I enjoy the varied posts here in the General section of TL. I also appreciate the varied backgrounds that everyone brings to a discussion - there seems to be no subject that someone here isn't very knowledgeable of, which is always great for learning new things.
I was wondering lately what the most highly trained military special forces unit would be. I don't know a great deal about modern armies, I'm sure there are a tonne of unique teams I've heard nothing about so I figured I'd pose the question to TL.
What is the most elite special forces unit in the world?
In my mind I tossed around such titles as Marine Force Recon, Delta Force, SAS, Spetsnaz, IDF/Sayeret, SEALS, etc. but I'll be honest, I pretty much have no idea what they do specifically, or what would separate one from the other.
I am not really interested in having this turn into a pissing contest or anything negative where people deride another nations army. I am mostly looking for insight into what popular opinion is, and maybe learn some things I didn't know. I'm sure this will be of interest to others out there too.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I did a (brief) search and didn't find a similar topic but I'll apologize in advance if I didn't catch it and this has been done before.
EDIT 2: OK, apparently I did a search with a spelling error and there is a thread on this that is quite old (2004). Feel free to delete if it seems necessary.
Would be hard to judge I imagine just cause no one really knows the different secret technologies each one is backed up with. Like those helicopters used on the raid for Osama, I'm pretty sure they mentioned those things were one of a kind, and that people didn't even know they existed. It would be so amazing to have access to the most secret files in the FBI or CIA just to see the crazy shit that goes on...
On November 27 2011 17:34 travis wrote: I am no expert on this, but given that we are the U.S. of fuckin' A - I would have to guess Navy Sea;s/Pararescue Jumpers.
After doing some research maybe they are 2nd to the British SAS?
Also maybe there's special forces we don't know about O.O
yea,, there's def gotta be some sikk-ass-black-op shit we dun know about....if there isn't well then i lose all respect for america.
I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes.
A good show on this is Deadliest Warrior even though their simulations are all BS, you learn alot about sick special forces. I saw a North Korean special forces, they were pretty insane other than elite.
What unit killed Osama, they must of been really trained
Going off known information, the United States has a transport helicopter system that can penetrate the early warning and air defense systems of a nuclear-armed sovereign country whose mortal enemy is another nuclear-armed sovereign country, both of which are on a launch-on-warning footing.
On November 27 2011 17:46 Killrwombat wrote: Definitely seal team 6, CIA hit squad
said team is the team that took out osama bin laden. i dont know much about this stuff but this seems to be the elite squad at least as far as from USA goes.
Edit: Nevermind, guess they don't exist anymore, but those images are still awesome.
They dont? Then what are the Russian special forces now adays? For some reason i still think they exist. I watched an episode of that deadliest warrior show where they had an ex-spetznaz person on there and it showed some of the shit they got put through during training. It is intense. Those guys are insanely hardened.
Whats the source on them no longer existing O.o But for real, i would never want to go toe to toe with someone that has that training. They are trained to be immune to pain, crazy stuff.
I hear that in Singapore, people from special units do not have nametags nor know their team mates. Only a few are announced to the public while the rest are unknown to the public. I remember reading from somewhere that they have very very good food and all they do everyday is simulation after simulation in preparation for emergencies. In addition, they leave camp only once in a blue moon as they have to be on standby all the time.
However, I would say that I strongly believe that units more elite than the Special Forces whose capabilities are not revealed to the public. It is in the best interests of a country to keep it's capabilities hidden. It might not lie in the technology that they employ, but the high physical and intellectual calibre of the soldiers who are in Special Forces.
On November 27 2011 17:59 actionbastrd wrote: They dont? Then what are the Russian special forces now adays? For some reason i still think they exist. I watched an episode of that deadliest warrior show where they had an ex-spetznaz person on there and it showed some of the shit they got put through during training. It is intense. Those guys are insanely hardened.
Whats the source on them no longer existing O.o But for real, i would never want to go toe to toe with someone that has that training. They are trained to be immune to pain, crazy stuff.
On November 27 2011 17:59 actionbastrd wrote: They dont? Then what are the Russian special forces now adays? For some reason i still think they exist. I watched an episode of that deadliest warrior show where they had an ex-spetznaz person on there and it showed some of the shit they got put through during training. It is intense. Those guys are insanely hardened.
Whats the source on them no longer existing O.o But for real, i would never want to go toe to toe with someone that has that training. They are trained to be immune to pain, crazy stuff.
Spetznaz is actually just a blanket term for all russian special forces, so in a sense they still exist, but the spetznaz you're thinking of where the special forces of the USSR. After the USSR fell a large portion of the USSR army got disbanded including a bunch of Spetznaz units. There definatly still are spetznaz units around though AFAIK.
Different units have different specialties so it's really hard to pick just one. Israel has some sick Special Forces, I personally know an Army Ranger, an Marine Recon Sniper and an Army special ops medic and a navy SEAL, all of them are BAMFs and tell the best stories. Being from the USA and personally knowing these people makes me bias so I'm just gonna say the Marine Recon are the most badass units that I am aware of.
I think SEALs, SASs, France GIGN and German GSG9 arent famous for no reason although I'd give the edge SEAL and SAS. Their russian and israelian counterparts are most likely just as badass, but I assume the western countries have their hands on newer technology etc (just purely my assumption)
but like a few I agree that there must be some blackops organization nobody ( I mean really a few know about) that has to be superbadass, most likely american based but perhaps avengers style with the best people from all countries^^
Also when Osama was killed, the SEAL equipment for 1 man was shown and that was pretty sick how his equip was worth like 150k.
Yeah, Spetsnaz pretty much take this for their absolutely SICK training. Korean progaming houses have nothing on those guys.
Apart from that, I gotta give some love to the SAS; a friend of mine had to do a week's training with them in preparation for travelling to the Congo for a documentary and she reported that they're all absolutely insane.
You'd have to be more specific in your definition of elite badass. By definition, these units are "special" and there are only so many things a person actually has time to train for. In many ways, modern times have significantly changed the way these units operate with all of the different technologies from minisubs, gps, extremely accurate air support, etc. Mission parameters have also changed where sometimes it is much better to have special forces soldiers who are good enough linguists to communicate with many different local tribes who can perhaps run 3 miles in 21 minutes with a pack opposed to one who only kinda knows the language who can do the same in 18. Each area of operation has its own set of climates, terrain, dialects, population density, and level of industrial development - all of which require their own set of equipment and skillsets which all take significant time to train for.
If you're talking purely about general balls of steel combat and urban or rugged terrain survival scenarios, then it's reasonably safe to say specific units of British SAS, Army Green Berets, Delta Force, or Seals, specifically ones from the mid 60's through early 80's. I say those date ranges because that is when some of those guys deployed to the jungles of SE asia, the deserts of the Middle East, and the arctic colds of European regions. SOME OF THE SAME F'N GUYS DOING ALL OF THOSE. This was all with very little to no technological support where one might have to helo jump into hostile territory and skyhook out(think Batman in Hong Kong) or head out of a sub's torpedo tubes in pitch black arctic water with a full pack of neutrally bouyant gear and swim a few miles to shore JUST TO BEGIN THE MISSION. I do not doubt the bravery and fortitude of today's soldiers - it's just that technology has made a lot of the f'n crazy stuff a whole lot easier(which means they'll just be asked to do more).
The media has taught me that Israel has the most elite special forces in the world, though I can't say first hand. Guess it depends on your definition though, I don't think there is a way to prove whose country is best. I try not to mess with angry jews.
This is pretty impossible to judge especially with a vague term like 'elite'. Units like Delta, DEVGRU (formerly seal team 6) and SAS/SBS probably has the best funding, equipment & support, but in terms of training and actual abilities of the individuals it could be even across a number of different special forces in the world. Let's not forget that a lot of these forces frequently train & drill with each other, so there won't be too big of a gap between them. I guess if you're looking at the overall capability, the unit with the best equipment, intel, and support services will be at the top. So in that light the US (maybe UK/Israeli) special forces will have an edge? It's very tough to say though and there's a lot of conjecture there.
Oh and are you including the military arms of the intelligence services? If so SAD (CIA's special activities division) or Mossad or any other well-funded agencies will probably have the most capable field operators in the world.
Oh and I should mention that different units specialise & function in different areas, so you can't really tag them all as 'special forces' and compare them directly with each other. For example SEALs would perform better than Deltas on some objectives like underwater demolition and vice versa for operations like counter terrorism or hostage rescue. I should also mention that we actually know very little about these units (especially secretive ones like DEVGRU or Delta) except speculations & stories from former members. It's very hard to gauge what they're really capable of.
On November 27 2011 17:37 Diamond wrote: I don't know who is the most badass but the Russian Spetznaz for sure have the most gangster training.
In mother Russia,axe throws you.
omg this is fucking epic lol. if he landed on the thing he probably wouldnt be wounded though right? though probably a lot of scratches =O
Anyways that is epic, it's good to know (and cool to know) there are people doing epic things out there. After all, that's why they get super hard training right? xD
the australian SAS and the most specialized peace keeping force in the world, they pretty much come into lawless pacific counties and restore order. bias i know but in the area of peace keeping there is no1 finer
I have to give credit to the Marine Scout Snipers, doing their job has to be the most annoying and frustrating thing in the world. Scouting an area, ranging it, and then sitting around for hours on end without moving, then you have to deal with gravity, wind, distance, and moving targets when it's time to shoot. Let's not forget to mention their training too.
Something like this is hard to know. Honestly the less is know the more elite a special force is. There is so much going on we don't know about, goverments all have there secret Forces within Elite Special Forces. Just being a Seal or SAS is not enough.
I'd say BOPE or any team opperating in South America has the edge, for it's drug war = constant action for year after year. Then again the US has a sick amount of it's money invested in it's Defence, with the most modern technoligy it might have a lot more then we ever will know.
On November 27 2011 18:32 Ym1r wrote: I have to give credit to the Marine Scout Snipers, doing their job has to be the most annoying and frustrating thing in the world. Scouting an area, ranging it, and then sitting around for hours on end without moving, then you have to deal with gravity, wind, distance, and moving targets when it's time to shoot. Let's not forget to mention their training too.
Marine Scout Snipers will probably not be considered special forces (i think). Elite troops, but not spec ops.
Most special forces operators will be sniper trained too. The special thing about special forces is that they can do almost anything, without logistical support for long periods of time and usually deep behind enemy lines.
On November 27 2011 17:37 Diamond wrote: I don't know who is the most badass but the Russian Spetznaz for sure have the most gangster training.
In mother Russia,axe throws you.
omg this is fucking epic lol. if he landed on the thing he probably wouldnt be wounded though right? though probably a lot of scratches =O
Anyways that is epic, it's good to know (and cool to know) there are people doing epic things out there. After all, that's why they get super hard training right? xD
I think the wooden construct you talk about is in the background :D
On November 27 2011 18:32 Ym1r wrote: I have to give credit to the Marine Scout Snipers, doing their job has to be the most annoying and frustrating thing in the world. Scouting an area, ranging it, and then sitting around for hours on end without moving, then you have to deal with gravity, wind, distance, and moving targets when it's time to shoot. Let's not forget to mention their training too.
Marine Scout Snipers will probably not be considered special forces (i think). Elite troops, but not spec ops.
Most special forces operators will be sniper trained too. The special thing about special forces is that they can do almost anything, without logistical support for long periods of time and usually deep behind enemy lines.
Oh yeah good point, I forgot the thing was about Special Ops :S I totally skipped that part and just thought >best military unit
SAS, Seal Team 6, and Delta Force are usually the 'go-to' groups in these types of discussions.
But my personal opinion? Air Force Pararescue. They're the ones that go in to save the asses of the badasses. That means if Delta Force is getting messed up, Pararescue is going in.
The Deutsche Polizei is extremely hardcore. One look and you know you don't want to mess with these guys. Navy Seals and these North Koreans are probably good, too, but I don't think they could mess with our guys:
I'm not being biased or anything, I only have a few relatives that are seals. Those mother fuckers are insane good. I vote for them.
The Russian Spetsnaz win in mentality(In terms of the crazy factor) I think. Well after watching a couple of episodes of world's deadliest warrior, they seem pretty nuts, like emotionless and kill without hesitation nuts.
But, if you want elite. Sea Land and Air all around, Navy Seals win in training and most modern weaponry. I love their slogan: "Alone, I am lethal. As a team we dominate." No comparison.
in my oppinion the usa gotta have the best special forces since they pay most for their military but I dont think its the SEALS or any other group thats known to us but one that only very few people know of.
On November 27 2011 19:33 Fenrax wrote: The Deutsche Polizei is extremely hardcore. One look and you know you don't want to mess with these guys. Navy Seals and these North Koreans are probably good, too, but I don't think they could mess with our guys:
german KSK and french foreign legion. no need for propaganda, permanently on a mission, absolutely high tech... also the second gives you the only one and last chance to change your life if you messed up comletely and you still have to go through one of the thoughest selections... but in the end it is Section 9 of course :D
Most of the general public here in Canada isn't aware of it, but we have our own version of what most would call the "special forces". It's called JTF2. Joint Task Force 2. (No idea where the 2 comes from) I'm a Canadian forces member, and all I know is, it's damn near impossible to get into, and you never hear of much that they do.
Except from other special forces units around the world. U.S. Navy seals and special forces have worked side by side with them, and have said there's no other better trained unit they've worked with, including themselves.
Ask the taliban who they're most afraid of, and I bet they'll draw you a nice red maple leaf. A little quote from the JTF2 wiki:
"In 2004, an estimated 40 members of JTF2 serving with Task Force KBAR were awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by the U.S. government for service in Afghanistan. While serving with Task Force K-Bar, commander Rear Admiral Robert Harward stated that his JTF2 team was his first choice for any direct action missions, yet Harward had eight other countries' special forces units to choose from, even his own SEALs.[9] Very little is known on JTF2 operations in Afghanistan, but during a conference the former Chief of Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier, stated that JTF2 is in "high demand" and that they are considered to be "world class." He went on to say that the unit is providing direct support to the Afghanistan government and is targeting the Taliban leadership in southern Afghanistan. He stated that "trying to help neutralize those leaders is a key part of their role and that's what they will continue to do."
I really can't say if we are talking about overall quality, but if we limit the scope of discussion to skill in planning assassinations, I think the Israelis might be the best of all.
On the Discovery channel they had a competition between special forces of all USA along with Ranger and SWAT. It was Fysical, teamwork, shooting, etc all the good stuff. SWAT beated every team in nearly every single competition. It was really entertaining to watch, not sure what it's called anymore
On November 27 2011 20:04 ZorAptoR wrote: german KSK and french foreign legion. no need for propaganda, permanently on a mission, absolutely high tech... also the second gives you the only one and last chance to change your life if you messed up comletely and you still have to go through one of the thoughest selections... but in the end it is Section 9 of course :D
That might help with the fuck-let's-do-this-mentality, but the french foreign legion is a bit underfunded in todays days.
Well this is impossible to answer but my guess would be BOPE too. They go into enemy territory on a daily basis and it is probably harder from a psychological perspective too than for example military special forces who fight against a clear image of an enemy at the other end of the world. These guys go to their neighbours maybe 5 km from where they might live themselfs and don't know if a 12 year old kid is just trying to escape all this shit or is about to kill them.
What you guys don't realize is that most special forces have a specialty. When you ask a question so broad as "which one is most elite?" in what way do you mean? There are many different mission parameters that all require special forces.
And how do you define special forces? HRT are top tier doorkickers, but they are not good snake-eaters. SEALS can insert in any fashion, and master the ocean, but the dedicated airborne guys in the greens might be better. Are we only talking about boots on the ground or does the 160th count as well? Do they have to be military? because SAD/SOG are good too. So is BARTOC, TACLET / MSRT, and aforementioned HRT.
So when you ask the question.....it's really hard to answer because there are so many facets to special forces, so many different mission types that even depending on how you define the question there are probably 3-4 groups in america that could compete for it.....and this isn't even considering the rest of the world. JTF2 is very good, Aussie SAS is very good. There is a polish team that has a good rep, I forgot their name.
Then theres the usual suspects that everybody knows about.
On November 27 2011 18:16 AsnSensation wrote: I think SEALs, SASs, France GIGN and German GSG9 arent famous for no reason although I'd give the edge SEAL and SAS. Their russian and israelian counterparts are most likely just as badass, but I assume the western countries have their hands on newer technology etc (just purely my assumption)
but like a few I agree that there must be some blackops organization nobody ( I mean really a few know about) that has to be superbadass, most likely american based but perhaps avengers style with the best people from all countries^^
On November 27 2011 20:09 -Doji- wrote: The belgian army obviously! As it is pretty much invisible to start with...
well played
Anyways, i love this special forces stuff. And in my opinion theres no such thing as THE best. It's conditianal. Scandinavians and russians special forces rock in artic warfare, ST6 trains with swedish SF to get the best artic training. Norways FSK trains with SAS and GIGN in counter terror scenarios and so on. But if I was forced to pick one dude to watch my side, I would go for this Gurkha. He fought off 30 talibans alone! He a one man F***ing army.
On November 27 2011 20:23 dogabutila wrote: There is a polish team that has a good rep, I forgot their name.
The only really good special forces we have are GROM, BOA and FORMOZA. Gotta be one of them (GROM is the most known worldwide).
And to answer the OP: Every elite force has (must have) very harsh training regime and some pretty hardcore requirements and selection/induction methods. Some have pretty narrow specialization while others are all-around. There was a good TV show about different special forces across the globe. It was hosted by ex-SAS guy who trained with the units and then went on a mission with them. I remember that first episode was about polish BOA and he went on a mission to raid some gangster's house with them (not far from where I live).
On November 27 2011 20:41 WaSa wrote: I don't think there is a terrible difference among all these special forces. But there is among the regular armies. The US marines are the best
And how many wars did exactly USMC take part in and won?
On November 27 2011 20:55 DKR wrote: From what I've heard and read about Special Forces the SAS/SBS are the best trained and the US Special forces are the best equipped
I don't think the difference in training is a huge deal. It's probably not that big of a difference between different special forces. The best special forces are probably the best equipped forces. We probably never know who are best equipped if it is a known special forces organization or if it is an organization which succeeds to keep their organization secret.
Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
Night Stalkers (US Military) are pretty sick. They train to fly helicopters at night super low to the ground to avoid radar. They were likely used as the transport group for Team 6 vs Osama.
Its a pretty pointless to compare the different elite special forces units of different nations since all of them have their members trained to probably peak human ability levels. In the end, the effectiveness of any unit is determined by logistics/information, etc. Might as well just say that they are all about even.
To give anyone the title the "best" is not possible as they probably have many specialties within the different forces around the world. For example the SEALS teams are bad at arctic enviroments having met a few in training they are much better in the warmer climate. SAS is reknowned for their jungle gerillia fighting skills. Scandinavians are the best in the world in arctic warfare. Gurkha are also a very well trained unit. The old Speznats (USSR) were probably the best when they were around, they started training at age 12, and where pushed extremely hard even by special forces training measures.
Also the US have a tendency to call a lot of their forces even though they are not recogniced by other special forces as "special", for example some of the SEAL teams.
But to give a small insight in the "best" in my opinion, whisch is slight bias and the nature of the forces i have not enough knowledge on all the forces around the world, in no perticular order:
- SAS and SBS, obviously - SEAL teams 1 5,6 10 and BUDS, known for a reason - Delta forces, also excellent soliders - Russian SpecOps, Still among the worlds best - Swedish and Norwegian Spec ops, little known worldwide but proved them selves as some of the world top forces in Operation Anaconda in Afghan - Gurkha - Israeli Spec ops, lots of combat experience and among the best in the world at what they do - JTF2
These are the ones that people know about the best teams are in secret forces not known to the public.
On November 27 2011 18:16 AsnSensation wrote: I think SEALs, SASs, France GIGN and German GSG9 arent famous for no reason although I'd give the edge SEAL and SAS. .
They're famous by me.... due to counter-strike!!!
Statistically i'd say Seals might have the edge because they have the largest population of soldiers to pick the very very best of. Though what i've heard about BOPE and Israeli shit is insanely scary too
On November 27 2011 21:25 Xirroh wrote: Night Stalkers (US Military) are pretty sick. They train to fly helicopters at night super low to the ground to avoid radar. They were likely used as the transport group for Team 6 vs Osama.
Well see, this is good. This thread is serving it's purpose. I've never even heard of BOPE before now.
Thanks for that
I cant remember the names of the films ... but thee are some *awesome* films about what they get up to. although with a buildup like that they will probably let you down. anyway i watched them randomly and really enjoyed them. but they probably wont change your life ;p
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
Nobody here is really qualified or educated enough to speak seriously about this topic, everyone can say their own SF are the best/most elite but nobody knows anything about it other than what they can read online, in my opinion the 'best' would be a combination of intelligent/well-trained. Not just 'most secretive' if that's a quality then...well yeah.
Tough comparison, as many have mentioned different units specialize in different aspects or warfare. Can't judge by track record as its mostly classified or unknown. Reputation is great but probably not very accurate.
So I'm not sure how to answer this, I personally have intimate knowledge of the different array of Israeli special forces units in the IDF and I can assure you they are highly capable and very experienced.
Edit: Oh by the way the Mossad is an Israeli intelligence agency equivalant to the CIA, it is not a special forces unit.
On November 27 2011 21:41 KryptoStorm wrote: Nobody here is really qualified or educated enough to speak seriously about this topic, everyone can say their own SF are the best/most elite but nobody knows anything about it other than what they can read online, in my opinion the 'best' would be a combination of intelligent/well-trained. Not just 'most secretive' if that's a quality then...well yeah.
You dont know that.
Some might actually have some insight having been in or currently being in forces or forces with connections with them.
Dont shut down every one else because you dont know anything other that what you read or have seen in movies..
From what I've heard every kind of special forces is really badass. However, the turkish special forces were declared to be the best many times. Keep in mind that their forces are in the strongest around the NATO.
On November 27 2011 21:32 TranceStorm wrote: Its a pretty pointless to compare the different elite special forces units of different nations since all of them have their members trained to probably peak human ability levels. In the end, the effectiveness of any unit is determined by logistics/information, etc. Might as well just say that they are all about even.
thats true. but you still can compare em in terms of training and equipment etc etc....
but funny story....i reallly hate amarican tv shows....but 1 got my attention i think its called " the deadliest warriors" or something like that. they compare warriors of the present and past (for example samurai vs. viking). the show is focused on weapons and armor etc etc followed by a "simulation" of those clashing. the show itself is just a stupid slaughterfest with no real science in it. its for bloodthirsty bored viewers.
1 of the episodes got my very special attention.... GSG9 (the german police elite unit) vs. SWAT (the US counterpart)
and it turned out the most biased propaganda recruiting video for SWAT. (seems swat needs new young member)
it was really a joke because they give SWAT unfair advantages (they had to do a swat parcour simulating a urban hostile situation where u have to clear rooms, shoot the boogies and dont shoot the civillians as fast as u can)
then the propaganda begun:
1. they didnt mention that swat uses since ages the german mp5 submachinegun (the best ever to be built). instead they got a new very handy but crappy US submachinegun. its very handy rapid firing but unprecise and not reliable. but ok it fits for this urban combat situation. what did gsg9 got? (btw they use also the mp5 for urban combat) they had to do it with the friggin G36 ASSAULT RIFLE (yes not even the short "k" version for commandos) its a friggin nice rifle but totally unhandy and not suited for urban combat in houses!!!!!!! it slows em down soooo much.(so why didnt get swat a shitty M16 then :D:D )
2. the pros they used for the parcour. SWAT had these 2 very exoirienced SWAT members, while the german GSG9 had 1 normal soldier who had done a gsg9 training (its a joke, its not even close tto a real gsg9 training and they dont train urban combat) and another non gsg9 military guy.....WHAT A FRIGGIN JOKE!!!!!!!!
and surprise surprise they beat gsg9 by 20 seconds....but if you look at the circumstances they should have won by at least 40 seconds. thats how bad swat is.....
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
GSG9 are good at what they do, counter terrorism and "Swat" like police operations
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
GSG9 are good
they rape everybody (not military)
I think the GSG9 is specialised on antiterror missions and so on while the KSK is there for warmissions.
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
GSG9 are good
they rape everybody (not military)
I think the GSG9 is specialised on antiterror missions and so on while the KSK is there for warmissions.
thats correct but KSK is also trained in everything GSG9 does, that means anti terror too that means they are even better. but they never participate in such competions where GSG9 wins vs everybody, because KSK is really a top secret unit, thats why they will never show up.
On November 27 2011 17:34 travis wrote: I am no expert on this, but given that we are the U.S. of fuckin' A - I would have to guess Navy Sea;s/Pararescue Jumpers.
After doing some research maybe they are 2nd to the British SAS?
Also maybe there's special forces we don't know about O.O
Pararescue or "PJ's" is undoubtedly probably the elite. So many current active duty US underestimate just what the Air-Force has and I've seen that first hand. I unfortunately had to be re-classed from PJ due to a injury I incurred during the training, tearing my ATFL and CFL ligaments in my right ankle completely. The training as a whole is 2 years aside from your general indoctrination training just to make it through to the pipeline.
As a PJ you go to the various different spec-ops schools for a set period of time. Those are:
US Army Airborne School - 3 weeks US Army Combat Divers School - 4 weeks US Navy Underwater Egress Training - 1 day US Air Force Basic Survival School - 2.5 weeks US Army Free-fall Parachutist School - 5 weeks Special Operations Combat Medic Course - 22 weeks Pararescue Recovery Specialist Course - 20 weeks
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
thats the most ridiculous thing. KSK is o ne of THE specops....ofc they play in the same league. KSK plays even in a league above compared to some other specops....u clearly have no idea what the KSK is
For those not familiar with BOPE, here is one episode from the book Elite da Tropa, regarding their training. This is in the start of the training, when they are trying to cull out the weak.
"The day they arrive, they are put on horseback. No saddle. And off they go on a 100km trip on mountainous terrain. And they are not allowed off the horse the entire time. By the time they get to the finish, some of the horses just kill over. Literally. The men are incredibly sore, and their thighs, ass, crotch, unmentionables, is all raw. All the skin is basically gone. Then they are presented with a large vault of industrial-strength detergent, and told to jump-in, ass first. The pain is unreal. Many faint. Those who don't, just get too badly infected to continue on with their training and must quit. And even the quitting ceremony is excessive. Before you can leave, you are required to dig your grave, then lay down in it, put up a plate with your name and date when you quit, and only then you're allowed to leave."
the 2 B.O.P.E movies tell how is their real day job.
I always heard that NZ's SAS is one of the most potent SAS branch, extremely respected by the other SAS branches. I don't know if it's true or not, and since I live in NZ it could just be our side of story.
Delta Force and Navy Seal's talk a lot of shit about each other. In the USA, it's all about bragging rights, like who blew some hodge in the head with a 50 cal to who took down Osama.
I don't have much knowledge or information about the other countries out the USA.
Back in highschool my PIG(participation in government) teacher told the class a story about his time in the Israeli Defense Forces. Due to the amount of terrorism he explained their methods of interrogation were always scrappy and at times, a bit unorthodox to say the least.
They were once trying to pry information from a terrorist, about planned bombings. Turns out a good way to do that is dangle them from their feet, out of a helicopter.
On November 27 2011 22:48 thirnaz wrote: I doubt the public people have no idea what special force is actually the most elite because theyve never been seen
Was thinking the same thing:D To be known to the public must mean theyve failed and/or operate sorta under the rules of society. A true elite stealth unit would only be known to a very select few people. Ahh delicious conspiricy theories:D
Of the known ones id have to go with Seal team 6, insane selection process (US has more possible condidates then most other teams). Also probobly much higher budget then other countries.
On November 27 2011 22:50 Junichi wrote: In all likelihood a unit whose name nobody knows and whose existence will never be known unless there's a really big fuck up.
On November 27 2011 22:47 Skilledblob wrote: country bias ftw. Seriously I see no point in this thread. Everbody will say their respective countries units.
i said british SAS, and im german! that means a lot if i favor the brits :D
From what I've read about special forces, the US would win most "special forces fights" simply because they have the most funding, and hence, the best equipment and training possible to have. It's not exactly realistic to say who is really "better", because most of them train with other countries special forces units, and learn from each other to a very large extent. So, really, it comes down to equipment, and the US wins hands down there, because we love throwing absurd amounts of money at our military.
A group noone is talking about is the US Delta Force though. They aren't very well known, but they are at least at Navy Seal quality, if not better.
Depends on the job they are doing. I think it's safe to say Navy SEALS are the best jack of all trades-esque Special Forces Unit out there. It really depends on what is needed to be done on who is the "best"
Not to mention, when it comes to these types of units -- a lot are so equally trained, it comes down to the individual.
On November 27 2011 17:53 Killrwombat wrote: Seal team 6 killed Osama, deadly prototype technology (stealth chopper) nuff' said.
Didnt the chopper get damaged or hit the wall on the landing?
one of them yes.
Also Osama was a 54 year old guy hiding in a house with only woman and a few body guards, any team could have taken him out. It's the Intel and work beforehand wich is way more impressive then pop a bullet in the head of an old man while jumping through a window.
On November 27 2011 19:33 Fenrax wrote: The Deutsche Polizei is extremely hardcore. One look and you know you don't want to mess with these guys. Navy Seals and these North Koreans are probably good, too, but I don't think they could mess with our guys:
On November 27 2011 22:50 Junichi wrote: In all likelihood a unit whose name nobody knows and whose existence will never be known unless there's a really big fuck up.
Yes.
There are some of those in each nation I believe. There are rumours of inside the brazilian army of a SF group that operates undercover in Amazonia rainforest and other borderlands, also before BOPE getting inside the favelas, the SF goes first and "open" it for the BOPE.
No one can confirm if it is true or not, no one ever will.
On November 27 2011 21:32 TranceStorm wrote: Its a pretty pointless to compare the different elite special forces units of different nations since all of them have their members trained to probably peak human ability levels. In the end, the effectiveness of any unit is determined by logistics/information, etc. Might as well just say that they are all about even.
Pretty much this. Impossible to compare them. I mean some forces are specialized in arctic conditions, some in deserts and others in naval/water related missions, others are allround.
But I feel that Selous Scouts should have a mention even if they dont exist anymore. They pulled some really badass missions and were pretty hardcore in their training/selection too.
Brazilia, Israel, and Russia has pretty sick special forces. I guess it's "easy" to say SAS or SEALs are the most elite force there is, so no wonder people think so. Might be true, might not be. Also read that middle-east/(south)Asia overall seem to have tough special forces.
Should be interesting to be part of SAS, SEAL, or any other special force to be honest. :p
SpecOps isnt all about equipement and funding. I mean I can support a unit with a massive amount of money but still if they buy some crappy (e.g. domestic produced) weapons it is totally wasted. Also, looking at the training methods...I bet every single one of them out there are developed over years and have each their good and maybe bad points, but still prepare perfectly for the unit's tasks. What I think is way more important is professional behaviour and attitude, not only by the person but also teached in the training and lived within the unit. And to be honest, I see a lot of SpecOps failing this part horrible.
Also you have to exclude the "elite" units like maybe the parachute troops from the real deal, like SAS, the KSK, the Seals or even the german "kampfschwimmer" (guess translating as combat divers should be fine). Those guys are far from being anywhere close to a "lower" level those elite guys operate on. I would even count the german "Fernspäher" (Recons) or recons in general more towards the SpecOps than the elite.
On November 27 2011 23:33 Eisregen wrote: SpecOps isnt all about equipement and funding. I mean I can support a unit with a massive amount of money but still if they buy some crappy (e.g. domestic produced) weapons it is totally wasted. Also, looking at the training methods...I bet every single one of them out there are developed over years and have each their good and maybe bad points, but still prepare perfectly for the unit's tasks. What I think is way more important is professional behaviour and attitude, not only by the person but also teached in the training and lived within the unit. And to be honest, I see a lot of SpecOps failing this part horrible.
Also you have to exclude the "elite" units like maybe the parachute troops from the real deal, like SAS, the KSK, the Seals or even the german "kampfschwimmer" (guess translating as combat divers should be fine). Those guys are far from being anywhere close to a "lower" level those elite guys operate on. I would even count the german "Fernspäher" (Recons) or recons in general more towards the SpecOps than the elite.
Recons troops in general are most definitely not spec ops. Their capabilities are often too limited for any special operations.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned Sayeret Matkal here. They're modelled after SAS, and even though they take part in 'standard' SF operations their primary role is reconnaisance and intelligence gathering. What is not widely known, the last part of the test to become a full member (that's after the training) is traditionally undertaken in hostile enemy territory, during a real mission. They just drop you behind enemy lines with a task and you've got to get back home on your own. The rumours say that roughly half of the people don't return from it (they're killed or captured, which is basically a death sentence too).
On November 27 2011 23:33 Eisregen wrote: SpecOps isnt all about equipement and funding. I mean I can support a unit with a massive amount of money but still if they buy some crappy (e.g. domestic produced) weapons it is totally wasted. Also, looking at the training methods...I bet every single one of them out there are developed over years and have each their good and maybe bad points, but still prepare perfectly for the unit's tasks. What I think is way more important is professional behaviour and attitude, not only by the person but also teached in the training and lived within the unit. And to be honest, I see a lot of SpecOps failing this part horrible.
Also you have to exclude the "elite" units like maybe the parachute troops from the real deal, like SAS, the KSK, the Seals or even the german "kampfschwimmer" (guess translating as combat divers should be fine). Those guys are far from being anywhere close to a "lower" level those elite guys operate on. I would even count the german "Fernspäher" (Recons) or recons in general more towards the SpecOps than the elite.
Recons troops in general are most definitely not spec ops. Their capabilities are often too limited for any special operations.
What makes SAS (and the others too I guess) so elite is that they basically never stop training. SAS has at least 2 units on rotation at all times, one is training the other one is on the battle alert status. This guys are ready to spring into action 24/7 and with the amount of training they do their performance is ridiculous compared even to police AT forces. Imagine that you run a marathon every day, do other training excercises like parachuting, close combat etc. regularly and you get to the point in shooting where no one in your unit scores below 97/100 at the range.
This guys are so badass that it never ceases to amaze me that some terrorists/criminals still revert to stuff like hostage taking, knowing that they'd have to deal with this kind of guys...
I'd give it a tie between Seals, Delta Force and SAS. They have probably the best equipment on top of massive $$$ coverage. But in fact, I don't think there are really big differences at all. Delta Force (iirc) enjoys courses from the german KSK in melee combat and vice versa.
1) Their recruitment pool is incredibly large. It only makes sense that when you have a million people to choose from, you have a better roster then when you have to choose from a 100.000 people.
2) They have the highest funding in the world.
3) They have the latest technology and they get it first hand before anyone even knows about it.
4) They see more action then any other unit. The US is present all across the globe and it has more operations running then any other country.
Just their over abundance of recruits, their constant in-field experience and masive funding secure them that top spot.
But in the end it's all just small differences. When you are running in the olympics, being 1st still means you are only 0.2 seconds faster then the other guy. I doubt the difference to the SAS for example is all that big.
Recons troops in general are most definitely not spec ops. Their capabilities are often too limited for any special operations.
Thats why I said more "towards" SpecOps then Elite, actually the recons in germany are grouped alongside with the KSK They do their job perfectly, in small numbers being behind enemy lines for several days, if needed those guys even can handle the jobs KSK normally handles, so their capabilities are in fact not that limited as you may think. In addition, when the german KSK was founded, recons were the first guys in there.
Small private story: When I was serving in ger. army those guys where training in the morning yelling and when I went to bed they were still out there training...fucking cost me tons of sleep :D
Though I cant say anything about foreign recons. May be different in the US, GB or elsewhere. Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol and Long Range Reconnaissance/Surveillance
On the "Joe Rogan Experience" podcast he does, he talked about a friend of his who was a marine, undergoing the training to be a Seal.
One of the activities they had setup to test you was a team of trainee's would be split up into pairs, one on land and the other person would be instructed to jump into a lake with no breathing apparatus wearing their field equipment/gear. They had it timed out so they knew when the people would begin to drown and at that point, the guys on land would have to jump in and rescue them... It's literally the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard, but Joe said his friend saw the demonstration and bottled it because he was so scared (don't blame him, what the fuck!?).
Its imposible to say. Do we f.e. know how much propaganda is in that what we saw and how much is a fact? What about top secret units used only for suicidal missions?
And what do we know about elite units in f.e. North Korea?
On November 28 2011 00:01 MasterKush wrote: Navy Seals & SAS.
On the "Joe Rogan Experience" podcast he does, he talked about a friend of his who was a marine, undergoing the training to be a Seal.
One of the activities they had setup to test you was a team of trainee's would be split up into pairs, one on land and the other person would be instructed to jump into a lake with no breathing apparatus wearing their field equipment/gear. They had it timed out so they knew when the people would begin to drown and at that point, the guys on land would have to jump in and rescue them... It's literally the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard, but Joe said his friend saw the demonstration and bottled it because he was so scared (don't blame him, what the fuck!?).
I know of some other "training tools" that are used as well.
Like running a 3 mile run with a gas mask on, that has puke in it, if its your own then you are considered lucky.
Also a diving exercise where you have to pick up an anchor from the bottom of the pool. Its too heavy for anyone too pickup to the surface. Its you go up for air you fail, if you pass out under water you fail but get another try just to fail again and pass out.
There are also a lot of beating and violence in training
It's hard to say, I think in different situations different teams would be the best.
For jungle warfare, definitely Gurkhas. Maybe not what I'd want in a hostage situation, but I think I would argue that they are the deadliest for their specific intended role.
On November 28 2011 00:11 hitthat wrote: Its imposible to say. Do we f.e. know how much propaganda is in that what we saw and how much is a fact? What about top secret units used only for suicidal missions?
Recons troops in general are most definitely not spec ops. Their capabilities are often too limited for any special operations.
Thats why I said more "towards" SpecOps then Elite, actually the recons in germany are grouped alongside with the KSK They do their job perfectly, in small numbers being behind enemy lines for several days, if needed those guys even can handle the jobs KSK normally handles, so their capabilities are in fact not that limited as you may think. In addition, when the german KSK was founded, recons were the first guys in there.
Small private story: When I was serving in ger. army those guys where training in the morning yelling and when I went to bed they were still out there training...fucking cost me tons of sleep :D
Though I cant say anything about foreign recons. May be different in the US, GB or elsewhere. Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol and Long Range Reconnaissance/Surveillance
LRRPs are a different story in my opinion. Their job scope alone makes them specops in my eyes lol.
But you're right, if you take all the "elite" troops, recons (and probably sniper teams) are usually the closest to spec ops in terms of capability (behind enemy lines, small numbers, limited logistical support and autonomous operations)
Based on how many special forces are based or influenced by the SAS, they would be up there. But BOPE and Shayetet 13 have plenty of live combat experience due to the constant state of war and civil issues of those countries. Cue the Spetznaz GRU jokes.
On November 28 2011 00:11 hitthat wrote: Its imposible to say. Do we f.e. know how much propaganda is in that what we saw and how much is a fact? What about top secret units used only for suicidal missions?
Ok, I said that it can be propaganda. But are you pretty sure that totalitarian army used to fight asimethric war will not try rise the hightly loyal, trained soldiers that can be in pair with western counterparts? (in everything but equipment?)
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
That's how it works in here. We don't have the time and the money to make a clean cut. We don't have enough qualified men and equipment to make a clean cut, so our forces need to instill fear. They need to make the drug lords KNOW that if one of our BOPE guys is killed shit will go down 100%.
I do not see why USA's forces would be #1 by default, as many seem to think. O_o Well, I mean first of all 99.99% of us won't really have a clue either way. I think most of us are just spurting out what we're being told by movies and video-games. XD All these stories about how bad-ass the training for Navy SEALs is, do we even have a good grasp of what the Spetsnaz go through? No, because they don't make Hollywood movies about it. :D
I have a book on my shelf called Elite Forces and it goes through them all.
I guess it's hard to bring it down to one force as the best around. The SAS, (and for arguements sake I also include SBS) is generally seen as the best, as per individual soldier, and American forces are shit hot with their tech and other forces of Europe are great in a 4 man group for specific missions.
But that's not to say any of these guys should be messed with.
I know the Canadian contingent of special forces is called the "JTF2" Joint Task Force though i'm not in any position to say which unit is the best. ****EDIT***** Guy above me posted exact same wiki link lol + Show Spoiler +
I'm going to say British SAS, end of story. They see so much action, they we're the first as both special forces unit and counter terrorist unit. They revolutionized the tactics used in these areas, their qualifications are very high and I don't have access to their mission logs obviously but I know they've done a ton of missions by watching alot of TV.
I would suggest the U.S Army Delta Force. They are the elite of the elite in the U.S Army. There are roughly only 1200 of these combat soldiers and they are known to work with the CIA and the U.S Security Council.
The most experience unit may be BOPE. And in Special Forces the technology although it helps, its not the top priority. intelligence and ability to preform a certain job is more important.
Edit: Nevermind, guess they don't exist anymore, but those images are still awesome.
They dont? Then what are the Russian special forces now adays? For some reason i still think they exist. I watched an episode of that deadliest warrior show where they had an ex-spetznaz person on there and it showed some of the shit they got put through during training. It is intense. Those guys are insanely hardened.
Whats the source on them no longer existing O.o But for real, i would never want to go toe to toe with someone that has that training. They are trained to be immune to pain, crazy stuff.
If your talking in the World I would have to say the Gurkas. Dudes train and live in the mountains where there isnt much oxygen the dudes can march and walk for MILES and still be ready to fight
Read a book a while back about special forces. It had done extensive research into several different SF from different countries, but I imagine it wasn't entirely objective considering the author used to be one. At any case, he considered British SaS to be nr 1, with FSK (Norway) in second mostly due to founding and small numbers. The Navy Seals weren't even on the list.
Spetznaz was pretty badass in their days, but they don't exist anymore.
Delta force, btw, is not special forces. They are a specially trained army unit. They work as an army, not as small numbered commando teams.
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
By "BOPE" and "brazil" you mean 9 completely independent elite units of nine different states. Brazil is a country that has 26 states and each state has its own elite police unit named differently. Also, the favelas they infiltrate are pretty much restricted to the city of Rio de Janeiro. Rio's BOPE was put in a spotlight because the "Tropa de Elite" movies. Like the movie portrays (and as someone mentioned above me) they are guilty of several Human Rights violations, so I wouldn't praise them too much. As their role in keeping drug cartels in check, in their "favela occupations" and "infiltrations", I am sadly sure it is just a superficial and theatrical way to hide a problem that has much more complex reasons and solutions.
On November 27 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
That's how it works in here. We don't have the time and the money to make a clean cut. We don't have enough qualified men and equipment to make a clean cut, so our forces need to instill fear. They need to make the drug lords KNOW that if one of our BOPE guys is killed shit will go down 100%.
So true, and BOPE is a small force. They only select a few that are remaining when training is finished. On top of that a lot of Civil Police in Brasil are corrupt because the pay is shit, and BOPE hates corrupt cops so that makes their pool smaller. Which brings me to another point, they aren't military, they are an extension of the Civil Police which don't get paid very well and lack funding. They have to instill fear in the Drug Dealers otherwise Brasil would b like Mexico. And we all know what happens when the Police in Mexico try to crack down on the Cartels, they die. So, these guys are true Policemen that really want to make Brasil a better place and will do what is needed to protect it. If they have to kill some scumbags in the process why the hell not? I mean the United States killed over 1,000 people so they can take Iraq's oil.
edit: got my facts wrong there, BOPE is military but groups like the GOA are Civil..
Shayetet 13 is very overlooked. They probably see the most missions and field warfare than any other force as of recent times...they're also trained in full martial arts. However, I'm pretty sure the British SAS is still the most trained and elite, they receive everything the SEALs do, with the extra counter-espionage training the Secret Service offers.
On November 27 2011 22:42 Sporadic44 wrote: Back in highschool my PIG(participation in government) teacher told the class a story about his time in the Israeli Defense Forces. Due to the amount of terrorism he explained their methods of interrogation were always scrappy and at times, a bit unorthodox to say the least.
They were once trying to pry information from a terrorist, about planned bombings. Turns out a good way to do that is dangle them from their feet, out of a helicopter.
I'd chalk that up as pure badassness
Dangling people from the feet from a helicopter is pure badassness.
On November 27 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
That's how it works in here. We don't have the time and the money to make a clean cut. We don't have enough qualified men and equipment to make a clean cut, so our forces need to instill fear. They need to make the drug lords KNOW that if one of our BOPE guys is killed shit will go down 100%.
Right. I'm sure if you lived in a favela, you would be thinking the same. Amnesty report shows interview of people who are more scared by this bunch of excited fascist psychopath idiots than by the narco themselves.
New rule for this thread: you're not allowed to state a special forces group that comes from your own country. It needs to be what you think is the best from another country (so much bias in this thread lol).
Edit: Nevermind, guess they don't exist anymore, but those images are still awesome.
They dont? Then what are the Russian special forces now adays? For some reason i still think they exist. I watched an episode of that deadliest warrior show where they had an ex-spetznaz person on there and it showed some of the shit they got put through during training. It is intense. Those guys are insanely hardened.
Whats the source on them no longer existing O.o But for real, i would never want to go toe to toe with someone that has that training. They are trained to be immune to pain, crazy stuff.
kgb obviously
You're aware of course that KGB is no more (it was disbanded in 1991 I believe)? Now there's FSB in it's place, but it doesn't have any kind of 'special force' per se. They're using Spetsnaz Alfa group for their actions and they're not very good. Part of what makes modern SF units so good is the tactics they employ. This is not an example of proper tactics for this kinds of units. There are more examples of course (Beslan school massacre), why the hell would you send your special forces to just brute force the problem?
SAS for sure, just search for Operation Nimrod. There is some amazing footage from the 80s, with incredibly 'proper' British accents to go alongside it.
I work with a lot of military guys. 1 colonel, a few sargents and some others. 1 of which has trained around the world with different special forces units, Israel commando, british sas and a lot of others he mentioned. They all agree that the navy seals are the best in the world. There training is ridiculous. He told me a story about some seals going into a terrorist camp and a 5 man team killed 50 of them without being seen and all got out alive. Same kinda guys who got osama I would assume.
On November 28 2011 00:11 hitthat wrote: Its imposible to say. Do we f.e. know how much propaganda is in that what we saw and how much is a fact? What about top secret units used only for suicidal missions?
Ok, I said that it can be propaganda. But are you pretty sure that totalitarian army used to fight asimethric war will not try rise the hightly loyal, trained soldiers that can be in pair with western counterparts? (in everything but equipment?)
I am not...
How would they possibly be equall to western soldiers?
Do you honestly think that the people writing and analyzing tons of war data, and got their jobs by being the best of their class, lose out to a bunch of NK brainwashed freaks that got to be "grand glorious eternal general of the eternal army of socialist glory" because his dad had the title before him?
There is more to war then being able to walk over glass...
It's the same reason those Spetnaz video's are fun but they show exactly why the fuck that training sucked balls. A soldier doesn't need to be able to have a concrete block broken on his stomach. He needs to be able to understand in the field tactics.
It doesn't really matter how many shovels they can take to the stomach when the other team flanks you and proceeds to slowly but surely bleed your team to death.
I can't believe anyone seriously buys into North-Korean propaganda.
This topic has popped up a few times. Anyway, it's all going to be biased opinions anyway. -.-
Didn't they do an episode on the various elite soldiers on that SpikeTV show? The ultimate warriors or some shit.
Forget who won it, but I think it was a tie between 2. ._.
On November 28 2011 01:16 IntoTheBush wrote: If none of you know who the BOPE are from Brazil I highly suggest you watch "Tropa De Elite." It's a softer story of the how the BOPE operates in Rio.
Love the BOPE; love their training program too. Those movies didn't really do justice to their regime though as you said.
As a person from the USA I'm inclined to lean towards Seal Team 6 because they use hand picked members from all the other Seal Teams. On the other hand, I have seen footage of how the Spetsnaz train and it is insane. I also like how they handle their business(see Moscow theater hostage crisis).
I'm from the USA and yes the SEALs are very, very good. However, the most elite unit is not the SEALs, but the Israeli paratroopers brigade. The paratroopers are most likely the highest and most strictly trained forces in the world. The BOPE may go into the favela's but the paratroopers literally drop from the sky into terrorist strongholds etc. They literally drop from the sky and the battle is over. The SEALs are good, but these guys are just a bit better. EDIT: changed my wording, sounded stupid
You put a platoon of any 2 of these units against each and they'll either wipe each other out or one will make the tiniest mistake and get steamrolled. All these special forces are pretty much equal in equipment and training.
On November 28 2011 02:13 Lumin wrote: 1. SAS 2. Navy Seals
No one else in the world comes close.
Are you kidding me?
Israeli Commandos by far destroys everyone here, not even close.
It's pointless to argue. Everyone is biased as fuck and since we don't know jack shit about other forces, it's easy to call out something that is more known.
On November 28 2011 02:13 Lumin wrote: 1. SAS 2. Navy Seals
No one else in the world comes close.
Are you kidding me?
Israeli Commandos by far destroys everyone here, not even close.
It's pointless to argue. Everyone is biased as fuck and since we don't know jack shit about other forces, it's easy to call out something that is more known.
The only thing I know about the commandos is that they have the highest motivation for any special forces in the world.
JTF2 From canada is one of the ultimate special force unit in the world
I know a couple of you pointed them out already but one veteran from that unit actualy wrote a book about it.
He been blackmailed into not publishing it ( he's also a pedo, apparently all of these people are marked for life afterward ).
It's in the french but the guy is an absolute bad ass. ( he singleandedly killed 27 terrorist during an ambush... He was the one who was behing ambushed).
tis book srsly relate absolute terrible war stories. it has incredible sociological/political/psychological value.
On November 28 2011 02:28 DeepElemBlues wrote: You put a platoon of any 2 of these units against each and they'll either wipe each other out or one will make the tiniest mistake and get steamrolled. All these special forces are pretty much equal in equipment and training.
They are not even trained or supposed to be put in front of each other.
The question is dumb. A good special force unit is a force unit that can carry delicate opp very cleanly, without collateral damages and losses. We know nothing about which one is the "best", whatever than means.
On November 28 2011 02:16 Stress wrote: On the other hand, I have seen footage of how the Spetsnaz train and it is insane. I also like how they handle their business(see Moscow theater hostage crisis).
How can you like that? This action was complete failure, just like the Beslan action and many more conducted by Spetsnaz.
Ive worked along side both JTF 2 and some smaller Navy Seals units.... Ive been in the canadian Infantry for over 8 years and from what I was told the craziest Forces as by training wise and work ethic was and will always be the Gurkas they are bad ass dudes
While i have no comment on who is most "elite" let me share this quote on how crazy the FSK training used to be.
"Testimony in court and in the media indicates that training previously included parachute landings on helicopter landing-pads related to oil platforms. The SAS considered such as suicide missions."
Too many people in this thread keep mentioning Mossad. I'll repeat myself, the Mossad is an intelligence agency somewhat like the CIA. They are not a special forces unit, they do not fall under the IDF, nor take orders from the chief of staff/military high command. The Mossad is a government agency with operatives similar to MI6 and CIA.
Israeli military special forces partially include: Sayeret matkal (Similar to SAS/Delta) Shayetet 13 (The Israeli navy seals) Shaldag (Air force special forces laser targeting and such) Unit 669 (Airbone rescue and evac unit)
There are quite a few more small units under different wings of the military and pretty much each division has its own "special operations unit" called Sayarot.
The cream of the crop in Israel is most likely considered to be YAMAM which is a anti terror police unit comprized of ex military special forces veterans. As you can imagine only the top of the military spec ops community actually become a YAMAM operative.
So yeah there's a big difference between a government agency like Mossad and the military spec ops units.
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
I'll quote myself, because 29 out of 30 posts here say: "Dat groop be so guhd" Without giving any good reasons why their pick should be under the best units. Oh and ofc the guys who shun everything and present their favourites as demigods. Come on guys I know you can do it better, I've seen some funny posts here already and posts with actual content, so I know that you can be better!
On November 28 2011 02:49 Lumin wrote: Israeli Commandos HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
So funny.
Always insightful...
I'd have to say the SAS, they had a show on TV that was an obstacle course and then they had some units from around the world compete under certain conditions. The SAS won, each season I believe.
honestly there isn't nescecerily one best each have their own perks: technology: clearly the americans take this with the various amount of research that goes into new weaponry etc discipline/endurance: israelies or russians, they are crazy can't think of any other categories atm.
In Eastern Gonghordistan the special forces have to sit naked on ant nests for 10 years! Those with the least amount of bites are chosens in the end. They are clearly the most elite special forces.
There is no doubt that Russian special forces go through the most grueling training regimen, but every operation they had so far has shown only one thing- that theyre good at killing people.
However every operation they had also shows that their tactical command is the worst in the world and probably loses out to tactical units of most police departments out there.
Take your pick from Mossad, Spetznaz, SAS, Seals/ Delta...
Personally I think SAS are the hardest because most of them are Scottish and Scottish people are nutters. But then again Mossad have epic H2H combat skills and tactics. Spetznaz are hardcore. Also I hear the French Foreign Legion is pretty badass.
I did my one year conscription in Norway at Forsvarets Spesialkommando (FSK), which is the elite anti-terror military branch in the Norwegian Army. Without going into detail, from what I saw and from what I experienced I got the impression that the guys who were 'spesialjegere' (elite operators) were extremely competent and confident in what they were doing. Of course, I have no way of comparing their capabilities to others though. If I were to say one group that is the most elite my vote would go to 1st SFOD-D, Delta Force.
I doubt what Russia currently has any Special Forces unit in modern interpretation. Almost all Spetznaz squads just are very trained soldiers with very narrow specialization which mostly include assault operations.
Ghosts, Dark Templars, Infestors are also very viable choices. But I would go with the Ghost, because he has a kick ass mask and can guide nuclear frickin bombs.
On November 28 2011 01:14 DIRESTRAIT wrote: In my opinion the scarriest units out there we probabl have never heard of just because they're so secret.
^^^ This 100%. There were/are probably tons of operations that were/are too politically sensitive for any country's own elite special forces to handle. So FOX and FOX-HOUND are my picks.
i used to think that the best would probably be some unknown elite group we've never heard of. But then, why wouldn't they be the ones to take out Osama bin Laden? Why would the US send their 2nd/3rd best team to go get the #1 wanted man in the world. Its worth noting though that the team six SEALs were aided by 'various CIA agents' according to sources. You might be able to say those various cia agents are your secret group and the seal team is just a 'brand name'. doubt it though
it boils down to different aspects of how you view elite. seals probably have the best equipment and teamwork. i do think there are some better trained or disciplined special forces out there though.
On November 28 2011 04:26 JiYan wrote: i used to think that the best would probably be some unknown elite group we've never heard of. But then, why wouldn't they be the ones to take out Osama bin Laden? Why would the US send their 2nd/3rd best team to go get the #1 wanted man in the world. Its worth noting though that the team six SEALs were aided by 'various CIA agents' according to sources. You might be able to say those various cia agents are your secret group and the seal team is just a 'brand name'. doubt it though
That the team exists isn't a secret, but what they do, who they are, where they train etc is secret to various degrees.
On November 27 2011 20:09 -Doji- wrote: The belgian army obviously! As it is pretty much invisible to start with...
well played
Anyways, i love this special forces stuff. And in my opinion theres no such thing as THE best. It's conditianal. Scandinavians and russians special forces rock in artic warfare, ST6 trains with swedish SF to get the best artic training. Norways FSK trains with SAS and GIGN in counter terror scenarios and so on. But if I was forced to pick one dude to watch my side, I would go for this Gurkha. He fought off 30 talibans alone! He a one man F***ing army.
Well, nobody probably know about norwegian spec ops, since they are pretty small and have no big hollywood movies :p
But they are good at what they do, MJK has had success in afghanistan FSK/HJK has seen quite a lot of action, too. Norway's been involved in most major conflict since the 80's.
But the commandoes during WW2 were pretty badass too, things like the NOR.I.C. 1 did lots of sabotage and shit, without any backup of any kind, and no radio contact. Only a few guys, primitive equipment and a mission. Balls of steel.
On November 28 2011 04:26 JiYan wrote: i used to think that the best would probably be some unknown elite group we've never heard of. But then, why wouldn't they be the ones to take out Osama bin Laden? Why would the US send their 2nd/3rd best team to go get the #1 wanted man in the world. Its worth noting though that the team six SEALs were aided by 'various CIA agents' according to sources. You might be able to say those various cia agents are your secret group and the seal team is just a 'brand name'. doubt it though
That the team exists isn't a secret, but what they do, who they are, where they train etc is secret to various degrees.
Seal Team 6 might not even be an actual unit, but instead just be a cover for the various special forces units that the US commands.
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
I think you guys should check out the SAS from Australia. Enough research and you'll find out it's quiet amazing what they have achieved with the odds stacked up against them.
For me, it's not about the training the recieve. No amount of "training" is really going to tell you what specific thing to do when your life is on the line. It will help of course, but yeah... check out the Australian SAS.
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
Um Russia has an 2,000,000 armed forces members including reserves. The US has about 3,000,000 including reserves.
Also Defense Spending by Country in Billions The US spends almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED
Pretty clear that if any country has a technological at advantage it is going to be the US.
Also the US has about twice the population of Russia. I hope you were joking, but somehow I think you were serious.
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
Um Russia has an 2,000,000 armed forces members including reserves. The US has about 3,000,000 including reserves.
Also Defense Spending by Country in Billions The US spends almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED
Pretty clear that if any country has a technological at advantage it is going to be the US.
Also the US has about twice the population of Russia. I hope you were joking, but somehow I think you were serious.
It's not like army size matters for technology anyway, you can have a small and very advanced army.
For urban missions I think it's BOPE, and on the countryside it's SAS. I'm not really sure how we're comparing though, as the SAS for instance is quite large. Are we comparing the top notch of each special forces, or some kind of average of the entire thing?
But the commandoes during WW2 were pretty badass too, things like the NOR.I.C. 1 did lots of sabotage and shit, without any backup of any kind, and no radio contact. Only a few guys, primitive equipment and a mission. Balls of steel.
I think Ive seen a movie about Max Manus.. cant remember the name,but was a really good movie nontheless Edit: the Movie title is Man of War(Max Manus)
it's hard to say nowadays because a lot of special operating forces do joint training exercises, so they end up teaching each other techniques etc. in terms of technology, US is definitely ahead (night vision contacts, r u srs?). it's hard to say which is the best of the U.S. though (delta, seal team 6, CIA SAD etc).
There are two books I have read that come to mind when talking about this topic. This first is Lone Survivor and the other is Bravo Two Zero. They are both great reads (and most likely somewhat exaggerated), however it shows the mentality and toughness of the SF's out there. Also, the first half of Lone Survivor is about the narrator's own story and how he trained to become a SEAL, and it also covers a bit of the training that SEALs go through (if I recall correctly he describes Hell Week and BUD/S). Bravo Two Zero describes an SAS mission gone wrong as well.
As I said, both are very interesting reads, and I highly recommend them!
Oh, and if it wasn't obvious enough, I would say SAS and SEALs are my choices, but there are many others that deserve to be mentioned, and have been mentioned already. Although I do want to bring up US Air Force's Parajumpers. Those men are amazing at what they do.
It's a group we don't even know about. Or if it is SEAL/SAS/etc then we really don't know the full scope or all of the details of these organizations. No government is going to be stupid enough to release their best spec. ops info to the public, that would just be stupid.
I would say it is likely the American Forces like Delta/SEALS or the SAS. Because,
1. Better technology than most other countries, this is a smaller advantage than we would like to think. and 2. Recent combat experience. Iraq, Afghanistan, and the IRA have served to keep these forces sharp. While the German KSK, and other first world special forces are well trained, nothing can stand up to the hundreds of hours of combat experience that our special forces have.
cLutZ, Spetsnaz GRU fought in Afghanistan, First and Second Chechen war and also participated in 2008 Russo-Georgian war so they definitely have as much of real combat experience.
On November 28 2011 12:45 1Eris1 wrote: It's a group we don't even know about. Or if it is SEAL/SAS/etc then we really don't know the full scope or all of the details of these organizations. No government is going to be stupid enough to release their best spec. ops info to the public, that would just be stupid.
this sums up my thoughts about present day. I'm thinking maybe ww2 era US marine corp engineers in the pacific for recent history.
no, srsly, I believe that Spetznatz takes the cake. Excerpts from a book written by a Spetznatz defector:
Let us not be too strict in our judgement of the spetsnaz soldiers for their cruel ways, their bloodthirstiness and their lack of humanity. Spetsnaz is a closed society of people living permanently at the extreme limits of human existence. They are people who even in peacetime are risking their lives. Their existence bears no relation at all to the way the majority of the inhabitants of our planet live. In spetsnaz a man can be admired for qualities of which the average man may have no idea.
Your average training exercise:
Now they come to a dark cellar, with the doors ripped off the hinges. Everybody down. Along the corridor. Then there's water ahead. The whole group running at full tilt without slowing down rushes straight into some sticky liquid. A blinding light flashes on. It's not water they are in -- it's blood. Blood up to the knees, the waist, the chest. On the walls and the ceiling are chunks of rotten flesh, piles of bleeding entrails. The steps are slippery from slimy bits of brain. Undecided, the young soldiers jam the corridor. Then somebody in the darkness lets a huge dog off its chain. There is only one way out -- through the blood. Only forwards, where there is a wide passageway and a staircase upwards.
Among just the US forces, the US Air Force Pararescue and Delta Force are above SEALs. SEALs just get more press.
I have to agree that in reality, the scariest grp of killers on the planet is almost certainly the CIA kill squad which takes the best from the different special ops grps. I'd put that first if only because of 1. funding and 2. the fact the CIA is fucking everywhere and involved in everything.
On November 28 2011 17:57 Robinsa wrote: I think that if you know the name of them, its not them.
Probably true. I wish I could mock you with a tinfoil hat joke, but it's seriously likely that there are multiple wet works groups from many powerful nations that we haven't heard of, and won't hear of til they're disbanded.
Let us not be too strict in our judgement of the spetsnaz soldiers for their cruel ways, their bloodthirstiness and their lack of humanity. Spetsnaz is a closed society of people living permanently at the extreme limits of human existence. They are people who even in peacetime are risking their lives. Their existence bears no relation at all to the way the majority of the inhabitants of our planet live. In spetsnaz a man can be admired for qualities of which the average man may have no idea.
Now they come to a dark cellar, with the doors ripped off the hinges. Everybody down. Along the corridor. Then there's water ahead. The whole group running at full tilt without slowing down rushes straight into some sticky liquid. A blinding light flashes on. It's not water they are in -- it's blood. Blood up to the knees, the waist, the chest. On the walls and the ceiling are chunks of rotten flesh, piles of bleeding entrails. The steps are slippery from slimy bits of brain. Undecided, the young soldiers jam the corridor. Then somebody in the darkness lets a huge dog off its chain. There is only one way out -- through the blood. Only forwards, where there is a wide passageway and a staircase upwards.
And wading through chest-deep pools of blood makes you better in combat situations? How exactly? Also, your first quote is true for other SF units too as they have plenty to do during times of peace. Checking out some actions that aren't classified that various SF units were involved in clearly shows that Spetsnaz is probably at the bottom of the pack.
I would say Its between the spetnaz/SAS. The SAS have a slight lead over the US special forces as all the tactics they use in Delta squad are from the SAS. The SAS are also the model for most of the special forces in the world and cross train with alot of them. Also the spetnaz are some of the most well trained men in the world. Then again im sure there are tons of special forces we dont know about.
Choosing the best special forces is an awful lot like choosing the best spies. If you've heard of them...
...well, maybe not that far, but it's probably close.
However, judging from GDP and defense spending, I'd say that the United States almost certainly has the best-equipped special forces in the world. Whether or not this technological advantage pushes them ahead or behind some other country's special forces is an open question.
If I was looking for the country that could produce the best soldiers, I'd look for a country with a reasonably large population that's in a state of total war for a decade or two or three or four, preferably with itself; there's pretty much no amount of training that can teach the real thing as effectively as the real thing. This country would probably be in Africa or something. Of course, best soldiers isn't best special forces. It's not like any African soldier could emulate the intelligence services or technology of a first world nation, both essential for special forces work.
On November 28 2011 17:46 Plague1503 wrote: Jack Bauer. /thread
no, srsly, I believe that Spetznatz takes the cake. Excerpts from a book written by a Spetznatz defector:
Let us not be too strict in our judgement of the spetsnaz soldiers for their cruel ways, their bloodthirstiness and their lack of humanity. Spetsnaz is a closed society of people living permanently at the extreme limits of human existence. They are people who even in peacetime are risking their lives. Their existence bears no relation at all to the way the majority of the inhabitants of our planet live. In spetsnaz a man can be admired for qualities of which the average man may have no idea.
Your average training exercise:
Now they come to a dark cellar, with the doors ripped off the hinges. Everybody down. Along the corridor. Then there's water ahead. The whole group running at full tilt without slowing down rushes straight into some sticky liquid. A blinding light flashes on. It's not water they are in -- it's blood. Blood up to the knees, the waist, the chest. On the walls and the ceiling are chunks of rotten flesh, piles of bleeding entrails. The steps are slippery from slimy bits of brain. Undecided, the young soldiers jam the corridor. Then somebody in the darkness lets a huge dog off its chain. There is only one way out -- through the blood. Only forwards, where there is a wide passageway and a staircase upwards.
And wading through chest-deep pools of blood makes you better in combat situations? How exactly? Also, your first quote is true for other SF units too as they have plenty to do during times of peace. Checking out some actions that aren't classified that various SF units were involved in clearly shows that Spetsnaz is probably at the bottom of the pack.
I've seen your posts around, you're definitely biased against Russia in general, not just their troops.
I can talk about the Beschlan school massacre and the theater holding of hostages. I agree that the Beschlan school massacre storm was an idiotic tactic and was a big fail no matter how you take it.... operatives killed, too many innocent deaths etc. You need to take into account it's not only their fault. No SF acts alone, they respond to demands, if the political power says storm, they'll make plan and storm no matter how idiotic it may seem to them.
However, i will disagree on the theater case being a failure. Their assault was a success. The fail came from using experimental gases which they haven't sufficiently tested and the dose was too much (killed dozens of innocents)... beside they didn't alert medical personnel about the gas that's been used so they could treat the victims.
It's impossible to say who's the best SF. There are dozens, each with it's own specific. Most SF's have been turned into real myths by popular culture. When we think of Spetsnaz for example we think of concrete tough russian no-brainers that all can do is flex muscles.
Some groups are more trained and used for urban combat situations, other for commando style actions on enemy territory, some for front breaking, some are intel sf etc. You can't expect urban guerilla specialized SF to do as good in jungle or mountains.
You can't put them face to face say fight and pick a winner, they are part of an integrated system.
“Ten years ago, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum-security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.”
I don't quite agree with the sentiment that a special forces team would be need to be kept secret. They're a great propaganda force to make enemies think twice about attacking, and give moral support to a population at war. Ofcourse identeties of the individuals and whatnot needs to be kept a secret, but the existance of the unit does not. For instance Mossad kidnapping people from all over the world to bring them to 'justice' in Israel is a fairly popular theme in movies, right? Everyone knows of BOPE, the SEALs, SAS etc. It's good publicity. When it comes to spies and whatnot, then it's a whole different story.
I think this discussion just goes in circles because no one defined what most elite means. The only way of meassurement mentioned in the op is "most trained".
What does most trained mean?
Also, is the most elite team the team that could beat the other teams or the one best fit for their job?
Aditionally, only because you have the craziest training doesn't mean you are the best team.
I think for any serious discussion everyone making a post would have to say how he defines "most elite team".
If you count humans and guns only, I'd probably go with the repeatedly quoted of "Some super secret agency/kill squad of a very powerful country's government that we'll probably never hear of unless they screw up big time."
Otherwise, a bunch of guys in a darkened room in a trailer, on a boat, or on a plane, controlling UAVs that shoot missiles and drop bombs out of the sky without warning that can be launched anywhere on earth at any time, whether to do surgical strikes or take out entire blocks at a time.
For everyone saying that BOPE has balls to get into the favelas and shit, don't get trolled by the news and a fancy movie.
What happens here in Brazil is the following: They warn everyone that they will get into the favelas and clean it up 1+ weeks beforehand The important people (traffic bosses and stuff) go away to hide somewhere else, leaving only the regular citizens and drug users there. They go up the hill with the support of the Army and Navy and a bunch of tanks against no resistance at all, collecting w/e they find.
Basically, it's the government advertising and trying to buy more votes, while keeping Brazil's good image out there.
There is absolutely NO RISK for the people involved in those operations.
BOPE is just a regular special force like any other with a cool movie to back its name, just like SWAT.
Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
A lot of info in this thread is completely wrong lol, it's really hard to say who has the most elite SF group there are so many countries with really badass ones. I'd guess the SEALs though
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
Um Russia has an 2,000,000 armed forces members including reserves. The US has about 3,000,000 including reserves.
Also Defense Spending by Country in Billions The US spends almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED
Pretty clear that if any country has a technological at advantage it is going to be the US.
They spend that much money on their military, and still the swedish submarine HMS Gotland humiliated the US Navy during their war games in 2006.
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
Um Russia has an 2,000,000 armed forces members including reserves. The US has about 3,000,000 including reserves.
Also Defense Spending by Country in Billions The US spends almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED
Pretty clear that if any country has a technological at advantage it is going to be the US.
They spend that much money on their military, and still the swedish submarine HMS Gotland humiliated the US Navy during their war games in 2006.
Sweden have crazy tech when it comes to war machines though On an infantry level though I dont think there's much disputing that America is leaps and bounds ahead of pretty much everyone.
As far as best trained or what was it "most elite"? special forces though, i dont see how you can go with anything other than the SAS :3
On November 29 2011 01:29 Hoon wrote: For everyone saying that BOPE has balls to get into the favelas and shit, don't get trolled by the news and a fancy movie.
What happens here in Brazil is the following: They warn everyone that they will get into the favelas and clean it up 1+ weeks beforehand The important people (traffic bosses and stuff) go away to hide somewhere else, leaving only the regular citizens and drug users there. They go up the hill with the support of the Army and Navy and a bunch of tanks against no resistance at all, collecting w/e they find.
Basically, it's the government advertising and trying to buy more votes, while keeping Brazil's good image out there.
There is absolutely NO RISK for the people involved in those operations.
BOPE is just a regular special force like any other with a cool movie to back its name, just like SWAT.
That's not the reason why I gave them phrase in my post man nor did I ever mention what happened in the favelas and the drug lords either. ._.
Like I said earlier, this whole discussion is completely bias and it will lead nowhere to begin with.
On November 28 2011 08:28 matiK23 wrote: Team EG
Nice attempt to troll, but better bait if we're talking about the Elite would be, KeSPA sanctioned BW Teams. ;O
"Every soldier taken into a training battalion is given a nickname, almost invariably sarcastic. He might be known as The Count, The Duke, Caesar, Alexander of Macedon, Louis XI, Ambassador, Minister of Foreign Affairs, or any variation on the theme. He is treated with exaggerated respect, not given orders, but asked for his opinion: `Would Your Excellency be of a mind to clean the toilet with his toothbrush?' `Illustrious Prince, would you care to throw up in public what you ate at lunch?' In spetsnaz units men are fed much better than in any other units of the armed forces, but the workload is so great that the men are permanently hungry, even if they do not suffer the unofficial but very common punishment of being forced to empty their stomachs: `You're on the heavy side, Count, after your lunch! Would you care to stick two fingers down your throat? That'll make things easier!'"
Seven troop is a great book detailing the SAS through 1970-1990 (approx). It covers a single soldier's story through everything from nepalese training to the falklands.
Thought this looked family, i created the same topic in 2004
The best will be the outfit with the most experience and resources. Hard to look past the UK or US special forces. Spetznaz sound like they would be pretty good at causing a diversion by running about hitting each other over the head with iron bars to show how tough they are.
this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä is pretty bad ass, not part of a team but a single man with a hunting rifle that killed 505 soviets trying to cross his land. and even had lots of confirmed kills after being shot in the jaw.
EDIT: soviets not nazi's
"It was during the Winter War (1939–1940), between Finland and the Soviet Union, that he began his duty as a sniper and fought for the Finnish Army against the Red Army. In temperatures between −40 and −20 degrees Celsius, dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers.[3][5] A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was conducted for the Finnish snipers. Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over 200 kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun.[5] Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days at a time of year with very short hours of daylight.[6][7][8] Häyhä used a Finnish militia variant, White Guard M/28 "Pystykorva" or "Spitz", of the Russian Mosin-Nagant rifle, because it suited his small frame (5 ft 3 in/1.60 m). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present a smaller target (the sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight), for more reliable visibility (a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather), and aid concealment (sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position). Another tactic used by Häyhä was to compact the snow in front of him so that the shot would not disturb the snow and reveal his position.[citation needed] He also kept snow in his mouth, so that the vapor of his breath would not give him away.[citation needed] The Soviets tried several ploys to get rid of him, including counter-snipers and artillery strikes. On March 6, 1940, Häyhä was shot in the lower left jaw by a Russian soldier during combat. The bullet tumbled upon impact and exited his head. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his head was missing", but he was not dead: he regained consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared. Shortly after the war Häyhä was promoted from alikersantti (corporal) to Second Lieutenant by Field Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim; no one else has gained rank so quickly in Finland's military history."
why did someone get warned for posting men in black as an answer when a mod mentioned "Threadstone" from the Bourne series. Especially when it's actually called Treadstone, Jesus.
On November 27 2011 21:28 Twisted wrote: Meh, Threadstone imo.
"I don't have much time, but everyone in this thread is dead wrong. You fools, you've been blind this whole time by the goings on under your very noses!
I have with much degree of certainty uncovered the horrifying truth that the greatest special forces unit of all ti-"
*Crash*
"Who's there? Oh no, they've - they're coming for me! I can't -"
On November 27 2011 18:48 thesideshow wrote: I'll bet no one even knows about the most elite SF.
This is what I'm thinking. The most elite SF is a secret arm of an intelligence agency or something.
I guess I'll take my pick of the well known forces then. It seems people are using different standards here. If the standard is "who are the toughest badasses who endure the most difficult training," there are plenty of candidates. But when it comes to actually accomplishing a very specific mission in a clean and efficient way, I wouldn't choose anyone over the US Navy Seals. You can count on them to get the job done for sure.
On November 29 2011 05:02 kanada wrote: this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä is pretty bad ass, not part of a team but a single man with a hunting rifle that killed 505 soviets trying to cross his land. and even had lots of confirmed kills after being shot in the jaw.
EDIT: soviets not nazi's
"It was during the Winter War (1939–1940), between Finland and the Soviet Union, that he began his duty as a sniper and fought for the Finnish Army against the Red Army. In temperatures between −40 and −20 degrees Celsius, dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers.[3][5] A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was conducted for the Finnish snipers. Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over 200 kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun.[5] Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days at a time of year with very short hours of daylight.[6][7][8] Häyhä used a Finnish militia variant, White Guard M/28 "Pystykorva" or "Spitz", of the Russian Mosin-Nagant rifle, because it suited his small frame (5 ft 3 in/1.60 m). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present a smaller target (the sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight), for more reliable visibility (a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather), and aid concealment (sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position). Another tactic used by Häyhä was to compact the snow in front of him so that the shot would not disturb the snow and reveal his position.[citation needed] He also kept snow in his mouth, so that the vapor of his breath would not give him away.[citation needed] The Soviets tried several ploys to get rid of him, including counter-snipers and artillery strikes. On March 6, 1940, Häyhä was shot in the lower left jaw by a Russian soldier during combat. The bullet tumbled upon impact and exited his head. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his head was missing", but he was not dead: he regained consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared. Shortly after the war Häyhä was promoted from alikersantti (corporal) to Second Lieutenant by Field Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim; no one else has gained rank so quickly in Finland's military history."
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
Read what you want from Human Rights or whatever, BOPE does kick ass and do their jobs. All these guys want to do is defend criminals and get some money in return. NEVER seen Human Rights try and help the VICTIM, only the criminal.
Don't believe everything you read or hear, I actually LIVE HERE.
On November 29 2011 05:21 McFeser wrote: It's probably an American team, seeing as we have the highest funding and have been the most militaristically active nation in the last 100 years.
I don't understand this argument. Money put in an entire army does not factor here. One elite team. A single bored billionaire could fund a squad to the same level as the american army funds a single squad. 20 of the best guns and body-armor in the world is still something a small country can easily afford.
On November 27 2011 17:40 TheKefka wrote: I assume that a US unit like the SEALS have the upper hand on pretty much everyone because pretty much any new technology that comes around sees its first use in this environment if it can be of use.
I don't know much about others but if I would have to say someone from a pure "bad-ass" point of view I would say the Israeli Defense Forces because they developed Krav Maga. Here's a video about it from human weapon episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTE7tjXKVc8
What on earth are you on about? Doubt USA is significantly "ahead" in the technology department.
If any country would have the better developed forces, Russia is pretty much the non-brainer, without even trying to involve myself in the discussion. Find it quite the pointless topic, since this can not be verified, like watching deadliest warrior, fucking pointless.(best program ever though)
Russia has, what? 10 times the manpower than the USA and an army of like 20.000.000 soldiers including reserves. Pretty sure they would have the better developed forces, if any.
Again, can be discussed, but no point offering anything else than an opinion since there is no way of putting it to the test.
Um Russia has an 2,000,000 armed forces members including reserves. The US has about 3,000,000 including reserves.
Also Defense Spending by Country in Billions The US spends almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED
Pretty clear that if any country has a technological at advantage it is going to be the US.
Also the US has about twice the population of Russia. I hope you were joking, but somehow I think you were serious.
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
LOL, its not like that... for starters, BOPE is a division of the Rio de Janeiro police force, meaning they only act in Rio, and drugs are somewhat of a problem, but not even close to ''running things over'' in Rio.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
For the record, there is actually a division higher than the JTF2. I guess that's why we call them famous O;
On November 27 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 27 2011 17:19 decafchicken wrote: BOPE definitely have balls of fucking steal. From what i've seen they're pretty much the only thing that keep brazil from being ran by drug cartels.
Yeah, right. They are also known for being one of the greatest crew of murderers of all democratic nation's security forces.
But if "Elite" is about killing a lot of people, having action like in a video game and having "badass" uniforms with skulls and everything, yeah, they fit the description.
Pity that for internet youth, "having balls of steal" and being a brutal murderer basically mean the same thing.
Read what you want from Human Rights or whatever, BOPE does kick ass and do their jobs. All these guys want to do is defend criminals and get some money in return. NEVER seen Human Rights try and help the VICTIM, only the criminal.
Don't believe everything you read or hear, I actually LIVE HERE.
WTF bro, they DEFEND criminals? I don't understand how you are on their side.
Navy Seals Special Forces are top in terms of gear and equipement. Their budget makes them cream of the crop. In terms of pure mental fortitude&toughness, guys like the Brazilians and Mongol Horse archers are ridiculously tough. In history overall, it goes without saying that Sparta will always be one of the toughest armies to beat.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
Simple answer. We don't know. Not because we can't figure it out but probably because we don't know they exist. Can't tell whos the best when you don't know of their existence.
Any special forces team is going to be strongest in the environment it was best trained in. I would think that overall the American teams would be the strongest because we have significant real combat experience in many different environments as well as training in every possible environment imaginable.
However, it really would come down to where do these fighters meet and under what circumstances. Not just understanding the terrain, but other environmental factors. For example if you are going to send a team into a city with the express purpose of taking out a known terrorist, that is not the same as performing an urban assassination of a politician, and neither of those is remotely similar to performing a jungle rescue mission.
I would rate us as number one on the grounds that if you pick a completely random mission out of a hat, I think on average over many missions we would ultimately score the highest. On specific types of missions we would of course lose many of them. Just as an example, I think the Israeli commandos have a much better proven track record against terrorist targets than we do.
In my mind I tossed around such titles as Marine Force Recon, Delta Force, SAS, Spetsnaz, IDF/Sayeret, SEALS, etc. but I'll be honest, I pretty much have no idea what they do specifically, or what would separate one from the other.
I am not really interested in having this turn into a pissing contest or anything negative where people deride another nations army. I am mostly looking for insight into what popular opinion is, and maybe learn some things I didn't know. I'm sure this will be of interest to others out there too.
Special operations forces (SOF) perform a variety of missions, many of which don't actually involve killing people or blowing stuff up. Different types of SOF are organized and trained to carry out different types of missions. Because of this specialization, the question of "most elite" is somewhat of a misnomer - although some rough hierarchies exist in terms of "elite-ness," different SOF are really organized to accomplish different missions. I hope the OP was serious about learning a bit more about the various roles played by various special forces, because this has ended up being a pretty long post.
I am most familiar with the SOF of the United States, so I will draw on them primarily for examples, but many different countries' SOF have similar specialties. To start, there is the broadest-possible organization - the group responsible for all SOF training and activities. In the United States military, this organization is known as the Special Operations COMmand, or SOCOM. Broadly-speaking, SOCOM is responsible for the training, equipping, and deploying American SOF from all branches of the military (excluding the Coast Guard, which has its own special operations organization but collaborates with SOCOM for training purposes). SOCOM is the equivalent of the Russian "Spetznaz" or the British "United Kingdom Special Forces" (UKSF) - a broad organization containing many different operational elements capable of carrying out a wide variety of tasks. In terms of the variety and depth of its operational capabilities, SOCOM is probably the most powerful and effective special operations force in the world. You can read all about SOCOM and its various components and capabilities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command
Within SOCOM, a variety of different units are maintained to carry out different missions. Although the specialized units tend to be smaller and more selective, they aren't so much "better" as "more specialized." The largest and most general of these units (and the basis for most of the US military's SOF) is the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 75th is organized into three battalions, each with approximately 1,000 soldiers. Rangers serve as a sort of premier light infantry force organized primarily for rapid-response and deployment via air. They are usually deployed in situations that require a larger number of elite soldiers - thus, Rangers are often the "tip of the spear" in a major US military operation, seizing forward airfields and operating locations to disrupt enemy operations and allow follow-on forces access. Their mobility and lethality has also found them roles in a wide variety of unconventional conflicts, from hunting Mohammed Aideed in Mogadishu to fighting "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia." Ranger skills (physical excellence, small arms, small-unit tactics, airborne training) serve as the basis for most of the US military's more specialized SOF (in fact, most US special operators will have attended Ranger School in some form at some point during their careers). The Marine Corps has an equivalent unit - the Marine Special Operations Regiment (MSOR) - that is similar in scale and mission profile to the Rangers.
Beyond the Rangers and the MSOR, the US military also maintains a wide variety of much more specialized SOF, each with their own focus. Although these units are still able to kick ass with the best of them, their specialties often tend towards non-kinetic missions. For example, the Marine Corps "Force Recon" units train primarily for unconventional warfare and intelligence gathering, especially in support of amphibious operations. The US Navy's Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) teams focus on special operations in the littoral environment, including underwater demolitions, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, security maritime targets (ships, oil rigs, port facilities) and small boats operations, though also with a healthy focus on direct-action missions (i.e., killing people and blowing shit up). The US Army's 160th Special Operations regiment operates SOCOM's helicopters, while the Air Force maintains a variety of Special Operations Wings to operate SOCOM's various aircraft, including the MC-130 infiltration aircraft and AC-130 gunship. The US Army also maintains psyops, civil affairs, and sustainment units to help shape opinions and provide support to civilians caught in the combat zone.
Perhaps the most diverse SOF in their skills are the United States Army Special Forces, or "Green Berets." Green Berets are selected not only for their physical, technical, and tactical excellence, but also for their reasoning ability and language skills. Green Berets are trained in direct action, unconventional warfare, and intelligence gathering operations like other SOF, but also have a focus on collaboration with local allies to enhance US security. Green Berets are assigned a regional specialty and focus on learning the languages, cultures, and customs of their regional specialty. Thus, Green Berets are often utilized in training foreign militaries (whenever you read about the US sending military trainers to another country, it's probably the Green Berets), partnering with foreign security agencies to hunt criminals and terrorists, engaging in counter-insurgency missions to weed out insurgents from the local population, supporting pro-US sub-state groups against hostile regimes, and generally trying to improve cooperation between the US military and other parties (generally referred to as "white" special missions, to distinguish them from "black" ops like unconventional warfare and direct action). The wide skillset of the Green Berets provides the US military with an unparalleled tool for collaboration and subversion, as necessary. In this regard, they are the US military's premier "white" operations SOF.
SOCOM's various specialized units provide any number of services, from collaboration with allies to littoral warfare to airborne covert infiltration and extraction to providing aid to refugees in wartime. For its most challenging "black" operations, however, SOCOM also has the "Joint Special Operations Command," or JSOC. JSOC is composed of a small cadre of SOF deemed "Tier 1" by the US military, responsible for the most sensitive and secretive covert operations, including direct action, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, and counter-terrorism. All of these units recruit from the best of the best of the various other SOF forces; they also have (imo) the coolest names. The publicly-known components of JSOC are Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (aka, "Delta Force"), the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "DEVGRU" or, more anachronistically, "Seal Team 6"), the Intelligence Support Activity (aka, "The Activity"), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (aka, "the WhiteRa;" all right, I made that one up). In terms of "elite-ness," these would probably be the premier units; however, their specialties tend to be in small, secretive "black" operations.
For various legal reasons, the US government also maintains a series of units outside of SOCOM that might in other countries be considered to be SOF. The CIA's Special Activities Division engages in various SOF missions, including intelligence gathering, partnering with foreign agencies, and unconventional warfare, but is not officially part of the military (providing greater flexibility and deniability in sensitive situations). The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group includes Hostage Rescue Teams (HRTs) and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which emulate many special forces capabilities and practices but are employed primarily in domestic law-enforcement issues. Any number of similar organizations exist to provide specialized security needs for various US government functions.
Thus, in terms of "elite-ness," I'd say that the US SOCOM's "Tier 1" JSOC units are probably the world's premier elite SOF - the elite of the elite. However, it's important to remember that various SOF provide various functions. In terms of the variety of capabilities, I think it's pretty clear that US SOCOM is by far the world's most "elite" special operations agency.
On November 27 2011 17:46 Fighter wrote: Well, Spetsnaz beat the Navy Seals on The Ultimate Warrior.
That show's like, totally legit and scientific. So that's that.
I really hope that's sarcasm. I've seen many times on that show where some very questionable test methods have been incorporated. It's more just for the fun than anything, it really doesn't discuss the most important part of any special forces team, which is their training.
My dad's late uncle was SAS. My dad's side of the family lived in quite a rough area of Glasgow at the time, and he was walking home from his local pub one night when three guys (basically petty thugs from his street who mugged and robbed people) tried to get his wallet from him; with one of them wielding a baseball bat.
He was quite a quiet guy, obviously never ever said anything about his service, and never boasted about his training or anything. The most he said about it afterwards was "I took them to the police station". They never got his wallet.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
On November 27 2011 17:46 Fighter wrote: Well, Spetsnaz beat the Navy Seals on The Ultimate Warrior.
That show's like, totally legit and scientific. So that's that.
I really hope that's sarcasm. I've seen many times on that show where some very questionable test methods have been incorporated. It's more just for the fun than anything, it really doesn't discuss the most important part of any special forces team, which is their training.
key word in special forces is special as in they are trained to do a limited role, but it's a difficult and dangerous role but they are trained to do it exceptionally, most in the US are named so as the operate as the "tip of the spear". The thread is more about what do you think is cool as technically the most "elite" special forces would be the one that turns away the most people with only holding a small pool of people in total but, i digress. I've always been partial to the Seebees of the US Navy although they aren't exactly what people would call elite force and i mostly think about WWII seebees. In general i'm partial to all that fall into similar roles from USAF red horse to USMC combat engineers
In my mind I tossed around such titles as Marine Force Recon, Delta Force, SAS, Spetsnaz, IDF/Sayeret, SEALS, etc. but I'll be honest, I pretty much have no idea what they do specifically, or what would separate one from the other.
I am not really interested in having this turn into a pissing contest or anything negative where people deride another nations army. I am mostly looking for insight into what popular opinion is, and maybe learn some things I didn't know. I'm sure this will be of interest to others out there too.
Special operations forces (SOF) perform a variety of missions, many of which don't actually involve killing people or blowing stuff up. Different types of SOF are organized and trained to carry out different types of missions. Because of this specialization, the question of "most elite" is somewhat of a misnomer - although some rough hierarchies exist in terms of "elite-ness," different SOF are really organized to accomplish different missions. I hope the OP was serious about learning a bit more about the various roles played by various special forces, because this has ended up being a pretty long post.
I am most familiar with the SOF of the United States, so I will draw on them primarily for examples, but many different countries' SOF have similar specialties. To start, there is the broadest-possible organization - the group responsible for all SOF training and activities. In the United States military, this organization is known as the Special Operations COMmand, or SOCOM. Broadly-speaking, SOCOM is responsible for the training, equipping, and deploying American SOF from all branches of the military (excluding the Coast Guard, which has its own special operations organization but collaborates with SOCOM for training purposes). SOCOM is the equivalent of the Russian "Spetznaz" or the British "United Kingdom Special Forces" (UKSF) - a broad organization containing many different operational elements capable of carrying out a wide variety of tasks. In terms of the variety and depth of its operational capabilities, SOCOM is probably the most powerful and effective special operations force in the world. You can read all about SOCOM and its various components and capabilities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command
Within SOCOM, a variety of different units are maintained to carry out different missions. Although the specialized units tend to be smaller and more selective, they aren't so much "better" as "more specialized." The largest and most general of these units (and the basis for most of the US military's SOF) is the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 75th is organized into three battalions, each with approximately 1,000 soldiers. Rangers serve as a sort of premier light infantry force organized primarily for rapid-response and deployment via air. They are usually deployed in situations that require a larger number of elite soldiers - thus, Rangers are often the "tip of the spear" in a major US military operation, seizing forward airfields and operating locations to disrupt enemy operations and allow follow-on forces access. Their mobility and lethality has also found them roles in a wide variety of unconventional conflicts, from hunting Mohammed Aideed in Mogadishu to fighting "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia." Ranger skills (physical excellence, small arms, small-unit tactics, airborne training) serve as the basis for most of the US military's more specialized SOF (in fact, most US special operators will have attended Ranger School in some form at some point during their careers). The Marine Corps has an equivalent unit - the Marine Special Operations Regiment (MSOR) - that is similar in scale and mission profile to the Rangers.
Beyond the Rangers and the MSOR, the US military also maintains a wide variety of much more specialized SOF, each with their own focus. Although these units are still able to kick ass with the best of them, their specialties often tend towards non-kinetic missions. For example, the Marine Corps "Force Recon" units train primarily for unconventional warfare and intelligence gathering, especially in support of amphibious operations. The US Navy's Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) teams focus on special operations in the littoral environment, including underwater demolitions, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, security maritime targets (ships, oil rigs, port facilities) and small boats operations, though also with a healthy focus on direct-action missions (i.e., killing people and blowing shit up). The US Army's 160th Special Operations regiment operates SOCOM's helicopters, while the Air Force maintains a variety of Special Operations Wings to operate SOCOM's various aircraft, including the MC-130 infiltration aircraft and AC-130 gunship. The US Army also maintains psyops, civil affairs, and sustainment units to help shape opinions and provide support to civilians caught in the combat zone.
Perhaps the most diverse SOF in their skills are the United States Army Special Forces, or "Green Berets." Green Berets are selected not only for their physical, technical, and tactical excellence, but also for their reasoning ability and language skills. Green Berets are trained in direct action, unconventional warfare, and intelligence gathering operations like other SOF, but also have a focus on collaboration with local allies to enhance US security. Green Berets are assigned a regional specialty and focus on learning the languages, cultures, and customs of their regional specialty. Thus, Green Berets are often utilized in training foreign militaries (whenever you read about the US sending military trainers to another country, it's probably the Green Berets), partnering with foreign security agencies to hunt criminals and terrorists, engaging in counter-insurgency missions to weed out insurgents from the local population, supporting pro-US sub-state groups against hostile regimes, and generally trying to improve cooperation between the US military and other parties (generally referred to as "white" special missions, to distinguish them from "black" ops like unconventional warfare and direct action). The wide skillset of the Green Berets provides the US military with an unparalleled tool for collaboration and subversion, as necessary. In this regard, they are the US military's premier "white" operations SOF.
SOCOM's various specialized units provide any number of services, from collaboration with allies to littoral warfare to airborne covert infiltration and extraction to providing aid to refugees in wartime. For its most challenging "black" operations, however, SOCOM also has the "Joint Special Operations Command," or JSOC. JSOC is composed of a small cadre of SOF deemed "Tier 1" by the US military, responsible for the most sensitive and secretive covert operations, including direct action, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, and counter-terrorism. All of these units recruit from the best of the best of the various other SOF forces; they also have (imo) the coolest names. The publicly-known components of JSOC are Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (aka, "Delta Force"), the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "DEVGRU" or, more anachronistically, "Seal Team 6"), the Intelligence Support Activity (aka, "The Activity"), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (aka, "the WhiteRa;" all right, I made that one up). In terms of "elite-ness," these would probably be the premier units; however, their specialties tend to be in small, secretive "black" operations.
For various legal reasons, the US government also maintains a series of units outside of SOCOM that might in other countries be considered to be SOF. The CIA's Special Activities Division engages in various SOF missions, including intelligence gathering, partnering with foreign agencies, and unconventional warfare, but is not officially part of the military (providing greater flexibility and deniability in sensitive situations). The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group includes Hostage Rescue Teams (HRTs) and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which emulate many special forces capabilities and practices but are employed primarily in domestic law-enforcement issues. Any number of similar organizations exist to provide specialized security needs for various US government functions.
Thus, in terms of "elite-ness," I'd say that the US SOCOM's "Tier 1" JSOC units are probably the world's premier elite SOF - the elite of the elite. However, it's important to remember that various SOF provide various functions. In terms of the variety of capabilities, I think it's pretty clear that US SOCOM is by far the world's most "elite" special operations agency.
I am indeed interested in learning more about this subject, and I've read every post here thus far. I appreciate your post, it was really informative and helped explain how everything "fits together."
I appreciate everyone's input here. I've learned a heck of a lot of interesting things and realized that the role these soldiers play is a lot more than just "wrecking stuff." I'm glad I started the thread
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
I didn't know that and I have a lot of marine friends, lol.
As a side note, there is a huge differance between Marines and the Army in terms of effeciency. If you look at major offensives, the casualties in the Marines are signifigantly lower than any other branch engaged in the same offensive. To take the cream of the crop of said group (Seal team 6 for instance) hints at how good they probably are.
That being said, the advantage of home terran kind of cancels out a lot of the advantages the best special ops teams have. Spetnaz train in the cold of Russia and the Brazilian ops would have no chance fighting them under those circumstances (And vice versa). That being said, guided missiles work pretty much the same in every enviroment so my answer for best special ops team is whoever has the best pilots
IDF/Sayeret Golani brigade' pretty hard core... there' probably divisions we don't even know about... greater the threat, greater the anticipation i say...
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
I didn't know that and I have a lot of marine friends, lol.
As a side note, there is a huge differance between Marines and the Army in terms of effeciency. If you look at major offensives, the casualties in the Marines are signifigantly lower than any other branch engaged in the same offensive. To take the cream of the crop of said group (Seal team 6 for instance) hints at how good they probably are.
That being said, the advantage of home terran kind of cancels out a lot of the advantages the best special ops teams have. Spetnaz train in the cold of Russia and the Brazilian ops would have no chance fighting them under those circumstances (And vice versa). That being said, guided missiles work pretty much the same in every enviroment so my answer for best special ops team is whoever has the best pilots
Really? I though that was comman knowledge (Marines being naval forces). Either way, I have to agree, any type of conflict would be purely circumstancial.
If I had to venture a guess, I would probably say the SEAL teams were the best. Simply because they have the most resources, are the most funded and have the best technology.
If we measure "elite" by skill and training, there's simply no contest. DEVGRU members are hand-picked from the best SEALs. As elite as SEALs are, the DEVGRU training course is so tough that many veteran SEALs cannot pass it (only between 12.5-60% of each class pass). Due to their intensive training, DEVGRU fires more rounds of ammo per year than the entire Marine Corps. The military spares no expense on their training, and gives DEVGRU operators their choice of the best military schools from any of the branches (USMC Scout Sniper School, USAF Parajumper School, etc.) They also recieve the very best and newest cutting-edge technology; the DEVGRU team that killed Bin Laden was armed with never-before-seen stealth helicopters and HK 416s.
Essentially, DEVGRU are the special forces of the special forces, the best of the best of the most militarily advanced nation ever known to mankind.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Marines can't even enlist to be SEALS. You have to be in the Navy or Coast Guard.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Marines can't even enlist to be SEALS. You have to be in the Navy or Coast Guard.
Yes, hence the term Navy SEALS. And even though that the Marines use the Navy to actually get ashore, Marines and Navy are two completely separate parts of the US Armed Forces, aside from the Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard.
The legendary SEAL Team 6 (DEVGRU) in particular....
This unit has always been strictly classified. In general there are 12 SEAL Teams - 9 of them have 6 platoons, 2 of them have 4. One of them is unknown and this is SEAL Team 6 also known as DEVGRU (United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group).
Said to be dissolved there existance was "leaked" into the media when Osama Bin Laden was killed.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Actually, no, you're wrong, the marine corps is a whole different branch of the US armed forces when it comes to the military structure. The two branches (the Marine corps and the Navy) have two different people representing them in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Commandant of the Marine corps and the Chief of Naval Operations. The division was less clear initially, however - it was cimented after the Second World War. There are a lot of links between the Marine Corps and the Navy (for example on the civilian side they both depend on the Department of the Navy), but they're still two different branches of the armed forces.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Delta Force does not exist anymore, it has been integrated into the Navy. At this moment in time the Navy owns all sections of known special forces units in the United States Military. And for the OP's curiosity in this day and age the forces with the most advanced technology and most funding is the most elite force which is quite overwhelmingly the US Navy SEALS. If you were to look at money necessary to train a SEAL compared to any other branch of Military they are but a fraction of the cost. My dad is a Lt. Col in the US Army, if that gives me any credibility.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Delta Force does not exist anymore, it has been integrated into the Navy. At this moment in time the Navy owns all sections of known special forces units in the United States Military.
what? green berets are army right? pararescue jumpers work with seals but they are air force...?
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Delta Force does not exist anymore, it has been integrated into the Navy. At this moment in time the Navy owns all sections of known special forces units in the United States Military.
what? green berets are army right? pararescue jumpers work with seals but they are air force...?
thats just a couple or am I missing something
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities, they are associated a lot because the marines embark on navy vessels a lot and work with the navy but they are totally separate groups of the US military. SEALs are under the navy. Green berets are NOT delta force, a delta force soldier shits on the green berets in terms of skill and difficulty of the missions they carry out, both of these groups are in the army though so I can understand the confusion. Spetsnaz does still exist technically it's simply a russian word that literally means 'special forces', the group that most people associate the word with doesn't exist anymore, although I'm sure some form of it still operates today. SAS soldiers are rarely considered as talented as their American counterparts such as delta force or the SEALs, etc
Nowadays most of these groups work as anti-terrorism groups by carrying out special missions, it doesn't really matter which one is the most talented they all have retartedly difficult training and are all extremely talented, these are the type of human beings that push the limits of the word 'impossible' and everyone should be grateful for their sacrifice and work.
This post wasn't directed at you, Travis, it was directed at all the other morons confusing people, although a lot of special ops group work in secrecy so the confusion is totally understandable. Hope this helped.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Delta Force does not exist anymore, it has been integrated into the Navy. At this moment in time the Navy owns all sections of known special forces units in the United States Military.
what? green berets are army right? pararescue jumpers work with seals but they are air force...?
thats just a couple or am I missing something
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities, they are associated a lot because the marines embark on navy vessels a lot and work with the navy but they are totally separate groups of the US military. SEALs are under the navy. Green berets are NOT delta force, a delta force soldier shits on the green berets in terms of skill and difficulty of the missions they carry out, both of these groups are in the army though so I can understand the confusion. Spetsnaz does still exist technically it's simply a russian word that literally means 'special forces', the group that most people associate the word with doesn't exist anymore, although I'm sure some form of it still operates today. SAS soldiers are rarely considered as talented as their American counterparts such as delta force or the SEALs, etc
Nowadays most of these groups work as anti-terrorism groups by carrying out special missions, it doesn't really matter which one is the most talented they all have retartedly difficult training and are all extremely talented, these are the type of human beings that push the limits of the word 'impossible' and everyone should be grateful for their sacrifice and work.
This post wasn't directed at you, Travis, it was directed at all the other morons confusing people, although a lot of special ops group work in secrecy so the confusion is totally understandable. Hope this helped.
Interesting.
Throughout history Marine Corps were originally designed to be the naval infantry. Many countries today still label their Marine Corps as part of the Navy. Im pretty sure thats how the US Marines were originally set up. After searching the marine and Navy webpages I can see your right, they are now a seperate entity under a different command, at least in the United states. The Royal Marines in Britain and the Royal Canadian marine corps appear to be still under naval command (although I cant seem to find any info about it, info about the US is much more available).
I found this wikipedia page which i thought was interesting because it broke down all the different special forces units and what military branch they belong too. But its wikipedia, so may not be that reliable.
On November 29 2011 12:14 jaydubzsc2 wrote: Shayetet 13 protecting Israeli since 1948
Israel has some mean outfits that's for sure. The famous Sayeret Matkal is probably the most notorious. Shayetet is absolutely ridiculous but goes hand in hand with Shaldag and SM
Along the lines of BOPA is the Duvdevan - means Cherry in hebrew lol - they insert themselves into hostile communities across the West Bank
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Marines can't even enlist to be SEALS. You have to be in the Navy or Coast Guard.
Yes, hence the term Navy SEALS. And even though that the Marines use the Navy to actually get ashore, Marines and Navy are two completely separate parts of the US Armed Forces, aside from the Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard.
Marines have the Marine Force Recon unit to go for.
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities
Um..... no, they are not. The Marine Corps falls under the Department of the Navy. While they behave separately and are considered different branches, they are still under the same banner.... this is why USMC officers are trained at the Naval Academy (or for example, why a naval officer tries a marine in A Few Good Men). Functionally, they are separate for the most part, but organizationally they are more associated with each other than for example the Air Force and the Army (which once upon a time had a similar symbiotic relationship).
That said, Navy SEALs are the best the US has. Green Beret's, while special forces, are very politically minded. Combat Controllers are the general elite unit of the Air Force, they are used to secure remote areas to establish forward operating airfields.
I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Navy SEALS because I'm biased. SAS and BOPE also look like they don't take shit from anyone.
Source: a one hour Discovery Channel special on special military units, which qualifies me to argue about this for 15 pages using 3000 word long posts and Wikipedia citations.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Yep..
If anything it could be argued the PJs are more elite than seals, as (i believe) it's basically the same program with a little bit extra training.
On November 29 2011 01:52 Darpa wrote: Every country has their own special forces unit, it would be really hard to judge who would actually be "the best". Its probably more about being famous would be considered "the best" by most people. Each countries Army and Navy general has a special forces team. Also, most countries have seperate domestic and foreign special forces units. For example, some seal teams are for domestic disputes while others international (seal team 6)
Most famous ones
Delta Force (US army) Seal Teams (US Marines) KSK Kommando Spezialkräfte (German Special forces) Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale (GIGN) (French special forces) SAS - Special Air servicesBritish Army Special forces) Special Boat services (SBS - British Navy special forces) United Kingdom Special Forces (UKSF - UK combination of air, army, navy) Joint Task force 2 (Canadian Army/Navy Special forces) Spetnaz (Russian Army special forces) BOPE (Special Police Operations Battalion ) - More of a police Unit akin to SWAT than a military unit COMSUBIN (Italian navy special forces)
Those are the big ones that I can think of right now, although every country would most likely have some sort of military based unit. Im sure the Chinese have a big one, but I cant remember its name atm.
SEALS are not marines they are navy lol.
uhhhh you should probably know that the marines are the "ground forces" of the Navy (Naval Infantry). Technically speaking the marines are part of the navy. Hence "Marines" (Mariners, the word MARINE means navy in french and dutch).
So while you and I both are technically correct, SEAL teams are operated by Marine commanders.
Weird that I would know that and an american wouldnt O.o
Delta Force does not exist anymore, it has been integrated into the Navy. At this moment in time the Navy owns all sections of known special forces units in the United States Military.
what? green berets are army right? pararescue jumpers work with seals but they are air force...?
thats just a couple or am I missing something
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities, they are associated a lot because the marines embark on navy vessels a lot and work with the navy but they are totally separate groups of the US military. SEALs are under the navy. Green berets are NOT delta force, a delta force soldier shits on the green berets in terms of skill and difficulty of the missions they carry out, both of these groups are in the army though so I can understand the confusion. Spetsnaz does still exist technically it's simply a russian word that literally means 'special forces', the group that most people associate the word with doesn't exist anymore, although I'm sure some form of it still operates today. SAS soldiers are rarely considered as talented as their American counterparts such as delta force or the SEALs, etc
Nowadays most of these groups work as anti-terrorism groups by carrying out special missions, it doesn't really matter which one is the most talented they all have retartedly difficult training and are all extremely talented, these are the type of human beings that push the limits of the word 'impossible' and everyone should be grateful for their sacrifice and work.
This post wasn't directed at you, Travis, it was directed at all the other morons confusing people, although a lot of special ops group work in secrecy so the confusion is totally understandable. Hope this helped.
stop arguing about whose more or less elite because they are all gods right after i take a shit on the sas :DDD
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
If anything it could be argued the PJs are more elite than seals
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
except that that clearly comments more on the teaching than the difficulty.
calc 101 would have 100% fail if the teachers just didnt teach you the shit. but once you know it its just applying rules you know to problems. anything where you have to take what you know and apply it to a weird situation is hard no matter how well youve been taught.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
except that that clearly comments more on the teaching than the difficulty.
calc 101 would have 100% fail if the teachers just didnt teach you the shit. but once you know it its just applying rules you know to problems. anything where you have to take what you know and apply it to a weird situation is hard no matter how well youve been taught.
most of the failures in tough military schools are people quitting because they can't handle it. if someone fails for some other reason (hurt, can't perform a certain task properly) they can usually get recycled and do it again (depending on the school).
Delta Force by leaps and bounds. The US military still won't acknowledge that Delta Force exists. They refer to them as mere "special forces" or sometimes "agents." They do the shit that the US wants to be able to deny. And since the US has a hand in everything there is no way of knowing what all they've done. Honestly the only groups I could even see coming close to them in sheer badassery would be the British SAS or Russian Spetsnaz.
I used to live near Fort Bragg. My dad isn't with the military or anything but we lived in a neighborhood where pretty much everyone else was. Our next door neighbor was almost definitely in Delta Force and he was the largest most scary person I have ever seen. Like, if he wanted to kill me I think he could do it without breaking a sweat. We never knew for sure if he was in Delta or what because they aren't allowed to tell you or anyone they know exactly what they do.
I've also seen documentaries about Mogadishu where US Rangers (who aren't small fries themselves) said that when they once saw a Delta Force soldier go down they became terrified because to them the Delta boys were considered unkillable gods.
I'm not sure if they're the "most elite" but they're certainly the most mysterious and scariest of all the other special forces units in the world. The very fact that the military is so hush hush about their very existence and the sheer size of America's military endeavors should leave anyone with doubts that the Delta Force is pretty fucking terrifying.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
except that that clearly comments more on the teaching than the difficulty.
calc 101 would have 100% fail if the teachers just didnt teach you the shit. but once you know it its just applying rules you know to problems. anything where you have to take what you know and apply it to a weird situation is hard no matter how well youve been taught.
most of the failures in tough military schools are people quitting because they can't handle it. if someone fails for some other reason (hurt, can't perform a certain task properly) they can usually get recycled and do it again (depending on the school).
im not saying this isnt true, merely that fail rate isnt enough info to base something on
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
except that that clearly comments more on the teaching than the difficulty.
calc 101 would have 100% fail if the teachers just didnt teach you the shit. but once you know it its just applying rules you know to problems. anything where you have to take what you know and apply it to a weird situation is hard no matter how well youve been taught.
most of the failures in tough military schools are people quitting because they can't handle it. if someone fails for some other reason (hurt, can't perform a certain task properly) they can usually get recycled and do it again (depending on the school).
im not saying this isnt true, merely that fail rate isnt enough info to base something on
On November 29 2011 15:24 iSometric wrote: Saw a doc. on the SAS saying they were the "most elite." I guess over delta?
I don't think any special forces unit could match the record that the SAS has. The SAS was also the first modern "special forces" unit. So, yeah, if you judge it by that they probably beat everyone.
However Delta Force doesn't get credit for anything it does because the US military still refuses to acknowledge that they exist. There's just simply no barometers for people to judge whether or not Delta Force is the most elite unit. Because of how little information there is on them that leads me to believe that they must do some scary shit.
On November 29 2011 15:13 overt wrote: Delta Force by leaps and bounds. The US military still won't acknowledge that Delta Force exists. They refer to them as mere "special forces" or sometimes "agents." They do the shit that the US wants to be able to deny. And since the US has a hand in everything there is no way of knowing what all they've done. Honestly the only groups I could even see coming close to them in sheer badassery would be the British SAS or Russian Spetsnaz.
I used to live near Fort Bragg. My dad isn't with the military or anything but we lived in a neighborhood where pretty much everyone else was. Our next door neighbor was almost definitely in Delta Force and he was the largest most scary person I have ever seen. Like, if he wanted to kill me I think he could do it without breaking a sweat. We never knew for sure if he was in Delta or what because they aren't allowed to tell you or anyone they know exactly what they do.
I've also seen documentaries about Mogadishu where US Rangers (who aren't small fries themselves) said that when they once saw a Delta Force soldier go down they became terrified because to them the Delta boys were considered unkillable gods.
I'm not sure if they're the "most elite" but they're certainly the most mysterious and scariest of all the other special forces units in the world. The very fact that the military is so hush hush about their very existence and the sheer size of America's military endeavors should leave anyone with doubts that the Delta Force is pretty fucking terrifying.
is it weird that i got a broner from reading this?
Honestly it's probably some unit that we don't even know about. Governments do some really dark shit without people knowing, and it's the most likely that they would have some sort of hit squad/special force unit that is unknown to do their bidding without any repercussions.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
If anything it could be argued the PJs are more elite than seals
what is this i don't even
wow, what an impressive argument you have presented
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
did you know that PJs have a higher dropout rate than navy seals oh, thats what ur saying huh
I think this is the sort of topic that has to be divided by specialisation. For example i've heard the British and Israel employ the most accurate snipers, Spetsnaz and the New Zealand / Australia SAS for physical training, but im pretty sure the Americans and Brits employ the most advanced secret tech.
Just watched it and I would never be able to do a tenth of what they did lol. Truly amazing how much a person would need to withstand/endure just to be considered for entry to the special forces.
In my mind I tossed around such titles as Marine Force Recon, Delta Force, SAS, Spetsnaz, IDF/Sayeret, SEALS, etc. but I'll be honest, I pretty much have no idea what they do specifically, or what would separate one from the other.
I am not really interested in having this turn into a pissing contest or anything negative where people deride another nations army. I am mostly looking for insight into what popular opinion is, and maybe learn some things I didn't know. I'm sure this will be of interest to others out there too.
Special operations forces (SOF) perform a variety of missions, many of which don't actually involve killing people or blowing stuff up. Different types of SOF are organized and trained to carry out different types of missions. Because of this specialization, the question of "most elite" is somewhat of a misnomer - although some rough hierarchies exist in terms of "elite-ness," different SOF are really organized to accomplish different missions. I hope the OP was serious about learning a bit more about the various roles played by various special forces, because this has ended up being a pretty long post.
I am most familiar with the SOF of the United States, so I will draw on them primarily for examples, but many different countries' SOF have similar specialties. To start, there is the broadest-possible organization - the group responsible for all SOF training and activities. In the United States military, this organization is known as the Special Operations COMmand, or SOCOM. Broadly-speaking, SOCOM is responsible for the training, equipping, and deploying American SOF from all branches of the military (excluding the Coast Guard, which has its own special operations organization but collaborates with SOCOM for training purposes). SOCOM is the equivalent of the Russian "Spetznaz" or the British "United Kingdom Special Forces" (UKSF) - a broad organization containing many different operational elements capable of carrying out a wide variety of tasks. In terms of the variety and depth of its operational capabilities, SOCOM is probably the most powerful and effective special operations force in the world. You can read all about SOCOM and its various components and capabilities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command
Within SOCOM, a variety of different units are maintained to carry out different missions. Although the specialized units tend to be smaller and more selective, they aren't so much "better" as "more specialized." The largest and most general of these units (and the basis for most of the US military's SOF) is the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 75th is organized into three battalions, each with approximately 1,000 soldiers. Rangers serve as a sort of premier light infantry force organized primarily for rapid-response and deployment via air. They are usually deployed in situations that require a larger number of elite soldiers - thus, Rangers are often the "tip of the spear" in a major US military operation, seizing forward airfields and operating locations to disrupt enemy operations and allow follow-on forces access. Their mobility and lethality has also found them roles in a wide variety of unconventional conflicts, from hunting Mohammed Aideed in Mogadishu to fighting "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia." Ranger skills (physical excellence, small arms, small-unit tactics, airborne training) serve as the basis for most of the US military's more specialized SOF (in fact, most US special operators will have attended Ranger School in some form at some point during their careers). The Marine Corps has an equivalent unit - the Marine Special Operations Regiment (MSOR) - that is similar in scale and mission profile to the Rangers.
Beyond the Rangers and the MSOR, the US military also maintains a wide variety of much more specialized SOF, each with their own focus. Although these units are still able to kick ass with the best of them, their specialties often tend towards non-kinetic missions. For example, the Marine Corps "Force Recon" units train primarily for unconventional warfare and intelligence gathering, especially in support of amphibious operations. The US Navy's Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) teams focus on special operations in the littoral environment, including underwater demolitions, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, security maritime targets (ships, oil rigs, port facilities) and small boats operations, though also with a healthy focus on direct-action missions (i.e., killing people and blowing shit up). The US Army's 160th Special Operations regiment operates SOCOM's helicopters, while the Air Force maintains a variety of Special Operations Wings to operate SOCOM's various aircraft, including the MC-130 infiltration aircraft and AC-130 gunship. The US Army also maintains psyops, civil affairs, and sustainment units to help shape opinions and provide support to civilians caught in the combat zone.
Perhaps the most diverse SOF in their skills are the United States Army Special Forces, or "Green Berets." Green Berets are selected not only for their physical, technical, and tactical excellence, but also for their reasoning ability and language skills. Green Berets are trained in direct action, unconventional warfare, and intelligence gathering operations like other SOF, but also have a focus on collaboration with local allies to enhance US security. Green Berets are assigned a regional specialty and focus on learning the languages, cultures, and customs of their regional specialty. Thus, Green Berets are often utilized in training foreign militaries (whenever you read about the US sending military trainers to another country, it's probably the Green Berets), partnering with foreign security agencies to hunt criminals and terrorists, engaging in counter-insurgency missions to weed out insurgents from the local population, supporting pro-US sub-state groups against hostile regimes, and generally trying to improve cooperation between the US military and other parties (generally referred to as "white" special missions, to distinguish them from "black" ops like unconventional warfare and direct action). The wide skillset of the Green Berets provides the US military with an unparalleled tool for collaboration and subversion, as necessary. In this regard, they are the US military's premier "white" operations SOF.
SOCOM's various specialized units provide any number of services, from collaboration with allies to littoral warfare to airborne covert infiltration and extraction to providing aid to refugees in wartime. For its most challenging "black" operations, however, SOCOM also has the "Joint Special Operations Command," or JSOC. JSOC is composed of a small cadre of SOF deemed "Tier 1" by the US military, responsible for the most sensitive and secretive covert operations, including direct action, intelligence gathering, unconventional warfare, and counter-terrorism. All of these units recruit from the best of the best of the various other SOF forces; they also have (imo) the coolest names. The publicly-known components of JSOC are Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (aka, "Delta Force"), the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "DEVGRU" or, more anachronistically, "Seal Team 6"), the Intelligence Support Activity (aka, "The Activity"), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (aka, "the WhiteRa;" all right, I made that one up). In terms of "elite-ness," these would probably be the premier units; however, their specialties tend to be in small, secretive "black" operations.
For various legal reasons, the US government also maintains a series of units outside of SOCOM that might in other countries be considered to be SOF. The CIA's Special Activities Division engages in various SOF missions, including intelligence gathering, partnering with foreign agencies, and unconventional warfare, but is not officially part of the military (providing greater flexibility and deniability in sensitive situations). The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group includes Hostage Rescue Teams (HRTs) and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which emulate many special forces capabilities and practices but are employed primarily in domestic law-enforcement issues. Any number of similar organizations exist to provide specialized security needs for various US government functions.
Thus, in terms of "elite-ness," I'd say that the US SOCOM's "Tier 1" JSOC units are probably the world's premier elite SOF - the elite of the elite. However, it's important to remember that various SOF provide various functions. In terms of the variety of capabilities, I think it's pretty clear that US SOCOM is by far the world's most "elite" special operations agency.
I am indeed interested in learning more about this subject, and I've read every post here thus far. I appreciate your post, it was really informative and helped explain how everything "fits together."
I appreciate everyone's input here. I've learned a heck of a lot of interesting things and realized that the role these soldiers play is a lot more than just "wrecking stuff." I'm glad I started the thread
Then I'm glad to have contributed
I think it's important to give the non-kinetic special operations missions their due, especially since they don't usually get portrayed in the movies and video games about SOF (Rambo, Call of Duty, etc.). One area where I think the United States has a considerable lead over many other countries is in the development of "white" operations SOF. These sorts of special military partnerships were pioneered by the British in the first half of the 20th century (check out T.E. Lawrence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.e._lawrence) and O.C. Wingate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Charles_Wingate) for some history on the pioneers of modern collaborative special operations), but generally on an informal, case-by-case basis. The take-off of the US Army Special Forces ("Green Berets") in the early 1960s resulted in the world's first special forces organization dedicated to collaborative special operations. When it comes to unconventional warfare, military training, intelligence-gathering, counter-insurgency, civil aid, or other culturally-sensitive missions, the Green Berets really are the best of the best.
(A great Green Beret story: in 1994, the United States negotiated the peaceful end to Haiti's military government and occupied the country under Operation: Uphold Democracy to ensure a smooth transition back to civilian governance. While the US Marines were tasked with ensuring order in Haiti's urban areas, the Green Berets were largely in charge of keeping the peace throughout Haiti's countryside. This is no shit - a troop of Green Berets were driving along through Haiti's mountains when they came upon a small Haitian village. A large group of very angry people were getting ready to string an old woman up by her neck. The SF guys didn't speak much of the creole dialect of that region, but they knew French and some basic creole so they managed to figure out that the villagers were getting ready to hang this old woman because they thought she was a witch. The Green Berets can't just bust in and save this woman - the crowd is way too large, and they're supposed to be upholding the peace. So the leader of their team pulls out a glowstick, cracks it, walks up to the old woman, and starts waving it over her and saying the "Hail Mary" in English. The Haitians have no idea what's going on, because none of them have ever seen a glow stick before. Then the team leader turns back to the villagers and tells them that he's exorcised the demons from the woman, and that the villagers should leave her alone. Amazingly, it works. Language skills, cultural knowledge, quick thinking - a long way from the "shoot-'em-up" that is Modern Warfare 3).
The capability provided by the Green Berets is really important, because it is pretty unique to the United States. Many other countries have SOF that can do large-scale kinetic stuff like the Rangers or small-scale "black" ops like JSOC, but the Green Berets are pretty unique in their mission, capabilities, and global scale.
P.S. - I'll agree also that heli- and pararescue guys are totally boss.
This is a real life qualiy picture of a german gsg9 special force member. I know nothing about them,but theyre helmets can be seen from far away which makes them primary goals for awps. So smart.
Fail/dropout rates.. it's hard to look at them as pass/fail... and being tougher or easier.
These groups... sometimes they only have a very small amount of open slots... and they just keep weeding out folks until they have the numbers they need.
Out of class of 100 guys... 30 might be very qualified... but they only need to take 20. So 10 qualifed guys get cut.
The search and rescure folks... their might be 1-2 slots open at any given time... and if you have 20 qualified people looking for that spot... you are going to have a 90-95% "fail" rate.
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities
Um..... no, they are not. The Marine Corps falls under the Department of the Navy. While they behave separately and are considered different branches, they are still under the same banner.... this is why USMC officers are trained at the Naval Academy (or for example, why a naval officer tries a marine in A Few Good Men). Functionally, they are separate for the most part, but organizationally they are more associated with each other than for example the Air Force and the Army (which once upon a time had a similar symbiotic relationship).
That said, Navy SEALs are the best the US has. Green Beret's, while special forces, are very politically minded. Combat Controllers are the general elite unit of the Air Force, they are used to secure remote areas to establish forward operating airfields.
Again, NO. You are talking about the civilian leadership structure. In the military structure, in the armed forces, the Marine Corps is a DIFFERENT BRANCH than the US Navy. The distinction between the two was cimented in 1947 with the NSA and with the 1952 reform.
Sigh. Stop. Everyone needs to start at least using google before posting misinformation. Firstly, the marines and the navy are SEPARATE entities
Um..... no, they are not. The Marine Corps falls under the Department of the Navy. While they behave separately and are considered different branches, they are still under the same banner.... this is why USMC officers are trained at the Naval Academy (or for example, why a naval officer tries a marine in A Few Good Men). Functionally, they are separate for the most part, but organizationally they are more associated with each other than for example the Air Force and the Army (which once upon a time had a similar symbiotic relationship).
That said, Navy SEALs are the best the US has. Green Beret's, while special forces, are very politically minded. Combat Controllers are the general elite unit of the Air Force, they are used to secure remote areas to establish forward operating airfields.
Again, NO. You are talking about the civilian leadership structure. In the military structure, in the armed forces, the Marine Corps is a DIFFERENT BRANCH than the US Navy. The distinction between the two was cimented in 1947 with the NSA and with the 1952 reform.
You're both correct. The US Marine Corps is a distinct statutory branch of the US Department of Defense under the 1947 National Security Act - it is its own armed service, with its own member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) and, most tellingly, its own budget. The Marines have their own organization, their own equipment, and their own set of specialties that they contribute to a US joint combat commander.
That said, it is also true that the Marine Corps relies on the Navy, Air Force, and other organizations for a variety of administrative and logistical functions, including officer training (US Naval Academy), medical supplies (US Navy Corpsmen), and legal services (US Navy JAG, NCIS). Note that this doesn't make the Marine Corps less than a full service - the Marines' missions within the joint command structure don't require them to have their own dedicated officer training, medical staff, or legal services.
So, while the Marine Corps is dependent on the Navy to carry out many of its missions, it is still (by law) a separate armed service. This is distinct from many other countries, where the Marines are merely a specialized component of the Army or Navy.
On November 29 2011 16:19 B00ts wrote: I have one thing to donate to this thread (which probably has already been mentioned... but my vote..
Krav Maga.
Krav maga is a form of close quarters combat that is especially aimed at combat situations as in fight with no honor but to survive. I believe it is used by the Indian special forces and I take that's who you mean?
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
so how many regular joes fail Pararescue School is comparable to how many Navy Seals fail to make Team 6 or how many Rangers fail to join Delta force?
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
If anything it could be argued the PJs are more elite than seals
what is this i don't even
wow, what an impressive argument you have presented
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
did you know that PJs have a higher dropout rate than navy seals oh, thats what ur saying huh
i want to point this out to everyone in the thread SEALs =/= DEVGRU (aka seal team 6) st6 operators come from normal seal teams. they are the most experienced of the seals. just like how delta operators come from sf/rangers usually.
i could walk into an air force recruiting office right now and say "hey, i wanna be a pj" and they could set me up to be one. now try walking into a navy/army recruiting office and say "hey, i wanna be in st6/delta." it won't work out so well. delta and st6 take the most experienced, physically and mentally tough people from sf, rangers and seals.
go read the book inside delta force and compare it to pj training. just from the mere amount of training you could say delta is more "elite," and that's not even including the years delta operators have had in rangers and sf.
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
If anything it could be argued the PJs are more elite than seals
what is this i don't even
wow, what an impressive argument you have presented
On November 29 2011 15:07 Nitrogen wrote:
On November 29 2011 15:04 Timurid wrote:
On November 29 2011 14:57 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:
On November 29 2011 13:21 Syben wrote: I don't think that the United States Air Force Pararescue has been given enough credit in this thread. They have the highest fail rate of any U.S Special Forces branch and are utilized by all other special forces branches for missions.
Isn't that a bad thing? xD but yeah PJs are badass
Im confused about that statement too.
a school's difficulty is usually determined by the % of people that fail/quit.
did you know that PJs have a higher dropout rate than navy seals oh, thats what ur saying huh
i want to point this out to everyone in the thread SEALs =/= DEVGRU (aka seal team 6) st6 operators come from normal seal teams. they are the most experienced of the seals. just like how delta operators come from sf/rangers usually.
i could walk into an air force recruiting office right now and say "hey, i wanna be a pj" and they could set me up to be one. now try walking into a navy/army recruiting office and say "hey, i wanna be in st6/delta." it won't work out so well. delta and st6 take the most experienced, physically and mentally tough people from sf, rangers and seals.
go read the book inside delta force and compare it to pj training. just from the mere amount of training you could say delta is more "elite," and that's not even including the years delta operators have had in rangers and sf.
oh ok well thats interesting info i was just talking about seals and pjs in general
I'm not sure what they're called but the Israeli Special Forces sound pretty awesome from what I've heard from my professor. My history professor was apparently involved in U.S. Special Forces in Africa and he said he had dealings with Israeli Special Forces guys and they were the best of the best. One of his stories was the U.S. needed a USSR plane schematic so they asked the Israelis to get the blueprints. The agent they sent came back and landed the actual plane for them xD.
Clearly there is only one way to settle this. All the worlds most elites SF are sent to the....coliseum to do battle and finally put this question to rest!
But really this a fun thread but in no way shape or form will you get a solid answer
The best way is probably to hold a Poll that would give you an opinion bias which wouldn't be terrible.
Well if an acquaintance who was a ranger is right, I would go with black ops operatives.
He said he knows they're out there and they won't acknowledge you even exist and may kill you off if necessary but they exist. I would have to assume black ops types are trained in political coercion and assassination along with a similar training to what SEALs do. Yes I know "black ops" refers to the operation itself but I think it would be pretty logical in order to participate in one you'd have to receive even further training then what is already provided in say the DELTA Force or SEAL program.
The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
On November 30 2011 10:38 Beren wrote: The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
Like.. Why would they be kept a secret? Give me one reason. Bragging about your special forces is an excellent way to give your country political power, and prohibit attacks. Ofcourse you can't endanger identeties, but keeping the operation a secret makes no sence (unless it's illegal ofcourse). If you're talking about black ops stuff, you not only have to be an extremely skilled solider, but also a brainwashed nationalist. For instance when democratical leaders are assassinated by the CIA.
There was a show on TV about elite forces to counter terrorism acts in various contries.
DEVGRU was like #3 and tghere were 2 units on top of it. The #1 was a unit called cobra that acted in Europe. These guys were the most elite forces in the world. Trying to find a link or pictures of it might be a though one!
On November 30 2011 10:38 Beren wrote: The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
Like.. Why would they be kept a secret? Give me one reason. Bragging about your special forces is an excellent way to give your country political power, and prohibit attacks. Ofcourse you can't endanger identeties, but keeping the operation a secret makes no sence (unless it's illegal ofcourse). If you're talking about black ops stuff, you not only have to be an extremely skilled solider, but also a brainwashed nationalist. For instance when democratical leaders are assassinated by the CIA.
Because information is the most powerful weapon of war. Even more so for special operations which often deal with highly sensitive and probably covert operations. The less anyone knows about such operations, the higher the chance of success.
Intelligence agencies will probably be monitoring all military movements and known units, especially if they are capable of carrying out special tasks. Again, if no one knows about the unit, it can't be monitored (or infiltrated).
If nothing else, the most elite unit of all will definitely be first in line for black ops. Having an unknown unit will greatly aid in deniability if the mission fails.
If you want military might for deterrence and political power, you need a strong standing army and advanced technologies. Having a strong special ops unit doesn't help that much. Especially if you brag about their capabilities, then you're just giving the enemy opportunities to prepare lol.
On November 30 2011 10:38 Beren wrote: The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
Like.. Why would they be kept a secret? Give me one reason. Bragging about your special forces is an excellent way to give your country political power, and prohibit attacks. Ofcourse you can't endanger identeties, but keeping the operation a secret makes no sence (unless it's illegal ofcourse). If you're talking about black ops stuff, you not only have to be an extremely skilled solider, but also a brainwashed nationalist. For instance when democratical leaders are assassinated by the CIA.
Because information is the most powerful weapon of war. Even more so for special operations which often deal with highly sensitive and probably covert operations. The less anyone knows about such operations, the higher the chance of success.
Intelligence agencies will probably be monitoring all military movements and known units, especially if they are capable of carrying out special tasks. Again, if no one knows about the unit, it can't be monitored (or infiltrated).
If nothing else, the most elite unit of all will definitely be first in line for black ops. Having an unknown unit will greatly aid in deniability if the mission fails.
If you want military might for deterrence and political power, you need a strong standing army and advanced technologies. Having a strong special ops unit doesn't help that much. Especially if you brag about their capabilities, then you're just giving the enemy opportunities to prepare lol.
See, now we're talking in usefulness, whereas the thread was about which the most 'elite' or skilled team would be. My point is that being in a black ops team requires a lot more than skill. It requires a national fanatism that isn't quite necessary to the same level in spec ops. Look for instance at the SEALS, the SAS etc etc. That's special forces that are well known, and held up high in national media.
Only the top SEALS, Green Berets, Marine Recon, etc can be apart of it Marine recruiter told me they can use whatever weapons they want, dress however they want, and can be almost anyone, you'd never know they were even there, but if you get caught the US government will disenengage any knowledge of your existence as a soldier or even a US citizen.
Spanish "Boinas verdes" are also a must here and should be taken into consideration.
It should be also adressed that the first special forces ever made were "Tercios" who were the ones who pioneered the activities which we nowadays know as "special forces"
On November 30 2011 10:38 Beren wrote: The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
Like.. Why would they be kept a secret? Give me one reason. Bragging about your special forces is an excellent way to give your country political power, and prohibit attacks. Ofcourse you can't endanger identeties, but keeping the operation a secret makes no sence (unless it's illegal ofcourse). If you're talking about black ops stuff, you not only have to be an extremely skilled solider, but also a brainwashed nationalist. For instance when democratical leaders are assassinated by the CIA.
Because information is the most powerful weapon of war. Even more so for special operations which often deal with highly sensitive and probably covert operations. The less anyone knows about such operations, the higher the chance of success.
Intelligence agencies will probably be monitoring all military movements and known units, especially if they are capable of carrying out special tasks. Again, if no one knows about the unit, it can't be monitored (or infiltrated).
If nothing else, the most elite unit of all will definitely be first in line for black ops. Having an unknown unit will greatly aid in deniability if the mission fails.
If you want military might for deterrence and political power, you need a strong standing army and advanced technologies. Having a strong special ops unit doesn't help that much. Especially if you brag about their capabilities, then you're just giving the enemy opportunities to prepare lol.
See, now we're talking in usefulness, whereas the thread was about which the most 'elite' or skilled team would be. My point is that being in a black ops team requires a lot more than skill. It requires a national fanatism that isn't quite necessary to the same level in spec ops. Look for instance at the SEALS, the SAS etc etc. That's special forces that are well known, and held up high in national media.
Arguably the most nationally fanatistic (I don't know what I typed there) operatives will devote most of their lives to training making them the most well trained.
The most secret specops unit also be given the most advanced technologies and most experimental training techniques, making them the most "elite" in terms of capabilities.
On November 30 2011 10:38 Beren wrote: The most bad ass one is the one we don't know about.
If there is a video or documentary about them. They are not the most bad ass. The most bad ass unit has people that have trained and were former members or those units but the most bad ass were hand selected for another unit we don't know about. I could be getting to hollywood (maybe these units don't even exist) but if they do exist... THOSE GUYS.
Like.. Why would they be kept a secret? Give me one reason. Bragging about your special forces is an excellent way to give your country political power, and prohibit attacks. Ofcourse you can't endanger identeties, but keeping the operation a secret makes no sence (unless it's illegal ofcourse). If you're talking about black ops stuff, you not only have to be an extremely skilled solider, but also a brainwashed nationalist. For instance when democratical leaders are assassinated by the CIA.
Because information is the most powerful weapon of war. Even more so for special operations which often deal with highly sensitive and probably covert operations. The less anyone knows about such operations, the higher the chance of success.
Intelligence agencies will probably be monitoring all military movements and known units, especially if they are capable of carrying out special tasks. Again, if no one knows about the unit, it can't be monitored (or infiltrated).
If nothing else, the most elite unit of all will definitely be first in line for black ops. Having an unknown unit will greatly aid in deniability if the mission fails.
If you want military might for deterrence and political power, you need a strong standing army and advanced technologies. Having a strong special ops unit doesn't help that much. Especially if you brag about their capabilities, then you're just giving the enemy opportunities to prepare lol.
See, now we're talking in usefulness, whereas the thread was about which the most 'elite' or skilled team would be. My point is that being in a black ops team requires a lot more than skill. It requires a national fanatism that isn't quite necessary to the same level in spec ops. Look for instance at the SEALS, the SAS etc etc. That's special forces that are well known, and held up high in national media.
Arguably the most nationally fanatistic (I don't know what I typed there) operatives will devote most of their lives to training making them the most well trained.
The most secret specops unit also be given the most advanced technologies and most experimental training techniques, making them the most "elite" in terms of capabilities.
Wouldn't a black op just be a spy with a pistol and a silencer shooting a south american president in the head, and with too little knowledge to actually say anything interesting if caught? Well that's one kind. Black ops are usually just hired hitmen afaik. Why would you give the most advanced technology to a person who is half expected to be captured at some point anyway? Why wouldn't the official and famous spec ops be good enough for whatever mission that would require more firepower (say taking out NK / Iranian nuclear plants)? Just because you've heard the abbreviation doesn't exactly mean that you can look up their employee list on google. They're pretty secret about themselves too you know. Experimental training techniquies? What does that even mean? Like a hulk virus to turn themselves into monsters when angry? Taikwando? Why would you not want the best training for other, regular, spec ops, but save it for the secret ones? I don't get why secret would mean good. I assume you're thinking of some kind of James Bond character, with a car that can shoot fire and always finds away out of a tough spot thanks to his brilliant intellect and a hot lady. And with the added bonus that he doesn't work for the well known MI6, but for some kind of secret laboratory based group that resembles the 'Fringe' TV series. On top of that he's also a nationalistic fanatic. We're basically looking at Batman hired by the government here. Gosh this feels like I'm discussing religion ^_^
Many countries around the world train highly specialized SOF units, and many have proven effective over a consistent period of time. All things considered, none of these combined forces around the world match US SOF in funding or combat experience (for better or worse). It's a fact that US defense spending on SOF has increased drastically in the recent years. What was already at the top in shear size, technology, and global reach/presence has expanded even further in recent years, and continues as wars shift to specialized conflicts not directly involving other nations as in conventional conflict. Who possesses the most powerful SOF branch just isn't really open to debate given the plain facts.
As for some opinions from Rangers/SF guys... Need long distance patrol? Rapid ground assault on a location? Rangers. For big, decisive, direct action stuff, you want Rangers. T stereotype is they'll say you want them for anything. I think it's largely agreed these guys are great in specialized and larger scale assaults and patrols. They scour locations, they secure locations, they escort other units. Rangers fight in large units.
If you want the Hollywood/exciting stuff -- you're looking at SEALs (plus 'Delta', devgru, SAD, etc etc). Counter terrorism. Hostage rescue. Hostile territory info gathering. Small team work. These are the guys you think of doing close combat. Of course Rangers can kick doors too and oftentimes are deployed with SEALs in small team missions. SEALs are considered the guys you want for the high intensity type things, so I guess a lot of people will tout SEALs as being "the best 'special forces' ". ALl that said, it's not like SEALs or Rangers/SF or any of these guys are constantly doing 'epic' things. Usually they are training. They are frequently deployed into regions of the world, and there is action everywhere for US SOF. Even while deployed they continue training, so while they are doing missions, it's just like everyday training
On December 01 2011 05:16 Dub_doubt wrote: The most elite force is Delta
Only the top SEALS, Green Berets, Marine Recon, etc can be apart of it Marine recruiter told me they can use whatever weapons they want, dress however they want, and can be almost anyone, you'd never know they were even there, but if you get caught the US government will disenengage any knowledge of your existence as a soldier or even a US citizen.
one thing i liked about the new medal of honor game cover was that the spec force ppl really do look like biker thugs. Used to see those guys come in and out of airbase I used to work at.
Seal Team 6 > British SAS > Israeli Special Forces imo (never heard of bope, but they do sound badass)
Theres isnt really a yardstick to compare the performance of different special forces units from all around the world, but we can generally agree they're bat-shit crazy killing machines
Fox and/or Foxhound. You have to be someone insane and yet still militarily capable to be in those. Either that or have a terminator gene which insures your self-obsolescence at the end of a mission. Or maybe The Boss' group during the revolutionary movement in the Cold War.
My country's special forces could beat up your country's special forces.
But no seriously, SEAL Team Six is definitely up there. No real way of actually knowing though. Not only is everything classified, but it's a team of guys. Really tough to compare teams.
On December 01 2011 18:01 Pyskee wrote: My country's special forces could beat up your country's special forces.
But no seriously, SEAL Team Six is definitely up there. No real way of actually knowing though. Not only is everything classified, but it's a team of guys. Really tough to compare teams.
On December 01 2011 18:01 Pyskee wrote: My country's special forces could beat up your country's special forces.
But no seriously, SEAL Team Six is definitely up there. No real way of actually knowing though. Not only is everything classified, but it's a team of guys. Really tough to compare teams.
We need a tournament for this
EDIT: Single or double elim?
Mass TDM brawling!
On December 01 2011 04:58 StatX wrote: There was a show on TV about elite forces to counter terrorism acts in various contries.
DEVGRU was like #3 and tghere were 2 units on top of it. The #1 was a unit called cobra that acted in Europe. These guys were the most elite forces in the world. Trying to find a link or pictures of it might be a though one!
There's a 150km forced march for the sayeret matkal by the end of their training... while carrying a lot of equipment...and they're always going after the islamic militants around Israel on a daily basis...
1st SFOD-D seems pretty good at keeping them at bay in iraq/afghanistan
I just can't help but think this whole thing reads like my dad could beat up your dad. Is there an honest way to objectively measure the best of the best warriors against each other without them having a Battle Royale fight to the death?
There's no real yardstick by with which to measure or directly compare all of the special forces in the world, to be honest. Because many different groups are prepared and trained for different situations and with varying battlefield (and of course, outside it) objectives in mind, it just gets down to pretty subjective measurement. The Delta force will be deployed in a different series of combat operations compared to what some might term "DEVGRU", and this continues down the track a million times over. I think most people can agree obviously that the "elites" drawn from the elites will be top of the tier ie, DEVGRU, SAS/R Operators, Delta Force, their equivalents around the world will sit on a level of experience and excellence above the usually-specialisedunits they are drawn from, however. I suppose this is the term "Tier One Operative" has become very popular with which to refer to different groups.
Of course you would expect nations such as Israel and the United States of America to have significant budgets with which to equip and arm their forces that other nations might not (as well as different experiences, recruit stock to draw from, so on). But all of these groups with exceptionally demanding training will produce operatives of exceptional stock, and it would be difficult if not possible to fairly compare them.
I'd argue that the most 'elite' sf unit shouldn't be governmental, simply because privately run companies pay better. In other words, once the best soldiers from regular forces have been recruited for national special forces, the best members of these special forces soldiers will get recruited by private corporations. The most prominent example would of course be MPRI in the USA. Although I don't know enough about the private military sector to claim that they are the most elite company out there, I'm pretty convinced that by now, the state-run units are all lacking in comparison.
On December 01 2011 06:44 Euronyme wrote: Wouldn't a black op just be a spy with a pistol and a silencer shooting a south american president in the head, and with too little knowledge to actually say anything interesting if caught? Well that's one kind. Black ops are usually just hired hitmen afaik.
I'm sure black ops have many other tasks apart from assassination, that's just what the movies show :/ An example will be intelligence gathering. You need them to collect the specific information required, or at least be able to trust them to collect anything and everything of value. They have to be in the know. To illustrate this point, I was a scout during my national service. Highly likely to be caught and tortured for information. However, I still get briefed on the battalion's plan. Why shouldn't they just give me the minimum information required for the mission? The big reason is that you might not be in communications with higher command during a mission, in that case, if anything unexpected happens or a target of opportunity presents itself, you are expected to make a call that will most benefit the higher objective. I would expect such demands on a black op to be much much higher.
Why would you give the most advanced technology to a person who is half expected to be captured at some point anyway?
Well, you don't really want them do get caught do you? Besides, with technologies comes advanced capabilities. I'm sure the first sets of nightvision equipment went to the black ops, so they can conduct their missions when no one expects it to be possible.
Why wouldn't the official and famous spec ops be good enough for whatever mission that would require more firepower (say taking out NK / Iranian nuclear plants)? Just because you've heard the abbreviation doesn't exactly mean that you can look up their employee list on google. They're pretty secret about themselves too you know.
I guess so. But having a secret unit with secret capabilities opens up your options and gives it a much greater chance of success. You can't defend against what you don't think is possible.
Experimental training techniquies? What does that even mean? Like a hulk virus to turn themselves into monsters when angry? Taikwando? Why would you not want the best training for other, regular, spec ops, but save it for the secret ones? I don't get why secret would mean good.
I guess I was wrong lol. I meant training with their advanced technologies.
I assume you're thinking of some kind of James Bond character, with a car that can shoot fire and always finds away out of a tough spot thanks to his brilliant intellect and a hot lady. And with the added bonus that he doesn't work for the well known MI6, but for some kind of secret laboratory based group that resembles the 'Fringe' TV series. On top of that he's also a nationalistic fanatic. We're basically looking at Batman hired by the government here. Gosh this feels like I'm discussing religion ^_^
Some of you guys might like this forum. Though I wouldn't go posting stupid threads like this there. They'll assume you are just some teenaged call of duty obsessed kid and ignore you. Many of the members are vets. I've browsed the forum since it's creation and there are some pretty unique dudes there that weren't just regular joes, Marines or Rangers.
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
the k9 units are the most elite, because they're certainly the cutest! Also, I think that the pilots of the more advanced aircraft for the US are more elite in their recruitment (or at least comparable) to special forces, and a stealth chopper would make short work of any special forces unit that didn't know it was coming.. (if we're going to take equipment into consideration lol)
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
For anyone saying SAS I would say that Selous Scouts (that I mentioned on page 7) were more hardcore. Ok they dont exist anymore and I guess noone has ever heard of them. Okay just operating in a rather small country and its neighbours during just a few years takes down a bit of their impact.
On December 03 2011 04:31 Endymion wrote: the k9 units are the most elite, because they're certainly the cutest! Also, I think that the pilots of the more advanced aircraft for the US are more elite in their recruitment (or at least comparable) to special forces, and a stealth chopper would make short work of any special forces unit that didn't know it was coming.. (if we're going to take equipment into consideration lol)
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
Waffen-SS might from the beginning had been able to fit the definition of a special forces unit, it was certainly not a special forces unit during their last years. That is of course counting out LSSAH. If we are talking Germany during WWII would place me vote on Brandenburg unit.
Just recently watched the Korean movie Silmido - if the actual training was anything like that of the movie, I'd have to say Unit 684 was pretty elite - small group, kept top secret, one single mission, brutal training that killed a number of recruits.
On December 03 2011 05:55 jubil wrote: Just recently watched the Korean movie Silmido - if the actual training was anything like that of the movie, I'd have to say Unit 684 was pretty elite - small group, kept top secret, one single mission, brutal training that killed a number of recruits.
There was delta, then there was seal six, then there was the devgru. Of course all are still around and operating but the whole idea of black ops is that they are black. As in you dont know about it. Thats why these new groups pop up then fade out. So the most elite group is the one none of us have ever heard of. But thats the point.
On December 03 2011 04:31 Endymion wrote: the k9 units are the most elite, because they're certainly the cutest! Also, I think that the pilots of the more advanced aircraft for the US are more elite in their recruitment (or at least comparable) to special forces, and a stealth chopper would make short work of any special forces unit that didn't know it was coming.. (if we're going to take equipment into consideration lol)
Special forces units have their entire intelligence agencies backing them (as do fighter pilots). I mean, the special forces unit might aswell assault the actual base of the fighter pilot and his plane, if they had that info and were at war.
The original poster wanted to know what the most "Elite" unit is.... this is a very subjective question. As an ex-Special Forces guy, the answers that I've read here really bug me. First of all, the term "Special Forces" in the USA refers specifically to the Army UNIT that is called Special Forces Group who are also known as the Green Berets. Special Forces, along with the Navy SEALs, Army Rangers and 160th SOAR, Air Force CCTs and Para Rescue all belong to USSOCOM -- or Special Operations NOT Special Forces!
Regarding who's the best, again, very subjective as each specializes in different operations. The ones who get the most press aren't necessarily the best by any means, they just promote themselves the most (which goes against what Spec Ops is all about). The Special Forces Group has the most diverse training and mission than any of the other US Spec Ops guys... look at what a couple of teams of SF guys did in Afganistan way back when... they coordinated/advised the "Northern Alliance" and led them to a remarkably quick victory over the Taliban... a feat like that requires big time skills across MANY military disciplines. Delta and Devgru are hands down the best for hostage and CT missions -- DEVGRU's been getting all of the publicity, but I think the Delta boys are just better at keeping their mouths shut about what they are doing. There's no way of outsiders actually knowing who's better. Let's put it this way..if I was being held hostage by some dirtball group of radicals, I would be equally comfortable with whichever group was sent to nab my nasty ass!
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Just a little note here, as some history seems needed. The nazi paratroopers had at the time the most well trained men in the world. They used hang gliders to silently land in a French artillery base and basically shut it all down in no time. However I don't think they'd be considered anything special by todays standard. And neither would the spetznaz probably.
I dunno man i just watched Weaponlogy for Spetznas and they seems pretty ridiculous, they tortured during training to test mental strength and can make a shovel look damn scary, lets not forgot part of there K47 training is to use its arm strap to secure people as human shield..
On December 03 2011 05:55 jubil wrote: Just recently watched the Korean movie Silmido - if the actual training was anything like that of the movie, I'd have to say Unit 684 was pretty elite - small group, kept top secret, one single mission, brutal training that killed a number of recruits.
They can't be top secret if you just watched a movie about them. ^^
Most people have chosen their own country, so I will too. No one has said a damn thing about all the Canadian units working across the world. They are heavily trained and operate everywhere. You dont hear much about them at all. I did hear a story of some of the work they did disposing of bomb makers in Afghanistan.
the most elite and deadliest special forces would be one that you have never heard of. I highly doubt the US govt lets the general public know about its most elite special forces groups.
Similar to the term "the best criminals are the ones you've never heard of."
On December 03 2011 09:37 Phtes wrote: I dunno man i just watched Weaponlogy for Spetznas and they seems pretty ridiculous, they tortured during training to test mental strength and can make a shovel look damn scary, lets not forgot part of there K47 training is to use its arm strap to secure people as human shield..
I vote Spetznas
Bleh, I saw that. The human shield thing looks cool, but unless you already have the guy under control it's not going to work. Those guys are intense, not trying to doubt them at all, but I would have no fear of this particular tactic.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
Wasn't the falklands primarily a naval conflict, with the air control being fought over? I didn't realize there was much actual infantry combat. And I may be biased because I'm in the US, but I thought that SAS operated mainly in civil terrorism rather than in war (come to think of it, same with the seals, they seem to only get credit for non military targets). I think we all have far too little information to actually make a decision, besides saying that k9 is the best.
Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world..
The UK has been in some kind of conflict since the 80's Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Northern Ireland, Falklands infact I think the SAS should have seen action often in the last 50 years or so. Probably since their founding in 1950.
On December 03 2011 07:12 asspadtycoon wrote: The original poster wanted to know what the most "Elite" unit is.... this is a very subjective question. As an ex-Special Forces guy, the answers that I've read here really bug me. First of all, the term "Special Forces" in the USA refers specifically to the Army UNIT that is called Special Forces Group who are also known as the Green Berets. Special Forces, along with the Navy SEALs, Army Rangers and 160th SOAR, Air Force CCTs and Para Rescue all belong to USSOCOM -- or Special Operations NOT Special Forces!
Regarding who's the best, again, very subjective as each specializes in different operations. The ones who get the most press aren't necessarily the best by any means, they just promote themselves the most (which goes against what Spec Ops is all about). The Special Forces Group has the most diverse training and mission than any of the other US Spec Ops guys... look at what a couple of teams of SF guys did in Afganistan way back when... they coordinated/advised the "Northern Alliance" and led them to a remarkably quick victory over the Taliban... a feat like that requires big time skills across MANY military disciplines. Delta and Devgru are hands down the best for hostage and CT missions -- DEVGRU's been getting all of the publicity, but I think the Delta boys are just better at keeping their mouths shut about what they are doing. There's no way of outsiders actually knowing who's better. Let's put it this way..if I was being held hostage by some dirtball group of radicals, I would be equally comfortable with whichever group was sent to nab my nasty ass!
what he said. each group is different with a different focus/mission tasking. if you really want to know which force is the best then ask which is the best for "x" mission or in "y" environment. all have rigorous training regimens, high dropout rates, good funding, and sharp focus. in war there is no best, no first and second, only dead and alive.
But if it would have to be a real organization then i would probably go with the SAS , they have the same level of training as the SEALS , but in addition to that they are also trained by MI-5 and MI-6 for in-depth counter-espionage, which the SEALS lack .
I wonder to what extent elitism in a special force confers only lethality. I imagine that today's special forces could look for other skillsl ike such as infiltration, lethatlity while considering collateral damage, bomb defusal, hostage rescue, etc.....
I'm interested in this topic too. There are more than one type of special forces units too. Some are infiltrate and take out key targets, which is the 'classic' example. Others are first-in units like reconnasaince marines and there are of course multi-purpose units such as the SAS.
In terms of who has the best, its probably the SEALS or British SAS. Based on reputation the Australian SAS are extremely good too but I'm biased on that so take it for what its worth.
Edit: And who knows, the best unit in the world is probably the one none of us have heard of o.O
Edit 2: Guys, guys, I just had an epiphany. The best special forces unit in the world are the Terran ghosts. They have special powers.
SAS & SEALs, my bias would give it to the Seals, but thats because I fear it's quite a stand off. I wouldn't doubt the SAS have more field experience, but I think the technology definitely goes to the U.S.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
On November 27 2011 21:22 gwaihir wrote: Navy seals and SF are a joke compared to most ....yes get over it americans.... best is probaly the british SAS, followed by german KSK and russian speznaz
No you are wrong.
Many of the teams are not comparable to SAS but SEAL team 6 and BUDS for example are among worlds finest SpecOps.
Do not think KSK is considered in the same league as SAS and Spetznaz mate.
Well the GSG9 won in the years 2005 and 2006 international comparission competitions (the Original SWAT World Challenge (OSWC) in the USA)
And the SEK of Baden-Württemberg won the international Combat Team Conference, which is known as the inofficial worldchampionship of police and military special forces, this year and defended it's title as the worldchampions from the year 2007.
Don't really know what the KSK have accomplished and I'm too lazy to look it up
GSG9 are good
they rape everybody (not military)
I think the GSG9 is specialised on antiterror missions and so on while the KSK is there for warmissions.
thats correct but KSK is also trained in everything GSG9 does, that means anti terror too that means they are even better. but they never participate in such competions where GSG9 wins vs everybody, because KSK is really a top secret unit, thats why they will never show up.
1961 – 1989: The Cold War 1993: European Commission Monitor Mission 1995: United Nation Protection Mission (UNPROFOR) 1996: Implementation Force (IFOR) 1996 – 1997: Allied Military Intelligence Battalion (AMIB) 1997: Stabilisation Force (SFOR) 1997 – 2000: Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force (CJSOTF), Sarajevo 1999 – 2000: Kosovo Force (KFOR) 2002: Operation ENDURING FREEDOM (OEF) 2003: Operation IRAQI FREEDOM (OIF) 2003: Force Protection – Irak 2004: Protection Team – Bagdad 2005: Force Protection – Kosovo 2005: Humanitær indsats – Sri Lanka 2005: Protection Team – NATO Training Mission 2006: Protection Team – Basra
I think that they can't post their newer missions, and the reason might be because it could pose as a security threat to themselves, I don't know though. But I am pretty sure.
HAHAHAHHA, SAS by far best in world because cool uniforms and badass weapons, owned!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 I've played them in COD and Counterstrike so i know WHAT I'm TALKING ABOUT !!!!!111 And I'M BRITISH THAT STRENGTHENS MY ARgument even MOAR, pwned n00b i'm out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
On December 03 2011 05:55 jubil wrote: Just recently watched the Korean movie Silmido - if the actual training was anything like that of the movie, I'd have to say Unit 684 was pretty elite - small group, kept top secret, one single mission, brutal training that killed a number of recruits.
They can't be top secret if you just watched a movie about them. ^^
I think comprehensively JSOC would be the best because they have so many groups/resources to draw on: DEVGRU, 1st SFOD-D, PJs, SF, Rangers, SOAR, so they could assembly specialized teams/equipment for the mission requirements.
But small group CT action would probably go to JTF2, GSG9, SAS, or SAD/SOG.
If only based on DA missions I'd personally rank DEVGRU, 1st SFOD-D, SAS, JTF2, KSK all the same since they cross train all the time and would probably produce the same results on the same targets.
Note: Mossad is not a SpecOps group, it is a foreign intelligence service, like CIA or MI6, I don't remember what their SAD counterpart is called but I'd expect them to be very good as well.
Also most current groups were built on the structure of the SAS so if judging on history SAS would have the best.
This is an even moar cool thread than the one about Aoc wich have been closed for beeing "fluffy". I guess the americans special forces are the best cause you don't joke with those kind of guys, and i heard Rambo and Chuck aren't fluffy :p
On December 03 2011 20:21 z5um wrote: HAHAHAHHA, SAS by far best in world because cool uniforms and badass weapons, owned!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 I've played them in COD and Counterstrike so i know WHAT I'm TALKING ABOUT !!!!!111 And I'M BRITISH THAT STRENGTHENS MY ARgument even MOAR, pwned n00b i'm out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
User was banned for this post.
out you are indeed
i think that the uk has the lead in this from what ive heard but i dont know too much about this whole thing interesting thread nonetheless
I all honestly, I think that it's almost impossible to say.
Don't most of the NATO special forces train together regularly? You would think that it would mean, at least skill-wise, they would be pretty equal. Plus the sharing military knowledge that the US, UK, and other NATO countries means their technology, in general, should be pretty close
Historically, I would agree that the SAS just has the lead, but in modern terms, its going to be close.
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
On December 03 2011 21:33 Bulkers wrote: In Iraq when British or USA special forces could handle the situation they send polish GROM tactical unit nuff said
When they could handle the situation, they sent someone else instead? I don't think 'nuff has been said, I am confused. If you were thinking GROM tactical unit surpasses US joint special operations forces you're wrong based on shear size/funding/technology alone. There's really no way to compare the power/capacity of any special operations wing to that of the US. It's like comparing countries based on who has the biggest aviation sector or movie industry. The US is so absurdly far ahead in terms of size/money involved in these areas that comparisons to similar things in other countries is just sort of absurd
Also in here there is way too much "special forces" being thrown around lol. With regard to the US, that's the term for the guys that specialize in interdisciplinary skills, especially knowing other cultures extremely well. These are the guys who are on the ground training other forces and militias. These are the guys who are out collecting low, mid, and high level Taliban/AQ for interrogation in Afghanistan (along with rangers, SEALs, etc). They do a lot of everything. If you want to refer to the more general idea of all the 'special forces' across the US military you need to call it "special operations forces" because then you aren't restricting it to Special Forces and its multiple groups.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
JTF2 (Joint Task Force 2) Here in Canada can easily be compared to the SAS along with any other special forces unit. We don't have a large military but our regular forces are better trained than most, and our special forces (JTF2) are just crazy. Not saying they're better because none of us can truly make any comparisons, but we've been fighting in conflicts since the world wars, and any special forces unit that's worked with JTF2 respects the hell out of them.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
Small nations can still have great elite forces because that is why they are elite forces. They do not necessarily correlate with the general army size of a country or military budget because usually elite forces of any kind are well-funded; Sweden and Denmark come to mind here especially. Discrediting a country's special forces because, again, the army of said country is not actively engaging in wars is silly. Why? In the case of Germany, while the Bundeswehr tries to stay out of combat, the KSK do engage in combat and carry out missions alone or with with other special forces, e.g. in Afghanistan.
With that said, personally I would rate the SAS higher than the KSK. After all, the KSK was founded relatively late in 1996, is modeled after the SAS and Delta Force, has less experience in general and I would hazard the guess that the SAS has the better equipment.
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
US forces arrived in the European theater in mid-1942, which was about half-way through the war. In any event, US forces were deeply involved in the North African, Italian, and French-German theaters. If the US had entered the war so late that it had only fought a few battles, then it might be a bad example; however, despite the relatively late entry, US forces fought many battles against the Wermacht and the Waffen-SS. They won pretty much all of them. This, combined with the fact that the Wermacht and SS were completely demolished by the Soviets, leads me to conclude that the Waffen-SS probably don't belong in the ranks of the most elite special forces.
On December 03 2011 21:45 nymfaw wrote:
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
That might explain why the Nazis lost the war in general, but not why they lost so many battles so consistently. If you look at the actual combat performance of the German military (including its elite Waffen-SS units), you'll see that while in general they fought well and scored some impressive early successes, they were ultimately out-fought on any number of occasions by US, British, and Soviet forces. The "superior German soldiers undermined by their stupid leadership" thesis is actually a myth.
As for the Nazi paratroops mentioned in another post, they performed a key mission in overrunning the Belgian defenses in the opening moments of the German 1940 offensive, but then got butchered attacking British forces on Crete in 1941. So again, they might not really be amongst the "most elite" SOF of history.
On December 03 2011 10:52 DarkShadowz wrote: I don't see how ANYONE can be compared to SAS. If someone can give me some good reasons why I would be interested in it.
I'm biased but I agree with this.
First off, no small or poor nation can have the best elite forces, as they don't have the most current technology and adequate funding. Second, no militarily inactive nation can have the best elite forces, because they won't have seen frequent and varied activity (I'm looking at you Germany). By these criteria there are only a few nations left and really only two stand out: the UK and the US. Russia has actually been relatively inactive, and France has taken part in predominantly African conflicts offering a much narrower field of experience. Of the UK and the US, it would seem intuitively correct that the US has seen more activity, but I'm not sure if that's true. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't. Many of the UK SAS have served in the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Africa and the Middle East. It might also seem sensible to think the US forces are better funded, but the UK defence spending is biased towards improving their special forces and is still one of the biggest budgets in the world. Finally if you take history into account, the achievements of the SAS pretty much dwarf those of any other unit, particularly with all the new information about WW2 being revealed.
Sections of Spetz served in Chechnya almost routinely. Pretty rough there.
Best trained is a throw up though. For instance, Green Berets are adapted for supporting insurgencies, guerilla warfare, things like that, SEALS are for offensive "stealth" insertion, Delta Force is counterterrorism/counter insurgency, not to mention groups like the Frogmen (SEALS/SBS), GSG9 (more or less US's Delta), SAS (basically SEALS, Berets and Delta combined), GIGN. Add groups like the Foreign Legion and the US Rangers (paratroops) and it gets much harder.
Really hard to pick just one as the best because of the different training and technology that goes into separate organizations. In a rush I'd pick Spetz or SAS though. They're trained to do virtually anything while SOCOM forces are pretty damn specialized, though very good at what they're trained to do.
Heh, i don't think Finnish combat divers really belong in here, but they are interesting nevertheless. One of my favourite documentaries is this one. It's about combat diver training in Finland. Keep in mind that those guys are not professional soldiers(and thus do not get paid any meaningful money), but they do their military service this way instead. The physical requirements are surprisingly tough even if you compare them to BUDs or whatever the seal training program is called.
Its all well and nice that each country has elite forces that could probably take down a small country by themselves. But in a terrorist situation if I had a choice of who was gonna pluck me out of a hostage situation I would pick the SAS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. And thats really what seperates the SAS from alot of these other special forces, they have a proven track record in these things and can actually think before they kill. Whereas spetsnaz might all be supersoldiers but they are also butchers and fuck up everything they touch.
Today I watched some Surviving the cut by Discovery chanel and I think that SEALS and Rangers got the hardest training. but they are all really similarly. Ofc I understand that paramedics / snipers / airforce... must know more than rangers. but its just my opinion.
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
US forces arrived in the European theater in mid-1942, which was about half-way through the war. In any event, US forces were deeply involved in the North African, Italian, and French-German theaters. If the US had entered the war so late that it had only fought a few battles, then it might be a bad example; however, despite the relatively late entry, US forces fought many battles against the Wermacht and the Waffen-SS. They won pretty much all of them. This, combined with the fact that the Wermacht and SS were completely demolished by the Soviets, leads me to conclude that the Waffen-SS probably don't belong in the ranks of the most elite special forces.
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
That might explain why the Nazis lost the war in general, but not why they lost so many battles so consistently. If you look at the actual combat performance of the German military (including its elite Waffen-SS units), you'll see that while in general they fought well and scored some impressive early successes, they were ultimately out-fought on any number of occasions by US, British, and Soviet forces. The "superior German soldiers undermined by their stupid leadership" thesis is actually a myth.
As for the Nazi paratroops mentioned in another post, they performed a key mission in overrunning the Belgian defenses in the opening moments of the German 1940 offensive, but then got butchered attacking British forces on Crete in 1941. So again, they might not really be amongst the "most elite" SOF of history.
The Wehrmacht hardly fought the US in any battles that were even remotely fair in terms of numbers and didnt use their most highly trained soldiers in the west . They actually lost the war on the eastern front, once again severely outnumbered in terms of anything just look at the battle of kursk for example.
The Wehrmacht certainly wasnt able to perform miracles and didnt actually have superior equipment in meaningful numbers generally speaking but judging the individual ability of soldiers by the outcome of battles that were decided before they were even fought on numbers alone seems silly to me.
The battle of Crete was an operation that would claim a lot of casualties by nature and ended in allied defeat with significantly higher casualties on the allied side.
The actual combat effectiveness of individual soldiers was btw higher for the Wehrmacht compared to the allies this is regarded as fact by experts as far as I'm aware if you have sources for your opinion I'd be very interested.
Note that I have no interest in seeing Wehrmacht soldiers as more effective or symphaties for the Third Reich, this is simply what I've heard.
The real myth is that Germany could have won the war if this or that happened imo.
Pretty hard to choose since there are different ways of choosing. I would go with either the Navy Seals, Delta Force, or SAS but I'm bias since you usually play either in FPS games =P
US airforce pararescue is pretty bad ass....i mean the whole premise of their job is to jump into volatile hostile territory and restore order...imagine the pressure you're under. Here's more to read about them if anyones interested
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
US forces arrived in the European theater in mid-1942, which was about half-way through the war. In any event, US forces were deeply involved in the North African, Italian, and French-German theaters. If the US had entered the war so late that it had only fought a few battles, then it might be a bad example; however, despite the relatively late entry, US forces fought many battles against the Wermacht and the Waffen-SS. They won pretty much all of them. This, combined with the fact that the Wermacht and SS were completely demolished by the Soviets, leads me to conclude that the Waffen-SS probably don't belong in the ranks of the most elite special forces.
On December 03 2011 21:45 nymfaw wrote:
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
That might explain why the Nazis lost the war in general, but not why they lost so many battles so consistently. If you look at the actual combat performance of the German military (including its elite Waffen-SS units), you'll see that while in general they fought well and scored some impressive early successes, they were ultimately out-fought on any number of occasions by US, British, and Soviet forces. The "superior German soldiers undermined by their stupid leadership" thesis is actually a myth.
As for the Nazi paratroops mentioned in another post, they performed a key mission in overrunning the Belgian defenses in the opening moments of the German 1940 offensive, but then got butchered attacking British forces on Crete in 1941. So again, they might not really be amongst the "most elite" SOF of history.
The Wehrmacht hardly fought the US in any battles that were even remotely fair in terms of numbers and didnt use their most highly trained soldiers in the west . They actually lost the war on the eastern front, once again severely outnumbered in terms of anything just look at the battle of kursk for example.
The Wehrmacht certainly wasnt able to perform miracles and didnt actually have superior equipment in meaningful numbers generally speaking but judging the individual ability of soldiers by the outcome of battles that were decided before they were even fought on numbers alone seems silly to me.
The battle of Crete was an operation that would claim a lot of casualties by nature and ended in allied defeat with significantly higher casualties on the allied side.
The actual combat effectiveness of individual soldiers was btw higher for the Wehrmacht compared to the allies this is regarded as fact by experts as far as I'm aware if you have sources for your opinion I'd be very interested.
Note that I have no interest in seeing Wehrmacht soldiers as more effective or symphaties for the Third Reich, this is simply what I've heard.
The real myth is that Germany could have won the war if this or that happened imo.
I accept the fact that the Germans were pretty heavily outnumbered overall (though I'd note that the fact that they were so outnumbered in the East was in part due to the fact that millions of German soldiers were tied down in the West and South dealing with the Western allies - the Soviets did their part in the war, but so did the US and Britain), and that their numerical inferiority was a significant factor in their ultimate defeat.
Since the purpose of soldiers is to win battles, however, I'm not sure how the "actual combat effectiveness" of individual soldiers can really be measured outside of their results in combat. And expert testimony aside, the indisputable historical fact is that the Germans got their asses handed to them time and again by both the Soviets and the Western Allies. They weren't just outnumbered, either - even in instances where they achieved localized superiority of arms (opening phases of the Kursk Offensive or the 1944 Christmas Ardennes Offensive, for example) they were unable to achieve significant results. This is especially telling compared to their earlier performance, in which the German ability to achieve localized operational superiority over their opponents led to significant operational successes (for example, the 1940 Ardennes Offensive into France or the 1941 Commencement of Operation Barbarossa). This suggests that, at least by 1943/1944, German forces were being actively out-fought by the Allies in both the East and West at an operational level.
So, while I recognize that the Allies' vast superiority in terms of resources was a key component of their success against Germany, I also have to wonder how one can maintain that the combat effectiveness of German soldiers was actually higher than that of the Allies.
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
US forces arrived in the European theater in mid-1942, which was about half-way through the war. In any event, US forces were deeply involved in the North African, Italian, and French-German theaters. If the US had entered the war so late that it had only fought a few battles, then it might be a bad example; however, despite the relatively late entry, US forces fought many battles against the Wermacht and the Waffen-SS. They won pretty much all of them. This, combined with the fact that the Wermacht and SS were completely demolished by the Soviets, leads me to conclude that the Waffen-SS probably don't belong in the ranks of the most elite special forces.
On December 03 2011 21:45 nymfaw wrote:
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
That might explain why the Nazis lost the war in general, but not why they lost so many battles so consistently. If you look at the actual combat performance of the German military (including its elite Waffen-SS units), you'll see that while in general they fought well and scored some impressive early successes, they were ultimately out-fought on any number of occasions by US, British, and Soviet forces. The "superior German soldiers undermined by their stupid leadership" thesis is actually a myth.
As for the Nazi paratroops mentioned in another post, they performed a key mission in overrunning the Belgian defenses in the opening moments of the German 1940 offensive, but then got butchered attacking British forces on Crete in 1941. So again, they might not really be amongst the "most elite" SOF of history.
The Wehrmacht hardly fought the US in any battles that were even remotely fair in terms of numbers and didnt use their most highly trained soldiers in the west . They actually lost the war on the eastern front, once again severely outnumbered in terms of anything just look at the battle of kursk for example.
The Wehrmacht certainly wasnt able to perform miracles and didnt actually have superior equipment in meaningful numbers generally speaking but judging the individual ability of soldiers by the outcome of battles that were decided before they were even fought on numbers alone seems silly to me.
The battle of Crete was an operation that would claim a lot of casualties by nature and ended in allied defeat with significantly higher casualties on the allied side.
The actual combat effectiveness of individual soldiers was btw higher for the Wehrmacht compared to the allies this is regarded as fact by experts as far as I'm aware if you have sources for your opinion I'd be very interested.
Note that I have no interest in seeing Wehrmacht soldiers as more effective or symphaties for the Third Reich, this is simply what I've heard.
The real myth is that Germany could have won the war if this or that happened imo.
So, while I recognize that the Allies' vast superiority in terms of resources was a key component of their success against Germany, I also have to wonder how one can maintain that the combat effectiveness of German soldiers was actually higher than that of the Allies.
German Force called Kommando Spezial Kräfte.... but is pretty secret.. you will have no family, friends, whatsoever when you join them ...these guys were assisting us and uk troops in Irak .. marking targets, setting up assasinations... allthough germany didnt had any official part in these donflicts at the beginning....
and the german fightingdivers... insane trainingsmethods
On December 02 2011 06:43 Somaht wrote: British SAS/ German KSK > Russian Speznas > American Seals
Waffen-SS > .. (if you also include the last century)
You realize the Nazis lost the war, right? After the Battle of Kaiserine Pass in 1942 (the first battle between the US Army and the Wermacht), the US Army won literally every battle against the Nazis. SS is massively overrated.
Since the Americans joined the war pretty late, maybe you should've used another example, but this isn't the right thread for this disscussion anyway.
US forces arrived in the European theater in mid-1942, which was about half-way through the war. In any event, US forces were deeply involved in the North African, Italian, and French-German theaters. If the US had entered the war so late that it had only fought a few battles, then it might be a bad example; however, despite the relatively late entry, US forces fought many battles against the Wermacht and the Waffen-SS. They won pretty much all of them. This, combined with the fact that the Wermacht and SS were completely demolished by the Soviets, leads me to conclude that the Waffen-SS probably don't belong in the ranks of the most elite special forces.
On December 03 2011 21:45 nymfaw wrote:
Try fighting a 2 front war with a really stupid and stubborn leader. it was all about stalingrad, thats where the war was lost
That might explain why the Nazis lost the war in general, but not why they lost so many battles so consistently. If you look at the actual combat performance of the German military (including its elite Waffen-SS units), you'll see that while in general they fought well and scored some impressive early successes, they were ultimately out-fought on any number of occasions by US, British, and Soviet forces. The "superior German soldiers undermined by their stupid leadership" thesis is actually a myth.
As for the Nazi paratroops mentioned in another post, they performed a key mission in overrunning the Belgian defenses in the opening moments of the German 1940 offensive, but then got butchered attacking British forces on Crete in 1941. So again, they might not really be amongst the "most elite" SOF of history.
The Wehrmacht hardly fought the US in any battles that were even remotely fair in terms of numbers and didnt use their most highly trained soldiers in the west . They actually lost the war on the eastern front, once again severely outnumbered in terms of anything just look at the battle of kursk for example.
The Wehrmacht certainly wasnt able to perform miracles and didnt actually have superior equipment in meaningful numbers generally speaking but judging the individual ability of soldiers by the outcome of battles that were decided before they were even fought on numbers alone seems silly to me.
The battle of Crete was an operation that would claim a lot of casualties by nature and ended in allied defeat with significantly higher casualties on the allied side.
The actual combat effectiveness of individual soldiers was btw higher for the Wehrmacht compared to the allies this is regarded as fact by experts as far as I'm aware if you have sources for your opinion I'd be very interested.
Note that I have no interest in seeing Wehrmacht soldiers as more effective or symphaties for the Third Reich, this is simply what I've heard.
The real myth is that Germany could have won the war if this or that happened imo.
So, while I recognize that the Allies' vast superiority in terms of resources was a key component of their success against Germany, I also have to wonder how one can maintain that the combat effectiveness of German soldiers was actually higher than that of the Allies.
Numbers and the opinion of experts I guess.
On the numbers issue - I already listed four examples where, although the German army may have been outnumbered in absolute terms, they managed to achieve localized operational superiority in numbers. In the first two cases (France 1940 and Russia 1941), that superiority proved decisive; in the second two cases (Kursk 1943 and Ardennes 1944), despite achieving initial localized superiority, the Germans were unable to prevail. Just comparing total numbers of soldiers doesn't really tell you anything; you have to look more closely at how they were actually employed.
As for expert opinion, point me to them. You can't justify an argument by appealing to "experts" and then not naming any.
i dont think we will ever know. i mean what is the benchmark to say that one is better than the other? and anyway, most if not all special forces units are top secret, meaning we won't ever get the chance to dissect them to put them on the benchmark anyways.
On November 29 2011 01:29 Hoon wrote: For everyone saying that BOPE has balls to get into the favelas and shit, don't get trolled by the news and a fancy movie.
What happens here in Brazil is the following: They warn everyone that they will get into the favelas and clean it up 1+ weeks beforehand The important people (traffic bosses and stuff) go away to hide somewhere else, leaving only the regular citizens and drug users there. They go up the hill with the support of the Army and Navy and a bunch of tanks against no resistance at all, collecting w/e they find.
Basically, it's the government advertising and trying to buy more votes, while keeping Brazil's good image out there.
There is absolutely NO RISK for the people involved in those operations.
BOPE is just a regular special force like any other with a cool movie to back its name, just like SWAT.
That only happened in the major occupations when they drove the drug dealers out of the favelas.
Usually BOPE just does smash and grab operations, or hostage rescues, or drug aprehensions, but the favelas were left alone and new drug dealers appeared, in these opperations bigtime bosses were executed, and the politicians didnt like it at all because they are all on the payroll
So now whenver theres an operation they announce it before hand so the bandits can run
On November 28 2011 02:16 Stress wrote: As a person from the USA I'm inclined to lean towards Seal Team 6 because they use hand picked members from all the other Seal Teams. On the other hand, I have seen footage of how the Spetsnaz train and it is insane. I also like how they handle their business(see Moscow theater hostage crisis).
You mean the crisis where they managed to kill 120 out of the 800 hostages themselves?
Anyway, people are way to biased here. This thread is summed up by hearsay and propaganda.
On November 28 2011 02:16 Stress wrote: As a person from the USA I'm inclined to lean towards Seal Team 6 because they use hand picked members from all the other Seal Teams. On the other hand, I have seen footage of how the Spetsnaz train and it is insane. I also like how they handle their business(see Moscow theater hostage crisis).
You mean the crisis where they managed to kill 120 out of the 800 hostages themselves?
Anyway, people are way to biased here. This thread is summed up by hearsay and propaganda.
There's actually a lot of solid info in this thread that people can use as a jumping point for finding out more about certain groups. That's kinda why I made it - it says in the OP that it's going to be mostly about opinion; unless of course a SpecOps member has anything concrete to offer after finding this thread between cracking out on SC2 and TL
On the numbers issue - I already listed four examples where, although the German army may have been outnumbered in absolute terms, they managed to achieve localized operational superiority in numbers. In the first two cases (France 1940 and Russia 1941), that superiority proved decisive; in the second two cases (Kursk 1943 and Ardennes 1944), despite achieving initial localized superiority, the Germans were unable to prevail. Just comparing total numbers of soldiers doesn't really tell you anything; you have to look more closely at how they were actually employed.
As for expert opinion, point me to them. You can't justify an argument by appealing to "experts" and then not naming any.
kind of off topic but i think you underestimate the fact that being in active war against almost the whole world is kind of suicide.
when the us actually engaded in fighting with the german army, most of its best soldiers already died on the east front vs the ussr ( they won the war vs nazi germany much more then the us did, and paid with over 20million casulties show them some more respect ), and the massive bombing of german cities and production left the army in shambles. the few and bad supplied tropps the us army fought indeed were no match for them.
here is a little link just to show you how ridicilous outnumberd the germans where:
Ever hear of South African special forces, extremely tough to get into, only 48 people out of every 1000000 actually pass,just the entry tests are ludicrous. For example selection involves 7 days in bush performing maneuvers and drills no eating, no sleeping, no water, officers using live ammo, live mines ect. And still have wild animals, eg lions an cheatas ect to worry about. Once they pass this there's still training ect. Operations are just as bad, my uncle lived about 15m outside an enemy base for 3months enemy never knew he was there. Because South Africa does not technology as advanced as rest of the world everything is up to the soldiers, the often just have to run, the get dropped at the boarder and for days they just run day after day to get to their destinations. And then have no support from the rest of the army until they out again. They also have a little competition, every person they kill they cut a ear off and they make necklaces with these ears. Heavy stuff, they called the Recce's
On March 24 2012 07:48 cnorris wrote: Ever hear of South African special forces, extremely tough to get into, only 48 people out of every 1000000 actually pass,just the entry tests are ludicrous. For example selection involves 7 days in bush performing maneuvers and drills no eating, no sleeping, no water, officers using live ammo, live mines ect. And still have wild animals, eg lions an cheatas ect to worry about. Once they pass this there's still training ect. Operations are just as bad, my uncle lived about 15m outside an enemy base for 3months enemy never knew he was there. Because South Africa does not technology as advanced as rest of the world everything is up to the soldiers, the often just have to run, the get dropped at the boarder and for days they just run day after day to get to their destinations. And then have no support from the rest of the army until they out again. They also have a little competition, every person they kill they cut a ear off and they make necklaces with these ears. Heavy stuff, they called the Recce's
If the cutting of an ear part is true, this is mos def the most bad ass squad in the world!
The US should have the best due to being the most consistently active in modern warfare, the best of everything in kit/technology and if all else fails the most dangerous war machine in the world to back them up. Massive military to draw the best possible recruits from etc.
Even amongst the masses of McD munching fatasses I see in their uniform, there has to be some super bad ass rambo motherfuckers doing crazy shit behind the scenes.
On March 24 2012 07:48 cnorris wrote: Ever hear of South African special forces, extremely tough to get into, only 48 people out of every 1000000 actually pass,just the entry tests are ludicrous. For example selection involves 7 days in bush performing maneuvers and drills no eating, no sleeping, no water, officers using live ammo, live mines ect. And still have wild animals, eg lions an cheatas ect to worry about. Once they pass this there's still training ect. Operations are just as bad, my uncle lived about 15m outside an enemy base for 3months enemy never knew he was there. Because South Africa does not technology as advanced as rest of the world everything is up to the soldiers, the often just have to run, the get dropped at the boarder and for days they just run day after day to get to their destinations. And then have no support from the rest of the army until they out again. They also have a little competition, every person they kill they cut a ear off and they make necklaces with these ears. Heavy stuff, they called the Recce's
If the cutting of an ear part is true, this is mos def the most bad ass squad in the world!
Not really badass, more like sick in the head, isn't collecting 'trophies' from your enemy in battle a war crime? I was just reading about Tiger Force, a US task force that fought in Vietnam. They cut off their enemies ears and scalps during the war as well as a lot of other fucked up shit, wouldn't call it badass.
Also I'm pretty sure cnorris is exaggerating a bit.. esspecially if his uncle was in the SA special forces. 7 days of no eating, no sleeping and no water? I'm pretty sure you'd die and if not your body would be way too weak to do any kind of training.
On December 12 2011 11:04 arthurrr157 wrote: The ones you don't know about
^ This
On March 24 2012 08:00 scaban84 wrote: No national armed force is the most elite. The most elite would have to be a private military company like Blackwater and DynCorp.
I've met someone from Blackwater... scary sob, but I don't think they're the most elite, but definitely the highest trained assassins.
EPT
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