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On April 27 2012 09:37 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 09:28 sunprince wrote:On April 27 2012 08:08 Ace wrote:
Only on TL can argument happen in a thread about picking up women based on build orders. Seriously. You never see any of this crap on actual pick-up forums, because the noobs are outnumbered and quickly put in their place. Unfortunately, here on TL we have an incredibly low signal-to-noise ratio due to the high percentage of noobs, so it's pretty much a shit show. This thread has essentially devolved into Diamond and Platinum league players arguing over bad builds and basic strategy, while the Masters players (and there's no GM players here) have more or less given up trying to salvage the thread. Personally, I think most of squattin's posts and the resulting arguments need to be moved to his blog thread, leaving this thread clear for real discussions and questions. I don't suppose any mods would be willing to undertake this task? Pretty please? :D Welp. I just wrote someone in a PM that I'm thinking about dragging all of my input into blogs since it's almost impossible to actually help people in this thread when I'm busy arguing that 1+1=2 and not 5 while squattin is busy arguing that I should make a video of me standing in front of a class where I PROVE that 1+1=2 because otherwise it can't be true. Dno, I usually hop in here every 30 pages, hope something has changed, get stuck arguing basic math, realize nothing changed and move along again. In an ideal world this thread would be full of nerds who present specific spots where they're stuck with becoming better with women and other nerds who managed to find solutions for those spots. That would be productive and much more helpful for anyone. Actually now that I think of it that's not in the OP and therefor not even the topic of the thread. Welp. Bad evo, bad.
I would love to see you start a blog and answer people's advice. Seeking advice in this thread is pointless, because it's just arguing 24/7. Every time I come in here someone else is arguing with Squat and all I really want to read is people talking about pickup/pickup advice. I'm no expert in the field by any stretch but that doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between good advice and terrible advice.
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On April 27 2012 10:49 Najda wrote:
I'm no expert in the field by any stretch but that doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between good advice and terrible advice.
Most advice is super confusing for people starting out on pickup because a lot of advice is not applicable to their level. As a person becomes good, they tend to lose the ability to break down things just like r.Evo said, once you gain unconcious competence, you know the concept so well that when someone ask you advice, you are more likely to say "you just do it". Thats why naturals will tell you "just be confident". Well, that advice for a beginner is worthless because if you knew how to be confident, you would done it already.
Let me ask you two advice questions, you tell me if its good advice or bad advice.
1. Just be yourself
2. Don't care what the girl thinks / freedom from outcome
You tell me, are these advice good or bad? And can you see how this can be taken in for all the wrong reasons?
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On April 27 2012 12:12 squattincassanova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:49 Najda wrote:
I'm no expert in the field by any stretch but that doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between good advice and terrible advice. Most advice is super confusing for people starting out on pickup because a lot of advice is not applicable to their level. As a person becomes good, they tend to lose the ability to break down things just like r.Evo said, once you gain unconcious competence, you know the concept so well that when someone ask you advice, you are more likely to say "you just do it". Thats why naturals will tell you "just be confident". Well, that advice for a beginner is worthless because if you knew how to be confident, you would done it already. Let me ask you two advice questions, you tell me if its good advice or bad advice. 1. Just be yourself 2. Don't care what the girl thinks / freedom from outcome You tell me, are these advice good or bad? And can you see how this can be taken in for all the wrong reasons?
man, you are so in this PUA persona, you aren't on planet earth anymore.
constantly stating (warped) opinions as facts, not even presenting arguments when someone disagrees with you just going "well your wrong lol here is a vid of fuji"
r.evo is posting shit you probably dont want to hear, but it rings 100% true. At least give him the respect of a proper response to his points.
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This thread is constantly just the same stuff over and over again.
@khrone. Agreed.
On April 27 2012 12:12 squattincassanova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:49 Najda wrote:
I'm no expert in the field by any stretch but that doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between good advice and terrible advice. Most advice is super confusing for people starting out on pickup because a lot of advice is not applicable to their level. As a person becomes good, they tend to lose the ability to break down things just like r.Evo said, once you gain unconcious competence, you know the concept so well that when someone ask you advice, you are more likely to say "you just do it". Thats why naturals will tell you "just be confident". Well, that advice for a beginner is worthless because if you knew how to be confident, you would done it already. Let me ask you two advice questions, you tell me if its good advice or bad advice. 1. Just be yourself 2. Don't care what the girl thinks / freedom from outcome You tell me, are these advice good or bad? And can you see how this can be taken in for all the wrong reasons?
It can be good or bad. It's like saying are carbs good or bad on a diet? Well, that depends: are you insulin sensitive, are you going to have a high amount of activity, are you an athlete, can you control your satiety, what else are you doing, what are your other macros. ect.
Sure, some people will take it wrong. Others will take it right. I did it the wrong way for awhile, then fixed it.
Giving advice without context never works.
Now onto an article from mark!
Evolution
In it, it talks a lot about how people skew the evolutionary perspective for people to fit the criteria they want (ex: women evolved to be promiscuous). Anybody with an biology intro sequence would be able to tell you this stuff, but he lays it out quite nicely. This is something worth discussing, so do it :D
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That article is awesome.
The part where I don't 100% agree is this one here:
[...] The problem emerges when stereotypes are indiscriminately applied to entire populations. Even worse, is when people discriminate against whole populations in the name of science or biology without understanding the intricacies of genotypes, phenotypes, evolutionary stable strategies, or population distributions. [...]
While I completly agree with him that in reality stuff like this most likely displays in slightly skewed bell curves I would make the claim that it's not usefull to act like that is true at most points during your "pickup career".
If you are a beginner, I'd say it makes sense to overshoot towards the direction of the claim "all women want dominant men" because with that statement you force yourself to "be more dominant/alpha", which is a mindset where most beginners are incredibly far from. Once you learn what happens when you overshoot in that direction (aka: "lol, you jerk!") those who do learn from the feedback they get from their environment will slow down with their excessive alpha-like behaviour and get closer to the middle. This process continues until it just slightly swings around the real preferences of a person.
It's kind of similar to sugesting to someone who has a very defensive and macro heavy play style and wants to improve his micro that he should try playing super agressive and, when faced with the choice whether to macro or micro, always go for more micro. Stuff like that breaks up patterns and results in a more balanced style in the long run, IF either that was your plan from the beginning or if you correctly evaluate the feedback from your environment. (For the pickup case this would mean that if "lol, jerk" becomes a more and more common response from women that the problem is in your behaviour instead of "wow so many bitches today".)
Once you're at the stage where you can confidently go out and say "Ima get laid this weekend" you only need those extreme views if you want to improve in certain areas (1), or, and this is what I love it for: Screening.
If I'm able to convey during my interaction with the girl that, for example, I believe that all women are submissive I get two important reactions. One is that I convey a very strong point of view in general. That in turn creates personality. Someone who says "I hate rock and roll and I love hip-hop" suggests a stronger personality than someone who says "Uh, I like all kinds of music". The other point where screening comes in: Women who are definitly not submissive are repulsed by this attitude. (Funnily there are tons of women who claim to be repulsed but are attracted instead. The difference is usually quite obvious.) ---> I need to spend less time trying to screen something rather subtle (sexual preference) and gain knowledge about this thing way before other methods.
Imo, as long as you are aware that such a mindset is bullshit when it comes to what is "true", but helps you achieving your goals, go for it.
(1) e.g. for me my ability to create comfort/rapport was far stronger than what I assumed during the way I escalated. Since I still did escalate I always ended with those weird situations where the girl starts shit testing you before/after sex because she isn't sure if you want a relationship or just something casual. I started trying to escalate towards intimate kino within literally the first 1-5 minutes, sometimes even on a clock. Once I felt comfortable with that (and even had some situations where it actually worked), I could drop that exercise and... suddenly escalated quicker when I didn't think about it. It's just a tool for recalibration and gain more flexibility pretty much.
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On April 27 2012 08:08 Ace wrote:
Only on TL can argument happen in a thread about picking up women based on build orders.
Huehuehue 
The build order
Attract -> Comfort -> Seduce.
Its one of the supposed core foundations of pickup. A lot of problems that people face when it comes to a relationship happens because the person doesn't do the "build order" correctly. I don't really care what any one thinks, but I will explain it for the people that are here to share knowledge. I also inserted a random starcraft analogy for the lulz.
Lets drill it down into personality types.
The Seducer
Nothing -> Nothing -> Seduce
Starts and ends at the seduction phase.
You: "So uhhh hey babe, you wanna get it awnnnn"
Her: "I have a boyfriend"
You: "You have beautiful eyes"
Her: "I also have an arrest warrant"
This is the starcraft equivalent of doing a 4/6 pool. Sure it will work on rare occasions, but being able to win with a 4 pool will not make you a starcraft champion. Likewise the kind of girl that you will get, will probably not be the kind of girl you would wanna sleep with anyway.
The Nice Guy
Every guy that has made a girl blog (except Chill) on TL, falls under this category. The nice guy.
Nothing -> Comfort -> Seduce
This guy thinks that the guys who get with other girls do, because girls like arseholes. Girls are looking for sweet guys just like in the movies, right? They want someone to sweep them up off their feet, right?
The problem with this is it simply doesn't build attraction. Women get bombarded by nice guys all the time, and you are no different, you need to have something else going for you. As soon as you give the slightest flirty remark she will tell you she likes someone else, or you are going too fast, or whatever.
There is a slight paradox however, you can be "too attractive" and she will be worried about moving too fast as well. Ever wonder why even if you are a high value male, she will suddenly re-direct her attention to someone who is actually quite low value even though she never paid attention to him before? Next you hear she is talking about you, with your friend, but you can't figure out why every time you try to escalate, she tells you, you are going too fast.
I don't know the real solution to this, but what I do is to be with her, but completely destroy any sexual progress you've made and just chat like she's your friend, most of the time she will miss that connection and start giving you attention again, much like a freeze-out. If she's attracted to you, it usually works.
However keep in mind that either way, you are better off building attraction and allowing yourself to be known as a sexual partner, not just a friendly one.
In Starcraft this is the whining macro player. The player that thinks you only got out-played if its a split map 30 min game with no attacks in between (I just want a real relationship), and thinks other players are no-skill cheesing asshats (unfair, why do the assholes always get the girls).
The Player
Attract -> Nothing -> Seduce
The pseudo-popular guy. He's the friend that you look up to in high-school. Good looks, great character, very confident, he's a one of a kind stud who was lucky to be born with perfect genes. He's had sex with most girls in high-school, except for one glaring issue. He never had sex with them a second time and his relationships only lasted a week.
If you can develop enough attraction, its not that hard to take a girl to bed with you that night. However if you don't establish enough trust or mutual attraction, you end up having a hard time turning that into a relationship. Often it ends up the next day like "we had sex lol, that was so awks", "yeah, mmmm, bye", "ok bye".
Hes the guy who seems awesome at starcraft when you have no fucking clue about the starcraft scene. Hes the guy that beat all your friends, and he is in silver league oooOOOOoohhh... when you guys are still in bronze league, and neither of you have any clue what a build order is. He just happens to be born with a slightly better coordination/brain than you guys.
The Natural
Attract (with only looks or charm) -> Comfort (a bit too much) -> Seduce (a bit too little)
or
Comfort (compliment her, go straight into conversation) -> Attract (through charm) -> Seduce
He was born with great social awareness and an ability to read and react to conversational instances is almost perfect. He's the guy that always says the right thing at the right time, and his experiences he talks about always seems to be none short of amazing.
He has many platonic relationships with girls, but also a few sexual partners. He's the guy that has 300 facebook friends, as girls, that are from high school. His game is tight, but there will always be instances where it will be very difficult to close.
Instead of over-coming challenges, he puts himself in situations where he is at an advantage. Chatting in coffee shops, distancing himself from AMOGs, inviting 5 girls to a bar and only inviting 2 of his guy friends, only hitting on randoms if the chance of blowing out is less than 10%, going for that girl next door, never approaching a 10, etc.
For most people, this would be good enough, and even for a lot of PUA's this level is good enough.
This is the masters level amateur, some people got there easily, and some people had to grind out a million games. In the end this is the kind of level that a lot of people are "satisfied" with, and they feel like they understand the game enough to have a discussion about.
The Venusian Artist << lol
Or the PUA or the uber-natural.
Attract -> Comfort -> Seduce.
This is the persona that PUA's are trying to achieve. A person that understands and can flawlessly transition from one state to the next, and overcome any obstacles. Everything makes sense, every step of the way, and there will never be a time where he doesn't know the right course of action. He can even sneak under the radar and steal girls right under that high school jocks nose and not get bashed for it. If there is a girl he wants to get, he will get it.
Just because you can get 2 lays a week without trying, doesn't mean anything, because with PUA you would be getting twice as many with twice as hot girls. The goal of a PUA is the mastery, and the ability to distinctly label steps even to a person who has no clue and turn him into a machine.
Again I don't really care if you think its a crock of shit, don't really care, to me it makes sense, this is one concept that I thought I'd like to share, opinions welcome.
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Urgs. I have to admit I dislike a cookie-cutter approach like that. Like, it can be an okay guideline but imo it gets you more into trouble if you try to stick with it in the long run and it also means you're going to miss opportunities because you only see those chains of events.
Opening with comfort is fine. A lot of the stuff that works great in social circle or indirect settings in general is basically building rapport/comfort while creating attraction. Like, those phases are all cool and nice and (almost) every successfull pickup has them all to some extent, but in different orders or a differenct focus.
For example, my entire online game works around being a nice guy without any sexual content whatsoever until I meet her. That's when I can abuse the already high comfort to escalate rather quickly and give most of the fun comments we shared online a sexual context.
In a club setting, if I aim for a one-night-stand, as another example I can rely on proper screening to find the.. rather open female counterparts and go in direct and with a sexual context from the very beginning.
Also imo one of the biggest misconceptions "PUAs" have is that it's bad to be friendzoned. I know about 3 people (2 of which coach that exact style) who have their entire game revolve around GETTING what others call "friendzoned". The goal here is to be more under her radar than ever by being completely unsexual towards her while still showcasing attractive traits in general. I found that type of stuff rather hard to pull off when I first tried it myself, but it definitly has it's advantages.
Imo the goal should be to be able to understand why certain (sometimes at first very weird) things actually do work, if they are replicable and using this knowledge to become more flexible. Flexibility keeps things fresh and enables you to crack sets/situations where some of the more streamlined guys are like "Wtf just happened? How did he do that?"
tl;dr: Yeah, the A3 model will net you constant success. But it will also kick you in the nuts in certain situations if you internalize it completely, just like any other method.
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What I find concerning is, english is my mother tongue and I understand roughly only 60% of what is being posted on this thread. (Explaining stuff using vocab that's related or even reserved to a video game, that I myself feel I play a lot even, isn't clarifying concepts either, Slug, quite the opposite it's making me cringe and might make me throw up in my mouth a little. Trust me mate, don't mix women and video games, they're not meant for one another). But I am curious about where these venusian artists all are at. I've lived on 3 continents, am no social recluse and have yet to have a woman snatched from under my nose by 5'5 asian guy with an elaborate mohawk. Come find me.
I do appreciate the insight though, in the sense that reading the thread has made me realise a few things. I read 'The Game' and browsed around the net a little and immediately had to call bullshit on all this theory stuff. Claims stating theories were scientific are just laughable for someone who has remotely dabled in science in any kind of professional field. But reading the thread and seeing you guys argue about theory has made me realise some guys really need this PUA stuff. I read it and thought, what utter nonsense, I don't know any alpha men... then I go online and browse PUA material and I realise it's the betas i've not been aware of. What I'm trying to say is, without trying to insult anyone, some of you blokes come across as total whimps. And it's good ... that you're trying to change that. I can't really imagine what it is like to feel like I deserve more but I'm not getting it and I'm finding it really hard to ask for what it is I want.
My issues with the PUA scene are:
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Aside from that, carry on now.
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On April 27 2012 20:08 r.Evo wrote:
Urgs. I have to admit I dislike a cookie-cutter approach like that. Like, it can be an okay guideline but imo it gets you more into trouble if you try to stick with it in the long run and it also means you're going to miss opportunities because you only see those chains of events.
Opening with comfort is fine. A lot of the stuff that works great in social circle or indirect settings in general is basically building rapport/comfort while creating attraction. Like, those phases are all cool and nice and (almost) every successfull pickup has them all to some extent, but in different orders or a differenct focus.
For example, my entire online game works around being a nice guy without any sexual content whatsoever until I meet her. That's when I can abuse the already high comfort to escalate rather quickly and give most of the fun comments we shared online a sexual context.
In a club setting, if I aim for a one-night-stand, as another example I can rely on proper screening to find the.. rather open female counterparts and go in direct and with a sexual context from the very beginning.
Also imo one of the biggest misconceptions "PUAs" have is that it's bad to be friendzoned. I know about 3 people (2 of which coach that exact style) who have their entire game revolve around GETTING what others call "friendzoned". The goal here is to be more under her radar than ever by being completely unsexual towards her while still showcasing attractive traits in general. I found that type of stuff rather hard to pull off when I first tried it myself, but it definitly has it's advantages.
Imo the goal should be to be able to understand why certain (sometimes at first very weird) things actually do work, if they are replicable and using this knowledge to become more flexible. Flexibility keeps things fresh and enables you to crack sets/situations where some of the more streamlined guys are like "Wtf just happened? How did he do that?"
tl;dr: Yeah, the A3 model will net you constant success. But it will also kick you in the nuts in certain situations if you internalize it completely, just like any other method.
You are right, its more a response to a person's post about build orders more than anything else.
Its actually a basic outline more than anything else. You can't get anywhere with just this, its only to help you figure out how to not fall into traps, rather than what to be. It also helps share some basics with the uber-newbie.
If you can still have sex with "friend-zoned" girls, I really don't believe you are in the friend zone anymore, that's just a sexual relationship, or she is willing to have sex with you, you just aren't with her. Friend-zoning is caused by a combination of low attraction and low value. If she is not attracted to you, she's not gonna want to have sex with you until you have shown more value, and more attraction. Once you get to that point, it can be very difficult to claw your way back into being looked as as a sexual candidate.
The friend-zone you are talking about, I believe is actually really good. Its what a lot high-school relationships are made of, its what creates that magic. You are so close to each other, that everything is all sweet. If you break up, you are still friends, and often because you were so close, you have reservations about leaving each other and you are back again. Also you will never be that far apart, you can always be under each other's radar and hang out a lot.
The typical Girl blog in TL, is a hazardous mix of demonstrating that you have nothing going for you, that you have no confidence, let alone the fact that they can't even start a conversation. Eventually if they do get talking, it barely gets anywhere and they have no idea what to do. There's no attraction, its just comfort. Obviously after that they find it impossible to escalate because guess what, there's no attraction.
On April 27 2012 20:45 SeXyBaCk wrote:
What I find concerning is, english is my mother tongue and I understand roughly only 60% of what is being posted on this thread. (Explaining stuff using vocab that's related or even reserved to a video game, that I myself feel I play a lot even, isn't clarifying concepts either, Slug, quite the opposite it's making me cringe and might make me throw up in my mouth a little. Trust me mate, don't mix women and video games, they're not meant for one another). But I am curious about where these venusian artists all are at. I've lived on 3 continents, am no social recluse and have yet to have a woman snatched from under my nose by 5'5 asian guy with an elaborate mohawk. Come find me.
I do appreciate the insight though, in the sense that reading the thread has made me realise a few things. I read 'The Game' and browsed around the net a little and immediately had to call bullshit on all this theory stuff. Claims stating theories were scientific are just laughable for someone who has remotely dabled in science in any kind of professional field. But reading the thread and seeing you guys argue about theory has made me realise some guys really need this PUA stuff. I read it and thought, what utter nonsense, I don't know any alpha men... then I go online and browse PUA material and I realise it's the betas i've not been aware of. What I'm trying to say is, without trying to insult anyone, some of you blokes come across as total whimps. And it's good ... that you're trying to change that. I can't really imagine what it is like to feel like I deserve more but I'm not getting it and I'm finding it really hard to ask for what it is I want.
My issues with the PUA scene are:
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Aside from that, carry on now.
There's nothing wrong with realising what works and what doesn't and writing it down and sharing it with other people, that's all it is, to a very detailed degree. Your mindset is exactly like what mine was when I first dabbled in PUA, I thought PUA was a crock of shit, just like a lot of others did. When I looked deeper though I realised its much more sophisticated than that. You may think its disgusting, but knowing this stuff (to a good enough degree) has only had a positive effect on nearly everyone.
There is also a lot of real Evolutionary Psychology involved with PUA. Just like that article, PUA capitalizes on the fact that women are looking for certain traits in guys. When those traits are spelled out for you, it becomes a lot easier to realise what sets off those attraction switches.
Again some people don't like this, but lets give the example of a girl who wears make up. Make up is a way to trick guys into thinking the girl is hotter than she really is, PUA capitalises on the fact that women look for certain traits in guys that sets off similar attraction switches.
Guys look for different things in girls, than girls do in guys. Guys are looking for replication value in girls, that's why the hour glass body, blonde hair (youth), clear eyes, athletic (healthy), are all seen as attractive, as they mean good offspring. Girls look for survival value in guys, status, leadership, strength, achievements, are all seen as attractive to women, as they ensure survivability. There is also the tribal effect, where being in a certain scene will net girls who are attracted to guys in that scene, this ones pretty obvious though.
Look I did pull girls without this stuff, but what this PUA stuff did do is iron out my weaknesses, and strengthen my strengths. I focused on being more interesting in conversation, and I know there are certain things that I should avoid exposing or saying, I know how to walk up to a girl in a club without them immediately saying "I have a boyfriend!" . Everyone has weaknesses, and often they don't realise it until it comes up, and you go wait I never knew that.
If you did take a deep hard look at PUA, you would find out that there are certain things that you never realised that you could improve on. Its not just helping betas become alphas, even a natural will be better if he learned PUA.
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
Probably, but if the teaching material works, it works. After that its about being smart enough to cut the fat, and get to what you believe is important. That said I agree to a certain extent, I would never pay to go to a workshop.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
Well I guess you have to see to believe, I'm not gonna argue with that. I have to ask though, have you not at least met a natural who can walk up to anyone and take them out? You might think that's just manning up, and maybe it is. What happens if a non-natural goes up and does the same thing and she walks off? Is it still manning up? you have to consider that there is a lot more going at stake than what meets the eye.
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
You are correct. That's why you have certain "tests" to see what kind of girl they are, and that allows you to "calibrate" how you will be towards to her.
There's a certain problem with that last line, its that just saying things like "be yourself" and "man up" and stuff like that won't work. Sometimes you need to spell it out for people step by step. Yes maybe you don't need that, and that's great, but some people are simply incapable of reading in between the lines, or seeing things at an emotional level. Not everyone is the same. PUA works for everybody, not just certain types of people.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
Ok theres this guy that doesn't have a clue what to do around women, no worries, I will just tell him to be "totally rad", the guy puts a cap on backwards walks up to a girl and the girl tells him to "fuck off" before he can open his mouth. See where the problem is?
I am not trying to call you out, but you can't say the focus of PUA is off when you don't know what the focus of PUA is. Well, even I don't know what the focus of PUA is. There are many "focuses" I guess, some are about relationships, some are about picking up at clubs, picking up at cafes, picking up online, etc. PUA carries you all the way to maintaining a sexual relationship with many girls for as long as you can, its never about that first 30 minutes. Its just that for many people, the hardest part is that first 30 minutes, and that's why there is a lot of focus on it.
PUA doesn't teach you that because you touched her arm she will call you back, it does teach you though that there is a good chance she will laugh and touch you if you ask for her hands, do a little dance, and then steal her chair. It also puts you in the ball park because now it looks like she is hitting on you. And that's all you get from that, and obviously you have to work further, but its a nice starter.
It also does teach you to be "rad". But in a much more understandable type of way, it teaches you how to show value. Like the evolution article you read, one of the major concepts is about knowing how to be a high value candidate, because that's primarily what girls look for. Just like some girls try and figure out, how best to put on make up and what clothes to wear.
The clothes you wear, what you should and shouldn't say, knowing how to be interesting, etc. Some people need that, some people have half of it right, and never saw the other half, and some very rare people, like Tom Cruise and George Clooney, don't need it at all.
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Just wanna step in real quick for one point:
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Agree with the reversations about the 5000 sets. It's simply not possible to claim that learning something WILL be painfull and that you HAVE to repeat it over and over again to achieve any kind of success. If you want to become a great musician, yes, you will need hours and hours of practice because you're up against a very tough competition in a very well researched field with comparable strict standards.
In Pickup, it completely depends on your goals and the way you approach the entire subject. Sure, if you want to master every possible aspect you might end up having done 5000 "sets" which isn't even that hard to achieve if you count random encounters during your daily interaction. But claiming that you have to do certain approaches a hundred times before you know if they work or don't is plain stupid.
Since we just had that subject in depth, if you for example recognize the concept behind when and why certain things increase/decrease your value you can use that knowledge and apply it to any possible situation.
tl;dr: If you focus on concepts instead of specific actions you understand the subject on a deeper level and need less time to get similar results.
As for this part:
yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to...
..you are criticising how humans approach any complex subject. At some point in school your going to learn that electrons circle around a core of neutrons/protons similar to how our planets circle around the sun. Is that concept factually correct? No. Is this model accurate enough to explain what you want to explain at that point in time? Yes.
Any and all models are trying to simplify how the world works to enable you to make more effective decisions. As long as you learn to recognize when and why you use a not so correct model you're good to go.
That's why "Always try to lead the girl" is a good advice for a beginner. Does that mean that if a girl calls me and is like "Hey, I just found this great new greek restaurant, do you wanna go there tonight?" that I HAVE to respond with "No, let's go to an italian restaurant instead!" or I'm going to lose my "alpha status"? Fuck, no.
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On April 27 2012 20:45 SeXyBaCk wrote:
My issues with the PUA scene are:
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Aside from that, carry on now.
1. Yep. Keyboard jockeys leading keyboard jockeys
2. Doesn't matter what other people will think. Why even bother worrying about myths?
3. Your views on women won't really change that much from what you begin with. At least it hasn't changed for me. The only difference is I view women more realistically now. Most of them aren't really that great and that most women if you strip away their tits and ass, don't have much going for them.
4. Depends where you look. There are plenty of stuff on mid game and end game stuff. Getting your foot in the door is not 30 minute mark, its more like the first 2 minutes lol. By 30 minute, you should definitely be in isolation with your girl 1on1 ideally.
Thats the thing with pickup.
People get absorbed into putting labels on things, guru worshiping, being dogmatic, caring what the society thinks. You will notice most of the discussions aren't really focused around solving ones own sticking points. I still see people spending hundreds of dollars going to pick up conventions and I still see them every year wearing fucking wrangler jeans and over sized shitty t-shirts.
I see people getting into discussions about 3-some tactics and how to pull chicks, when these dudes are obviously not even opening. Stop reading and caring about all this other advanced stuff if you can't do the basics. Pickup learning is mostly action based. If you aren't approaching then you shouldn't be focusing on anything else other than approaching. If you can't lock in, don't worry about isolation. If you can't get a kiss, don't worry about getting a same night lay.
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On April 28 2012 05:31 squattincassanova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 20:45 SeXyBaCk wrote:
My issues with the PUA scene are:
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Aside from that, carry on now. 1. Yep. Keyboard jockeys leading keyboard jockeys 2. Doesn't matter what other people will think. Why even bother worrying about myths? 3. Your views on women won't really change that much from what you begin with. At least it hasn't changed for me. The only difference is I view women more realistically now. Most of them aren't really that great and that most women if you strip away their tits and ass, don't have much going for them. 4. Depends where you look. There are plenty of stuff on mid game and end game stuff. Getting your foot in the door is not 30 minute mark, its more like the first 2 minutes lol. By 30 minute, you should definitely be in isolation with your girl 1on1 ideally. Thats the thing with pickup. People get absorbed into putting labels on things, guru worshiping, being dogmatic, caring what the society thinks. You will notice most of the discussions aren't really focused around solving ones own sticking points. I still see people spending hundreds of dollars going to pick up conventions and I still see them every year wearing fucking wrangler jeans and over sized shitty t-shirts.
You are the keyboard jockey. Show us a pic of you with hot babes. You post pics of you and Fuji and Erik Everhard - I don't know if you're aware but posing with a guy with a mowhawk and a male porn star just means you're gay. You said you've had 20 lays. Anyone can go out and get a desperate fat chick to sleep with them. Show us a decent pic otherwise you're just another keyboard jockey.
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On April 28 2012 08:00 Jay Chou wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 05:31 squattincassanova wrote:On April 27 2012 20:45 SeXyBaCk wrote:
My issues with the PUA scene are:
1. it's mostly the blind leading the blind. There's some ghastly stuff out there. And many PUAs fill the space with theory and products and advice and so forth that will just cost you money but will not make you more succesful with women. Rather the opposite.
2. this myth of womaniser, uber seducer. Having great game... getting the skill... boys, it don't exist. What you're trying to do is normalise your social interactions, getting with the rest of mankind. Some people are more sexy than others. And you can work on that. But you won't become this panty dropping machine. Women are too individual. Which brings me to
3. Warped portrayal of women and psychology, Mark's article touched on this. Not all women want dominant men, not all women liked to be touched right away and so forth.No one-size-fits-all boys. Rather than that, be honest with yourself, face up to being a pussy, outline your goals and make a conscious effort at reaching them.
4. The focus of PUA is off. It's way too focused on getting your foot in the door...the first 1-30 minutes. When do I touch her? Do you actually think she's going to remember tomorrow morning and call you back because you touched her arm? Really? I think she's more likely to be responsive/receptive because she deemed you rad. So just become rad. That's what PUA should be teaching, how to become totally rad.
I've also got my reservations about the whole "yes, factually it's all bullshit, but beginners need to learn this first to be able to..." and the "it's going to be painful, you're not going to enjoy it but you have to approach 5000 sets", but what do I know about teaching or becoming better with women eh? Do whatever works for you.
Aside from that, carry on now. 1. Yep. Keyboard jockeys leading keyboard jockeys 2. Doesn't matter what other people will think. Why even bother worrying about myths? 3. Your views on women won't really change that much from what you begin with. At least it hasn't changed for me. The only difference is I view women more realistically now. Most of them aren't really that great and that most women if you strip away their tits and ass, don't have much going for them. 4. Depends where you look. There are plenty of stuff on mid game and end game stuff. Getting your foot in the door is not 30 minute mark, its more like the first 2 minutes lol. By 30 minute, you should definitely be in isolation with your girl 1on1 ideally. Thats the thing with pickup. People get absorbed into putting labels on things, guru worshiping, being dogmatic, caring what the society thinks. You will notice most of the discussions aren't really focused around solving ones own sticking points. I still see people spending hundreds of dollars going to pick up conventions and I still see them every year wearing fucking wrangler jeans and over sized shitty t-shirts. You are the keyboard jockey. Show us a pic of you with hot babes. You post pics of you and Fuji and Erik Everhard - I don't know if you're aware but posing with a guy with a mowhawk and a male porn star just means you're gay. You said you've had 20 lays. Anyone can go out and get a desperate fat chick to sleep with them. Show us a decent pic otherwise you're just another keyboard jockey.
Relax, he's got plenty deep in the thread already. He's legit.
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Christ, I can't believe people are still arguing about minor details. It's just one strawman arguement after another. After starting my "PUA journey" in january, I've been in 7 dates, which isn't really that much, but it it's still a pretty big improvement from my past. Note that I don't go out specifically to approach, but I still approach whenever there's a good time and a place. Also I interact way more comfortably with girls these days. The main thing fucking up lays is logistics, since I don't have my own apartment yet.
Really the only real advice I put to use was a) talk to girls b) show interest c) ask girls out. I'm pretty sure that is enough for every beginner out there, even if you're fucking terrible at it at first, girls will still note that at least you're trying and even that might get you somewhere. If not, at least you will have learned something. One thing I've also noted is that most girls seem to have these legions of friendzoned guys, so if you do try and show interest you will definitely stand out.
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On April 28 2012 17:00 Sotamursu wrote:
Christ, I can't believe people are still arguing about minor details. It's just one strawman arguement after another. After starting my "PUA journey" in january, I've been in 7 dates, which isn't really that much, but it it's still a pretty big improvement from my past. Note that I don't go out specifically to approach, but I still approach whenever there's a good time and a place. Also I interact way more comfortably with girls these days. The main thing fucking up lays is logistics, since I don't have my own apartment yet.
Really the only real advice I put to use was a) talk to girls b) show interest c) ask girls out. I'm pretty sure that is enough for every beginner out there, even if you're fucking terrible at it at first, girls will still note that at least you're trying and even that might get you somewhere. If not, at least you will have learned something. One thing I've also noted is that most girls seem to have these legions of friendzoned guys, so if you do try and show interest you will definitely stand out.
If you have a license you can drive out to the park where nobody is around. Just don't make it creepy obviously, get out walk around with her, talk as much as you can, sit on the bench, see if you can spot animals or anything interesting, go on the swing, once she is relaxed take her back to the car, don't make it look like you just took her out so you can fuck her, make it look like something at least a bit climactic/romantic.
Although don't be afraid to have sex in your parents house, I'm sure your parents would have done it while you were around, they might make fun of you, or if you are young they might do something dumb like "sit down, we need to talk" and tell you stuff you already knew, but really they aren't gonna care.
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Get a cat. Chicks dig cats. Also you can cuddle with the cat if you can't date any girls. Win/win!
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On April 29 2012 03:26 Hittegods wrote:
Get a cat. Chicks dig cats. Also you can cuddle with the cat if you can't date any girls. Win/win!
This guy knows how to get laid
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On April 28 2012 17:00 Sotamursu wrote:One thing I've also noted is that most girls seem to have these legions of friendzoned guys, so if you do try and show interest you will definitely stand out.
L-like... their actual friends and acquaintances? Sorry I kind of see what you are saying, but it just seemed funny when I first read it.
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On April 29 2012 10:05 Penecks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 17:00 Sotamursu wrote:One thing I've also noted is that most girls seem to have these legions of friendzoned guys, so if you do try and show interest you will definitely stand out. L-like... their actual friends and acquaintances? Sorry I kind of see what you are saying, but it just seemed funny when I first read it.
Nope, more like I've heard them talk about all the nice stuff their guy friends have done to them and then they say stuff like "oh he's so nice, he's like a brother to me". It's pretty obvious what's happening to anyone who has ever experienced it. I'm not sure, if these girls are actually that oblivious to what's happening or are they consciously taking advantage of these people.
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EPT
