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United States7483 Posts
On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming... Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor. I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot. Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups. Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat. Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come.
Vikings are supposed to fill the role of the goliath as the long range anti-armored air unit. It's unfortunate that they need a different upgrade, but even without it they do the job quite well.
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On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming... Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor. I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot. Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups. Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat. Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come.
Though, remember that as terran, you don't have to upgrade as many things. So for example Protoss needs to upgrade 3 different ground upgrades for their army, and possibly 2 more if they're going heavy with air vs mech instead of just ground power. Zerg needs to upgrade 3 for their ground and possibly 2 more for their air units. As terran you just get double mech upgrades, and maybe +1 attack for vikings/air.
Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs  .
So I guess now you REALLY need vikings and/or ghosts to deal with those BLs. Eff. Oh well I guess me and others have just been spoiled at how flexible Thor/Hellion is (especially after NP range nerf to 7).
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They should let the warhound shoot like 4 missiles so it can always hit 4 mutas or so. This rewards keeping your mutalisks stacked, instead of having to do micro-less magic boxing.
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On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming... Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor. I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot. Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups. Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat. Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come. Though, remember that as terran, you don't have to upgrade as many things. So for example Protoss needs to upgrade 3 different ground upgrades for their army, and possibly 2 more if they're going heavy with air vs mech instead of just ground power. Zerg needs to upgrade 3 for their ground and possibly 2 more for their air units. As terran you just get double mech upgrades, and maybe +1 attack for vikings/air. Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs . So I guess now you REALLY need vikings and/or ghosts to deal with those BLs. Eff. Oh well I guess me and others have just been spoiled at how flexible Thor/Hellion is (especially after NP range nerf to 7).
Thor were decent again BLs because terran usually had mech upgrade and zerg usually never get any +armor on air so the thor does quiet a bit of damage if he has +2 or even +1. I still dont believe warhound are going to be that bad because dont forget, they are now faster as well so they can get under or closer to the BLs and deal damage. Of course they are squishiers than the thor so they do die faster but I think this is worth trading for speed and quantity. I personally dont see why this unit should get splash for air....it doesnt really make sense lol. It seem that it would be way to strong vs air mutas but i dont know how well magic box will do though. I also dont see why they are range 7 on ground lol, I think range 6 is fine enough. We will have to see :D
On October 27 2011 13:43 Grumbels wrote:
They should let the warhound shoot like 4 missiles so it can always hit 4 mutas or so. This rewards keeping your mutalisks stacked, instead of having to do micro-less magic boxing.
I like this idea 
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On October 27 2011 13:53 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 27 2011 06:01 Eps wrote:On October 27 2011 03:55 GentleDrill wrote:On October 27 2011 03:50 FinestHour wrote:
The aa is 4,+4 to light? How underwhelming... Obviously it consists of multiple shots, just like the Thor. I really wish whatever genius wrote down the stats had thought to include that. I can't count the number of people who've looked at that one number and assumed that's the total damage it deals per shot. Even though it's multiple shots, the low damage stats means that Enemy Armour has a huge effect on their DPS. It is also means that its role as dedicated AA has to be supplemented by other units due to very low Armour Damage vs Armoured Air. Meaning pure Mech play is not viable for Terrans in most match ups. Against Toss, well pure Mech always had problems anyways and is only being somewhat "discovered" right now. Voidrays pose a potential threat. Against Zerg, Marine-Ghosts would be needed when the Broods come. Though, remember that as terran, you don't have to upgrade as many things. So for example Protoss needs to upgrade 3 different ground upgrades for their army, and possibly 2 more if they're going heavy with air vs mech instead of just ground power. Zerg needs to upgrade 3 for their ground and possibly 2 more for their air units. As terran you just get double mech upgrades, and maybe +1 attack for vikings/air. Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs . So I guess now you REALLY need vikings and/or ghosts to deal with those BLs. Eff. Oh well I guess me and others have just been spoiled at how flexible Thor/Hellion is (especially after NP range nerf to 7). Thor were decent again BLs because terran usually had mech upgrade and zerg usually never get any +armor on air so the thor does quiet a bit of damage if he has +2 or even +1. I still dont believe warhound are going to be that bad because dont forget, they are now faster as well so they can get under or closer to the BLs and deal damage. Of course they are squishiers than the thor so they do die faster but I think this is worth trading for speed and quantity. I personally dont see why this unit should get splash for air....it doesnt really make sense lol. It seem that it would be way to strong vs air mutas but i dont know how well magic box will do though. I also dont see why they are range 7 on ground lol, I think range 6 is fine enough. We will have to see :D Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:43 Grumbels wrote:
They should let the warhound shoot like 4 missiles so it can always hit 4 mutas or so. This rewards keeping your mutalisks stacked, instead of having to do micro-less magic boxing. I like this idea
Oh i totally forgot about that xD that they're a lot easier to move than Thors I mean. It was so hard just to get a thor to shoot a BL cus like 2 broodlings would block it xD.
Also, i agree with the air splash thing. I mean it still helps cus it stops stacking, but I think that fit a lot more with the Thor's 9 range thing. The 9 range thing + splash made it so that zerg would have to be really careful of stacking. But with 7 range they have more time to react now and magic box anyways. Idk, maybe they're keeping the splash on, knowing that you can magic box, just to stop 50 mutas from stacking up. After all you couldn't do that in BW since you can only control group 12 at a time.
Also I wonder how the attack animation is. The Thor could stutter step a bit with its air attack, but I wonder if it'll be even better with the WarHound. (Yes, the thor's air attack does take 3 seconds so stutter stepping may seem bad, but what I'm talking about is how fast the attack animation finishes, like marines are almost instant).
Another thing, yeah I agree 7 seems too much o.o it's 1 more than Stalker and Marauder. But maybe it's because, like Immortals, they are big units and are usually in the back.
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On October 27 2011 04:26 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:14 phyre112 wrote:On October 27 2011 03:59 koppik wrote:
The thor's splash radius was the smallest splash radius in the game already. I don't think they can really make it smaller for the warhound.
Like archon splash radius for the warhound would be good, I think. If you want to give it archon splash radius, then give it archon range too (3). Archons are "supposed" to be a good counter to mutalisks right now, but "how much damage you deal" against mutalisks is completely irrelevant when most units can't catch them (except blink stalkers and stimmed marines, or a lucky storm.) if archons were supposed to be the counter for mutalisks why did they make the tempest? shoulda just buffed archons
tbh as a random player I feel archons are slightly op right now.
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Archons are the counter to muta in the sense that if they engage in a direct fight, the Archons should rip them a new one.
But no one who goes Muta ever engages Protoss, it will always come down to a base trade and Archons are garbage in that scenario
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To be honest, I've got no clue what the hell Blizzard is thinking with everything relating to mutas. Like, when they first created Thors, they didn't know about magic boxing. So they really wanted one Thor to counter infinite mutas.
As if they don't die insanely fast to marines anyway.
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On October 27 2011 14:09 RockIronrod wrote:
To be honest, I've got no clue what the he'll Blizzard is thinking with everything relating to mutas. Like, when they first created Thors, they didn't know about magic boxing. So they really wanted one Thor to counter infinite mutas.
As if they don't die insanely fast to marines anyway.
yeah I know amirit o.o look at the tempets now, it seems its AOE is HUGE now, maybe like 2 radius even (which supports your theory)
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Reading through this thread has brought a question to my mind...anyone that can answer would be appreciated:
The thor was the terran answer to force fields since he was massive. I am assuming the warhound is not a massive unit, since it is smaller and cheaper than a thor (and weaker to boot). Without the thor...what is the terran "massive" unit? Is it the odin...as in we only get ONE forcefield stomper? Or will the warhound be called "massive"?
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They said that these babys would have more splash than thors, which i found quite ridiculous. you cant have it cheaper, faster and better all at once right?
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If the Warhound is going to be another unit where the majority of the damage is +light, it will be just as much of a piece of shit as the Thor is. You can keep up against Mutalisks with a large number of Thors, but the moment the Zerg turns his larvae into Broodlords and Infestors instead of Mutalisks, they're toast.
The problem with the Thor is that it's average vs light units unless they clump, and it's a liability against armored air. The Warhound needs to just have a flat base attack without any bonus to either. The biggest problems with mech is that you have trouble dealing with Void Rays, Carriers, Broodlords and Battlecruisers.
The Viking is not a good enough substitute, being on a seperate weapon upgrade tree and requiring a Starport makes it harder for mech builds to get a decent amount of them, and in the case of TvT having no good ground unit to kill Armored Air just turns things into Viking Wars. Having a portion of your supply being up in the air unable to assist your Siege Tanks and Hellions without a lengthy, clunky animation is what's holding back Mech in TvP.
Perhaps if the Viking could be built from the Factory aswell (with a restriction of not being able to lift without a Starport) and would benefit from either ground or air upgrades (but never both simultaneously) they'd be an acceptable replacement. But since they've gone with the Warhound approach, I guess that's a forlorn idea.
tl;dr: Mech needs the Goliath to be successful, not smaller Thors.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
i heard that these things cost 150m/75 g right now. which is really cheap.
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On October 27 2011 16:05 Ganseng wrote:
i heard that these things cost 150m/75 g right now. which is really cheap.
That's pretty expensive, the Goliath for comparison was 100/50, although from what I heard the Warhound has an outrageous 240hp.
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On October 27 2011 16:11 iko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 16:05 Ganseng wrote:
i heard that these things cost 150m/75 g right now. which is really cheap. That's pretty expensive, the Goliath for comparison was 100/50, although from what I heard the Warhound has an outrageous 240hp.
Resources in SC2 are not the same as in BW. Minerals and gas are both far more plentiful.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
yeah i don't think we shall compare the numbers to bw, it's simply a different game. but comparison to thor helps, this warhound seems to be really cheap compared to the 300m/200g thor.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
what i'd like to know is what purpose the other weapons drawn on the warhound (machine gun on its top and some cylindric cannon in its left hand) were supposed to serve. honestly an antimech/antimuta unit is a little bit boring imo and overlaps with other terran stuff. maybe (and hopefully) blizzard will come up with some more ideas before hots comes out.
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On October 27 2011 15:26 Ironsights wrote:
Reading through this thread has brought a question to my mind...anyone that can answer would be appreciated:
The thor was the terran answer to force fields since he was massive. I am assuming the warhound is not a massive unit, since it is smaller and cheaper than a thor (and weaker to boot). Without the thor...what is the terran "massive" unit? Is it the odin...as in we only get ONE forcefield stomper? Or will the warhound be called "massive"?
As far as I understand it, Blizzard wants to flesh out pure Bio vs. pure Mech styles more for Terrans. Forcefields are mainly a threat for pure Bio strategies and in this scenario you would not have a massive unit in the mix anyway. Against mech forcefields are rather weak, since it's all about fighting tank positions. So I guess the new Thor/Odin will be the only massive unit.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
come on guys thor is forcefield breaker in wol, what are you talking about? thors are crap against toss due to feedback, and we almostly never see them in tvp.
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On October 27 2011 13:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Frick I just noticed... 7 range war hounds means no more Thor/Hellion vs BLs .
Battle hellions will roast broodlings faster, means your 'hounds can close the gap more easily, and the smaller size means more shots will go off.
I forsee a mech revolution in all matchups, even if the WH's ground attack blows, you can still compliment them with siege tanks and battle hellions/banshees/ravens to have a crushingly strong force.
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EPT
