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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
SoCal8907 Posts
On September 09 2011 23:26 hugman wrote:
I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another.
this is the sort of thing that players need to be trying instead of waiting for a nerf. this would be pretty smart!
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ohh boy am i looking forward to seeing destinys reaction to the NP change...
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On September 09 2011 23:28 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:26 hugman wrote:
I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another. this is the sort of thing that players need to be trying instead of waiting for a nerf. this would be pretty smart!
seen a few people doing this on streams
incontrol comes to mind
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I am actully laughing my ass off from this thread. the comments made about the NP nerf are so funny. people who think its being removed because it cant target massive units, people who think this nerf was too huge? who didnt expect the one unit that can Counter Air/Ground/invisible and BE a invisible harass unit to get a nerf? i mean common it nullifies so much already in a PVZ, and Collosi/Stalker was liturally impossible to go because of the NP/fungal and Broodlords. atleast now u can contest the Composition with Tier 3 Protoss army. instead of running away evrytime u see him with that composition.
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I hope blizzard never reads this thread LOL, NP made it impossible for protoss to win late game, IMPOSSIBLE, and i somehow am sure that all the zergs are just fine with that, which is why we have blizzard to actually stop the insanity like they stopped the warpin and storm insanity so long ago that everyone seems to forgot/dont care because its been removed.... In a few months everyone will have figured out how to deal with everything and this will also be forgotten, so get your wine on and unwhind!
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Holy shit. this can't be srs. this effectively removing the neural parasite spell from the game. If that gets through i change to terran.
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On September 09 2011 23:21 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:19 jdsowa wrote:
Zerg units already have the fewest spells (3) compared to terran (8) and protoss (7). And now they are effectively removing one of them from the game. The race also has the fewest units of three, and their units are less versatile.
So now we'll be back to the ZvP of old where we have to guess how many corruptors to build versus a collossi heavy army. If we undermake, we die. If we overmake, we have a lot of supply tied up in useless units when the P reloads with a stalker army. Why should the onus be on Z to react with the perfect composition while P can just carelessly spam out the all-purpose stalker unit? This is just poor game design, IMO.
Nerfs just homogenize the game and make it more boring to play and watch. All of this is due to the fact that Blizzard released the game without fully developing Z and P.
I'd love to see reapers with 30 second build times and quick nitro packs. Just give Z and P something to deal with it. calling stalkers "all purpose" is hilarious. they lose cost for cost to everything in the game, including workers. speed roaches beat them. hydralisks beat them. lings beat them. what more do you want?
They feel like they lose cost for cost vs probes too lol. Have you ever tried to harass with stalkers. its lawls.
ANyways this thread is a whole bunch of whine and cheese. Please, everyone calm down its a PTR patch change. You can rage all day about why it is good/bad but you should really start planning on how you would adjust your play. The crying and WoW esque pages of these forums make my eyes bleed (eyes aint supposed to do that yo).
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It all depends on which point of view one cares to take while observing this situation (the NP nerf and all the tears following it).
a) Protoss progamer winrate has fallen reaaaally low. 2 players fall out of Code S, one of them MC.
This is hardly an argument for the average guy. Unless you are mid Masters and above even improving your macro can make you win more games. Don't kid yourself saying that it is a balancing fault that you are stuck in platinum. You are there because you pretty much suck. So stop writing on the forums using the progamer winrate argument. Don't use it. Ever! (this applies to all reces who whine that way - idra fanboys are the most annoying of course)
b) Infestors are good vs everything I have.
This is somewhat correct. If you go infestors you cannot go wrong. Yet you have to stick to the right mineral dump for the current situation. If the opponent has 6 HT, some archons and a few chargelots and zerg goes infestor ling, zerg is dead, period. Infestor is an excellent support unit, true. Yet, while being universally good is a fact, it does not win you games alone, nor should it. HT and Ghosts are also used almos constantly and i see few whining over them
c) FG is a root.
This is the bloody issue. If a FG lands, then the zerg has the option to continue the engagement until the enemy units are chain FG and linged to death, or just retreat. It should be a snare and it should still prohibit blink and charge usage. Blink stalkers dominate everything in the Zerg arsenal without blink being able to be shut down.
d) NP counters my wonderful units, QQ.
This is TOTALLY ABSURD!! Zerg is known for "zerging" stuff. Mass units vs smaller yet better armies techwise. Yet you have to look back no further than 4 months to see the dominance protoss had on zerg both on pro and on amateur level by the completely bland and uninteresting usage of the "Deathball". A remax on blink stalkers after the destruction of both ground armies and the corruptors are there useless, while zergs reinforcements are dying as they spawn.
This argument is supported by "but mooooom, i paid money for this, i wanna win!!!!!" kiddos, who have no idea how to actually play. I really do not believe that actual gamers of every race and calibre have not enjoyed the change in protoss playstyle: Chargelot-archon / Colossi-HT-gateway / stronger 6-7-8 gate timings / templar drops, just to name a few, all have been used to compensate for the lack of defend-defend-defend-deathball-A-move-win-game action.
To sum up: FG needed not a dmg nerf, it needed a nerf to go from root to snare. NP should not be able to be used on Motherships and Archons. Theese units are supposed to stay there and do stuff and NP really stops them from being fun. It should continue to be used on Colossi, for the sake of NEVER EVER beeing forced into the "toss is now at 200/200, game over, thus I gotta cheese and pray" situation. If you want to do a deathball, then use some HT as well to stop the NP on the Colossi and with FG turned to slow (hopefully), you can avoid the OL fleet carpet dropping you.
Now, Thors are another issue. Probably it should not be allowed in the case of mech play, just to make mech viable, yet I do not see an easy way to implement that. Perhaps a REALLY expensive NP immunity upgrade??
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On September 09 2011 23:25 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:22 Hephaistas wrote:
How to deal with mech/thors now?:s
Hopefully they remove this joke change honestly the only thing i could see working would be quick brood lords after the change :/ even then, blue flame hellion + tank effectively removes zerglings from the mix and vikings can be reactored out. add the fact that fungal and neural on siege tanks forces your festors into range and puts them in GREAT danger of target firing and i really dont know what zergs are going to do 
Yes Zerg has no way to kill mech midgame now.
And late game we will get owned by ghosts anyway.
If this goes trough I just baneling/roach allin every game.
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On September 09 2011 23:19 R3demption wrote:
I disagree. Since the infestor buffage I haven't seen Protoss be the true aggressor in any point of the game (assuming two equally matched opponents). Or at least that is my opinion. You are talking about the pro scene are you not?
Lol?
Stargate agression after FFE ( mc does this how often?)
DT after FFE
+2 Blink stalker
sharking after 3 gate expand
just he stuff i can think off in 10 sec
at least one of those is in most of the PvZs
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On September 09 2011 23:30 Sanchonator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:28 immortlone wrote:On September 09 2011 23:26 hugman wrote:
I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another. this is the sort of thing that players need to be trying instead of waiting for a nerf. this would be pretty smart! seen a few people doing this on streams incontrol comes to mind
Ya this is a good way to play against infestors in general. The arguement though is that this with how fast battles happen. 1 second of NP colo and u lose teh fight. Not to mention how much more tech/apm is required to pull this off.
Biggest problem with infestors is they is/are the counter to every unit from every race. I still believe they will need an additional nerf (in lieu of the massive change)
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On September 09 2011 23:32 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:19 R3demption wrote:
I disagree. Since the infestor buffage I haven't seen Protoss be the true aggressor in any point of the game (assuming two equally matched opponents). Or at least that is my opinion. You are talking about the pro scene are you not? Lol? Stargate agression after FFE ( mc does this how often?) DT after FFE +2 Blink stalker sharking after 3 gate expand just he stuff i can think off in 10 sec at least one of those is in most of the PvZs
Small critique would be that's the kind of stuff that's been losing consistently in the past 2-3 months. Would have been a good answer back in the spring.
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On September 09 2011 23:20 AlgoFlash wrote:
I love how many people compare things that can't be compared in this thread. So many people who think they truly understand the consequences of every change in the game. With all those people, who needs PTR? Just put them in a room for 2 or 3 days and you'll have a perfectly balanced game. Seriously?
The races need more balance but their mechanics are different. Warp-in, classic unit building and larve make things really difficult and most remarks I've read here don't take this into account. Nor the fact that Zerg units are supposed to be weak but fast, as well as toss units are slow but very strong. Infestor may be stronger than ghost and HT, but it's not supposed to be the same.
Remember how zergs used to complain about colossi being so powerful it was unbalanced? They found the infestor.
I am sure that if T had to go mass raven for a reason or another (on a pro level), everybody would ask to nerf the raven in the first few weeks.
I think that there are a lot of balance changes needed but we need to understand better the game before. Hydras are underused. instead of thinking that blizzard is stupid, why not trying to think that they know it can be a very powerful unit if used in a certain way? Some players have tried hydra drops (machine vs FFE) or nydus-hydra (Losira vs stargate), but I think more tries are needed. And not only for Zerg, every race needs to deepen the pool of units used. (my english sucks and I like how it sounds but that is most probably not correct)
Many peoples are also saying that zergs QQ a lot and that all zergs are stupid. That thinking is made of the same stupidity that racism is made of. Try to understand before criticizing. My understanding of that phenomenon is that zergs have a harder time than P or T to get a good understanding of their race. Micro is nearly non-existant for obvious reasons (weak units) and too many tech-path are rarely seen (hydra, nydus, ultras ). The zergs race is very different than the other two. Let's give Zergs some time. Just don't read QQ threads that are written by short minded people. If zergs needs a buff it will have it, QQ or not.
To be fair, we didn't "find" the infestor. They were buffed significantly.
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meh, even though I'm protoss and think we need some serious buffs, I don't like the NP change. With that change you can as well remove the spell from the game, because it just won't be used anymore. It definitely made the gameplay more interesting.
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NP nerf pros:
- No NP of mothership. Good. Even I as a Zerg player cry inside when I see a mothership being NPed. It really shouldn't be possible.
(although the "hero unit" status of the motherships bothers me a bit - WCIII vibes...)
- Might lead to more diversity of gameplay. If P is hesitant to make carriers, mothership etc because they might get mind controlled by infestors, and this lead leads to less variety in the game, I feel that even as a Zerg I will benefit (from a "fun" perspective") from changes that promote more varied play. After all, for me the fun lies in the different compositions and possibilities it offers (who knows I might switch to P one day, hehe).
NP nerf cons/debatables:
- My main concern with the possible NP change does not have to do with the removal of NP against Colossus as such, but rather that the Corruptor (which I guess will be used to counter Colossi to a higher degree again) stands out as particularly not very helpful versus gateway units. Sure, remove NP against massive, but could we also come up with some fun things to do with the corruptor. Being able to land it and have it be a tentacled Viking version, contributing to the battle even post Colossi removal, comes to mind. Otherwise I fear that the Ultralisk, despite build time decrease, will be utterly sidestepped in favor of frantic BL tech.
- As the change is stated in the current PTR patch notes, I think it need to be complemented with a decrease in energy or research cost. Should it go through like this, it's basically just a "do not use NP" rewording. (which, in the perspective of variety, is boring). It might be useful in specific circumstances - roach heavy vs stalker+immortals but overall it might become a bit... not used. Whereas a reduced casting cost would enable more interesting play styles/micro and timing pushes earlier in the game.
- It's a TvZ buff. Admittedly, I have not watched every ZvT played during the last two months, but the Hellion/Thor compositions are a bit of a bother to the zergs even having NP in place, right? Without NP, the Thors might get too powerful. At least in the rather long window before BLs. (Ultralisk viability questionable here as well) Or what say you?
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Does anyone actually wondered why this NP change wasn't in the 1st patch notes ?
If NP was changed it's because, with the new balance changes, its design became bad in some way. Did anyone here extensively played the infestor enough in the PTR to know if countering Massive units required this specific ability ?
With the FG change you still deal bonus damage to Massive Mech units : Thors, BC and colossus. TvZ and TvP didn't broke : you can still rely to a lot of infestors but you still need to spawn the correct counter unit, what the hell were you thinking ?!
We, zerg, thank Blizzard for buffing the Ifestor so we could realize this unit was awesome. Maybe it should go back to something more balanced ?
The only unit I can think of that would benefit from this is the Archon, Carriers and Mothership... can't wait to watch those matchs !
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i dont expect the NP change in the final patchnotes, it just doesnt make any sense if you cant NP Thors.
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On September 09 2011 23:28 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:26 hugman wrote:
I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another. this is the sort of thing that players need to be trying instead of waiting for a nerf. this would be pretty smart!
Its neat but Phoenix's built only to protect collosus seems to exasperate the problem even further. Why should we have to build units to make our other unit that is a core unit a core unit again by making it not able to be mind controlled by another core unit there by making that other core unit useless. You see how confusing that is? A strategy game should be very simple to understand and have a basic premise when engaging while still allowing for intricacies and nuances on the side so that the best of the best can outshine and dazzle the rest of the scene.
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I wonder why there is so much QQ on the infestor when P and T has EMP + HT to deal with it? While EMP makes Infestor useless if it hits the HT can morph into archons after feedback which kills infestor. Archons are pretty good vs every zerg unit (FF usage) and suddenly roaches have a lot of problems -.-
FG dmg nerf seems kinda legit, but NP hm...
2 Base BL inc?
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Dear Zerg player,
Comon guys, chin up. You can overcome this. Stop thinking about the infestor and look at a much broader subject. The next time you loose to Protoss I'd like you to ask yourself a few questions.
"Did I use mobility? Did I attack their army from as many angles as possible? Did I back stab whenever possible? Did I use drops or nydus to punish greed? Did I micro my expensive units well, and not suicide them? Did I scout well, seeing their composition and tech early then getting the proper units and upgrades? Was I greedy at the right times or too greedy at times?"
These things are fundamentals tactics and concepts of Zerg and I honestly see a lot of zergs who are completely ignoring them. If you loose to a protoss watch your replay and ask these questions. You might realize some weaknesses in your play, and that can make you a much better player. If you're flustered have a friend watch the replay and ask these questions, I'd bet that if you lost, some of the answers to them will be "no"
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EPT
