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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Holy hell, didn't expect blizz to add such a change. This is gonna really hurt the "go mass infestor don't worry about MU or army comp" build (destiny  ) I feel that it leaves ZvT pretty much the same since there are better units to fungal than thors anyways normally, but this will basically FORCE spire for corruptors vs colossustoss. (No idea how it'll affect ZvZ with the new Ultra buff and being that I basically never watch ZvZ anyways)
Talking as a protoss player, this might be too hardcore of a change, doesn't leave zerg many options vs toss; I'd have loved to see it along with some hydra change -.-
But we'll see how it'll do on its own, I'm gonna start trying out the PTR now hahaha
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As long as they can't neural colossi and mothership (really that was just ridiculous that that was ever possible) I'm fine, I wouldn't mind if archon was still neuralable.
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This is a neat change since it weakens one of the most abusive and easy to use unit comps vs. Protoss. I don't think it will really do anything to alter the PvZ dynamic. Korean pros do not really abuse neural very often vs Protoss.
I think that this change actually has much more interesting implications for TvZ. Expecting more Protoss changes in the future. :D
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I play Random in platinum.
The neural change sucks for Zergs a lot. I don't mind it, but in exchange they should return with something in addition to the Ultra change.
LIKE MAKE HYDRAS NOT TERRIBLE. Zerg wouldn't feel so devastated by this if they had a t2 unit that was viable against the deathball that wasn't infestor. Any of the following would work:
Give them a speed upgrade or up their natural speed.
Range upgrade increase is greater (go from 5 to 7, say).
Give them some more HP. They melt, and for the price, they probably shouldn't quite so fast.
Making 20 spellcasters isn't good, but that is the best Zerg option at the moment, and their alternatives really aren't that great.
Every Starcraft 2 player would understand buffing the hydra a little in the face of this nerf. No one disputes that hydras just aren't good in hardly any situations (and even when they are good, there are usually have better alternatives).
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This is the best change blizzard has ever made since fixing 5rax reapers.
A lategame situation where it's better to get T1-2 units so u won't lose them all to Neural parasite was absolutely disgusting.
Great fix.
edit:
They could buff hydra's or something else in return tho.
Cuz this change is huge in ZvP
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My personal suspicion is that the NP nerf is being placed in PTR primarily to force Zerg players there to actually /test/ the changes. As it is, too many people may be using Infestors "too much" for a proper test of the balance changes.
Now the counter to mothership is to scout and start Hydras if it's backed by air, or ignore it and overrun with Roaches if it's backed by ground, in the same way that Roaches can end up countering void ray builds. This tests the cost buff for Overseers indirectly.
The counter to ground massive units is, of course, Ultras. People may simply not be building them enough for a test, since we're used to them taking 70 (70!) seconds to see a possible return on investment. (Though Zealot/Archon may still be challenging to fight.)
The NP nerf is likely too severe to be left in the game proper -- its only reasonable targets are casters now. Once they gauge the strength of the Overseer/Ultralisk buffs, we will probably see a gentler nerf of NP at worst. We may even see an energy cost buff -- if its only reasonable targets are casters, then it needs to be brought in line with Feedback and EMP (especially since you actually have to research it).
Purely speculation, of course; I have no affiliation with Blizzard's testers.
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On September 09 2011 23:35 soupchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:20 AlgoFlash wrote:
I love how many people compare things that can't be compared in this thread. So many people who think they truly understand the consequences of every change in the game. With all those people, who needs PTR? Just put them in a room for 2 or 3 days and you'll have a perfectly balanced game. Seriously?
The races need more balance but their mechanics are different. Warp-in, classic unit building and larve make things really difficult and most remarks I've read here don't take this into account. Nor the fact that Zerg units are supposed to be weak but fast, as well as toss units are slow but very strong. Infestor may be stronger than ghost and HT, but it's not supposed to be the same.
Remember how zergs used to complain about colossi being so powerful it was unbalanced? They found the infestor.
I am sure that if T had to go mass raven for a reason or another (on a pro level), everybody would ask to nerf the raven in the first few weeks.
I think that there are a lot of balance changes needed but we need to understand better the game before. Hydras are underused. instead of thinking that blizzard is stupid, why not trying to think that they know it can be a very powerful unit if used in a certain way? Some players have tried hydra drops (machine vs FFE) or nydus-hydra (Losira vs stargate), but I think more tries are needed. And not only for Zerg, every race needs to deepen the pool of units used. (my english sucks and I like how it sounds but that is most probably not correct)
Many peoples are also saying that zergs QQ a lot and that all zergs are stupid. That thinking is made of the same stupidity that racism is made of. Try to understand before criticizing. My understanding of that phenomenon is that zergs have a harder time than P or T to get a good understanding of their race. Micro is nearly non-existant for obvious reasons (weak units) and too many tech-path are rarely seen (hydra, nydus, ultras ). The zergs race is very different than the other two. Let's give Zergs some time. Just don't read QQ threads that are written by short minded people. If zergs needs a buff it will have it, QQ or not.
To be fair, we didn't "find" the infestor. They were buffed significantly.
NP & Infested Terran weren't buffed
Zerg play actually got a lot better, we see Ling / Bane / Infestor, pure Ling / Infestor, Mutas, gassless 3 hatch openings etc now. Protoss still uses the same stuff, FFE, Stargate opener etc. and those are simply not as good anymore.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 09 2011 23:38 R3demption wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:28 immortlone wrote:On September 09 2011 23:26 hugman wrote:
I haven't even seen Protoss players trying to cancel NP with Phoenixes. You know you can flank with them, just lift up the Infestor so it cancels, then drop him and lift up another. this is the sort of thing that players need to be trying instead of waiting for a nerf. this would be pretty smart! Its neat but Phoenix's built only to protect collosus seems to exasperate the problem even further. Why should we have to build units to make our other unit that is a core unit a core unit again by making it not able to be mind controlled by another core unit there by making that other core unit useless. You see how confusing that is? A strategy game should be very simple to understand and have a basic premise when engaging while still allowing for intricacies and nuances on the side so that the best of the best can outshine and dazzle the rest of the scene.
tier 3 units should not be considered "core" units. if colossus are the core of your army, you're doing something wrong with your gateway unit production.
honestly, neural parasite is quite simple..if a unit gets snagged, snipe the infestor that is neuraling. or feedback the infestor so it CANT neural. OR lift the infestor so it breaks the neural. thats simple enough, isn't it?
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On September 09 2011 22:54 Andytaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:52 Drinc wrote:
NP Change is EPIC! Now mech will actually be powerful TvZ Goody is planning a big Party to celebrate that
Goody plays Idra
Goody makes thor
Idra leaves game
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On September 09 2011 23:40 MeLlamoSatan wrote:
I play Random in platinum.
The neural change sucks for Zergs a lot. I don't mind it, but in exchange they should return with something in addition to the Ultra change.
LIKE MAKE HYDRAS NOT TERRIBLE. Zerg wouldn't feel so devastated by this if they had a t2 unit that was viable against the deathball that wasn't infestor. Any of the following would work:
Give them a speed upgrade or up their natural speed.
Range upgrade increase is greater (go from 5 to 7, say).
Give them some more HP. They melt, and for the price, they probably shouldn't quite so fast.
Making 20 spellcasters isn't good, but that is the best Zerg option at the moment, and their alternatives really aren't that great.
Every Starcraft 2 player would understand buffing the hydra a little in the face of this nerf. No one disputes that hydras just aren't good in hardly any situations (and even when they are good, there are usually have better alternatives).
A speed buff is really the only thing Hydras require to be decent IMO.
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Oh yeah! I was thinking that they left Infestor too strong, but this makes balance much better  . Really good job by Blizzard
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The NP nerf is just ridiculous. Makes it completely useless. What are people supposed to NP, Stalkers?
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Meh.. same thing as Funga can't hit air.
They will try, realize it's stupid and remove the change before it goes live.
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my awful forge FE into carrier/mothership build is back bitches
On September 09 2011 23:43 sitromit wrote:
The NP nerf is just ridiculous. Makes it completely useless. What are people supposed to NP, Stalkers?
ghosts, templars and tanks for example
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On September 09 2011 23:35 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:32 freewareplayer wrote:On September 09 2011 23:19 R3demption wrote:
I disagree. Since the infestor buffage I haven't seen Protoss be the true aggressor in any point of the game (assuming two equally matched opponents). Or at least that is my opinion. You are talking about the pro scene are you not? Lol? Stargate agression after FFE ( mc does this how often?) DT after FFE +2 Blink stalker sharking after 3 gate expand just he stuff i can think off in 10 sec at least one of those is in most of the PvZs Small critique would be that's the kind of stuff that's been losing consistently in the past 2-3 months. Would have been a good answer back in the spring.
Yeah sharking gets shut down hard now because Zerg are akin to it. Also Dts and sairs are shut down hard by a single building (sporecrawler) and unless the Z is terribad it doesn't do hardly any damage while the Z is then able to drone like crazy because no threat of a massive army. What i like from pheonixes and Dts is the scouting potential of the two, but what good does thatdo you when you know what is coming will outright kill you. Blink stalkers are now actually countered by 2 base infestor rush plus blink is being addressed in this patch.
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Crazy change, hopefully the cost of NP is reduced (either mana or research cost) if this nerf sticks.
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On September 09 2011 23:38 Reborn8u wrote:
Dear Zerg player,
Comon guys, chin up. You can overcome this. Stop thinking about the infestor and look at a much broader subject. The next time you loose to Protoss I'd like you to ask yourself a few questions.
"Did I use mobility? Did I attack their army from as many angles as possible? Did I back stab whenever possible? Did I use drops or nydus to punish greed? Did I micro my expensive units well, and not suicide them? Did I scout well, seeing their composition and tech early then getting the proper units and upgrades? Was I greedy at the right times or too greedy at times?"
These things are fundamentals tactics and concepts of Zerg and I honestly see a lot of zergs who are completely ignoring them. If you loose to a protoss watch your replay and ask these questions. You might realize some weaknesses in your play, and that can make you a much better player. If you're flustered have a friend watch the replay and ask these questions, I'd bet that if you lost, some of the answers to them will be "no"
yeah, and the Protosses will think "are 5 colossi enough to push or should i wait for the 6th?" and "should i build 3 or 4 cannons at my third?"
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On September 09 2011 23:40 zalgolisk wrote:
My personal suspicion is that the NP nerf is being placed in PTR primarily to force Zerg players there to actually /test/ the changes. As it is, too many people may be using Infestors "too much" for a proper test of the balance changes.
Now the counter to mothership is to scout and start Hydras if it's backed by air, or ignore it and overrun with Roaches if it's backed by ground, in the same way that Roaches can end up countering void ray builds. This tests the cost buff for Overseers indirectly.
The counter to ground massive units is, of course, Ultras. People may simply not be building them enough for a test, since we're used to them taking 70 (70!) seconds to see a possible return on investment. (Though Zealot/Archon may still be challenging to fight.)
The NP nerf is likely too severe to be left in the game proper -- its only reasonable targets are casters now. Once they gauge the strength of the Overseer/Ultralisk buffs, we will probably see a gentler nerf of NP at worst. We may even see an energy cost buff -- if its only reasonable targets are casters, then it needs to be brought in line with Feedback and EMP (especially since you actually have to research it).
Purely speculation, of course; I have no affiliation with Blizzard's testers.
Excellent speculation.
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for all of those saying that the 200/200 P ball will be unstoppable, infest/ling/broodlords will still be very potent. Yes P's endgame will be better but you do all realize that atm zerg is usually ahead from the very start until the end. I'd say 90% of PvZ's where the P wins it because teh Z overdroned or the P cheesed (canons/voids/proxy). Z just has so much production that they can easily push ahead in econ, while I know this is part of their race design and working as intended, it still is to the point where late game Z's army is much better than P's. It's not like P's harass options are very extensive ATM either. I mean I'm having trouble understanding what part of the game P has the advantage atm?
Also for all of those saying if your not midmasters you cant complain. While getting better is an option, should I have to play twice as well an equally skilled opponent to beat him?
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On September 09 2011 23:42 soupchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:40 MeLlamoSatan wrote:
I play Random in platinum.
The neural change sucks for Zergs a lot. I don't mind it, but in exchange they should return with something in addition to the Ultra change.
LIKE MAKE HYDRAS NOT TERRIBLE. Zerg wouldn't feel so devastated by this if they had a t2 unit that was viable against the deathball that wasn't infestor. Any of the following would work:
Give them a speed upgrade or up their natural speed.
Range upgrade increase is greater (go from 5 to 7, say).
Give them some more HP. They melt, and for the price, they probably shouldn't quite so fast.
Making 20 spellcasters isn't good, but that is the best Zerg option at the moment, and their alternatives really aren't that great.
Every Starcraft 2 player would understand buffing the hydra a little in the face of this nerf. No one disputes that hydras just aren't good in hardly any situations (and even when they are good, there are usually have better alternatives).
A speed buff is really the only thing Hydras require to be decent IMO.
Seriously I complain about this and I'm a Protoss. If i was to break my rule and whine balance about anything it would be over the sad state of hydras. They are a situational unit at best now instead of the core and pride of the Z v P army.
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EPT
