[Q] HOTS - warhound aoe VS mutalisks

On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.

On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.

On October 27 2011 02:49 crown77 wrote:
I heard Dustin B. say that the splash is bigger than the thor's was. I'm curious if you can use them in tvp as a goliath. I passionately hated that you like had to make marines in the beginning of tvp if you smelled voidray or even robo units you kind of need marines.

I don't know if it's going to stay this way but I heard in one of those blizzcon videos that david kim said the warhound does extra damage vs mech... and he said that every unit besides the zealot was mech in the protoss army.... im not sure if flying units are counted in that or not but kind of exciting that they want to see more mech in tvp in hots.

On October 27 2011 03:07 SwiftAusterity wrote:
I played a few dozen games (did nothing but queue MP for the entire first day) mostly as Z but the few T matches I played the warhound def. felt like the goliath.

It was costed about what I expected it to be for that purpose. It moved a lot faster than I was initially expecting. I didn't get a chance to play it against any fast or standard muta openings but by costing and stats alone (health, damage) it filled the role pretty well.

Random queueing for sc-mp at blizzcon is a mixed bag. Most of everyone is there for WoW so the quality of players you run into (not that I'm even in Masters or anything) is usually fairly poor so realistic scenarios are not expected.

On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.

On October 27 2011 03:38 Zorgaz wrote:
Any1 has any recording off it shooting It's AA attack?!

Would like to see it =/

On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming...

On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.

On October 27 2011 03:59 koppik wrote:
The thor's splash radius was the smallest splash radius in the game already. I don't think they can really make it smaller for the warhound.

Like archon splash radius for the warhound would be good, I think.

On October 27 2011 04:14 phyre112 wrote:


If you want to give it archon splash radius, then give it archon range too (3). Archons are "supposed" to be a good counter to mutalisks right now, but "how much damage you deal" against mutalisks is completely irrelevant when most units can't catch them (except blink stalkers and stimmed marines, or a lucky storm.)

On October 27 2011 03:44 ShatterZer0 wrote:


The Archons splash was always pretty big... actually.. EXACTLY the same size as a Siege Tank shot. Archons have MORE splash then Thors.

On October 27 2011 03:07 Nash wrote:


are you sure you're not confusing it with his talk about the tempest?

am i sure im not the one that is confused?

hmm.

edit: regarding the big splash radius

On October 27 2011 03:59 Lurk wrote:


Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

On October 27 2011 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:


Thank god, someone remembers some details xD

Otherwise though, really how can NO ONE know or have shared the details of the new units other than what blizzcon told us? (cost, etc.) ?!?!

Also, is there a range upgrade on the Goliath? I would think 7 range is a bit hard to deal vs mutas you would need to spread the Warhounds out. Marines with 5 range do fine because they're so small so that so many of them can shoot at us, plus they move fast and stim does a lot of damage if the zerg messes up. But I guess they want you to split your units up more.

On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:


Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor.

I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot.

On October 27 2011 04:51 Alpina wrote:
really? o_O

It always looked like thors have way bigger splash...

On October 27 2011 05:43 Cuiu wrote:


because that doesnt matter.
Numbers can be easily changed an this the last thing what blizzard is doing.

you dont start developing a game around numbers -.-
and even if they try they would never never get it right.
BETA

On October 27 2011 11:38 GinDo wrote:


Just like in BW. Medics, Corsairs, Goliath Range, and Valkyries Oh My O_O!

On October 27 2011 05:25 Alvas wrote:
Seems like there is a lot of anti-muta going on it HotS

On October 27 2011 03:59 Lurk wrote:


Err, well, archon splash area is four times that of the thor. So if it was just like archon's it would be bigger than the thor's :D

P.S.: The warhound has 4 attacks with it's anti-air cannon, each doing 4+4 damage, so a maximum of 32 damage per volley (a thor has 48).

On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:


Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups.
Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat.
Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come.

On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:



Though, remember that as terran, you don't have to upgrade as many things. So for example Protoss needs to upgrade 3 different ground upgrades for their army, and possibly 2 more if they're going heavy with air vs mech instead of just ground power. Zerg needs to upgrade 3 for their ground and possibly 2 more for their air units. As terran you just get double mech upgrades, and maybe +1 attack for vikings/air.

Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs .

So I guess now you REALLY need vikings and/or ghosts to deal with those BLs. Eff. Oh well I guess me and others have just been spoiled at how flexible Thor/Hellion is (especially after NP range nerf to 7).

On October 27 2011 13:43 Grumbels wrote:
They should let the warhound shoot like 4 missiles so it can always hit 4 mutas or so. This rewards keeping your mutalisks stacked, instead of having to do micro-less magic boxing.

On October 27 2011 13:53 SheaR619 wrote:


Thor were decent again BLs because terran usually had mech upgrade and zerg usually never get any +armor on air so the thor does quiet a bit of damage if he has +2 or even +1. I still dont believe warhound are going to be that bad because dont forget, they are now faster as well so they can get under or closer to the BLs and deal damage. Of course they are squishiers than the thor so they do die faster but I think this is worth trading for speed and quantity. I personally dont see why this unit should get splash for air....it doesnt really make sense lol. It seem that it would be way to strong vs air mutas but i dont know how well magic box will do though. I also dont see why they are range 7 on ground lol, I think range 6 is fine enough. We will have to see :D




I like this idea

On October 27 2011 04:26 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:


if archons were supposed to be the counter for mutalisks why did they make the tempest? shoulda just buffed archons

On October 27 2011 14:09 RockIronrod wrote:
To be honest, I've got no clue what the he'll Blizzard is thinking with everything relating to mutas. Like, when they first created Thors, they didn't know about magic boxing. So they really wanted one Thor to counter infinite mutas.
As if they don't die insanely fast to marines anyway.

On October 27 2011 16:05 Ganseng wrote:
i heard that these things cost 150m/75 g right now. which is really cheap.

On October 27 2011 16:11 iko wrote:


That's pretty expensive, the Goliath for comparison was 100/50, although from what I heard the Warhound has an outrageous 240hp.

On October 27 2011 15:26 Ironsights wrote:
Reading through this thread has brought a question to my mind...anyone that can answer would be appreciated:

The thor was the terran answer to force fields since he was massive. I am assuming the warhound is not a massive unit, since it is smaller and cheaper than a thor (and weaker to boot). Without the thor...what is the terran "massive" unit? Is it the odin...as in we only get ONE forcefield stomper? Or will the warhound be called "massive"?

On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs .

On October 27 2011 17:26 Honeybadger wrote:


Battle hellions will roast broodlings faster, means your 'hounds can close the gap more easily, and the smaller size means more shots will go off.

I forsee a mech revolution in all matchups, even if the WH's ground attack blows, you can still compliment them with siege tanks and battle hellions/banshees/ravens to have a crushingly strong force.

On October 27 2011 04:51 Alpina wrote:


really? o_O

It always looked like thors have way bigger splash...

Goliaths can target air and ground units simultaneously.

On October 27 2011 17:41 Sallek wrote:
I wonder if it will feature the Multi-Lock Weapons System



Because you know.... Warhound IS the Goliath, only uglier.

On October 27 2011 16:04 iko wrote:
If the Warhound is going to be another unit where the majority of the damage is +light, it will be just as much of a piece of shit as the Thor is. You can keep up against Mutalisks with a large number of Thors, but the moment the Zerg turns his larvae into Broodlords and Infestors instead of Mutalisks, they're toast.

The problem with the Thor is that it's average vs light units unless they clump, and it's a liability against armored air. The Warhound needs to just have a flat base attack without any bonus to either. The biggest problems with mech is that you have trouble dealing with Void Rays, Carriers, Broodlords and Battlecruisers.

The Viking is not a good enough substitute, being on a seperate weapon upgrade tree and requiring a Starport makes it harder for mech builds to get a decent amount of them, and in the case of TvT having no good ground unit to kill Armored Air just turns things into Viking Wars. Having a portion of your supply being up in the air unable to assist your Siege Tanks and Hellions without a lengthy, clunky animation is what's holding back Mech in TvP.

Perhaps if the Viking could be built from the Factory aswell (with a restriction of not being able to lift without a Starport) and would benefit from either ground or air upgrades (but never both simultaneously) they'd be an acceptable replacement. But since they've gone with the Warhound approach, I guess that's a forlorn idea.

tl;dr: Mech needs the Goliath to be successful, not smaller Thors.

On October 27 2011 18:19 Salteador Neo wrote:


Make it good and expensive I say.

On October 27 2011 18:42 iko wrote:


Cheap and average is the entire reason it exists. Good and expensive was the Thor, and it sucked.

On October 27 2011 18:19 Salteador Neo wrote:


Considering how easily this guy roflstomps every protoss unit other than void, immo and zealot atm, I think it should cost much more, maybe something similar to the immortal/void. Make it good and expensive I say.

On October 27 2011 04:51 Alpina wrote:


really? o_O

It always looked like thors have way bigger splash...

On October 27 2011 23:06 Elean wrote:

Hum, I don't think so. Just compare it to a maurauder.

On October 28 2011 00:51 Zariel wrote:
I've always found Thor's air splash was similar to what a colossus would splash against ground, I'm not sure of exact mechanics but I'd say the spread of 3 marauders in a horizontal line.

The warhound will def be smaller as they said, but i'd say it'd be 2 marauders width.

On October 27 2011 04:26 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:


if archons were supposed to be the counter for mutalisks why did they make the tempest? shoulda just buffed archons

On November 08 2011 03:39 Shiladie wrote:
As a zerg player who loves mutas, I'm dubious, but the purpose of mutas now it seems will be to force the terran to make this otherwise useless unit instead of their tank production, allowing zerg to swarm in on the ground. The problem though is that marines will still trump mutas anyways, so I see terrans just relying MORE on bio then before.

On October 27 2011 17:41 Sallek wrote:
I wonder if it will feature the Multi-Lock Weapons System



Because you know.... Warhound IS the Goliath, only uglier.

On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.

On October 27 2011 03:03 Alpina wrote:


If it's really bigger then it's stupid. Splash should be smaller, just like archon's.

On October 27 2011 02:54 Amazements wrote:



Nope, the two attacks are separate; the ground attack does 10 +10 to mech, rather than being a passive ability that increases damage to mech.

On November 08 2011 04:24 PH wrote:

So it's basically like a non-bio Marauder that pops from the factory and can hit air?

Oooook.

This is a Warning!

Reason: Misinformation. Archon splash has a radius of 1, while the Thor's anti-air splash radius is 0.5.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
Nyovne

On November 08 2011 04:55 DaveVAH wrote:
It has 11 range AA. its a siege type range.

The splash radius is somewhere between .5 to 1.

it is more effective at killing boxed muta's and mutas in general. That is its whole purpose of it TvZ as it stands, beside being another meat-shield for tanks. Perhaps countering broods in low numbers the way thors do atm with BFH and repair support.

On October 27 2011 13:53 SheaR619 wrote:


Thor were decent again BLs because terran usually had mech upgrade and zerg usually never get any +armor on air so the thor does quiet a bit of damage if he has +2 or even +1. I still dont believe warhound are going to be that bad because dont forget, they are now faster as well so they can get under or closer to the BLs and deal damage. Of course they are squishiers than the thor so they do die faster but I think this is worth trading for speed and quantity. I personally dont see why this unit should get splash for air....it doesnt really make sense lol. It seem that it would be way to strong vs air mutas but i dont know how well magic box will do though. I also dont see why they are range 7 on ground lol, I think range 6 is fine enough. We will have to see :D




I like this idea

On October 27 2011 16:11 iko wrote:


That's pretty expensive, the Goliath for comparison was 100/50, although from what I heard the Warhound has an outrageous 240hp.

On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?

On December 14 2011 10:47 m3rciless wrote:


lolol mods cant do math.

On October 27 2011 06:22 Eiviyn wrote:


Thor deals full damage in 0.5 radius

Archon
Full damage: 0.1 radius (basically single target)
Half damage: 0.4 radius (less than thor)
Quarter damage: 0.8

However the numbers here don't mean much.

Think of damage radii as being circles, and of units as also being circles. A unit is "hit" if the circles overlap, even a tiny bit.

Mutalisks have a radius of 0.5, which means that a Thor's AA will hit any mutalisk that is less than 1 from the impact site. This gives the Thor splash around the same size as a supply depot.

On November 08 2011 04:49 Lurk wrote:


Whoever reported me for that should relearn basic math. Area is PI times radius squared so double radius mean four times area. So where exactly is my misinformation there ?

On December 14 2011 10:47 m3rciless wrote:


lolol mods cant do math.

On December 14 2011 10:52 jorge_the_awesome wrote:


Wow.

On October 27 2011 18:22 Fluttershy wrote:
>Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs

Thors did like 20 damage per 2 second volley against broodlords if both are unupgraded, definitely not the best use of 300/200/6.

You could probably kill 2 thors and badly hurt a third thor with 1 BL,

On October 27 2011 11:44 Whitewing wrote:
It's basically a smaller, faster, cheaper, weaker thor. Because it's smaller and cheaper, you can have more of them more easily, and thus they can't be magic boxxed.

Their splash radius is about the same as the thors, so they'll hit clumped mutas hard, but magic box isn't as effective due to just plain having a lot more attacks.

On December 14 2011 16:31 Scila wrote:


Pretty much this. If people think Thors were good at countering Mutas, then they clearly never played terran. Mutas can often kill the same cost of thors as the mutas with magic box, that's how poorly designed Thors are. This is what the Warhound is intended to fix, along with giving Terran a better "massable" mech unit like the Goliath in BW.

I do agree with the guy that said that Warhound needs a flat anti-air attack, though. Without that, pure mech will NEVER be viable, because you will always have to supplement it with Vikings for anti-air.