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NBA and NFL teams regularly tank games. This punishment was completely ridiculous. Deserved a warning at most.
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On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports...
Because there are rules against it. There are no rules against it here. If anything, GOM need to say "We don't agree with this and we'll be enforcing rules against provable match throwing in future". Rather than just arbitrarily handing out a punishment for not breaking rules.
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Would it have been better if Nani would not have appeared to play and gave up that match straight?
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This is ridicoulus, NaNi played fair games at Providence and earned the Code S spot. How can they punish him for not playing seriously when nothing was on the line... ofc it was a serious tourney, but I can understand NaNis anger after being cheesed by Leenock and MMA and the loss against Polt when Nani should have been ahead. He said, that he understand, how people are angry about him and that he would 4gate if he could play the game once more...
much love and support to nani <3 ^_^
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GOM refusing to admit that they made the mistake of having useless games in their format.
Is it me or does GOM seem more and more like KeSPA each season?
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Oh wow, GOMTV taking it a page from David Stern's playbook!
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On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports...
Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. Until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine if someone has broken a "supposed" rule.
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On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports... Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism.
there is no strategy here. Throwing away games is against the rule
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OMG I love the second poll. Naniwa fans, so true.
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On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports... Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism.
What Naniwa did is like..
A Gold player playing whiteout a Bat.
A Tennis player playing whiteout a Bat.
A Skier starting with only 1 ski.
It was losing on purpose by utilising only 1 hand and chosing a strategy that won't win no matter what.
Naniwa did show up BUT HE DID NOT PLAY.
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Belgium15 Posts
another tought that came up ... would they ban nestea if he would have drone-rushed ? ...
i'll leave the answer to you.
what Naniwa did was offcourse not very smart tbh but as said multiple times, if you don't break actual rules there is little ground to punish a player. You could issue a warning to that said player but that is it.
Afterwards when the reactions are a bit to hot to handle apparently, still issue a punishment and insulting the player being an amateur money hunter just proves how amateurish GOM is.
speaking of money hunter ... the rest of the players is just there for the lulz ... right ... guessed not.
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On December 15 2011 00:43 JL_GG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 18:47 LittleAtari wrote:
this stupid. Don't make players play meaningless matches. It such a big culture difference. In the West, we expect and take into account the emotions of the players and expect our foreign players to be more emotional. In Korea, they're not used to these types of reactions from their native players.
This is really disappointing. so lets say for the NBA season if the top 8 playoff spots r already determined with like 10 games for each team is still left so just not play those and go straight to playoff? cuz they r "meaningless"?
You can't even make that comparison since the teams are always fighting for something, they are individually responsible to attract their fans. If they cannot the league will move the franchaise.
OT: I think GOM overreacted with several degrees since Naniwa had his reputation to begin with and it's probably even some "payback" for Nestea from Providence. I also really dislike their statements, why start a smear campaign to justify their actions? Feels unprofessional. Also just use code a/s group system, then there wont be any 0-3 vs 0-3 for the second last position with nothing at stake.
But the situation has been decided and I hope Naniwa can learn something from this. I agree that it was a meaningless game but just 4gate it then. Unfortunatly Naniwa needs to understand that this is a growing industry and he can not behave as he would at home playing ladder. No need to even put yourself in this position.
Hope you come back stronger Nani, Sweden fighting!
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I'm think this is pretty reasonable. First of all, he obviously threw the game. The arguments that he didn't are literally nonsensical. Whether or not it was meaningful is beyond the point; he knew the tournament format going in, and these kind of matches were almost assuredly going to happen. On top of that, the match was hyped by his team, a ton of fans were excited to see it, and he then just threw it.
Additionally, it's pretty clear he broke their rule listed at the top of this thread. Whether or not people think the rule should be there or not is one thing, but he obviously offended both his opponent and the audience (a lot of the international audience and even more of the Korean one) with his behaviour - broke the rule. Not sure why anyone is denying this.
I think the punishment is a reasonable one. He isn't banned for life, just one season. Anything besides a ban would have been a meaningless slap on the wrist, and he would have continued to just behave in a similar way. If this was BW he would be banned for life, so the overreaction of his fanboys on this one seems a bit extreme.
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On December 15 2011 00:57 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports... Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism. there is no strategy here. Throwing away games is against the rule
Keep covering your ears, everyone has pointed out there is no rule such as that. And there has never been any rule in any fucking sport in any place in this goddamn world that says "you must jump this high before you've tried enough". Arm chair fans/spectators are the worst.
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On December 15 2011 01:01 wangstra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:57 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports... Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism. there is no strategy here. Throwing away games is against the rule Keep covering your ears, everyone has pointed out there is no rule such as that. And there has never been any rule in any fucking sport in any place in this goddamn world that says "you must jump this high before you've tried enough". Arm chair fans/spectators are the worst.
There are such rules in other sports... Why do you think teams risk hurting their players in games that don't matter?
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On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing
The rule is quoted on the main page.
Seriously does anyone read threads anymore? There are like 5 threads about this and still everybody is posting while totally uninformed.
It is in the GOM rules to not offend the opponent or audience with your behaviour. It couldn't be more clear that Naniwa has done so.
As I stated in another thread (THAT'S JUST LIKE THIS ONE, AHHH) GOM markets itself as the best SC2 show in the world, with the best quality of games. You can not market yourself as such if your players are not committed to showing you their highest quality of games.
If you're unhappy Naniwa got his Code-S seed revoked, that I can accept. But to say GOM has crossed any line here is ridiculous. Note the Korean scene is almost unanimously against Naniwa on this, while the foreign scene has a split. Pretty clear their fan base shifts more so, at least slightly, towards the punishment side.
tl;dr Sanctity of GOM's production > Naniwa's interest in playing good games or not.
On December 15 2011 01:04 wangstra wrote:
Again lets assume that. SO FUCKING WHAT??? What rule says you have to play? Since when is any player obliged to play for you? For anything. They choose at every single moment to play. And because at one point they choose not to does not behold them to you.
I wonder if anywhere in his contract it mentions the quality of his play, or how he presents himself. Would be interesting to know.
Also, as stated above, there is a rule. While it's not directly about this, professional sports or even criminal law works on the concept of application of laws where one may not necessarily apply, or to amend old laws to new situations.
I have quoted the "law" above, this situation applies.
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On December 15 2011 00:56 VENDIZ wrote:
Oh wow, GOMTV taking it a page from David Stern's playbook!
A page from Oprah's playbook, I think.
"You get a Code S seed, you get a Code S seed, YOU GET A CODE S SEED! Didn't show up to MLG? That's okay, because you get a Code A Seed!
NaNi, CoCa, you get prizes, too! Look under your chairs... you get Life Lessons! Yes! Code S Revocations for everyone!"
Jolly Ol' Chae Chringle, giving away gifts to the nice boys and girls. Even the naughty ones, too! Christmas cheer for all!
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This punishment is completely over the top. Naniwa has earned that spot. I'm not saying what he did was right by any means, but GOM is setting a bad precedent here with this absurd punishment.
The rule they are using is just ambiguous nonsense too. What Naniwa did is no less offensive than most cheese we see time and again. It doesn't make it right, but it's far from offensive.
I won't be buying a GSL ticket this season if they stick with this ban.
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On December 15 2011 00:59 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement. In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports... Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism. What Naniwa did is like.. A Gold player playing whiteout a Bat. A Tennis player playing whiteout a Bat. A Skier starting with only 1 ski. It was losing on purpose by utilising only 1 hand and chosing a strategy that won't win no matter what. Naniwa did show up BUT HE DID NOT PLAY.
Again lets assume that. SO FUCKING WHAT??? What rule says you have to play? Since when is any player obliged to play for you? For anything. They choose at every single moment to play. And because at one point they choose not to does not behold them to you.
And he did play. He just didn't do what you expected. And that is what irks you folks. He didn't dance to your tune and you're pissed about it. Go take his place then and shut up.
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On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?
There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules. throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney? see it can go both ways Please quote me the rule. not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing
That's not even funny.
If Naniwa had thrown a game that allowed another player to progress in the tournament, then that would have been illegal and broken the rules of the tournament. That would have been match-fixing. However, the outcome of the Naniwa vs. Nestea match had no effect on the tournament whatsoever; they had both already lost and were out of the tournament. And Naniwa didn't feel like playing out an irrelevant match, because he only came to win the tournament, not came to have fun. Plenty of previous BW and SC2 tournaments don't even play out matches that don't affect who moves on, once the seeds are already decided, as it is.
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EPT
