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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 23:12 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 22:46 freewareplayer wrote:
Seriously 1 HT can onehit like 4 infestors, so how is the infestor op?
If you refuse to build HTs vs Infestor thats your fault for not building a counter, so again how is a unit a problem that gets roflstomphardcountered by a unit of your own?
And every protoss in here briefly neglects to comment on how hard hard HTs stomp infestor, and just keeps ranting about how hard NP counters colossus.
Newsflash, NP doesnt counter colossus as hard as Feedback counters infestors, if NP gets nerfed, nerf Feedback as well. You're point is completely useless. You're not thinking about this within the context of the game. Protoss almost always needs to go Colossi and then tech switch to High Templar once multiple bases are up. Zerg, on the other hand, can get Infestors right away. It isn't simply HT vs. Infestor, its Infestors being more effective vs. the Protoss army than HT's are vs. Zerg and the fact that Infestors are more accessible. you didnt even made a single valid argument Hts are not good vs Zerg? Storm rapes Muta/lings/banelings Feedback stomps Infestors, Overseers, on top of that u can morp them in to powerfull Archons. And since when does Protoss always need colossus? Youre just saying random stuff, Zerg usually isnt the agressor in early or early mid game, so after FFE you got more than enough time to tech up.
I disagree. Since the infestor buffage I haven't seen Protoss be the true aggressor in any point of the game (assuming two equally matched opponents). Or at least that is my opinion. You are talking about the pro scene are you not?
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Zerg units already have the fewest spells (3) compared to terran (8) and protoss (7). And now they are effectively removing one of them from the game. The race also has the fewest units of three, and their units are less versatile.
So now we'll be back to the ZvP of old where we have to guess how many corruptors to build versus a collossi heavy army. If we undermake, we die. If we overmake, we have a lot of supply tied up in useless units when the P reloads with a stalker army. Why should the onus be on Z to react with the perfect composition while P can just carelessly spam out the all-purpose stalker unit? This is just poor game design, IMO.
Nerfs just homogenize the game and make it more boring to play and watch. All of this is due to the fact that Blizzard released the game without fully developing Z and P.
I'd love to see reapers with 30 second build times and quick nitro packs. Just give Z and P something to deal with it.
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nice. so roach/infestor into bl/infestor isn't invincible anymore. gj blizzard. fungal is still too strong against t and p but at least this is a step in the right direction.
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I love how many people compare things that can't be compared in this thread. So many people who think they truly understand the consequences of every change in the game. With all those people, who needs PTR? Just put them in a room for 2 or 3 days and you'll have a perfectly balanced game. Seriously?
The races need more balance but their mechanics are different. Warp-in, classic unit building and larve make things really difficult and most remarks I've read here don't take this into account. Nor the fact that Zerg units are supposed to be weak but fast, as well as toss units are slow but very strong. Infestor may be stronger than ghost and HT, but it's not supposed to be the same.
Remember how zergs used to complain about colossi being so powerful it was unbalanced? They found the infestor.
I am sure that if T had to go mass raven for a reason or another (on a pro level), everybody would ask to nerf the raven in the first few weeks.
I think that there are a lot of balance changes needed but we need to understand better the game before. Hydras are underused. instead of thinking that blizzard is stupid, why not trying to think that they know it can be a very powerful unit if used in a certain way? Some players have tried hydra drops (machine vs FFE) or nydus-hydra (Losira vs stargate), but I think more tries are needed. And not only for Zerg, every race needs to deepen the pool of units used. (my english sucks and I like how it sounds but that is most probably not correct)
Many peoples are also saying that zergs QQ a lot and that all zergs are stupid. That thinking is made of the same stupidity that racism is made of. Try to understand before criticizing. My understanding of that phenomenon is that zergs have a harder time than P or T to get a good understanding of their race. Micro is nearly non-existant for obvious reasons (weak units) and too many tech-path are rarely seen (hydra, nydus, ultras ). The zergs race is very different than the other two. Let's give Zergs some time. Just don't read QQ threads that are written by short minded people. If zergs needs a buff it will have it, QQ or not.
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On September 09 2011 23:19 jdsowa wrote:
Zerg units already have the fewest spells (3) compared to terran (8) and protoss (7). And now they are effectively removing one of them from the game. The race also has the fewest units of three, and their units are less versatile.
So now we'll be back to the ZvP of old where we have to guess how many corruptors to build versus a collossi heavy army. If we undermake, we die. If we overmake, we have a lot of supply tied up in useless units when the P reloads with a stalker army. Why should the onus be on Z to react with the perfect composition while P can just carelessly spam out the all-purpose stalker unit? This is just poor game design, IMO.
Nerfs just homogenize the game and make it more boring to play and watch. All of this is due to the fact that Blizzard released the game without fully developing Z and P.
I'd love to see reapers with 30 second build times and quick nitro packs. Just give Z and P something to deal with it.
calling stalkers "all purpose" is hilarious. they lose cost for cost to everything in the game, including workers. speed roaches beat them. hydralisks beat them. lings beat them. what more do you want?
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If this stays like this, then Neural will never ever be researched. Why would you want to NP a marine ??
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On September 09 2011 23:18 Hexxed wrote:
This new change has the dangerous threat of making Zealot archon TOO strong vs Zerg. Everyone seems to be forgetting in this thread that Archons are now massive. It is already extremely difficult to deal with and neural was one of the only ways of beating an archon zealot mass.
roaches ? anyone ?
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How to deal with mech/thors now?:s
Hopefully they remove this joke change
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On September 09 2011 23:18 Hexxed wrote:
This new change has the dangerous threat of making Zealot archon TOO strong vs Zerg. Everyone seems to be forgetting in this thread that Archons are now massive. It is already extremely difficult to deal with and neural was one of the only ways of beating an archon zealot mass.
Roach combined with Infestors (depending on the food, those Zealot/Archon rushes on low food can be stopped with pure Roach) deals fairly fine with that? Zealots (even +charge) are quite horrible vs Roaches on creep anyway. With Fungal they cannot even attack the Roaches...
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While i don't think that neural parasite was too strong as a spell, i think it was a bit over the top to have the spell at the infestor, which is already quite strong due to fungal.
Neural parasite basically made thors, battlecruisers and carriers a liability vs zerg. And since those units are quite underused, i think its a good change.
I would have no problem if they brought the spell in the original fashion back but put it on a different unit. That way, the zerg would have to build a specific unit to counter the massive units and could not use one that he already got to deal with mmm or gateway units.
The nerfed NP can still be used on tanks, immortals, ravens, ghosts, voidrays ... so it's not a complete waste.
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On September 09 2011 23:19 KobyKat wrote:
Personally I like this patch very much even though it mostly has Terran nefrs. (I play Terran). I am especially happy about the new NP change because Infestors could single handedly counter every massive unit whether it was ground or air win one upgrade. And for those of you worrying about how TvZ will work against mech you can still NP the tanks or put down some Infested Terran and make all the tanks splash each other.
... the problem with mech will be the 24 blue flame hellions + 12 thor composition, with repairing scv's.
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On September 09 2011 23:14 Cibron wrote:
I think this is a step in the right direction.
We need more spellcaster nerfs to balance the game faster. They should be good but not as good as they are right now.
TvP depends too heavily on good EMP hits.
Any PvX depends on good forcefields & storms(fixed).
Imba infestors are almost as bad as amu templars. This is not C&C - no mass single unit should beat any other unit combo.
Spellcasters in SC1 were completely imba also and that's partly why it took several years to balance the game.
BW spellcasters had spells that had effects that mixed really well with various units and were also very entertaining. The problem with SC2 spells is that they are very bland in comparison and are too general/good, making it really boring. FG completely nullifies any chance to micro against Zerg and does a hell of a lot of damage, EMP can't be dodged and instantly takes away shield energy, basically nullifying any chance that spellcasters have to fight back, FF completely nullifies any micro (again) while also (along with Warpgates) completely fucking up Protoss balance, and Psi Storm just isn't that good, especially compared to its BW counterpart. Compare this to BW where Dark Swarm had a lot of synergy with other Zerg units and required an incredible amount of skill to use, Psi Storm was much more powerful and actually was a threat when you saw even a couple HT's (meaning it was viable to go straight to HT's), and EMP had a significant travel time and was much smaller while also being on a very vulnerable and easily noticeable unit.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On September 09 2011 23:22 Hephaistas wrote:
How to deal with mech/thors now?:s
Hopefully they remove this joke change
honestly the only thing i could see working would be quick brood lords after the change :/
even then, blue flame hellion + tank effectively removes zerglings from the mix and vikings can be reactored out. add the fact that fungal and neural on siege tanks forces your festors into range and puts them in GREAT danger of target firing and i really dont know what zergs are going to do 
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What about NP on Corruptors? 
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I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another.
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I honestly think the infestor nerf is amazing! Let's look at this infestor thing at hand. Protoss and Terran can throw anything at the Zerg player and yet they can counter it with infestors if they choose. It really shouldn't be like that.
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LOL so many crying zergs. Zergs more whine than play
User was warned for this post
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I definitely think the infestor needed some type of change as its such an all purpose unit and it wasn't just the fungal damage. However if this does go through and Zerg are left lacking I hope they make the necessary changes in other areas to compensate to make the game better all around.
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I'm fine with the NP change aslong as we get a unit that is capable of dealing with Terran Mech and Zealot/Archon from the Protoss.
Having the infestor be to counter to every composition was stupid, but it was required because Zerg don't have a decent "massing unit" against those compositions.
The inclusion of a Hydra buff or roach change would make this change a positive.
And at least they are changing the Patch Notes, maybe we can see some Ghost changes to rectify TvP and ZvT late game.
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On September 09 2011 23:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:
BW spellcasters had spells that had effects that mixed really well with various units and were also very entertaining. The problem with SC2 spells is that they are very bland in comparison and are too general/good, making it really boring. FG completely nullifies any chance to micro against Zerg and does a hell of a lot of damage, EMP can't be dodged and instantly takes away shield energy, basically nullifying any chance that spellcasters have to fight back, FF completely nullifies any micro (again) while also (along with Warpgates) completely fucking up Protoss balance, and Psi Storm just isn't that good, especially compared to its BW counterpart. Compare this to BW where Dark Swarm had a lot of synergy with other Zerg units and required an incredible amount of skill to use, Psi Storm was much more powerful and actually was a threat when you saw even a couple HT's (meaning it was viable to go straight to HT's), and EMP had a significant travel time and was much smaller while also being on a very vulnerable and easily noticeable unit.
Yeah, I think this is the way I wanted to put it. They can be super good as long as they are not super hard to stop/counter.
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EPT
