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ATTN Kespa: Stop ignoring the ENglish market! - Page 7

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Tadah
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden120 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 07:57:33
July 04 2011 07:56 GMT
#121
I'm just sick of all the choppy streams and all the other distractions that one has to endure while trying to watch Brood War that I feel compelled to, for that reason alone, to sign under any initiative that gives me the option of removing said stream-choppyness and other various forms of watchability and enjoyability decreasing factors associated with restreams. If anyone tried to watch Jangbi vs Jaedong yersterday, you'll know where I'm coming from.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
July 04 2011 07:56 GMT
#122
Who are you and why do you think you represent the "foreign BW community?"
TranslatorBaa!
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
July 04 2011 07:56 GMT
#123
someone with good internet should write a script to start downloading all of the nevake videos so when this idiot gets nevake shut down we can get it back up in time or something
Writer
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
July 04 2011 07:57 GMT
#124
On July 04 2011 16:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 16:23 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:15 Kiante wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.

You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...


that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.


gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.


i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.


That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?


? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.

i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.

Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.

Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.


well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.


While we appreciate your enthusiasm in helping the community I think you may have misjudged the priorities of the existing bw community.

I think Nevake is not just a secondary issue, but the primary issue thats driving our opinions atm.
Nevake represents not just a way to view vods, but as an archive of precious bw history, NOWHERE else can you easily find an arbitrary proleague or starleague game from several years back and watch it.

I think our primary concern is in fact that you are viewing this as a secondary issue. If we get Kespa to listen to the idea before sorting out the details, the risk is that this crucial archive will be lost forever. Because at this stage, there is very little Kespa can offer us on top of what we already have, and unless Kespa manages to get it exactly right (eg make vods easily accessible to our satisfaction AND keep a giant archive of historical games) then whatever they will do will likely be more destructive than constructive to the already existing infrastructure.

I appreciate that the current setup with youtube in no way benefits Kespa, and I'm sure that the community would be willing voluntarily to help Kespa in any way that does not threaten the good things we already have going (eg by releasing their own vods but leaving Nevake alone, or even disallowing Nevake to upload new vods that they have, but leavign the current archive alone). I hazard to guess that the currently overwhelming negative response you have received from the community in this thread stems from the what you are asking the community to risk that there is very little we can gain.

The fact of the matter is, unless and until we can be sure that Kespa will be able to provide a satisfactory service to replace what we already have, the possibility of losing Nevake poses a vital and unacceptable risk to our existing infrastructure.


unfortunately, i think even though we have a lot of feelings for nevake, past examples prove these feelings will not stop viewers from changing their viewing habits . For example, everyone hated comedy central's decision to remove the Dailyshow from youtube and to use their own crappy player. People still comment on how shitty the ads are and the player is. But people still watch.

The daily show risked the goodwill of their fan base by doing this. But now they have a revenue generating model while also being free. That, ultimately, is the goal.
manner
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
July 04 2011 07:58 GMT
#125
On July 04 2011 16:54 Black[CAT] wrote:
Whatever happens, destroying nevake or any archive of that sort must never be allowed.

Or killing the streams. I have a rather bad connection and the settings of almost all of them are perfect. I doubt an official stream is able to do the same...apart from requiring me to install plugins/do other stuff.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 08:01:57
July 04 2011 07:58 GMT
#126
The article itself is well written and good. it does not deserve the hatred it gets.

On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote:
P.S. Please leave the Fomos/TL drama at the door! This thread is not about that. Hopefully there can be an amicable solution between the two soon.


Of course this thread is about Fomos and TL. It is about Fomos vs. TL for being the prime site of the English market.

What dows Fomos have?
They have contacts to Kespa because of their Korean section. Therefore they have some exclusive photos and intervies. The English section has two mediocre article writers and an extremely small user base.

What does Fomos want
?
The TL users to use their site instead of TL.


What does TL have?
At the moment Teamliquid is synonymous with the English BW scene. They have multiple very good article writers, a unique database, teamliquid.net is the best programmed site I have ever been on and they have an active community.

What does TL want?
Here it starts getting interesting.
ATM Teamliquid is resting on its glorious past. Unlike with SC2 the site does nothing to expand in BW. If Kespa wants to expand to the English market the natural thing would be to go to TL and make a deal. Of course what usually happens in this nepotistic world would be that they go to Fomos instead of TL to do so because the contact is already there.
In this case however I think that a Kespa/Fomos would be doomed to fail. The Fomos English staff is just not good and big enough and fighting the current TL monopoly on English Broodwar would just destroy the English BW community overall.

So the optimum would be a TL / Kespa alliance. I know this seems might be impossible because of the general stupidity and ignorance and nepotism of big companies. But in the case of English growth it would not only be the best option it is in fact the only option. A stable stream would be a first big step. English commentators would also be a very good idea. People might say that they enjoy the incomprehensible Korean casting but I am sure that as soon as a new good English casting team is found people will love it.


On a side note taking down Nevake would be suicidical for any English market growth. The foreign community would not forgive that.
kdgns
Profile Joined May 2009
United States2427 Posts
July 04 2011 07:59 GMT
#127
On July 04 2011 16:57 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 16:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:23 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:15 Kiante wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:
[quote]
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...


that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.


gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.


i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.


That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?


? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.

i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.

Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.

Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.


well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.


While we appreciate your enthusiasm in helping the community I think you may have misjudged the priorities of the existing bw community.

I think Nevake is not just a secondary issue, but the primary issue thats driving our opinions atm.
Nevake represents not just a way to view vods, but as an archive of precious bw history, NOWHERE else can you easily find an arbitrary proleague or starleague game from several years back and watch it.

I think our primary concern is in fact that you are viewing this as a secondary issue. If we get Kespa to listen to the idea before sorting out the details, the risk is that this crucial archive will be lost forever. Because at this stage, there is very little Kespa can offer us on top of what we already have, and unless Kespa manages to get it exactly right (eg make vods easily accessible to our satisfaction AND keep a giant archive of historical games) then whatever they will do will likely be more destructive than constructive to the already existing infrastructure.

I appreciate that the current setup with youtube in no way benefits Kespa, and I'm sure that the community would be willing voluntarily to help Kespa in any way that does not threaten the good things we already have going (eg by releasing their own vods but leaving Nevake alone, or even disallowing Nevake to upload new vods that they have, but leavign the current archive alone). I hazard to guess that the currently overwhelming negative response you have received from the community in this thread stems from the what you are asking the community to risk that there is very little we can gain.

The fact of the matter is, unless and until we can be sure that Kespa will be able to provide a satisfactory service to replace what we already have, the possibility of losing Nevake poses a vital and unacceptable risk to our existing infrastructure.


unfortunately, i think even though we have a lot of feelings for nevake, past examples prove these feelings will not stop viewers from changing their viewing habits . For example, everyone hated comedy central's decision to remove the Dailyshow from youtube and to use their own crappy player. People still comment on how shitty the ads are and the player is. But people still watch.

The daily show risked the goodwill of their fan base by doing this. But now they have a revenue generating model while also being free. That, ultimately, is the goal.



Daily show also removed their videos from hulu but eventually put them back, lets skip the middle step and just keep the videos online then?
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
July 04 2011 07:59 GMT
#128
if you have to look at the business side of thing, KESPA would be much better off reaching to english speaking community 2 years ago than now. With all the self producing content from the sc2 community. BW will now be "history" and the conent will never be as high quality as sc2 due to the outdated engine of the game itself. It is true that there is a good number of non-korean care about BW but it is notthing compare to the korean domestic market. I think KESPA 's best move atm is keep on doing what ever they are doing and wait for blizzard contract with GOM expired and jump in sc2.

We all know all the rumored around the BW scene: wemadefox about to disbanded, MBC does worse and worse after they complain their coach make them over train and fire him, ACE start winning games.... It is dying. Trying to sell a dead animal oversea is not only a bad bsn but also a crime.

i dont know... as a hardcore fan, im sad myself but it is what it is, SC2 is taking over.
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
July 04 2011 08:00 GMT
#129
Who's actually delusional to believe there's actually a "English market" for Broodwar LOL.

The game's dead folks. We have us who watch livestream vods at 4am cause that's what we've been doing for years. No one else is gonna come join us lol.
TranslatorBaa!
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
July 04 2011 08:01 GMT
#130
On July 04 2011 16:58 Fenrax wrote:
The article itself is well written and good. it does not deserve the hatred it gets.

Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote:
P.S. Please leave the Fomos/TL drama at the door! This thread is not about that. Hopefully there can be an amicable solution between the two soon.


Of course this thread is about Fomos and TL. It is about Fomos vs. TL for being the prime site of the English market.

What dows Fomos have?
They have contacts to Kespa because of their Korean section. Therefore they have some exclusive photos and intervies. The English section has two mediocre article writers and an extremely small user base.

What does Fomos want
?
The TL users to use their site instead of TL.


What does TL have?
At the moment Teamliquid is synonymous with the English BW scene. They have multiple very good article writers, a unique database, teamliquid.net is the best programmed site I have ever been on and they have an active community.

What does TL want?
Here it starts getting interesting.
ATM Teamliquid is resting on its glorious past. Unlike with SC2 the site does nothing to expand in BW. If Kespa wants to expand to the English market the natural thing would be to go to TL and make a deal. Of course what usually happens in this nepotistic world would be that they go to Fomos instead of TL to do so because the contact is already there.
In this case however I think that a Kespa/Fomos would be doomed to fail. The Fomos English staff is just not good and big enough and fighting the current TL monopoly on English Broodwar would just destroy the English BW community overall.

So the optimum would be a TL / Kespa alliance. I know this seems might be impossible because of the general stupidity and ignorance and nepotism of big companies. But in the case of English growth it would not only be the best option it is in fact the only option. A stable stream would be a first big step. English commentators would also be a very good idea. People might say that they enjoy the incomprehensible Korean casting but I am sure that as soon as a new good English is found people will love him.


On a side note taking down Nevake would be suicidical for any English market growth. The foreign community would not forgive that.


ur right about a lot of the things uve written but i dont want to discuss that in this thread. If you want, we can discuss this over PM. But to do so in this thread = immediate derailment. please don't!
manner
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
July 04 2011 08:01 GMT
#131
There's no English casters anywhere near the level of Korean casting so what's the point? Seriously see a translation even partially and they are another level.
DNB
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland995 Posts
July 04 2011 08:01 GMT
#132
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
xBillehx
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1289 Posts
July 04 2011 08:02 GMT
#133
On July 04 2011 16:27 d_so wrote:
i think it should be free. But i dont think it should be on youtube. Youtube does nothing for KESPA. For kespa to run a free model, it needs a lot of clicks and it needs those clicks to go directly to kespa. Registration makes these clicks even more accurate as u can get accurate demographic numbers.
I want to comment on this point because many Korean music companies have now become partners on Youtube and regularly upload videos/MVs with millions of clicks there. Youtube is a great marketing tool for the entire world and those companies that take advantage of it are reeking the benefits of worldwide advertising and a little something on the side. Maybe take a look into SM & YG's youtube business model and research that. I'm not saying registration on their own site is bad, but Youtube is definitely not worthless in this area. Take a look at these numbers as an example:

SM's Youtube:
Channel Views:14,398,968
Total Upload Views:477,415,479
Subscribers:407,043

YG's Channel:
Channel Views:6,604,942
Total Upload Views:284,828,156
Subscribers:307,856

Now obviously SM & YG are way more popular than BW but I'm just using it as an example that Youtube does propose a good way to market videos worldwide and make a little something on the side with the partnership. Although there's still the problem that this will probably destroy the Nevake account.

With that said, I agree with most of the people in this thread. I don't think it's a good idea. I mean the foreign BW scene is NOT going to suddenly grow overseas with overseas currently focusing on SC2 and the BW fans that exist now are content with the Nevake model. I feel like it'd do more damage than good if KeSPA tried to regulate (pay attention to) the foreign BW fan scene.

If it were possible to have them start uploading to Youtube as well and leave the Nevake account alone I'm sure it'd be great, but I just don't see that happening. It's just not worth the risk imho. China is BW's best bet right now.
Taengoo ♥
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
July 04 2011 08:02 GMT
#134
I'd pay for subtitled korean casts LOL
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 08:04:21
July 04 2011 08:02 GMT
#135
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote:
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.


It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.

Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
TranslatorBaa!
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
July 04 2011 08:06 GMT
#136
On July 04 2011 17:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote:
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.


It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.

Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.


kespa certainly agrees with you.
manner
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
July 04 2011 08:07 GMT
#137
On July 04 2011 17:06 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 17:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote:
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.


It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.

Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.


kespa certainly agrees with you.


KeSPA is correct.
TranslatorBaa!
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
July 04 2011 08:09 GMT
#138
On July 04 2011 17:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 17:06 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote:
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.


It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.

Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.


kespa certainly agrees with you.


KeSPA is correct.


and if they are, they won't listen.

but u know, most koreans don't even know about teamliquid. or about youtube.com/nevake. I bring this up with people in the know and they are surprised by how large the numbers are.

If kespa is making an informed decision to ignore the foreign market, then yeah, leave it be. But for the most part, it appears they don't know. That means they're making decisions off of ignorance.
manner
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
July 04 2011 08:10 GMT
#139
And yes someone really needs to archive Nevake on like 2x2tb hdd's. It probably won't be that much to be honest due to the low resolution. But think to the future just in case. That's not much hdd or bw cost, but you got HISTORY stored right there.
kdgns
Profile Joined May 2009
United States2427 Posts
July 04 2011 08:11 GMT
#140
On July 04 2011 17:09 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 17:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:06 d_so wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote:
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.

There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.


It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.

Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.


kespa certainly agrees with you.


KeSPA is correct.


and if they are, they won't listen.

but u know, most koreans don't even know about teamliquid. or about youtube.com/nevake. I bring this up with people in the know and they are surprised by how large the numbers are.

If kespa is making an informed decision to ignore the foreign market, then yeah, leave it be. But for the most part, it appears they don't know. That means they're making decisions off of ignorance.



Sometimes information is not a good thing, i'd rather they think the English community is 0, and not touch what we're doing, than to come here thinking they have a shot at making money and start to eliminate competition.
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