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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 31 2011 05:58 moralis wrote:
On August 31 2011 03:15 Sea_Food wrote:
PS. There is a conspiracy. Blizz is doing the patch right now to help huk out, to make a forgeiner win gsl, to grow esport, to give blizz more money.
sounds very interesting if you are serious, is there a discussion happening about this topic somewhere?
He's obviously not serious. Blizzard can do a lot of things to increase eSports popularity than some silly little "conspiracy", like you know mentioning large tournaments that aren't mlg/gsl on their front page with links to streams.
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why does carriers still takes 120 seconds to build?
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On August 31 2011 05:50 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:34 GeekAbaddon wrote:
In regards to carriers and chronoboosts, would it be a viable (albeit it micro auto feature) that you could set Chronoboost permantly on a structure(s) at reduced % not 50% but maybe 30% for the likes of carrier build times to get them out quicker? And it kept going until ran outer energy? Would at least mean carriers could be quickened at least in production. I'll probably get flamed for post but was just a thought before laddering chronoboost on carriers isn't worth it, as much as carriers are not worth it. a carrier builds in 120s 1 chronoboosts saves you 10s means 110s thats a build time reduction of less then 9% a fully boosted carrier will build in 80s (meaning 4 chronoboosts wasted on it) Carriers are countered by the same unit that counters Colossus, thus Carrier are easier to counter, because you build them up slower then colossus.
1 Chronoboost saves you only ~7 seconds per use, not 10.
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5 Posts
wait wow... why are ultra's being THAT reduced in time? - Infernal pre-igniters being nerfed by half? No point in upgrading then/
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On August 31 2011 06:31 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:50 freetgy wrote:On August 31 2011 05:34 GeekAbaddon wrote:
In regards to carriers and chronoboosts, would it be a viable (albeit it micro auto feature) that you could set Chronoboost permantly on a structure(s) at reduced % not 50% but maybe 30% for the likes of carrier build times to get them out quicker? And it kept going until ran outer energy? Would at least mean carriers could be quickened at least in production. I'll probably get flamed for post but was just a thought before laddering chronoboost on carriers isn't worth it, as much as carriers are not worth it. a carrier builds in 120s 1 chronoboosts saves you 10s means 110s thats a build time reduction of less then 9% a fully boosted carrier will build in 80s (meaning 4 chronoboosts wasted on it) Carriers are countered by the same unit that counters Colossus, thus Carrier are easier to counter, because you build them up slower then colossus. 1 Chronoboost saves you only ~7 seconds per use, not 10.
Chrono increases production rate by 50% for its 20 second duration. So instead of 20 seconds worth of build-time you get 30 seconds worth of build-time from a single CB, reducing the total time to build / research by 10 seconds per CB.
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On August 31 2011 06:31 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:50 freetgy wrote:On August 31 2011 05:34 GeekAbaddon wrote:
In regards to carriers and chronoboosts, would it be a viable (albeit it micro auto feature) that you could set Chronoboost permantly on a structure(s) at reduced % not 50% but maybe 30% for the likes of carrier build times to get them out quicker? And it kept going until ran outer energy? Would at least mean carriers could be quickened at least in production. I'll probably get flamed for post but was just a thought before laddering chronoboost on carriers isn't worth it, as much as carriers are not worth it. a carrier builds in 120s 1 chronoboosts saves you 10s means 110s thats a build time reduction of less then 9% a fully boosted carrier will build in 80s (meaning 4 chronoboosts wasted on it) Carriers are countered by the same unit that counters Colossus, thus Carrier are easier to counter, because you build them up slower then colossus. 1 Chronoboost saves you only ~7 seconds per use, not 10.
No it's 10 seconds.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost_Math
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On August 31 2011 06:31 Ghost-z wrote:
1 Chronoboost saves you only ~7 seconds per use, not 10.
Ever been to school? Cite reliable sources bro. cite cite cite...
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On August 31 2011 06:31 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:50 freetgy wrote:On August 31 2011 05:34 GeekAbaddon wrote:
In regards to carriers and chronoboosts, would it be a viable (albeit it micro auto feature) that you could set Chronoboost permantly on a structure(s) at reduced % not 50% but maybe 30% for the likes of carrier build times to get them out quicker? And it kept going until ran outer energy? Would at least mean carriers could be quickened at least in production. I'll probably get flamed for post but was just a thought before laddering chronoboost on carriers isn't worth it, as much as carriers are not worth it. a carrier builds in 120s 1 chronoboosts saves you 10s means 110s thats a build time reduction of less then 9% a fully boosted carrier will build in 80s (meaning 4 chronoboosts wasted on it) Carriers are countered by the same unit that counters Colossus, thus Carrier are easier to counter, because you build them up slower then colossus. 1 Chronoboost saves you only ~7 seconds per use, not 10.
No, it does save you 10 seconds. It causes the production to increase by 50% for 20 seconds. This means that for 20 seconds it works at 1.5 times the normal production rate. 20x1.5=30. 30 - 20 = 10.
Also, link two posts above.
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On August 31 2011 01:46 Soulish wrote:
I would really like to see CB able to be used on units, with the effect of halving skill cooldown/halving warp prism's mode change time, and halving build time (for carriers only pretty much).
Not trolling, I'd like to see Chrono Boost be used on units too, but instead increasing attack rate and movement speed by 50% for 20s a la Stim. OK. OK. That's obviously OP (let Terrans keep that mechanic), how about just a movement speed increase? It's not like you can press a key and make an entire control group stutter-step and be applauded for insane micro. It'd just be viable for a limited number of times (Nexus energy) on select units in key situations.
Edit:
Re: 7s CB. I think he's referring to probes.
Edit 2:
Re: 7s CB. NVM, CB reduces probe production by 5.7s
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CB increasing unit mana regen would be cool.
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On August 31 2011 03:34 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:26 Walruslisk wrote:
hellion nerf is great i think because without it T would continue to destroy Zs w/o roaches, roaches in TvZ are terrible imo Roaches basically make meching in TvZ damn near impossible. Did you get your opinion from Idra?
Huh? 200 roach based army vs 200 siege tank or thor based army gets stomped. Roaches are horrible against mech, it's just that zerglings are even worse against siege tanks and hellions. The only way to really stop mech is with mass muta, or mass lings and somehow take advantage of out of position or low counts of siege tanks/hellions (like unsieged, or FG on hellions + lings).
Zerg really has no anti-armor at the moment. Zerg basically has no counter to the thor or colossi.
Anyways:
The infestor nerf doesn't really seem like a nerf, to all those who say "rofl infestors were op c?!". It still kills basically everything in the same number of hits. I'm not really sure what the point of the FG nerf is, but I imagine it's for TvZ since it makes it so ghosts and vikings take one more hit to kill. It still means marine/tank and mid-game TvZ will get stomped by infestors if they aren't prepared, and I doubt anyone will stop QQing about infestors because of it.
I however don't really like how the damage reduction reduces damage to the reason infestors were buffed in the first place though: Against ZvP deathballs of VR/Colossi and the like, as they now require about 2 more FG to kill.
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On August 31 2011 07:59 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:34 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 31 2011 03:26 Walruslisk wrote:
hellion nerf is great i think because without it T would continue to destroy Zs w/o roaches, roaches in TvZ are terrible imo Roaches basically make meching in TvZ damn near impossible. Did you get your opinion from Idra? Huh? 200 roach based army vs 200 siege tank or thor based army gets stomped. Roaches are horrible against mech, it's just that zerglings are even worse against siege tanks and hellions. The only way to really stop mech is with mass muta, or mass lings and somehow take advantage of out of position or low counts of siege tanks/hellions (like unsieged, or FG on hellions + lings). Zerg really has no anti-armor at the moment. Zerg basically has no counter to the thor or colossi. Anyways:The infestor nerf doesn't really seem like a nerf, to all those who say "rofl infestors were op c?!". It still kills basically everything in the same number of hits. I'm not really sure what the point of the FG nerf is, but I imagine it's for TvZ since it makes it so ghosts and vikings take one more hit to kill. It still means marine/tank and mid-game TvZ will get stomped by infestors if they aren't prepared, and I doubt anyone will stop QQing about infestors because of it. I however don't really like how the damage reduction reduces damage to the reason infestors were buffed in the first place though: Against ZvP deathballs of VR/Colossi and the like, as they now require about 2 more FG to kill.
who goes pure roaches against siege tank/thor?
throw some infestors in there and tech to brood lords.
cmon man.
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Roaches are horrible against mech
False. Roaches are horrible against 10 pre sieged tanks. Roaches are amazing agaisnt thors, hellions, unsieged tanks, and the genereal immobility of mech. Ultras are terrible against mech.
And if you are only making one unit battle after battle as zerg then it doesnt matter, you deserve to lose.
Zerg really has no anti-armor at the moment. Fungal growth. Also, do you know how much armor reduces the DPS of roaches. It's .5 dps reduction.
A +1 attack roach firing at a unit with +2 armor has the same DPS as an un-upgraded roach firing at a unit with zero armor.
Combined with their incredible ability to focus fire and stutter step INTO the middle of battles, they are exceptional at killing priority targets. A fully armor upgraded ultra vs +3 roach balances out to .5 dps more for the roach compared to a zero armor upgrade ultra(with base 1 armor) and zero attack upgraded roach. Thats 450 gas worth of upgrades for the roach, and 825 gas worth of upgrades for the Ultra, the most armor up-gradable unit in the game. Now think about a unit that doesnt have base armor or an extra +2 armor upgrade. A +3 attack roach vs +3 armor "light" unit gives +1.5 DPS compared to un-upgraded counterparts. Marines do not gain this advantage vs armor, nor do lings, stalkers, zealots, hydras, marauders vs non-armored units, voids, landed vikings, ghosts, reapers, sentries, queens, etc, all of which suffer a full 1 DPS reduction from armor.
Roaches are anti-armor.
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How about:
upgradable blue flame into rainbow color (+10)
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I'd like to see ultralisks used a bit more, being a zerg myself. Hopefully they'll be more viable mid-game yet, the counter to them is marines as T. Especially if you micro marines like a boss. I'd like to see a buff on ultra that isn't the training time. I didn't really see that the issue, more of an armour or possible speed increase. I find myself never able to catch up with marines.
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^FG and using lings to surround stops marines from 'countering' ultras. Ultras rape through terran (there's a great post about ultra/baneling being the best combo against terran). The problem is that mass siege tank and their hive requirement making them very hard to field, that and infestor/BL being a better combo. The destiny baneling rape analogy is relevant.
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On August 31 2011 07:59 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:34 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 31 2011 03:26 Walruslisk wrote:
hellion nerf is great i think because without it T would continue to destroy Zs w/o roaches, roaches in TvZ are terrible imo Roaches basically make meching in TvZ damn near impossible. Did you get your opinion from Idra? Huh? 200 roach based army vs 200 siege tank or thor based army gets stomped. Roaches are horrible against mech, it's just that zerglings are even worse against siege tanks and hellions. The only way to really stop mech is with mass muta, or mass lings and somehow take advantage of out of position or low counts of siege tanks/hellions (like unsieged, or FG on hellions + lings). Zerg really has no anti-armor at the moment. Zerg basically has no counter to the thor or colossi.
Not only are Roaches more cost-effective than Thors, they're much easier to produce.
Equal numbers, Roaches win easily, so long as they target-fire.
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I just wish more people would actually play on the PTR server instead of just bitching about theoretical scenarious on a forum blizzard won't read.....
Last time I tried there was 5 users online, hard to test anything then.
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On August 31 2011 11:13 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 07:59 Belial88 wrote:On August 31 2011 03:34 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 31 2011 03:26 Walruslisk wrote:
hellion nerf is great i think because without it T would continue to destroy Zs w/o roaches, roaches in TvZ are terrible imo Roaches basically make meching in TvZ damn near impossible. Did you get your opinion from Idra? Huh? 200 roach based army vs 200 siege tank or thor based army gets stomped. Roaches are horrible against mech, it's just that zerglings are even worse against siege tanks and hellions. The only way to really stop mech is with mass muta, or mass lings and somehow take advantage of out of position or low counts of siege tanks/hellions (like unsieged, or FG on hellions + lings). Zerg really has no anti-armor at the moment. Zerg basically has no counter to the thor or colossi. Not only are Roaches more cost-effective than Thors, they're much easier to produce. Equal numbers, Roaches win easily, so long as they target-fire.
They are not supply effective, especially with siege tank support. That's the big problem.
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Wait so the infestor nerf still takes the same amount of fungals to kill the same amount of army?
edit: just tested.
takes 3 Fungals to kill HT/sentry.
4 fungals to kill stalkers
like 9 to kill collosous.
on PTR;
same exact numbers above...
-___-
AND ultras pop so much faster now too? decrease immortal build time PLZZZZZZZ or remove infestor energy upgrade like they did with KA.
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EPT
