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[Q] HOTS - warhound aoe VS mutalisks - Page 5

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Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 07 2011 18:53 GMT
#81
On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.


So then it can't counter mutas, just like the archon? It should be a least the size of the thors.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
November 07 2011 19:18 GMT
#82
Okay come on the archon has the largest splash range in the game. a radius of 1. that is 1 supply depoy of radius. so get a 2x2 box of supply depots, and almost all of that will be covered by damage.
Qntc.YuMe
Profile Joined January 2011
United States792 Posts
November 07 2011 19:21 GMT
#83
On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.


Archons splash radius is bigger than thors.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
November 07 2011 19:24 GMT
#84
On October 27 2011 02:54 Amazements wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.



Nope, the two attacks are separate; the ground attack does 10 +10 to mech, rather than being a passive ability that increases damage to mech.

So it's basically like a non-bio Marauder that pops from the factory and can hit air?

Oooook.
Hello
SheffiTB
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada223 Posts
November 07 2011 19:46 GMT
#85
On November 08 2011 04:24 PH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 02:54 Amazements wrote:
On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.



Nope, the two attacks are separate; the ground attack does 10 +10 to mech, rather than being a passive ability that increases damage to mech.

So it's basically like a non-bio Marauder that pops from the factory and can hit air?

Oooook.

that requires armory, costs more, and doesn't have stim/concussive shells, yes.
Gold level player who watches day9 and loves helping other low level players.
Lurk
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany359 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-07 19:49:53
November 07 2011 19:49 GMT
#86
This is a Warning!
Show nested quote +

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?
WarChimp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia943 Posts
November 07 2011 19:54 GMT
#87
I really hope they change the art for the warhound. It looks rediculous. Cool unit, but the art just lets it down so much.
DaveVAH
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada162 Posts
November 07 2011 19:55 GMT
#88
It has 11 range AA. its a siege type range.

The splash radius is somewhere between .5 to 1.

it is more effective at killing boxed muta's and mutas in general. That is its whole purpose of it TvZ as it stands, beside being another meat-shield for tanks. Perhaps countering broods in low numbers the way thors do atm with BFH and repair support.
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
November 07 2011 20:07 GMT
#89
On November 08 2011 04:55 DaveVAH wrote:
It has 11 range AA. its a siege type range.

The splash radius is somewhere between .5 to 1.

it is more effective at killing boxed muta's and mutas in general. That is its whole purpose of it TvZ as it stands, beside being another meat-shield for tanks. Perhaps countering broods in low numbers the way thors do atm with BFH and repair support.


If it's effective against magic boxed mutas the AoE can't be 0.5, because that's not enough to hit more than the main target.
Thors currently have 0.5 and can hit only one muta.
I'll call Nada.
DaveVAH
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada162 Posts
November 07 2011 21:08 GMT
#90
Ye, its closer to 1 if not 1.
codonbyte
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States840 Posts
December 14 2011 01:30 GMT
#91
On October 27 2011 13:53 SheaR619 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:
On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:
On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming...


Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor.

I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot.


Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups.
Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat.
Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come.


Though, remember that as terran, you don't have to upgrade as many things. So for example Protoss needs to upgrade 3 different ground upgrades for their army, and possibly 2 more if they're going heavy with air vs mech instead of just ground power. Zerg needs to upgrade 3 for their ground and possibly 2 more for their air units. As terran you just get double mech upgrades, and maybe +1 attack for vikings/air.

Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs .

So I guess now you REALLY need vikings and/or ghosts to deal with those BLs. Eff. Oh well I guess me and others have just been spoiled at how flexible Thor/Hellion is (especially after NP range nerf to 7).




Thor were decent again BLs because terran usually had mech upgrade and zerg usually never get any +armor on air so the thor does quiet a bit of damage if he has +2 or even +1. I still dont believe warhound are going to be that bad because dont forget, they are now faster as well so they can get under or closer to the BLs and deal damage. Of course they are squishiers than the thor so they do die faster but I think this is worth trading for speed and quantity. I personally dont see why this unit should get splash for air....it doesnt really make sense lol. It seem that it would be way to strong vs air mutas but i dont know how well magic box will do though. I also dont see why they are range 7 on ground lol, I think range 6 is fine enough. We will have to see :D


Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 13:43 Grumbels wrote:
They should let the warhound shoot like 4 missiles so it can always hit 4 mutas or so. This rewards keeping your mutalisks stacked, instead of having to do micro-less magic boxing.


I like this idea


Well sure, they have less health than a thor, but from what I've seen so far they certainly don't seem squishy. Far from it, in fact. They have 260 HP, which is still quite a lot for a terran unit. It also seems like they are going to be much cheaper than thors, so that 260 HP I think will amount to quite a bit.
Procrastination is the enemy
codonbyte
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States840 Posts
December 14 2011 01:45 GMT
#92
On October 27 2011 16:11 iko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 16:05 Ganseng wrote:
i heard that these things cost 150m/75 g right now. which is really cheap.


That's pretty expensive, the Goliath for comparison was 100/50, although from what I heard the Warhound has an outrageous 240hp.


Yeah. I actually heard that it's like 260. Anyway's, for a unit that costs as much as a viking, that sounds pretty dang beefy. Should be able to fulfill the anti-mech roll pretty well. 260 HP will eat up plenty of colossus shots, and who knows. With that amount of HP and a splash damage anti-air, maybe it will be able to stand up to armored air units (remember that splash gets exponentially better the larger your army sizes).

Personally, I'm pretty excited for the warhound. It will be nice to have a terran unit that doesn't feel so fragile compared to toss units.
Procrastination is the enemy
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
December 14 2011 01:47 GMT
#93
On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:
Show nested quote +
This is a Warning!

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?


lolol mods cant do math.
White-Ra fighting!
jorge_the_awesome
Profile Joined January 2011
United States463 Posts
December 14 2011 01:52 GMT
#94
On December 14 2011 10:47 m3rciless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:
This is a Warning!

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?


lolol mods cant do math.


Wow.
"Clothes are stupid"-Tastosis "Every dragoon that has ever been made is dumber than a bowl of hair" -Day[9] "Where are you going to take this skill now?" Stephano- "To the bank!" "Baby stuck under a car and you can't lift it up? What a wimp"-Artosis
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
December 14 2011 02:13 GMT
#95
I just realised how stupid the tempest is. Why would you get a tempest to deal with mutalisks when you can replicate an infestor, fungal and then storm the muta flock.

If they don't build infestors they can't stop blinks or pheonix and if they do they just killed their mutas. Why get tempest?
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 05:18:46
December 14 2011 05:08 GMT
#96
On October 27 2011 06:22 Eiviyn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 04:51 Alpina wrote:
really? o_O

It always looked like thors have way bigger splash...


Thor deals full damage in 0.5 radius

Archon
Full damage: 0.1 radius (basically single target)
Half damage: 0.4 radius (less than thor)
Quarter damage: 0.8

However the numbers here don't mean much.

Think of damage radii as being circles, and of units as also being circles. A unit is "hit" if the circles overlap, even a tiny bit.

Mutalisks have a radius of 0.5, which means that a Thor's AA will hit any mutalisk that is less than 1 from the impact site. This gives the Thor splash around the same size as a supply depot.


Archon is actually:

Full Damage: 0.25
Half: 0.5
Quarter 1

(Values taken from map editor using latest multiplayer mod/patch)

On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:
Show nested quote +
This is a Warning!

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?


You did say keyword "area" rather than radius which makes the 4x claim true by definition. Increasing the radius from 0.5 to 1 does make it have 4x more area than it was before (the circle is 4x bigger in terms of area).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
poorcloud
Profile Joined April 2011
Singapore2748 Posts
December 14 2011 05:22 GMT
#97
On December 14 2011 10:47 m3rciless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:
This is a Warning!

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?


lolol mods cant do math.


Sometimes it gets too ban/warn/report happy over here.

But i hope that the warhound has the mobility to deal with mutalisks especially if they do not have range. Turrets only do so well till a certain point.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10366 Posts
December 14 2011 05:23 GMT
#98
On December 14 2011 10:52 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 10:47 m3rciless wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:
This is a Warning!

Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?


lolol mods cant do math.


Wow.


Wow mods, come on? I hope they will see this and fix it back ^^

So does anyone know the actual splash? sigh lol...
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10366 Posts
December 14 2011 07:17 GMT
#99
On October 27 2011 18:22 Fluttershy wrote:
>Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs

Thors did like 20 damage per 2 second volley against broodlords if both are unupgraded, definitely not the best use of 300/200/6.

You could probably kill 2 thors and badly hurt a third thor with 1 BL,


but a 1 on 1 situation isn't realistic

and you can deal with BLs with thor/hellion
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 07:34:47
December 14 2011 07:31 GMT
#100
On October 27 2011 11:44 Whitewing wrote:
It's basically a smaller, faster, cheaper, weaker thor. Because it's smaller and cheaper, you can have more of them more easily, and thus they can't be magic boxxed.

Their splash radius is about the same as the thors, so they'll hit clumped mutas hard, but magic box isn't as effective due to just plain having a lot more attacks.


Pretty much this. If people think Thors were good at countering Mutas, then they clearly never played terran. Mutas can often kill the same cost of thors as the mutas with magic box, that's how poorly designed Thors are. This is what the Warhound is intended to fix, along with giving Terran a better "massable" mech unit like the Goliath in BW.

I do agree with the guy that said that Warhound needs a flat anti-air attack, though. Without that, pure mech will NEVER be viable, because you will always have to supplement it with Vikings for anti-air.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
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