EPTFor example, Immortals having splash/upgradable. This would be insanely powerful as it is, but if there was a corresponding buff to certain elements of T and Z, it could be viable and make for a fun mechanic.
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 222
| Forum Index > Closed |
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
For example, Immortals having splash/upgradable. This would be insanely powerful as it is, but if there was a corresponding buff to certain elements of T and Z, it could be viable and make for a fun mechanic. | ||
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Garfunko
Canada121 Posts
But to make it seem like a entire race is " fine" because player X wins a tourney? Yeah that makes sense. You have to look at the gameplay and examine the fundamentals of the core game to talk about balance, not just about ah well he won gsl three times, zerg must be balanced. You're not Fox News or 12 years old, try and use real arguments and back them up for a meaningful discussion please. | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:25 IVN wrote: That would be too strong, and make colossi obsolete. Immortals would counter every ground unit in the game, while being able to tank quite a lot of damage. Bad idea. Nont only would it reduce the APM requirement and thus lower the skill ceiling of the protoss race, it would also reduce the flexibility of chrono boost. The best thing about chrono is iths felxibility. Early game you can cast one to get 2 probes and one stalker faster, or 2 probes and faster wg upgrade, and so on. If it were to last 2x as long and be 2x as expensive, you could only choose between chronoing 4 probes, 1 extremely fas stalker or much faster wg upgrade. I'm enjoying this. It's almost like every bronze/silver league player is coming out of the woodwork to tell us what they *really* think should change balance-wise. Did I say almost? oops | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:25 marttorn wrote: i'm a fan of the idea of making everything OP as opposed to nerfing everything down. This makes the game more exciting to view, and more skills to master. For example, Immortals having splash/upgradable. This would be insanely powerful as it is, but if there was a corresponding buff to certain elements of T and Z, it could be viable and make for a fun mechanic. Meaning you like games, where one battle decides the whole game? Dont we have enough of that already in SC2? - awesome FFs and its gg - awesome storm and its gg - awesome FG and its gg - awesome EMP and its gg I dont like games, where 1 small mistake decides it all. With "your" immortals it woul probably be: "oh shit, I didnt manage to EMP and snipe them/to NP them................gg" | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:31 Garfunko wrote: I love how people bring up the who won GSL X months ago to end all balance argument and discussion. Yeah Nestea was on fire during this time and perhaps he was simply the better player during that time. But to make it seem like a entire race is " fine" because player X wins a tourney? Yeah that makes sense. You have to look at the gameplay and examine the fundamentals of the core game to talk about balance, not just about ah well he won gsl three times, zerg must be balanced. You're not Fox News or 12 years old, try and use real arguments and back them up for a meaningful discussion please. Why would we need to words when we can point to results. You can argue until you face is blue and the cows come home. Good players are still going to win using existing balance changes, making all of this discussion seem as if it's people who don't know how to play the game at a high level, make suggestions that would absolutely break existing balance. And when people point to Nestea winning the GSL X months ago, they could be talking about any of his GSL wins, including GSL July. That wasn't X months ago, that was last week. "You're not Fox News or 12 years old, try and use real arguments and back them up for a meaningful discussion please." If you're for one moment suggesting that pointing to real-world results is not a "real argument", you're fucking delusional. When you're talking about non-linear mathematics, words are the fake argument, and results are the real ones. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:16 Eishi_Ki wrote: Theoretical question. Toss air is void (thank you) vs T because Vikings have long range, are reactor-able and are relatively cheap. Would P air be more viable if Vikings cost 3 supply as opposed to two? Protoss air is countered by marines, not vikings. protoss air actually is very good against unmicroed vikings. Both voids and phoenix vaporize against stimmed marines. Now you could think a unit with 450 HP, 2 armor and a range of 8 or 14 if microed could do well against them, but here comes the problem that marines dont have to engage them, they only have to fight the interceptors, and they as well vaporize against marines. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:31 OPL3SA2 wrote: Do you mean me?I'm enjoying this. It's almost like every bronze/silver league player is coming out of the woodwork to tell us what they *really* think should change balance-wise. Did I say almost? oops | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
Me, probably. :D | ||
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Simberto
Germany11315 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:25 marttorn wrote: i'm a fan of the idea of making everything OP as opposed to nerfing everything down. This makes the game more exciting to view, and more skills to master. For example, Immortals having splash/upgradable. This would be insanely powerful as it is, but if there was a corresponding buff to certain elements of T and Z, it could be viable and make for a fun mechanic. You can't balance that way. So you notice one thing is to strong. You now have to buff every single other thing. With so many buffs, it is probable that you will get one a bit off and another thing is to strong. Meaning you have to continue buffing everything all the time, without ever reaching anything like a good balanced state. However, if you buff things that are not good enough, and nerf things which are too good, you can reach a balanced state much quicker and more reliable. Especially if you use small steps instead of giant leaps. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:25 IVN wrote: That would be too strong, and make colossi obsolete. Immortals would counter every ground unit in the game, while being able to tank quite a lot of damage. Bad idea. Nont only would it reduce the APM requirement and thus lower the skill ceiling of the protoss race, it would also reduce the flexibility of chrono boost. The best thing about chrono is iths felxibility. Early game you can cast one to get 2 probes and one stalker faster, or 2 probes and faster wg upgrade, and so on. If it were to last 2x as long and be 2x as expensive, you could only choose between chronoing 4 probes, 1 extremely fas stalker or much faster wg upgrade. If pros cant keep their nexus' from reachin 100 energy in the lategame in almost every game, then the APM requirements and the skill ceiling are to high. And no, I never suggested that they should tack 2 chronoboosts together and sell it at 50 energy... We can do that already by chaining two chronos together... I wouldnt suggest something like that. I suggested that it's energy cost gets doubled. (so 50 instead of 25) making it easier to spend late game,in exchange for that the speedboost gets doubled aswell, NOT THE DURATION. meaning something like that: 50energy, 20second duration, 100% faster buld time. compared to what we have at the moment: 25 energy, 20 second duration, 50% faster build time. and now what you assumed I was talking about: 50energy, 40seconds duration, 50% faster build time. now THAT would indeed do nothing but hurt the versatility... but that's not what I suggested  | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On August 30 2011 07:01 SeaSwift wrote: 9 range, and I think the reason why a protoss player can pop a whole line of ghosts at once is because the Terran wasn't paying attention and blundered. No, this is why a protoss player can pop a whole line of ghosts at once... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217666 FB is also instantaneous. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
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GentleDrill
United Kingdom672 Posts
On August 31 2011 00:14 beute wrote:If pros cant keep their nexus' from reachin 100 energy in the lategame in almost every game, then the APM requirements and the skill ceiling are to high. That's a stupid thing to say. The game has not been mastered after a year, no matter how much BW history players have coming into it. Or have you not noticed that pro players still get supply blocked or float minerals when they're not maxed? | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On August 31 2011 00:16 p1cKLes wrote: No, this is why a protoss player can pop a whole line of ghosts at once... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217666 FB is also instantaneous. What does casting spells via the minimap have to do with anything? Feedback still only has 9 range, versus the 12 effective range of EMP. If a High Templar kills a Ghost it can only happen because the Terran made a mistake or wasn't watching. By the way, I imagine you've never tried feedbacking via the minimap before. It works pretty well against clumps of energy units on small maps, but on large maps you need to be pixel perfect, overall not a very effective technique if you ask me. It's really only good for use against huge Infestor blobs that Zergs like to employ. On August 31 2011 00:16 Ballistixz wrote: buff toss gateway units and bring roaches back to 1 supply would be nice when i think about it I don't see how you could possibly buff gateway units enough to withstand 1 supply Roaches without making them way too strong against Terran. | ||
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:25 marttorn wrote: i'm a fan of the idea of making everything OP as opposed to nerfing everything down. This makes the game more exciting to view, and more skills to master. For example, Immortals having splash/upgradable. This would be insanely powerful as it is, but if there was a corresponding buff to certain elements of T and Z, it could be viable and make for a fun mechanic. Here's a example to show how dumb that is: "Let's make this unit do lots of damage, but then maybe other units should have lots of hit points, it'd be more fun!" | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:31 Garfunko wrote: I love how people bring up the who won GSL X months ago to end all balance argument and discussion. Yeah Nestea was on fire during this time and perhaps he was simply the better player during that time. But to make it seem like a entire race is " fine" because player X wins a tourney? Yeah that makes sense. You have to look at the gameplay and examine the fundamentals of the core game to talk about balance, not just about ah well he won gsl three times, zerg must be balanced. You're not Fox News or 12 years old, try and use real arguments and back them up for a meaningful discussion please. When Nestea wins GSL a month ago it shows that it is possible to win with Zerg. Sure you might have an argument about using GSL Open Season 1 as balance examples, but there's nothing wrong with using the highest skill tournament as proof that it is POSSIBLE to win with one race or another. And how is theorycrafting like you suggest a better measurement for balance than real world results? It's not. Especially when (the majority of the time) it's done most fervently by low league players who think that their race is holding them down and not their skills. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 31 2011 00:14 beute wrote: If pros cant keep their nexus' from reachin 100 energy in the lategame in almost every game, then the APM requirements and the skill ceiling are to high. And no, I never suggested that they should tack 2 chronoboosts together and sell it at 50 energy... We can do that already by chaining two chronos together... I wouldnt suggest something like that. I suggested that it's energy cost gets doubled. (so 50 instead of 25) making it easier to spend late game,in exchange for that the speedboost gets doubled aswell, NOT THE DURATION. meaning something like that: 50energy, 20second duration, 100% faster buld time. compared to what we have at the moment: 25 energy, 20 second duration, 50% faster build time. and now what you assumed I was talking about: 50energy, 40seconds duration, 50% faster build time. now THAT would indeed do nothing but hurt the versatility... but that's not what I suggested Lategame... Its not because of the skill ceiling that CB does not get used late game. Its cuz of there being very little to use it on. When all major upgrades are done, and you are sitting on 200 suplly, there just is no use for CB, other than boosting gates after a fight. | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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