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What happened in Korean stream just now. - Page 49

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layabout
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom2600 Posts
December 14 2011 16:09 GMT
#961
why do two of the poll actions force you to make an unfair generalisation against either naniwa's fanbase or "korean's"?
and don't rule's exist to prevent things like this from happening?
and is it bad i don't have a really strong opinion about who is right and who is wrong?
Be the Best You Can Be ! Play MAFIA II http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/ II Dragonsound Best Band
Littlemuff
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom301 Posts
December 14 2011 16:12 GMT
#962
At the end of the day Naniwas actions just looks bad on E-sports in general. If people are to take it seriously, you need 100% effort all the time rather than someone being a sore loser and not giving a shit. If someone not into esports saw a game like that, they would be less inclined to take it serious. So this all comes down to proffesional behaviour, Naniwas actions looked bad on SC2 and bad on Gom for broadcasting it. So this makes it completely acceptable for the ban which could have been a lot worse than it is.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2011 16:12 GMT
#963
You cannot punish a player when there was no written rule beforehand. Absurd.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 14 2011 16:13 GMT
#964
On December 15 2011 00:59 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 00:56 wangstra wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:50 Velr wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:48 wangstra wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:40 iky43210 wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:39 wangstra wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:38 iky43210 wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:36 wangstra wrote:
Seriously for those deriding Naniwa. Who the fuck are you? So what you paid a ticket, that makes Naniwa or any player your puppet? How does that somehow make them lose their agency. They have to put up a show for you because you put money down?? He threw a game. That's his damn decision. His to make, not a bunch of spectators. Are we going to institute now, you must make this many buildings before we call it a legit game?

There's now a rule, you have to play, you have to dance, you have to fight???? That's damn players domain. He doesn't have to do shit for anyone, as long as he's not breaking any rules.


throwing game is against the rule, and who are you to deride GOM decisions on THEIR tourney?

see it can go both ways


Please quote me the rule.


not going to waste time finding it, but you can't be serious thinking that throwing games would not be breaking rules. Its borderline match fixing


To be honest I don't even know if he threw the game. What people are saying is that his strat obviously wouldn't have worked which has been equated to him throwing the game. And if the rule describing what he did exists, then it should have been quoted as the reason for the ejection. Look I get it, its not the ideal or what we expect. But we don't somehow reduce players to automatons either. He's not obliged to play. In any sport at any moment, every player is choosing to play. Choosing to put in the effort. You may disagree with them but you don't eject them because of an arbritary level of engagement.



In plenty of professional sports you'll get financially fined if you lose on behalf or don't show up whiteout a dang good reason. Losing on purpose probably would be a lifetime ban in most sports...


Naniwa showed up and he played. He played and what he did net him a loss. Now his strat was weak and netted him a loss and some have chosen that to losing on purpose. And please stop, until you can point out to me someone who's been banned or ejected for not playing their heart out I don't want to hear it. Dissapointment in someone's effort is NOT a barometer to determine someone's professionalism.


What Naniwa did is like..

A Gold player playing whiteout a Bat.
A Tennis player playing whiteout a Bat.
A Skier starting with only 1 ski.

It was losing on purpose by utilising only 1 hand and chosing a strategy that won't win no matter what.


Naniwa did show up BUT HE DID NOT PLAY.


However, unlike those non-strategy based sports you cannot reveal something important in a match. Skiers? They just ski, Tennis and Gold? (did you mean Golf?) is the same way. NaNi 100% prepared something special and meta-game-y for NesTea should they meet. However since the match they met in had ZERO VALUE TO ANYTHING, yes that is right, ZERO VALUE, why would NaNi reveal his new strat and be forced to find a new way to beat NesTea?

While his behavior was culturally unfit, it shows how narrow minded and one-way the Koreans are. They aren't willing to admit that their format was stupid and poorly thought out, even though they are the "best e-sports show on the planet" MLG doesn't do silly amatuer tournament shit like that.

Also, a professional level tournament should be able to understand professional level strategy. Players have been throwing matches in Starcraft, and RTS in general since its competitive birth. The same goes for chess. You don't want to reveal something new that you have found within the metagame to the world until it can win you a prize pool. Claiming that this offends the fans, and has 'ruined eSports' or whatever the fuck is childish, and insulting. The fans should have been smart enough to realize that the last games for the Blizzard Cup groups meant NOTHING, how many tournaments can you think of that have completely useless games in them. GSL, and then scrubby amateur tournaments.

The fans should be smart enough to call GOM out for this kind of action, and to point out to them that its completely their fault that this situation arose. The reason they aren't is because in the past Koreans have just 4gated or 6pooled or proxy gated, etc. Strats that have very low win-rates at top level, but at least put a 'show' on. Personally these games are more offending to me as a fan because I feel like iIve been tricked. Ever watch a Protoss not micro his Stalkers in a 4gate? Or a Zerg just a-move his lings? That's because they are throwing the match, but trying to trick you into thinking they are actually trying.

NaNiwa threw that in GOMs face, and more power to him. So what if they remove his seed? He'll just win another MLG, Korean Daily, some intelligently designed tournament to get a seed back. This kind of punishment doesn't prove anything. Not letting someone compete is only going to drive them to compete more. Calling NaNiwa an "amateur prize money hunter" is pretty silly imo. He is someone who works harder than 98% of the Koreans, and beats 99% of them. I think that GOM is just pissed at NaNiwa for exposing the harsh truth about throwing matches, which is that it happens all the time. Players throw matches, however, a professional player knows what matches to throw. When the match you are in means nothing, and you are up against someone who requires a specific strategy to beat, if you had 1/4 of a brain you wouldn't use that strat and just throw the match.

Get off NaNi's ass, and tell GOM to stop being babies. They need to realize its their fault a player acted this way. If the format wasn't poorly designed, then this whole episode wouldn't have happened. The tournament is ALWAYS responsible for the actions of a player at their tournament, this carries over from all sports. The tournament should be appologizing not only to NesTea, NaNiwa, and the community, but should also be promising to not let this happen again.

Making NaNiwa into a scapegoat is just a way to distract from all the other thrown matches in GSL history.
Got that.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2011 16:14 GMT
#965
On December 14 2011 18:44 Manifesto7 wrote:
GOM TV, sinking to Naniwa's level. Sweet sweet drama.

Sums up my thoughts exactly. -_-

When will the rodeo end?
Reppin405
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9 Posts
December 14 2011 16:15 GMT
#966
yes i hate naniwa bye havea nice next year not in the gsl
livelifetothefullest.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 14 2011 16:15 GMT
#967
Furthermore, why are people so pissed off about a 0-3 vs 0-3 match that wasn't worth anything?

Neither of them were going to play anywhere close 100% anyways, don't you realize that?
Got that.
Eury
Profile Joined December 2008
Sweden1126 Posts
December 14 2011 16:18 GMT
#968
Talking about being unprofessional I really hope Chae apologize to Naniwa regarding his snide remarks live during GSL. What he said is not acceptable when you are the representative for your company.

Also I suggest Chae gets suspended for one season of GSL.
UBavarice
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden358 Posts
December 14 2011 16:19 GMT
#969
Naniwa behaved very unprofessionally in the wrong arena. If you do stuff like this in real sports (football for example) you can have players banned for X amount of time, so it's definitely not unheared of.

It's a reasonable response from GOM. Naniwa will learn from it (hopefully). Other players will also learn from it.
And I hope GOM has learned that they shouldn't force players to play meaningless matches after they just got knocked out.
The Creator of the Universe, LG-IM.NesTea | The Gracken, IdrA | The Spoon Terran, "Big Papa" EG.ThorZaIN --- Fighting!!
BlindSight754
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada156 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 16:21:09
December 14 2011 16:19 GMT
#970
I am never ever giving money to GOM again if this is true.

GOM should realize that they never explicitly told Naniwa he couldn't probe rush. Take some friggen responsibility for your own terrible tournament format.
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
December 14 2011 16:19 GMT
#971
I think Naniwa acted in a disrespectful manner to the culture (I'm guessing the outcome would have been different if he had done that in the states or in europe), but at the same time revoking someone's code s status is kind of an extreme punishment. Curious to see how this will turn out? I'm guessing it'll have quite a backlash on some of the foreign viewership for GOM.
Write your own song!
djtopa
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom59 Posts
December 14 2011 16:20 GMT
#972
Honestly, can't he just sue GOM ? He didn't break any rule.

Besides throwing them out from GSL especially after this much drama is a horrible decision from buisness point of view. I'm sure he would have brought a lot of viewers. Interesting people are more fun to watch period.
Xiron
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1233 Posts
December 14 2011 16:21 GMT
#973
On December 15 2011 01:19 UBavarice wrote:
Naniwa behaved very unprofessionally in the wrong arena. If you do stuff like this in real sports (football for example) you can have players banned for X amount of time, so it's definitely not unheared of.

It's a reasonable response from GOM. Naniwa will learn from it (hopefully). Other players will also learn from it.
And I hope GOM has learned that they shouldn't force players to play meaningless matches after they just got knocked out.


Stop talking shit please. Have you ever seen a football player being banned for not running after the ball? No! Have you ever seen an ice hockey player being disqualified because he didnt hit the goal? No! It's complete nonsense you are talking. Yea. Now they have a rule. Use it for someone who actually breaks the rule. Naniwa did definetly and objectively not.
"The way of life can be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way. " - Charlie Chaplin
SoniC_eu
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark1008 Posts
December 14 2011 16:23 GMT
#974
I think this is a bit extreme to go to such lengths to punish naniwa, who has basically come to KR beacuse of the GSL. I really don't like that they say he thinks of money, when we all know naniwa only plays to win and that's all. :O I'm surprised that they didnt just warn him(where does it say that if u probe rush in blizz cup, u are disqualified from GSL code s?). I think this was too harsh, and that GSL will lose some viewers becuase of this. :O
In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure. http://da.twitch.tv/sonic_eu
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 16:24:50
December 14 2011 16:23 GMT
#975
On December 15 2011 01:19 UBavarice wrote:
Naniwa behaved very unprofessionally in the wrong arena. If you do stuff like this in real sports (football for example) you can have players banned for X amount of time, so it's definitely not unheared of.

It's a reasonable response from GOM. Naniwa will learn from it (hopefully). Other players will also learn from it.
And I hope GOM has learned that they shouldn't force players to play meaningless matches after they just got knocked out.


No it isn't especially when there were no rules about it prior. They are using Johan as a scapegoat.

Only time players get punished is when it's ingrained in the rules and it wasn't even then fines and suspension are rare. You cannot change the rules on the fly.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 14 2011 16:24 GMT
#976
On December 15 2011 01:19 mastergriggy wrote:
I think Naniwa acted in a disrespectful manner to the culture (I'm guessing the outcome would have been different if he had done that in the states or in europe), but at the same time revoking someone's code s status is kind of an extreme punishment. Curious to see how this will turn out? I'm guessing it'll have quite a backlash on some of the foreign viewership for GOM.


In the States or Europe, this match wouldn't have existed since it was a waste of time to start with.

The match people are so pissed about meant nothing to anyone anywhere as far as results. This means NesTea wasn't going to play anywhere near 100% of his game either. NaNiwa knew this and just said, fuck this stupid shit and left.
Got that.
bobohobo
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada69 Posts
December 14 2011 16:24 GMT
#977
Good decision by GOM. Naniwa clearly broke a discretionary rule. Discretionary rules are neither arbitrary or made up on the spot. The rule has always existed. It's common for any tournament and organization to have discretionary rules in place for situations like this. What Naniwa did was more than offensive in Korean culture, not to mention a lot of fans are offended too. It's not the first time Naniwa received repercussion for his behaviour. It's no surprised that GOM ruled against Naniwa. People need to stop blowing it out of proportion, he was not banned. Sen and idra got their code s spots from sponsor seeds. It's two totally separate things. I will show my support for GOM and GSL by purchasing a season ticket.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2011 16:26 GMT
#978
On December 15 2011 01:24 bobohobo wrote:
Good decision by GOM. Naniwa clearly broke a discretionary rule. Discretionary rules are neither arbitrary or made up on the spot. The rule has always existed. It's common for any tournament and organization to have discretionary rules in place for situations like this. What Naniwa did was more than offensive in Korean culture, not to mention a lot of fans are offended too. It's not the first time Naniwa received repercussion for his behaviour. It's no surprised that GOM ruled against Naniwa. People need to stop blowing it out of proportion, he was not banned. Sen and idra got their code s spots from sponsor seeds. It's two totally separate things. I will show my support for GOM and GSL by purchasing a season ticket.


What GOM did was blow it out of proportion and this discretionary rule you speak of is hogwash. The Koreans feel their culture is threatened and took it to the extreme.

Frigging ridiculous.
Hydrox911
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom261 Posts
December 14 2011 16:30 GMT
#979
Disgraceful decision by gomtv and will lose allot of respect for them as an organisation for this.
No, Your Quote.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 14 2011 16:31 GMT
#980
On December 15 2011 01:26 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 01:24 bobohobo wrote:
Good decision by GOM. Naniwa clearly broke a discretionary rule. Discretionary rules are neither arbitrary or made up on the spot. The rule has always existed. It's common for any tournament and organization to have discretionary rules in place for situations like this. What Naniwa did was more than offensive in Korean culture, not to mention a lot of fans are offended too. It's not the first time Naniwa received repercussion for his behaviour. It's no surprised that GOM ruled against Naniwa. People need to stop blowing it out of proportion, he was not banned. Sen and idra got their code s spots from sponsor seeds. It's two totally separate things. I will show my support for GOM and GSL by purchasing a season ticket.


What GOM did was blow it out of proportion and this discretionary rule you speak of is hogwash. The Koreans feel their culture is threatened and took it to the extreme.

Frigging ridiculous.


The rule in question is to "not offend opponent" or whatever, but do you think NesTea was offended? No. He knew that the format was bad, the match worthless, and was just going to go through the 7 minute motions until it was over.

Was the audience offended? Maybe only an audience that doesn't actually understand RTS or strategy. Anyone with half a brain can see that he was hiding a new anti-NesTea build for a match that is actually important. Koreans do this ALL THE TIME, but they are just better at hiding it. NaNiwa now knows to hide this kind of stuff and I'm willing to be we won't see this again.

To revoke someone's offered seed for something like this is ridiculous and shows that the tournament isn't professionally minded and is just trying to get ratings. A truly professional tournament wouldn't have useless matches in it's format.
Got that.
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