and savage mace I think?). Another huge difference is beastmaster gets the hon equivalent to Elders (mask of madness) , assualt curaiss but in Hon we go necromicon + blink ( mainly to block with the minions, true sight, and blink). EU players dominated dota for so long but now that NA players have become well versed in the art of dota our differences are creating quite the matchup.

Where are you getting these build ideas? No proper Sniper gets Lothar's, and MoM->Cuirass is in no way a proper Beastmaster build.

As an aside, my new favorite way to play Beastmaster is a build I saw Xiao8 do in a Chinese competitive game.

Max Axes, then Inner Beast, only skilling Call of the Wild when those two are maxed. Push the shit out of mid lane, have rune control when the creep wave is always pushing the enemy tower. Gank when you have your ultimate, and take towers afterwards. If your opponent tries to leave the lane to gank, shove down his tower in like 10 seconds because the +40% attack speed aura is amazing for your tower pushing speed.

Items: Bottle->Arcanes->Mekansm (yes, that's right, Mek on Beastmaster)->Pipe/Vlad's/AC/other situational aura stuff.



That build isn't new.... lmao

Youi're about 2 years late this is actually Tundra is played/built FYI (I believe I made this point earlier... hmmm weird)

Also any Beast who does not level his 2nd ability first is seriously not doing it right period. The effectiveness of the sight/ pet harrass is always going to be > than an extra 80 damage or so on your axes or the 40 attackspeed passive.
ThaGoodsVol1
Profile Joined February 2012
45 Posts
February 10 2012 20:55 GMT
#153
On February 11 2012 00:52 cilinder007 wrote:
and sniper going lothars ? yea maybe in low lvl mmr pubs but please show me a competitive game where sniper went lothars or a bm going mom pls.....

EU regular build/ spend a day and play with them on their serves if you have a key. You'll laugh and then cry if he;s on your team.

I think the issue is someone of you aren't even in this open/closed beta. I've had a key since about 200 people were actively playing before they even had US E/w or Chinese servers so I got used to seeing this all the time. It's pretty lame and BTW outside of the premades which proteams/friends play you're always in "Pubs" since dota only recently started tracking skill as a viable matchmaking logarithm and I'm pretty sure I said EU players use those builds not EU pros mainly because SOMEONE ELSE SAID EU/NA players play the same way. So troll some more but this time don't look so foolish doing it please. I urge you kids to READ BEFORE POSTING

User was warned for this post
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 10 2012 21:41 GMT
#154
On February 11 2012 05:52 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 01:09 TheYango wrote:
On February 11 2012 00:08 ThaGoodsVol1 wrote:
He is actually right Eu and Na playstyle is much different. So much so that Navii and ehome are getting smashed in friendlies by us NA players. It isn't that we're "better" it's just most of us came from play competitve in Hon, which is 1000x faster than dota. So they have no answers for our ganks and pushes or our builds. For instance sniper in dota gets loathers, however in hon, he does not he plays incredibly passive (until farmed) and stadard items are s+y and deso or Attack speed Maelstrom + MKB (charged hammer and savage mace I think?). Another huge difference is beastmaster gets the hon equivalent to Elders (mask of madness) , assualt curaiss but in Hon we go necromicon + blink ( mainly to block with the minions, true sight, and blink). EU players dominated dota for so long but now that NA players have become well versed in the art of dota our differences are creating quite the matchup.

Where are you getting these build ideas? No proper Sniper gets Lothar's, and MoM->Cuirass is in no way a proper Beastmaster build.

As an aside, my new favorite way to play Beastmaster is a build I saw Xiao8 do in a Chinese competitive game.

Max Axes, then Inner Beast, only skilling Call of the Wild when those two are maxed. Push the shit out of mid lane, have rune control when the creep wave is always pushing the enemy tower. Gank when you have your ultimate, and take towers afterwards. If your opponent tries to leave the lane to gank, shove down his tower in like 10 seconds because the +40% attack speed aura is amazing for your tower pushing speed.

Items: Bottle->Arcanes->Mekansm (yes, that's right, Mek on Beastmaster)->Pipe/Vlad's/AC/other situational aura stuff.



That build isn't new.... lmao

Youi're about 2 years late this is actually Tundra is played/built FYI (I believe I made this point earlier... hmmm weird)

Also any Beast who does not level his 2nd ability first is seriously not doing it right period. The effectiveness of the sight/ pet harrass is always going to be > than an extra 80 damage or so on your axes or the 40 attackspeed passive.

Yup. You got me. One of the best Chinese Beastmaster players is clearly doing it wrong.
Moderator
Ack1027
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States7873 Posts
February 10 2012 21:53 GMT
#155
He plays with dendi.

ok?
BuLba
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1585 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#156
the blades of attack build for invoker is 430's build


r you gonna say you play with 430 too???
Corr
Profile Joined January 2009
Denmark796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 15:41:32
February 11 2012 15:39 GMT
#157
properly hon troll'd

to add something to what 5-s gave for starting builds; if you're solo mid playing at a low level you'll probably want to get a courier yourself. then you a) are certain you'll have one and b) it will be accessible, don't share it unless necessary. The stats you lose from it is very seldomly enough to decide mid @ pub level (i.e. never)
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-03 03:39:27
March 03 2012 03:39 GMT
#158
Was just watching coL vs Mouz in the Dota2Brawl and I'm wondering about Tiny's skill build. The lanes were:

Top - Mirana, Sand King vs Doom Bringer, Crystal Maiden, Venomancer
Mid - Tiny vs Shadow Shaman
Bot - Queen of Pain vs Windrunner
Jungle (Top) - Chen

Because of the way the early game played out, Tiny didn't get any early help from Chen or Sand King. He had to use avalanche to last hit creeps right before and after he got his bottle (level 2/3 ish).

My question is why SingSing skilled avalanche, toss, toss, avalanche, toss, grow, toss. I haven't done any math but it looks like a focus on toss damage and I'm wondering how it compares to the skill build in the OP.

Edit: Oh, and VOD is here if anyone cares.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
March 03 2012 07:25 GMT
#159
On March 03 2012 12:39 Durak wrote:
Was just watching coL vs Mouz in the Dota2Brawl and I'm wondering about Tiny's skill build. The lanes were:

Top - Mirana, Sand King vs Doom Bringer, Crystal Maiden, Venomancer
Mid - Tiny vs Shadow Shaman
Bot - Queen of Pain vs Windrunner
Jungle (Top) - Chen

Because of the way the early game played out, Tiny didn't get any early help from Chen or Sand King. He had to use avalanche to last hit creeps right before and after he got his bottle (level 2/3 ish).

My question is why SingSing skilled avalanche, toss, toss, avalanche, toss, grow, toss. I haven't done any math but it looks like a focus on toss damage and I'm wondering how it compares to the skill build in the OP.

Edit: Oh, and VOD is here if anyone cares.

Combo will do far less damage, but max toss is a viable build if you're either mana constrained or want to primarily push. You can clear waves extremely fast without having to use full combo with the above build.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
duckii
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany1017 Posts
March 03 2012 07:38 GMT
#160
also the early ms from growth does help quite a bit in certain situations
Canola
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada159 Posts
March 03 2012 18:39 GMT
#161
Thanks 5-s for these guides - very helpful. Used these a little while back when I started doing SD more and trying new heroes. Great reference!
Cloud_
Profile Joined February 2012
United States1 Post
March 09 2012 05:17 GMT
#162
5-s is a no life loser

User was banned for this post.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
March 09 2012 07:57 GMT
#163
5-s actually has many lives and is a winner
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
March 09 2012 08:08 GMT
#164
I'm used to Warlock builds centered around shadow word (of course 5-s had a shadow word build)

But in The Defense finals game 1, Navi skipped shadow word completely and went fatal 2 max upheaval. Warlock was laning with the AM. Obviously it's a better team fight build, but not so great for laning.

The casters mentioned that skipping shadow word is a popular among modern warlock builds. Can someone discuss this?
LayZRR
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany449 Posts
March 09 2012 09:19 GMT
#165
thanks. helped me alot. now i know which items are good and what to get myself. bu it was good for a start.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
March 10 2012 00:15 GMT
#166
On March 09 2012 17:08 igotmyown wrote:
I'm used to Warlock builds centered around shadow word (of course 5-s had a shadow word build)

But in The Defense finals game 1, Navi skipped shadow word completely and went fatal 2 max upheaval. Warlock was laning with the AM. Obviously it's a better team fight build, but not so great for laning.

The casters mentioned that skipping shadow word is a popular among modern warlock builds. Can someone discuss this?

Note the recent Itsgosu match where warlock got banned as well. I suggested fatal / upheavel focused build a while back to some of the players, seems like other teams are starting to figure it out as well. Warlock's fatal bonds was considered IMBA at 20% / 5 targets, now it's 20% / 6 targets when maxed (and 20% all levels is really good). I think his main weakness comes from the extremely high cd of his ult : 165. This means it's not up every teamfight, I tend to notice I need another minute whenever there's consecutive teamfights. If he's not built around his ult, however, the other skills are amazing in big clashes.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 10 2012 03:56 GMT
#167
On March 09 2012 17:08 igotmyown wrote:
I'm used to Warlock builds centered around shadow word (of course 5-s had a shadow word build)

But in The Defense finals game 1, Navi skipped shadow word completely and went fatal 2 max upheaval. Warlock was laning with the AM. Obviously it's a better team fight build, but not so great for laning.

The casters mentioned that skipping shadow word is a popular among modern warlock builds. Can someone discuss this?

Warlock got played a few times in G-1 League in China over the last month. IIRC they used Shadow Word>Fatal Bonds>Upheaval every time.
Moderator
CongoJack
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada417 Posts
March 17 2012 04:28 GMT
#168
Just wanted to post to say thanks found this very useful.
Miicr0
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands133 Posts
March 26 2012 21:45 GMT
#169
Inded, thank you very much for your basic builds per hero. Now I feel like I at least have a plan (I got into the beta 2 weeks ago) and I finally start to see what items are viable for which kind of playstyle! Thanks
Learning from the best is the best way of learning...
insourcecertainty
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States142 Posts
March 27 2012 01:21 GMT
#170
Awesome!!! Pretty straight forward and informative.
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
March 28 2012 01:45 GMT
#171
Thanks, very helpful guides for a noob!
Push 2 Harder
VPCursed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
1044 Posts
April 02 2012 18:28 GMT
#172
hey, any plans to update this soon?
punk44244
Profile Joined October 2010
United States48 Posts
April 04 2012 19:12 GMT
#173
Very nice guide!

I am rather new to DotA but have always played HoN!

I am glad to find this and get better.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
April 08 2012 14:25 GMT
#174
ultimate scepter is agha?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Erandorr
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
2283 Posts
April 08 2012 17:49 GMT
#175
On April 08 2012 23:25 Erasme wrote:
ultimate scepter is agha?


no the other one

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry :/
Grombidal
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden49 Posts
April 08 2012 18:00 GMT
#176
On April 08 2012 23:25 Erasme wrote:
ultimate scepter is agha?


yes I belive aghanims scepter is sometimes reffered to as "ultimate scepter" since it buffs the ultimate of some heroes.
Flatout all the time
Dankleteer
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1430 Posts
April 11 2012 18:57 GMT
#177
Thank you so much for this, these guides are lifesavers in single draft.
fresh chops
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
June 12 2012 13:06 GMT
#178
Awesome guides, I might have to put this in my favorites.

I disagree on your best beginner build for invoker though, if you're a real noob, you should use exort quas. It's pure right-click carrying. You pretty much max exort with quas in between, getting invoke on lvl 3 (for coldsnap) and again when you have 4 exort and 2 quas for Elementals. You never have to use invoke again, you simply keep elementals up all the time and use cold snap for ganking. Obviously not worth using in high level games, but it's ridiculously effective on low levels and extremely easy to play. Find enemy, cold snap, rightclick, win. Start with blades of attack+tango, then go for phase boots and wand immediately, then farm mid like crazy for assault cuirass, then your core is done and you'll be owning. Not only is it extremely strong for ganking, you can also push towers solo really easily.
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
June 12 2012 13:36 GMT
#179
On June 12 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:
Awesome guides, I might have to put this in my favorites.

I disagree on your best beginner build for invoker though, if you're a real noob, you should use exort quas. It's pure right-click carrying. You pretty much max exort with quas in between, getting invoke on lvl 3 (for coldsnap) and again when you have 4 exort and 2 quas for Elementals. You never have to use invoke again, you simply keep elementals up all the time and use cold snap for ganking. Obviously not worth using in high level games, but it's ridiculously effective on low levels and extremely easy to play. Find enemy, cold snap, rightclick, win. Start with blades of attack+tango, then go for phase boots and wand immediately, then farm mid like crazy for assault cuirass, then your core is done and you'll be owning. Not only is it extremely strong for ganking, you can also push towers solo really easily.

This was written pre-nerf, when emp tornado was even better. Something to consider though, thanks.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Cool Cat
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1644 Posts
June 12 2012 21:19 GMT
#180
yo 5-s you're ownage. you should stop throwing though.
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 01:17:25
June 17 2012 01:17 GMT
#181
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:
Awesome guides, I might have to put this in my favorites.

I disagree on your best beginner build for invoker though, if you're a real noob, you should use exort quas. It's pure right-click carrying. You pretty much max exort with quas in between, getting invoke on lvl 3 (for coldsnap) and again when you have 4 exort and 2 quas for Elementals. You never have to use invoke again, you simply keep elementals up all the time and use cold snap for ganking. Obviously not worth using in high level games, but it's ridiculously effective on low levels and extremely easy to play. Find enemy, cold snap, rightclick, win. Start with blades of attack+tango, then go for phase boots and wand immediately, then farm mid like crazy for assault cuirass, then your core is done and you'll be owning. Not only is it extremely strong for ganking, you can also push towers solo really easily.

I think exort quas is a decent build at any level, no? Almost every tournament game I watch exort is maxed first to help ganks with sun strikes all over the place. Sand king or another long stun + sun strike almost always means a kill.
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
June 17 2012 01:43 GMT
#182
On June 17 2012 10:17 0mgVitaminE wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:
Awesome guides, I might have to put this in my favorites.

I disagree on your best beginner build for invoker though, if you're a real noob, you should use exort quas. It's pure right-click carrying. You pretty much max exort with quas in between, getting invoke on lvl 3 (for coldsnap) and again when you have 4 exort and 2 quas for Elementals. You never have to use invoke again, you simply keep elementals up all the time and use cold snap for ganking. Obviously not worth using in high level games, but it's ridiculously effective on low levels and extremely easy to play. Find enemy, cold snap, rightclick, win. Start with blades of attack+tango, then go for phase boots and wand immediately, then farm mid like crazy for assault cuirass, then your core is done and you'll be owning. Not only is it extremely strong for ganking, you can also push towers solo really easily.

I think exort quas is a decent build at any level, no? Almost every tournament game I watch exort is maxed first to help ganks with sun strikes all over the place. Sand king or another long stun + sun strike almost always means a kill.


Yes. What he said is that Exort + Quas is also easier. It doesn't mean it becomes a bad build if you play better. It's not only for noobs, it's just more noob friendly.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
June 21 2012 16:42 GMT
#183
On June 17 2012 10:43 SKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 10:17 0mgVitaminE wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:
Awesome guides, I might have to put this in my favorites.

I disagree on your best beginner build for invoker though, if you're a real noob, you should use exort quas. It's pure right-click carrying. You pretty much max exort with quas in between, getting invoke on lvl 3 (for coldsnap) and again when you have 4 exort and 2 quas for Elementals. You never have to use invoke again, you simply keep elementals up all the time and use cold snap for ganking. Obviously not worth using in high level games, but it's ridiculously effective on low levels and extremely easy to play. Find enemy, cold snap, rightclick, win. Start with blades of attack+tango, then go for phase boots and wand immediately, then farm mid like crazy for assault cuirass, then your core is done and you'll be owning. Not only is it extremely strong for ganking, you can also push towers solo really easily.

I think exort quas is a decent build at any level, no? Almost every tournament game I watch exort is maxed first to help ganks with sun strikes all over the place. Sand king or another long stun + sun strike almost always means a kill.


Yes. What he said is that Exort + Quas is also easier. It doesn't mean it becomes a bad build if you play better. It's not only for noobs, it's just more noob friendly.

Exactly. When when you play it "the nooby way", you don't use sunstrike since it's decently hard to use well and you don't "want" to use invoke since it's easier not to and you don't have to put any points in it. When you're better at invoker, you can of course start with the quas exort and then still use all the other spells which make invoker such a great hero.
Fydor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada43 Posts
July 17 2013 02:28 GMT
#184
Sorry to post in such an old thread, but its a sticky so hopefully that is OK. Are these build suggestions still relevant for a new player to follow? or has the game changed too much?
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-17 02:38:02
July 17 2013 02:34 GMT
#185
theyre outdated
still usable if youre new though
edit: iirc dota2alttab or something similar had decent guides
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
July 17 2013 05:10 GMT
#186
just ask 5-s to redo the guides hes the 2nd best chen in north america you may have heard of him
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34490 Posts
July 17 2013 09:23 GMT
#187
It's not actually a sticky heh, but it is indeed linked in one of the stickies. I've asked 5-s a few times to update these but he seems too busy. I may do a full rewrite sometime soon since it is a pretty good resource.
Moderator
hrough
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany212 Posts
July 17 2013 10:07 GMT
#188
On July 17 2013 18:23 Firebolt145 wrote:
It's not actually a sticky heh, but it is indeed linked in one of the stickies. I've asked 5-s a few times to update these but he seems too busy. I may do a full rewrite sometime soon since it is a pretty good resource.


If you will do this and would like some help just sent me a pm. My dota knowledge isn't as bad as my play and should be enough for a lot of heroes and this "guide" is far too useful to not get it up to date.
Make it idiot proof and someone is going to invent a better idiot...
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
July 17 2013 10:49 GMT
#189
can just link to dota2alttab
Doomblaze
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1292 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-17 16:22:02
July 17 2013 14:01 GMT
#190
I updated the list, where should i post it?
In Mushi we trust
idscy
Profile Joined June 2011
United States256 Posts
July 17 2013 18:52 GMT
#191
Why not just post here... peer review :D
Doomblaze
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1292 Posts
July 18 2013 10:37 GMT
#192
cause then we get a giant wall of text on the 10th page of a thread instead of the OP

also cause i'm right and you're wrong and you cant change my mind
In Mushi we trust
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
July 18 2013 10:39 GMT
#193
I hear spoiler tags are pretty cool.
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
September 05 2013 03:09 GMT
#194
You could probably just post it in a spoiler tag.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34490 Posts
September 05 2013 06:50 GMT
#195
This thread is out of date.

New 30 second guides are here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=424185
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