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Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else. Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV. On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own. The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it. And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV. You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place. Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury. Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful. Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's). Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota but I dissagree with almost your entire post too That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.
You build BF if you have a good lane, then you have more time to reap the benefits of it.
Also, Hand of Midas is also an option on FV if your farm is not going well.
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On January 02 2012 08:53 Muki wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Battlefury should never be considered for a hero like Void or AM. Even if you're only trying to make a sick pubstomping build, if you can win it with battlefury probably you could have won it better with anything else. Then you will have to explain to me why a "bad" build like BFury->Manta is seen maybe half the time in competitive play on AM, and almost all the time on FV. On January 02 2012 08:11 Muki wrote:
Manta also doesn't have synergy for void since his illusions don't get bash (unlike AM's manaburn) and they are really easy to kill with aoe spells. Void needs MoM and Butterfly/MKB vs evasion in almost every case, since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes, and not farming or pushing.
You don't need super-good synergy with Manta for it to be a great buy. It's cost-effective, has well-rounded stat gains, and extremely good utility on it's own. The vast majority of carries that build Manta actually don't have any special explicit synergy with it. And not farming or pushing? FV is one of the hardest lategame carries in the game. Of course you're going to be farming with FV. You build battlefury I guess because you assume he will get a very bad laning phase, but that shouldn't happen in the first place. Battlefury is just an epidemic like S&Y used to be, for a very long time in dota. If you make a battlefury as first item (unless it's at an insane like ~15 mins time) and you win, then it's not your battlefury that is to thank but the enemy team for letting you freefarm with it. Heroes that benefit from battlefury? Sven, Magnus and a few others once they already got their core items. For almost every agi carry out there, their core dps item > battlefury. Manta is a great buy, but for like the last item when your illusions actually do something. Serious opponents won't wait 60 minutes for void to farm up necessities with battlefury, and with just that he's not very useful. Also Manta does actually synergize with most of it's builders - they are usually ranged, or the illusions themselves are dangerous (like AM). Void's skills, except for his ult, actually desynergize with Manta until his very lategame stats make up for it (compare terrorblade or AM agility and BAT to void's). Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:29 cilinder007 wrote:since his job is to quickly 1v1 key enemy heroes that is not even remotely his job, his job is taking out 2-3 support heros before the fight even happens and to do that he needs to farm as much as possible, a fully farmed void is the scariest hero in dota but I dissagree with almost your entire post too That's actually the same thing I was saying except you put it with different words.
how can you say battle fury isnt core on AM when almost every single pro who uses him goes battle fury to start off with? it just gives him insane farming ability which goes along with his good mobility through blink. it's what allows am to average at least 500 gpm in the later stages of the game.. of course in the late game you wanna sell you battle fury for another late game item, but in the mid stage of the game its very useful, especially since the game is very push oriented now.
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You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void.
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Dota n00b here. I love playing furion, and have some build questions. I see you go midas right into shadow blade. I've been going more of a afk into early big dps route, starting with basilius ring, then going right into desolator and starting to cruise around the map with tps and his tele skill, killing the ancients every minute, and ganking where possible, avoiding direct big team fights as much as possible until I get assault curaiss and sheepstick or the silence wand thingy. Usually in my pub games, my team holds on/maybe stays somewhat even up to 30-40 minutes, and then I join team fights, sheepstick/silence then q their carry, and just pure dps their team and towers down with my now ridiculous pushing power, and just tp'ing out when things get hot.
So basically, i get ring, treads, desolator(not sure why I chose this weapon......it's "recommended"), assault curaiss, sheepstick, then start cruising around owning the crap out of people and just pushing everywhere, and raping the ancients/creep stacks every chance I get. I usually have 1-2 kills max by 30 minutes, but as soon as I start joining team fights I can usually drop 4-5 quick kills and push a rax down almost immediately until they start playing a lot more passive. This seems to be the "wong" way to play furion though, at least, i rarely see people doing that with him.
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On January 02 2012 12:12 MYKOKO wrote:
You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void.
You go battle fury if the other team is playing very defensively, such as if they're trying to buy time for a radiance carry.
Battle fury is obviously a terrible idea if you have to team fight soon after you get it (say they have lycanthrope). But you have no chance of keeping up with a carry with aoe farming capabilities without battle fury, and maybe your team doesn't want to gamble that you can win the game before the other carry gets his big item.
I wouldn't call it core, because it's more of item to adapt to certain game situations.
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On January 02 2012 14:54 Sm3agol wrote:
Dota n00b here. I love playing furion, and have some build questions. I see you go midas right into shadow blade. I've been going more of a afk into early big dps route, starting with basilius ring, then going right into desolator and starting to cruise around the map with tps and his tele skill, killing the ancients every minute, and ganking where possible, avoiding direct big team fights as much as possible until I get assault curaiss and sheepstick or the silence wand thingy. Usually in my pub games, my team holds on/maybe stays somewhat even up to 30-40 minutes, and then I join team fights, sheepstick/silence then q their carry, and just pure dps their team and towers down with my now ridiculous pushing power, and just tp'ing out when things get hot.
So basically, i get ring, treads, desolator(not sure why I chose this weapon......it's "recommended"), assault curaiss, sheepstick, then start cruising around owning the crap out of people and just pushing everywhere, and raping the ancients/creep stacks every chance I get. I usually have 1-2 kills max by 30 minutes, but as soon as I start joining team fights I can usually drop 4-5 quick kills and push a rax down almost immediately until they start playing a lot more passive. This seems to be the "wong" way to play furion though, at least, i rarely see people doing that with him.
this is barely even related to the thread, and you didn't even ask any build questions
but i'm going to answer your question through the power of telepathy and ignoring the extraneous 95% of your post
in a real game you have to be useful with furion early on, otherwise your opponents will just stomp your team 5v4
also if you're just going to farm for 30 minutes you should really just get a midas
On January 02 2012 15:25 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 12:12 MYKOKO wrote:
You actually go battlefury if you had great farm in lane to further ciment your farming lead. If you get it too late you won't do any good in team fights for a very long time. I find it true both for AM and faceless void. You go battle fury if the other team is playing very defensively, such as if they're trying to buy time for a radiance carry. Battle fury is obviously a terrible idea if you have to team fight soon after you get it (say they have lycanthrope). But you have no chance of keeping up with a carry with aoe farming capabilities without battle fury, and maybe your team doesn't want to gamble that you can win the game before the other carry gets his big item. I wouldn't call it core, because it's more of item to adapt to certain game situations.
it's core because it's a good item
the buildup is really nice, it adds a lot of damage, it provides a good amount of regen, and it gives you splash attack for more farm
it's rare to see a void or am without a battlefury because it's such a good item
am can go vanguard > manta if you're going to be really active early on, but it doesn't set him up as a lategame hard carry and battlefury is a safe build regardless of the situation
if you're "forced" to go mom instead of bfury on void you've probably already lost. mom first can work but it's pretty gimmicky, since you don't actually do very much damage but you die 30% faster
other builds are definitely possible on gondar/jugg, but battlefury first is still a simple and generally safe build
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battle fury on carry = fast expansion in sc2
not battle fury on carry = you're all-in with your midgame against a better farming carry on the opposing team
if you don't get bfury and you make one mistake midgame causing you to die you'll be so far behind the opponent carry within 5-10 minutes if he's any good.
Think leoric/naix armlet strats a couple of years ago, they folded completely if their momentum was stopped midgame.
On top of that bfury has a great straight damage bonus as these days mkb/buriza are too one-dimensional items to get before super-lategame.
get bfury even on void if you had a shitty beginning as its probably your best chance of catchng up. If you're playing at the level where you can't judge yourself what the better option is then chances of you being able to get an item like MoM and judge correctly what you can and can't pull off with it are slim.
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My usual build on Faceless Void looks like this:
Starting items: Stout Shield, 2xTangos, 1xSalve OR Stout Shield, 3xBranch, 1xTangos, 1xSalve
Sideshop items: Quelling Blade, Boots, Ring of Health, Treads.
Core items: Battlefury(if farm is good)/Vanguard(if farm is bad), Black King Bar(if needed), Monkey King Bar, Butterfly
Luxury items: Buriza, Assault Cuirass
Tell me if I can improve this build. Sorry I'm asking so many questions, it's just that Faceless Void is my favorite hero and I want to know as much about him as I can.
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Tested:
First creepwave with 3 melee, 1 ranged and 1 catapult
Level 11 void, level 3 bash, first build: PT, Bfury
it took 18 seconds to clear out the entire wave with no friendly creeps and A-moving
Next, the same, except PT, MoM, Demon edge (this is even cheaper actually)
It took 19 seconds A-moving and pressing MoM.
Now, by the time you get these items obviously more melee creeps will spawn which makes battlefury better, but it's going to be negligible. You may farm a creepwave ~5-8 seconds faster maybe.
I did not test hero killing power, because that is obviously in MoM + Demon Edge's favor.
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.
Verdict? Up to personal preference I'd say. Comparing Battlefury to an SC2 fast expansion is good, as it can really either end up in void (and other carries) getting uncontrollably fed, or losing them the game. It's actually not a terrible item but definitely not the only "core" you can get.
I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?
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On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Tested:
First creepwave with 3 melee, 1 ranged and 1 catapult
Level 11 void, level 3 bash, first build: PT, Bfury
it took 18 seconds to clear out the entire wave with no friendly creeps and A-moving
Next, the same, except PT, MoM, Demon edge (this is even cheaper actually)
It took 19 seconds A-moving and pressing MoM.
Now, by the time you get these items obviously more melee creeps will spawn which makes battlefury better, but it's going to be negligible. You may farm a creepwave ~5-8 seconds faster maybe.
I did not test hero killing power, because that is obviously in MoM + Demon Edge's favor.
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.
Verdict? Up to personal preference I'd say. Comparing Battlefury to an SC2 fast expansion is good, as it can really either end up in void (and other carries) getting uncontrollably fed, or losing them the game. It's actually not a terrible item but definitely not the only "core" you can get.
I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?
you can't compare items like that
roh is much more useful in lane than a lifesteal mask, and each little part after that helps as well
battlefury also lets you spam your blink to farm, which makes a pretty big difference
and mom isn't running 100% of the time
on top of that you aren't amoving with bfury, you spread the damage and it's def faster by a noticable amount
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.
A single-stack of Ancients sure.
Clearing a double- or triple-stack of Ancients with BFury vs. MoM? Not even a comparison.
Plus, by the time you get BFury, you're not going to just be clearing single waves of creeps. Often-times going to be clearing waves that have built up and are pushing to your side of the map that are 3+ creep waves strong.
On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
I'm curious those who claim Battlefury is that good, make it on other heroes like BH and Mortred as well? If yes, why?
Personally, I think BFury isn't that good on BH. Janggo is much more suited to what he does, but that's because he's not the late-game hard-carry monster that Faceless is. Faceless is fine farming his way through midgame, because if he actually GETS to farm, he'll crush everyone later. BH doesn't actually want to be farming like that, because of how comparatively gank-oriented he is, and how much less insane his late-game is.
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I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 03 2012 01:04 Numy wrote:
I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers.
As 5-s stated, the DotA 1 "metagame" is pretty much irrelevant in the context of pubs.
As far as high-level games are concerned, well, Chinese teams just prefer not to pick AM/Void recently than to try and shoehorn them into the faster-paced style that's becoming prevalent--Void more so than AM, as a faster Vanguard->Manta build at least works on AM.
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Battlefury is also great for solo pushing. Everything about it makes it a great item for void and AM
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On January 03 2012 01:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:24 Muki wrote:
Also with a single MoM you can farm ancients just as easily as if you were making battlefury, but your killing potential is much better. Obviously once you get battlefury, Void can easily wtfpwn the entire jungle very quickly.
A single-stack of Ancients sure. Clearing a double- or triple-stack of Ancients with BFury vs. MoM? Not even a comparison. Plus, by the time you get BFury, you're not going to just be clearing single waves of creeps. Often-times going to be clearing waves that have built up and are pushing to your side of the map that are 3+ creep waves strong. .
But still Battlefury is over 2x the cost of MoM, and while you are making it, jungling is slower than with a completed MoM. Trying to kill heroes is also much easier with a MoM than with a Battlefury.
This is hard to prove, but getting a Battlefury actually does not always help you get your items faster. It delays you from getting a core item that your hero really needs. This statement got completely overlooked after Battlefury got some much needed buffs many versions ago, but it's still not good enough to become a core in every situation.
There are heroes who synergize with battlefury and make good use of it, but those aren't imo these two we are talking about. The other use for Battlefury would be in a wtfpwn matchup (like get dark seer and enigma in a team with you, make battlefury and some attackspeed -> get rampage in pubs).
If you get a really fast battlefury, then you can make an ultimately farmed Void then proceed to win the game, but my point is that in these cases, you could have probably won with any other item, and this is the case of AM too. I don't doubt a battlefury AM or Void can carry their teams to victory, but the risks outweigh the potential gains.
In some matchups it's favorable to have it, and it's not at all forgiving for the enemy to let you farm up a Battlefury and then go unchecked, but since it's so expensive it really shouldn't be gotten without some consideration.
This is why I don't like when people ask for an item build and the response they get is, to build a battlefury for X hero. It's just an option and it needs an explanation, with other items (that synergize with the hero's skills) included in the suggestions as well.
On January 03 2012 01:08 RQShatter wrote:
Battlefury is also great for solo pushing. Everything about it makes it a great item for void and AM
Neither of them have a single AoE spell or summons or anything that would make them pushers. They are supposed to be hero killers.
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if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever
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United States47024 Posts
On January 03 2012 01:51 Qbek wrote:
if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever
I wouldn't get both.
MoM is aiming to go to fights midgame and clean up kills during the period of time where it's worthwhile to have. Battlefury is aiming to farm and build toward bigger stuff before going to fights. They have diverging goals, and are awkward to play together.
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On January 03 2012 01:51 Qbek wrote:
if I get both BF and MoM am I doing it wrong? I ussually go MoM(our party of friends plays rather agressively so it helps a lot) and proceed to get bfury into Bfly or BKB or whatever
MoM gives the best attack speed of all items, for Void it's very good unless you're rich and decide to make a Sata.
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On January 03 2012 01:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:04 Numy wrote:
I think BF doesn't really fit into the current Dota 1 metagame, dota 2 it might make a bit more sense but the pace at which guys push in Dota 1 it doesn't make much sense to go an item which excludes you from fights for a big chunk of the game while you losing all your towers. As 5-s stated, the DotA 1 "metagame" is pretty much irrelevant in the context of pubs. As far as high-level games are concerned, well, Chinese teams just prefer not to pick AM/Void recently than to try and shoehorn them into the faster-paced style that's becoming prevalent--Void more so than AM, as a faster Vanguard->Manta build at least works on AM.
Oh I see i thought we were discussing what might work in the metagame. I apologise for that.
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EPT
