Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. (because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono and tech eventually runs dry and chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Just quoted a chunk, but very well said. I find that despite not being as fundamentally powerful as mules, zerg macro mechanics make the most sense and are the most useful for their army structure (and very needed I might add)
he's quite wrong actually.
i find that comparing chronoboost to reactors to highlight the protoss late game deficiency is pretty dumb... the correct answer is to MAKE MORE GATEWAYS.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
The post vaguely touched upon the comparison. What I took from it was the comment about the core macro mechanics of each race and their differences, and the lack of protoss having chrono be useful into the lategame. At some point your not going to be chrono boosting your upgrades, and your barely going to need it for your workers. You end up with massive amounts of nexus with tons of extra energy that doesn't really go into anything but occasionally CBing your WGs on a defensive warp-in.
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. (because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono and tech eventually runs dry and chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Just quoted a chunk, but very well said. I find that despite not being as fundamentally powerful as mules, zerg macro mechanics make the most sense and are the most useful for their army structure (and very needed I might add)
he's quite wrong actually.
i find that comparing chronoboost to reactors to highlight the protoss late game deficiency is pretty dumb... the correct answer is to MAKE MORE GATEWAYS.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
The post vaguely touched upon the comparison. What I took from it was the comment about the core macro mechanics of each race and their differences, and the lack of protoss having chrono be useful into the lategame. At some point your not going to be chrono boosting your upgrades, and your barely going to need it for your workers. You end up with massive amounts of nexus with tons of extra energy that doesn't really go into anything but occasionally CBing your WGs on a defensive warp-in.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a pro game with no more forge upgrades to get, or robo units needed ASAP, or stargate units needed ASAP.
Games that long aren't even about unit production anymore anyway, as everyone has a billion unit producing structures by then and it's all about being cost efficient. In super lategame all races macro mechanics become fairly useless.
Games that long aren't even about unit production anymore anyway, as everyone has a billion unit producing structures by then and it's all about being cost efficient. In super lategame all races macro mechanics become fairly useless
Mule farming to remove scv supply and larva pooling is useless late game your right.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
And you are also correct. Because getting out colossus 33% faster for a higher amount of spent mouse apm is also very effective against terrans ability to hit v button a few extra times and get twice as many vikings as fast. same goes for double marines and medivacs vs 33% faster warp ins that require high mouse apm, while terran can pool a significantly larger amount of mules and pure keyboard macro with reactors.
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. (because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono and tech eventually runs dry and chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Just quoted a chunk, but very well said. I find that despite not being as fundamentally powerful as mules, zerg macro mechanics make the most sense and are the most useful for their army structure (and very needed I might add)
he's quite wrong actually.
i find that comparing chronoboost to reactors to highlight the protoss late game deficiency is pretty dumb... the correct answer is to MAKE MORE GATEWAYS.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
The post vaguely touched upon the comparison. What I took from it was the comment about the core macro mechanics of each race and their differences, and the lack of protoss having chrono be useful into the lategame. At some point your not going to be chrono boosting your upgrades, and your barely going to need it for your workers. You end up with massive amounts of nexus with tons of extra energy that doesn't really go into anything but occasionally CBing your WGs on a defensive warp-in.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a pro game with no more forge upgrades to get, or robo units needed ASAP, or stargate units needed ASAP.
Games that long aren't even about unit production anymore anyway, as everyone has a billion unit producing structures by then and it's all about being cost efficient. In super lategame all races macro mechanics become fairly useless.
I think the point he's making is that CB is a lot more situational than either orbitals or larva inject.
warpgates is extremly bad in regards you need to put camera away from your army and you need to click on the mouse to warp in stuff where as terran just need to select barracks and press keyboard shortcut this is huge dont even mention chronoboosting warp gate that is just not feasible on battlenet 2.0 because of the lag
I fail to see how economic boost mechanics are "fundamentally flawed." They might or might not be imbalanced but that's another issue.
I think by flawed he means that they cant be balanced properly because whenever they are balanced for one portion of the game, they become imbalanced in another, if you make mules too weak then terran early game is f***ed, but too strong and late game terran is overpowered. An if you balance it just right then you are actually going to see a stupid amount of two base all ins and timings because thats when mules will reach there max effectiveness. The same goes for chrono boost and and queen injects.
Their are a few fundamentally flawed aspects to this design. And they may point to the reason Protoss has not seen great success compared to the other races.
1) Almost immediately into the start of the game you have a building that regenerates mana at a constant rate and even has a pretty lenient mana cap. What this means is that you can pool chrono or mules and then fire them all at a gold base, or fire them all at a really fast tech switch.
- why it is flawed: It makes constant solid macro less important (except for zerg). Let me clarify and say it is still extremely important, but you can actually be behind a full cycle and really not feel the consequence. Anything over one cycle i feel like you could have had the minerals(terran) or tech(protoss) or units(zerg) out sooner and it really does hurt you.
2) because these mechanics can theoretically (and should) be used at a constant rate throughout the entire game, you see the effects of them spiral out of control if an opponent is just one base up on an opponent. It no longer means more income or a positional advantage, it means that that player immediately has more "macro energy".
- why it is flawed: Terran and zerg can easily make in base hatcheries and orbitals specifically for increased mana energy, early and late game. Terran can lift off and expo later and zerg will always benifit from a macro hatch since they can actually fall behind in injects quite easily. Toss however cannot do this. Chrono boost is good early game and mid game, but in the late game it is just too hard to keep up with terran and zerg macro energy. The only time you EVER see a toss gain an advantage in macro energy without out expanding is when they FE vs Zerg. Think about that and then think about how much macro energy plays a part in SC2.
As a sidenote, zerg can't afford to fall behind in spending macro energy, but at the same time they can pool larva and most easily spend resources purely for more macro energy.
TL DR:
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. Because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono, and tech eventually runs dry, They are not as adaptable as the other races. Chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. (because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono and tech eventually runs dry and chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Just quoted a chunk, but very well said. I find that despite not being as fundamentally powerful as mules, zerg macro mechanics make the most sense and are the most useful for their army structure (and very needed I might add)
he's quite wrong actually.
i find that comparing chronoboost to reactors to highlight the protoss late game deficiency is pretty dumb... the correct answer is to MAKE MORE GATEWAYS.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
The post vaguely touched upon the comparison. What I took from it was the comment about the core macro mechanics of each race and their differences, and the lack of protoss having chrono be useful into the lategame. At some point your not going to be chrono boosting your upgrades, and your barely going to need it for your workers. You end up with massive amounts of nexus with tons of extra energy that doesn't really go into anything but occasionally CBing your WGs on a defensive warp-in.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a pro game with no more forge upgrades to get, or robo units needed ASAP, or stargate units needed ASAP.
Games that long aren't even about unit production anymore anyway, as everyone has a billion unit producing structures by then and it's all about being cost efficient. In super lategame all races macro mechanics become fairly useless.
I think the point he's making is that CB is a lot more situational than either orbitals or larva inject.
Well yes, but my point is those situations (forge upgrades and long-buildtime units) occur for almost every game. It's very rare to see games where chrono is no longer useful.
I like the flexibility personally. Can chrono probes if they're playing a harass game, upgrades if it's headed for the long game, or units for rapid defence or a timing attack.
warpgates is extremly bad in regards you need to put camera away from your army and you need to click on the mouse to warp in stuff where as terran just need to select barracks and press keyboard shortcut this is huge dont even mention chronoboosting warp gate that is just not feasible on battlenet 2.0 because of the lag
Having to look away from your army is certainly a downside, but chronoing gateways has nothing whatever to do with lag :/
As nice as being able to CB certain things, its only to match BOs that zerg/terran can pull off without CBs in the first place. What I think the point being is, that protoss needs a better solid late game macro mechanic, not just "speeding up" production on WG or attack ups.
On August 30 2011 22:37 CarlaBruni wrote: warpgates is extremly bad in regards you need to put camera away from your army and you need to click on the mouse to warp in stuff where as terran just need to select barracks and press keyboard shortcut this is huge dont even mention chronoboosting warp gate that is just not feasible on battlenet 2.0 because of the lag
Zerg needs to do the same to get their injects and creep spread going on. I would even argue that spreading creep is more of a pain since most pro's don't just make 1tumor but more.
Macro energy on buildings, Terran: mineral income, Toss: faster tech/units, Zerg: mass units/larva pooling
It may be good or bad for SC2, but it is probably one ****** to try and balance for late mid and early game with three different races. I strongly feel like toss is too weak in regards to macro energy late game and that it is not balanced. (because toss cannot make extra nexus purely for chrono and tech eventually runs dry and chrono boost on units hardly holds up to reactors and larva pooling (both are more productive and easier to execute than continuous chrono), where as minerals and mass units are always useful, especially late game
Just quoted a chunk, but very well said. I find that despite not being as fundamentally powerful as mules, zerg macro mechanics make the most sense and are the most useful for their army structure (and very needed I might add)
he's quite wrong actually.
i find that comparing chronoboost to reactors to highlight the protoss late game deficiency is pretty dumb... the correct answer is to MAKE MORE GATEWAYS.
chronoboost increases the production of everything, reactor only increases the production of marines, hellions, medivacs and vikings.
The post vaguely touched upon the comparison. What I took from it was the comment about the core macro mechanics of each race and their differences, and the lack of protoss having chrono be useful into the lategame. At some point your not going to be chrono boosting your upgrades, and your barely going to need it for your workers. You end up with massive amounts of nexus with tons of extra energy that doesn't really go into anything but occasionally CBing your WGs on a defensive warp-in.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a pro game with no more forge upgrades to get, or robo units needed ASAP, or stargate units needed ASAP.
Games that long aren't even about unit production anymore anyway, as everyone has a billion unit producing structures by then and it's all about being cost efficient. In super lategame all races macro mechanics become fairly useless.
I think the point he's making is that CB is a lot more situational than either orbitals or larva inject.
Well yes, but my point is those situations (forge upgrades and long-buildtime units) occur for almost every game. It's very rare to see games where chrono is no longer useful.
I like the flexibility personally. Can chrono probes if they're playing a harass game, upgrades if it's headed for the long game, or units for rapid defence or a timing attack.
warpgates is extremly bad in regards you need to put camera away from your army and you need to click on the mouse to warp in stuff where as terran just need to select barracks and press keyboard shortcut this is huge dont even mention chronoboosting warp gate that is just not feasible on battlenet 2.0 because of the lag
Having to look away from your army is certainly a downside, but chronoing gateways has nothing whatever to do with lag :/
Well, look at it this way:
MULEs allow terran to get rid of most of his workers, maintain a good income, but have a much larger army in the late game. Or he could not rid of his workers and use the energy for scan, giving him an edge in map awareness and positioning.
Larva injects combined with crawler canceling allows zerg to have >200 and fast reinforcements.
CB does nothing for the toss, who is already 200 supply. Chances are most of his upgrades are done, and he has 3 full nexi and no opportunity to spend CB. What I would like to see is an additional purpose for that nexus energy. In another thread I proposed a possibility of "void link", an ability that can recharge shields instantly - much like casting CB on critical units in your army (colossi, archons, immortals, carriers, etc). That would give the protoss a similar advantage in the late game, compared to the other two races. This would obviously synergize quite nicely with the paradigm of protoss. Meaning those few essential tech units could be made more robust with some good micro/APM.
On August 30 2011 22:37 CarlaBruni wrote: warpgates is extremly bad in regards you need to put camera away from your army and you need to click on the mouse to warp in stuff where as terran just need to select barracks and press keyboard shortcut this is huge dont even mention chronoboosting warp gate that is just not feasible on battlenet 2.0 because of the lag
Zerg needs to do the same to get their injects and creep spread going on. I would even argue that spreading creep is more of a pain since most pro's don't just make 1tumor but more.
you can inject via the minimap and possibly with creep aswell you cant warp in on the mini map.
On August 30 2011 22:21 frontliner2 wrote: I;m so switching to Toss When on 2 bases
2-3 robotics pumping immortals 4 gate pumping Blink Stalkers Bring a Warp Prism for warping in Stalkers (nice buff hehe)
Protoss is already OP enough imho
Ye that famous 2 bases 3 robotics pumping out immortals non-stop strat while massing stalkers, teching to blink and +2 attack + sentries to cut the opponent's army. Blizzard will definitely have to watch out for that
On August 30 2011 22:21 frontliner2 wrote: I;m so switching to Toss When on 2 bases
2-3 robotics pumping immortals 4 gate pumping Blink Stalkers Bring a Warp Prism for warping in Stalkers (nice buff hehe)
Protoss is already OP enough imho
Ye that famous 2 bases 3 robotics pumping out immortals non-stop strat while massing stalkers, teching to blink and +2 attack + sentries to cut the opponent's army. Blizzard will definitely have to watch out for that
On August 30 2011 22:54 IVN wrote:. In another thread I proposed a possibility of "void link", an ability that can recharge shields instantly - much like casting CB on critical units in your army (colossi, archons, immortals, carriers, etc). That would give the protoss a similar advantage in the late game, compared to the other two races. This would obviously synergize quite nicely with the paradigm of protoss. Meaning those few essential tech units could be made more robust with some good micro/APM.
all races can dump into spines or just sacrifice most of their workers late game with tons of minerals banked and only 1-2 expansions left to mine to get a crushing 170-180 food army they dont need all thoose probes/drones annymore to bank even more minerals or mine the last expansion stop complaining about chrono btw, its the most op mechanism ingame giving 3-3 free every game, does annyone toss even realise how long it takes for the other races to upgrade? i would trade orbital and pf for chrono+some random scan method anny day
annyway nive patch, feel immortal range buf might be realy strong, the immortals go from getting stuck behind own lines not firing a shot to doing sick damage:s
On August 30 2011 22:54 IVN wrote:. In another thread I proposed a possibility of "void link", an ability that can recharge shields instantly - much like casting CB on critical units in your army (colossi, archons, immortals, carriers, etc). That would give the protoss a similar advantage in the late game, compared to the other two races. This would obviously synergize quite nicely with the paradigm of protoss. Meaning those few essential tech units could be made more robust with some good micro/APM.
Random thought in regards to 1/1/1: what if immortals did a small amount of splash damage? It'd help give some wiggle room when faced with big bio pushes before we have our AoE units, and with the range buff it could help make immortals more of a core unit. Maybe make it a cyber core upgrade?
Theoretical question. Toss air is void (thank you) vs T because Vikings have long range, are reactor-able and are relatively cheap. Would P air be more viable if Vikings cost 3 supply as opposed to two?
edit: and the Immo AoE upgrade does sound very intriguing
How about making CB twice as effective AND twice as expensive without touching the duration of the chronoboost itself?
that way 2 chronoboost would empty a nexus' energy already, instead of 4. It would make it easier to manage the energy and you wouldnt need to chronoboost 20 buildings every time you return to your base without actually being able to use 20 buildings.
On August 30 2011 23:16 Eishi_Ki wrote: Theoretical question. Toss air is void (thank you) vs T because Vikings have long range, are reactor-able and are relatively cheap. Would P air be more viable if Vikings cost 3 supply as opposed to two?
edit: and the Immo AoE upgrade does sound very intriguing
That would be too strong, and make colossi obsolete.
Immortals would counter every ground unit in the game, while being able to tank quite a lot of damage.
On August 30 2011 23:17 beute wrote: How about making CB twice as effective AND twice as expensive without touching the duration of the chronoboost itself?
that way 2 chronoboost would empty a nexus' energy already, instead of 4. It would make it easier to manage the energy and you wouldnt need to chronoboost 20 buildings every time you return to your base without actually being able to use 20 buildings.
Bad idea.
Nont only would it reduce the APM requirement and thus lower the skill ceiling of the protoss race, it would also reduce the flexibility of chrono boost. The best thing about chrono is iths felxibility. Early game you can cast one to get 2 probes and one stalker faster, or 2 probes and faster wg upgrade, and so on. If it were to last 2x as long and be 2x as expensive, you could only choose between chronoing 4 probes, 1 extremely fas stalker or much faster wg upgrade.
EPT
