EPTWhat is the Most Elite Special Forces Unit? - Page 17
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6) Most famous ones Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces) Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm. For the record, there is actually a division higher than the JTF2. I guess that's why we call them famous O; | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:30 Jotoco wrote: Read what you want from Human Rights or whatever, BOPE does kick ass and do their jobs. All these guys want to do is defend criminals and get some money in return. NEVER seen Human Rights try and help the VICTIM, only the criminal. Don't believe everything you read or hear, I actually LIVE HERE. WTF bro, they DEFEND criminals? I don't understand how you are on their side. | ||
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Adaptation
Canada427 Posts
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6) Most famous ones Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces) Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm. SEALS are not marines they are navy lol. | ||
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Zooper31
United States5710 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
However, it really would come down to where do these fighters meet and under what circumstances. Not just understanding the terrain, but other environmental factors. For example if you are going to send a team into a city with the express purpose of taking out a known terrorist, that is not the same as performing an urban assassination of a politician, and neither of those is remotely similar to performing a jungle rescue mission. I would rate us as number one on the grounds that if you pick a completely random mission out of a hat, I think on average over many missions we would ultimately score the highest. On specific types of missions we would of course lose many of them. Just as an example, I think the Israeli commandos have a much better proven track record against terrorist targets than we do. | ||
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adun12345
United States198 Posts
On November 27 2011 17:14 Mjolnir wrote: In my mind I tossed around such titles as Marine Force Recon, Delta Force, SAS, Spetsnaz, IDF/Sayeret, SEALS, etc. but I'll be honest, I pretty much have no idea what they do specifically, or what would separate one from the other. I am not really interested in having this turn into a pissing contest or anything negative where people deride another nations army. I am mostly looking for insight into what popular opinion is, and maybe learn some things I didn't know. I'm sure this will be of interest to others out there too. Special operations forces (SOF) perform a variety of missions, many of which don't actually involve killing people or blowing stuff up. Different types of SOF are organized and trained to carry out different types of missions. Because of this specialization, the question of "most elite" is somewhat of a misnomer - although some rough hierarchies exist in terms of "elite-ness," different SOF are really organized to accomplish different missions. I hope the OP was serious about learning a bit more about the various roles played by various special forces, because this has ended up being a pretty long post. I am most familiar with the SOF of the United States, so I will draw on them primarily for examples, but many different countries' SOF have similar specialties. To start, there is the broadest-possible organization - the group responsible for all SOF training and activities. In the United States military, this organization is known as the Special Operations COMmand, or SOCOM. Broadly-speaking, SOCOM is responsible for the training, equipping, and deploying American SOF from all branches of the military (excluding the Coast Guard, which has its own special operations organization but collaborates with SOCOM for training purposes). SOCOM is the equivalent of the Russian "Spetznaz" or the British "United Kingdom Special Forces" (UKSF) - a broad organization containing many different operational elements capable of carrying out a wide variety of tasks. In terms of the variety and depth of its operational capabilities, SOCOM is probably the most powerful and effective special operations force in the world. You can read all about SOCOM and its various components and capabilities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command Within SOCOM, a variety of different units are maintained to carry out different missions. Although the specialized units tend to be smaller and more selective, they aren't so much "better" as "more specialized." The largest and most general of these units (and the basis for most of the US military's SOF) is the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 75th is organized into three battalions, each with approximately 1,000 soldiers. Rangers serve as a sort of premier light infantry force organized primarily for rapid-response and deployment via air. They are usually deployed in situations that require a larger number of elite soldiers - thus, Rangers are often the "tip of the spear" in a major US military operation, seizing forward airfields and operating locations to disrupt enemy operations and allow follow-on forces access. Their mobility and lethality has also found them roles in a wide variety of unconventional conflicts, from hunting Mohammed Aideed in Mogadishu to fighting "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia." Ranger skills (physical excellence, small arms, small-unit tactics, airborne training) serve as the basis for most of the US military's more specialized SOF (in fact, most US special operators will have attended Ranger School in some form at some point during their careers). The Marine Corps has an equivalent unit - the Marine Special Operations Regiment (MSOR) - that is similar in scale and mission profile to the Rangers. Beyond the Rangers and the MSOR, the US military also maintains a wide variety of much more specialized SOF, each with their own focus. Although these units are still able to kick ass with the best of them, their specialties often tend towards non-kinetic missions. For example, the Marine Corps "Force Recon" units train primarily for unconventional warfare and intelligence gathering, especially in support of amphibious operations. The US Navy's Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) teams focus on special operations in the littoral environment, including underwater demolitions, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, security maritime targets (ships, oil rigs, port facilities) and small boats operations, though also with a healthy focus on direct-action missions (i.e., killing people and blowing shit up). The US Army's 160th Special Operations regiment operates SOCOM's helicopters, while the Air Force maintains a variety of Special Operations Wings to operate SOCOM's various aircraft, including the MC-130 infiltration aircraft and AC-130 gunship. The US Army also maintains psyops, civil affairs, and sustainment units to help shape opinions and provide support to civilians caught in the combat zone. Perhaps the most diverse SOF in their skills are the United States Army Special Forces, or "Green Berets." Green Berets are selected not only for their physical, technical, and tactical excellence, but also for their reasoning ability and language skills. Green Berets are trained in direct action, unconventional warfare, and intelligence gathering operations like other SOF, but also have a focus on collaboration with local allies to enhance US security. Green Berets are assigned a regional specialty and focus on learning the languages, cultures, and customs of their regional specialty. Thus, Green Berets are often utilized in training foreign militaries (whenever you read about the US sending military trainers to another country, it's probably the Green Berets), partnering with foreign security agencies to hunt criminals and terrorists, engaging in counter-insurgency missions to weed out insurgents from the local population, supporting pro-US sub-state groups against hostile regimes, and generally trying to improve cooperation between the US military and other parties (generally referred to as "white" special missions, to distinguish them from "black" ops like unconventional warfare and direct action). The wide skillset of the Green Berets provides the US military with an unparalleled tool for collaboration and subversion, as necessary. In this regard, they are the US military's premier "white" operations SOF. SOCOM's various specialized units provide any number of services, from collaboration with allies to littoral warfare to airborne covert infiltration and extraction to providing aid to refugees in wartime. For its most challenging "black" operations, however, SOCOM also has the "Joint Special Operations Command," or JSOC. JSOC is composed of a small cadre of SOF deemed "Tier 1" by the US military, responsible for the most sensitive and secretive covert operations, including direct action, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, and counter-terrorism. All of these units recruit from the best of the best of the various other SOF forces; they also have (imo) the coolest names. The publicly-known components of JSOC are Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (aka, "Delta Force"), the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "DEVGRU" or, more anachronistically, "Seal Team 6"), the Intelligence Support Activity (aka, "The Activity"), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (aka, "the WhiteRa;" all right, I made that one up). In terms of "elite-ness," these would probably be the premier units; however, their specialties tend to be in small, secretive "black" operations. For various legal reasons, the US government also maintains a series of units outside of SOCOM that might in other countries be considered to be SOF. The CIA's Special Activities Division engages in various SOF missions, including intelligence gathering, partnering with foreign agencies, and unconventional warfare, but is not officially part of the military (providing greater flexibility and deniability in sensitive situations). The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group includes Hostage Rescue Teams (HRTs) and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which emulate many special forces capabilities and practices but are employed primarily in domestic law-enforcement issues. Any number of similar organizations exist to provide specialized security needs for various US government functions. Thus, in terms of "elite-ness," I'd say that the US SOCOM's "Tier 1" JSOC units are probably the world's premier elite SOF - the elite of the elite. However, it's important to remember that various SOF provide various functions. In terms of the variety of capabilities, I think it's pretty clear that US SOCOM is by far the world's most "elite" special operations agency. | ||
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Pillage
United States804 Posts
On November 27 2011 17:46 Fighter wrote: Well, Spetsnaz beat the Navy Seals on The Ultimate Warrior. That show's like, totally legit and scientific. So that's that. I really hope that's sarcasm. I've seen many times on that show where some very questionable test methods have been incorporated. It's more just for the fun than anything, it really doesn't discuss the most important part of any special forces team, which is their training. | ||
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Okoko
United Kingdom18 Posts
He was quite a quiet guy, obviously never ever said anything about his service, and never boasted about his training or anything. The most he said about it afterwards was "I took them to the police station". They never got his wallet. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:19 gogogadgetflow wrote: SEALS are not marines they are navy lol. uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch). So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders. Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:59 Pillage wrote: I really hope that's sarcasm. I've seen many times on that show where some very questionable test methods have been incorporated. It's more just for the fun than anything, it really doesn't discuss the most important part of any special forces team, which is their training. key word in special forces is special as in they are trained to do a limited role, but it's a difficult and dangerous role but they are trained to do it exceptionally, most in the US are named so as the operate as the "tip of the spear". The thread is more about what do you think is cool as technically the most "elite" special forces would be the one that turns away the most people with only holding a small pool of people in total but, i digress. I've always been partial to the Seebees of the US Navy although they aren't exactly what people would call elite force and i mostly think about WWII seebees. In general i'm partial to all that fall into similar roles from USAF red horse to USMC combat engineers | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:51 adun12345 wrote: Special operations forces (SOF) perform a variety of missions, many of which don't actually involve killing people or blowing stuff up. Different types of SOF are organized and trained to carry out different types of missions. Because of this specialization, the question of "most elite" is somewhat of a misnomer - although some rough hierarchies exist in terms of "elite-ness," different SOF are really organized to accomplish different missions. I hope the OP was serious about learning a bit more about the various roles played by various special forces, because this has ended up being a pretty long post. I am most familiar with the SOF of the United States, so I will draw on them primarily for examples, but many different countries' SOF have similar specialties. To start, there is the broadest-possible organization - the group responsible for all SOF training and activities. In the United States military, this organization is known as the Special Operations COMmand, or SOCOM. Broadly-speaking, SOCOM is responsible for the training, equipping, and deploying American SOF from all branches of the military (excluding the Coast Guard, which has its own special operations organization but collaborates with SOCOM for training purposes). SOCOM is the equivalent of the Russian "Spetznaz" or the British "United Kingdom Special Forces" (UKSF) - a broad organization containing many different operational elements capable of carrying out a wide variety of tasks. In terms of the variety and depth of its operational capabilities, SOCOM is probably the most powerful and effective special operations force in the world. You can read all about SOCOM and its various components and capabilities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command Within SOCOM, a variety of different units are maintained to carry out different missions. Although the specialized units tend to be smaller and more selective, they aren't so much "better" as "more specialized." The largest and most general of these units (and the basis for most of the US military's SOF) is the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 75th is organized into three battalions, each with approximately 1,000 soldiers. Rangers serve as a sort of premier light infantry force organized primarily for rapid-response and deployment via air. They are usually deployed in situations that require a larger number of elite soldiers - thus, Rangers are often the "tip of the spear" in a major US military operation, seizing forward airfields and operating locations to disrupt enemy operations and allow follow-on forces access. Their mobility and lethality has also found them roles in a wide variety of unconventional conflicts, from hunting Mohammed Aideed in Mogadishu to fighting "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia." Ranger skills (physical excellence, small arms, small-unit tactics, airborne training) serve as the basis for most of the US military's more specialized SOF (in fact, most US special operators will have attended Ranger School in some form at some point during their careers). The Marine Corps has an equivalent unit - the Marine Special Operations Regiment (MSOR) - that is similar in scale and mission profile to the Rangers. Beyond the Rangers and the MSOR, the US military also maintains a wide variety of much more specialized SOF, each with their own focus. Although these units are still able to kick ass with the best of them, their specialties often tend towards non-kinetic missions. For example, the Marine Corps "Force Recon" units train primarily for unconventional warfare and intelligence gathering, especially in support of amphibious operations. The US Navy's Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) teams focus on special operations in the littoral environment, including underwater demolitions, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, security maritime targets (ships, oil rigs, port facilities) and small boats operations, though also with a healthy focus on direct-action missions (i.e., killing people and blowing shit up). The US Army's 160th Special Operations regiment operates SOCOM's helicopters, while the Air Force maintains a variety of Special Operations Wings to operate SOCOM's various aircraft, including the MC-130 infiltration aircraft and AC-130 gunship. The US Army also maintains psyops, civil affairs, and sustainment units to help shape opinions and provide support to civilians caught in the combat zone. Perhaps the most diverse SOF in their skills are the United States Army Special Forces, or "Green Berets." Green Berets are selected not only for their physical, technical, and tactical excellence, but also for their reasoning ability and language skills. Green Berets are trained in direct action, unconventional warfare, and intelligence gathering operations like other SOF, but also have a focus on collaboration with local allies to enhance US security. Green Berets are assigned a regional specialty and focus on learning the languages, cultures, and customs of their regional specialty. Thus, Green Berets are often utilized in training foreign militaries (whenever you read about the US sending military trainers to another country, it's probably the Green Berets), partnering with foreign security agencies to hunt criminals and terrorists, engaging in counter-insurgency missions to weed out insurgents from the local population, supporting pro-US sub-state groups against hostile regimes, and generally trying to improve cooperation between the US military and other parties (generally referred to as "white" special missions, to distinguish them from "black" ops like unconventional warfare and direct action). The wide skillset of the Green Berets provides the US military with an unparalleled tool for collaboration and subversion, as necessary. In this regard, they are the US military's premier "white" operations SOF. SOCOM's various specialized units provide any number of services, from collaboration with allies to littoral warfare to airborne covert infiltration and extraction to providing aid to refugees in wartime. For its most challenging "black" operations, however, SOCOM also has the "Joint Special Operations Command," or JSOC. JSOC is composed of a small cadre of SOF deemed "Tier 1" by the US military, responsible for the most sensitive and secretive covert operations, including direct action, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, and counter-terrorism. All of these units recruit from the best of the best of the various other SOF forces; they also have (imo) the coolest names. The publicly-known components of JSOC are Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (aka, "Delta Force"), the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "DEVGRU" or, more anachronistically, "Seal Team 6"), the Intelligence Support Activity (aka, "The Activity"), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (aka, "the WhiteRa;" all right, I made that one up). In terms of "elite-ness," these would probably be the premier units; however, their specialties tend to be in small, secretive "black" operations. For various legal reasons, the US government also maintains a series of units outside of SOCOM that might in other countries be considered to be SOF. The CIA's Special Activities Division engages in various SOF missions, including intelligence gathering, partnering with foreign agencies, and unconventional warfare, but is not officially part of the military (providing greater flexibility and deniability in sensitive situations). The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group includes Hostage Rescue Teams (HRTs) and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which emulate many special forces capabilities and practices but are employed primarily in domestic law-enforcement issues. Any number of similar organizations exist to provide specialized security needs for various US government functions. Thus, in terms of "elite-ness," I'd say that the US SOCOM's "Tier 1" JSOC units are probably the world's premier elite SOF - the elite of the elite. However, it's important to remember that various SOF provide various functions. In terms of the variety of capabilities, I think it's pretty clear that US SOCOM is by far the world's most "elite" special operations agency. I am indeed interested in learning more about this subject, and I've read every post here thus far. I appreciate your post, it was really informative and helped explain how everything "fits together." I appreciate everyone's input here. I've learned a heck of a lot of interesting things and realized that the role these soldiers play is a lot more than just "wrecking stuff." I'm glad I started the thread  | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
On November 29 2011 07:16 Darpa wrote: uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch). So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders. Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o I didn't know that and I have a lot of marine friends, lol. As a side note, there is a huge differance between Marines and the Army in terms of effeciency. If you look at major offensives, the casualties in the Marines are signifigantly lower than any other branch engaged in the same offensive. To take the cream of the crop of said group (Seal team 6 for instance) hints at how good they probably are. That being said, the advantage of home terran kind of cancels out a lot of the advantages the best special ops teams have. Spetnaz train in the cold of Russia and the Brazilian ops would have no chance fighting them under those circumstances (And vice versa). That being said, guided missiles work pretty much the same in every enviroment so my answer for best special ops team is whoever has the best pilots  | ||
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sjperera
Canada349 Posts
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On November 29 2011 07:27 McFeser wrote: I didn't know that and I have a lot of marine friends, lol. As a side note, there is a huge differance between Marines and the Army in terms of effeciency. If you look at major offensives, the casualties in the Marines are signifigantly lower than any other branch engaged in the same offensive. To take the cream of the crop of said group (Seal team 6 for instance) hints at how good they probably are. That being said, the advantage of home terran kind of cancels out a lot of the advantages the best special ops teams have. Spetnaz train in the cold of Russia and the Brazilian ops would have no chance fighting them under those circumstances (And vice versa). That being said, guided missiles work pretty much the same in every enviroment so my answer for best special ops team is whoever has the best pilots Really? I though that was comman knowledge (Marines being naval forces). Either way, I have to agree, any type of conflict would be purely circumstancial. If I had to venture a guess, I would probably say the SEAL teams were the best. Simply because they have the most resources, are the most funded and have the best technology. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
If we measure "elite" by skill and training, there's simply no contest. DEVGRU members are hand-picked from the best SEALs. As elite as SEALs are, the DEVGRU training course is so tough that many veteran SEALs cannot pass it (only between 12.5-60% of each class pass). Due to their intensive training, DEVGRU fires more rounds of ammo per year than the entire Marine Corps. The military spares no expense on their training, and gives DEVGRU operators their choice of the best military schools from any of the branches (USMC Scout Sniper School, USAF Parajumper School, etc.) They also recieve the very best and newest cutting-edge technology; the DEVGRU team that killed Bin Laden was armed with never-before-seen stealth helicopters and HK 416s. Essentially, DEVGRU are the special forces of the special forces, the best of the best of the most militarily advanced nation ever known to mankind. | ||
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
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Tur
Brazil263 Posts
They are never used in action, but BOPE fight agains drug dealers every day. But I'd say that the US Seals and others "first" world country have the upper hand due to the tecnology and resources avaible to them. PS: The SWAT used to train with GAT in Sao Paulo, Brazil. | ||
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Skullflower
United States3779 Posts
On November 29 2011 07:16 Darpa wrote: uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch). So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders. Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o Marines can't even enlist to be SEALS. You have to be in the Navy or Coast Guard. | ||
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