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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
In order to get this critical mass of players/people knowing the game well enough to enjoy viewing, blizzard should have done a) make the game for free and try to get revenues from broadcasting or advertising or something like that (hard to pull of, would have required a very long term investment until it pays off) or b) make SC2 a BW clone with better graphics and a few new features/units. So they would have inherited the existing player/viewer base. | ||
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CooDu
Australia899 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: i think, that popularity strongly depends on the amount of players. Because a lot of people played bw in korea, there were a lot of viewers and interest. Few people will view a game which they are not playing actively or have played in the past, regardless of graphics and all the other gimmickry thrown into the discussion. In order to get this critical mass of players/people knowing the game well enough to enjoy viewing, blizzard should have done a) make the game for free and try to get revenues from broadcasting or advertising or something like that (hard to pull of, would have required a very long term investment until it pays off) or b) make SC2 a BW clone with better graphics and a few new features/units. So they would have inherited the existing player/viewer base. Definitely. The amount of players (Korean) iCCup must have due to pirated or portable versions of the game would be astounding. I don't think it would be too wise to allow the game for free, but perhaps a free 14 day trial or a lower price per copy in Korea. Blizzard has ample marketing opportunities. The Brood War clone idea actually made me giddy inside for a few seconds - I felt like I was in a dream!  | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 08 2011 19:43 FallDownMarigold wrote: Precisely my point - thank you for clarifying. SC:BW may have a unique niche within the Korean esport subculture, but outside of that...well, notsomuch. My argument is that should an esport seek to excel, it should seek to win over the mind of the casual viewer. I don't know much about Korean gamer subculture - or any Korean trends - but I saw a post by a Korean (alleged) a few posts back here describing the general interest among Korean fans directed towards difficult things to appreciate like impeccable mechanics, which is not something the casual viewer happens to value as highly. Don't underestimate the revenue-generating power behind the casual viewer base. the vast majority of people who watch BW here are casual viewers. They are able to understand the mechanics and the difficulty of such because of the superb jobs the casters do. You don't honestly think the screaming girls filling the stands are BW pros, do you? In fact, I'll take it even further: Korean BW has been able to withstand the test of time strictly because they've understood how to market this game to women. THis is where Western leagues and organizers and perhaps the entire gaming industry just fails miserably: they don't know how to market to women, and as such they're unable to capture the vast majority of affluent, casual viewers. Instead, they market to the hardcore gamer and constantly reinforce the nerd culture, thereby making an impenetrable viewing experience for the casual gamer. This is why their leagues aren't able to have staying power. And it's not like Korean women have a starcraft gene in them or whatever. In fact, Korean women are some of the most difficult customers in the world, as international fashion companies world wide can attest. (I can link studies, I did a paper on this sophomore year of college). It's more than possible to capture women viewers in the States, it's just that no one's made the effort or found an effective way to do so. And that's why western leagues aren't on TV | ||
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sqrt
1210 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: b) make SC2 a BW clone with better graphics and a few new features/units. So they would have inherited the existing player/viewer base. In retrospect, this was probably the best thing Blizz could do. 1. Slap gold minerals, rocks, high grass and xel'naga towers. 2. Introduce Void Ray, Sentry, Banelings (imagine a Bling/Lurker push, it will look so good), New Queen(call her Broodmother or something), give the transformation mode to Valkyrie, and throw in the Reaper. 3. Give us the new macro mechanics - mules, inject larva, chronoboost and warpgates (but put warp gates in the end of the tech tree) 4. Give us the glorious Bnet 2.0 matchmaking system. And voila you created a great game. I enjoy SC2, I play it ofter, but SC:BW didn't need a sequel. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:06 Kororo wrote: Are you talking about SC2 and BW in the general population? Because numbers would prove otherwise. I'd be interested to see these numbers and statistics, actually. Please provide links so that I can compare them for personal judgment. I'll address this point further shortly. Using the "it has better graphics; thus, it's more appealing" isn't a genuine argument. I agree. However, that is not the extent of my argument. I attempted to broach my admittedly poorly explained idea by simply opening with the graphics point. The graphics point is tangentially related to the general point about casual viewers being a primary driving force in the generation of revenue among spectator events (including regular sports). SC2 is failing in Korea for a reason, keep that in mind. As others have mentioned, Korean fans do place a high level of importance on the outstanding abilities of BW mechanical masters. SC2 has, to my knowledge, not provided fans with a commensurate level of mechanical 'grace' and awe. Why should we focus on why it is failing only in Korea, though? Let's consider other regions of the world as well, yes? I'd say SC:BW, by comparison, has failed/is failing pretty miserably in the United States for example. I've seen parents take their children to watch Broodwar games. Not to mention many folks who probably don't understand the full mechanics of BW go to big events. Heck, I saw elderly people in the crowd on numerous occasions. Are these people not casual? I'm pretty sure they went there to be entertained. That is an interesting anecdote. Thank you. I've also seen many parents take their kids to watch things - and so on and so forth - but that's not relevant, objective, or factual, so I won't bother bringing it up. Your statement that "you've seen casual people watch BW" does not really say anything. The same applies to SC2. All I see in SC2 are blobs attacking each other. Yeah that's really entertaining stuff, it's so full of action! I stood up one night to watch the GSL2 Finals and not once did I find myself being awed by the player's skill. That is because you are accustomed to seeing different deployments of units in SC:BW, thus, you are predisposed to be disinterested by the play generated typically in SC2. If you are arguing that SC:BW unit management and execution is inherently more interesting, I'd be interested to see you present your evidence and case. Again, I'm going to have to say that the truly casual viewer would not pick up on such things like, "OMG THE MICRO IS NOT AS GOOD IN SC2 AS IT WAS IN BW". Such a point is not a casual point - it's something that "true fans" of SC:BW appreciate. I know little about SC2, so I guess that would make me a casual spectator watching SC2, knowing nothing of its mechanics. I wasn't entertained. However, you know a lot about SC:BW apparently, and thus, you are not a casual viewer of SC2. SC2 is relevant enough to SC:BW such that a true fan of one cannot be a true "casual viewer" of the other. If SC2 employed a dramatically different gameplay (which it doesn't), then sure, you might call yourself a casual viewer of the game. Differences in APM management and hot-keying/rallying are not something the casual viewer is in-tune with. Moreover, it is simply not important. More people watch BW in Korea because it's ENTERTAINING. I'd like to amend that statement to: More Koreans watch BW in Korea because it's ENTERTAINING to that particular esport subculture. To close, let me ask you this. Currently, including every form of media and communication, which game do you think garners more attention in the United States (SC2 of SC:BW)? Let's not bother considering Korea for now, because it's quite clear that Koreans currently prefer SC:BW. Assuming the US could serve as an example of a place in which esports has potential to excel, let's explore the question. I'm going to have to say currently SC2 garners a lot more attention - not because it's a more technical game, but because it's more appealing to the casual viewer. I know you're going to hate me and laugh and throw rocks at me for saying this, but consider HuskyStarcraft and HDStarcraft, not to mention many other less-followed individuals. These individuals generate absurd amount of viewers/fans for SC2. The fact that they are so unprofessional and "noob friendly" - yet that they garner far more views than any SC:BW proponent/entertainer - proves that SC2 really is more appealing to the vast, casual crowd of viewers. Similarly, do big events in the US support SC:BW? If I'm not mistaken the major events currently are the MLG events - these events do not support SC:BW yet they do support SC2. These events cater to many gamers, including many casual viewers that do not know everything about the games they choose to view. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On January 08 2011 19:30 FallDownMarigold wrote: Although you missed my point and instead chose to play word games/troll, I'll humor you: Correct. If Halo or COD were to be marketed and presented to the correct fanbase in the same manner in which BW is, you'd get a lot more viewers in my opinion. And by "presented" I mean... the teams... the drama... everything. Pump all that uniqueness into a visually more appealing and dynamic game - then watch how many casual fans pick up the habit of viewing. Don't be an elitist and assume that beautiful/difficult game mechanics are what generate fans. That is responsible for true fans of gameplay, but not for mere casual viewers. Like it or not, casual viewers make up the large majority of viewers of most prominent sports/activities. Although you missed my point and instead chose to accuse me of word games/troll, i'll teach you something: Your understanding of casual viewer is that they are superficial, i.e the type of people that like fancy stuff rather than the more meaningful, much like the difference between fifa fan and pes fan. One can argue that its not but i agree on that part. The problem is, there are alot of games that beat sc2 in that regards, CoD and Halo are the ones i mentioned but there are much more. Aside from the graphics, games like CoD and Halo can easily be understood by pretty much anyone due to the war context that everyone is familiar with. How do you expect an RTS game to be abled to compete for those viewers if its not a game with depth like BW? | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On January 07 2011 08:59 TributeBoxer wrote: I watched world cup during the day on the internet. Maybe they should move it to those hours. If it is during the day for you than it is in the middle of the night for kroeans and prime time for europeans. It will always be in the middle of the night for one region. As the koreans host the tournament it is fair that it is prime time for them. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
1.) The ability to provide reliable paychecks to the players, independent of tournament winnings 2.) The ability to garner government support as a legitimate cultural ministry 3.) The ability to generate implicit revenue, not explicit ones like paid admissions to watch games or game sales, but through viewers and advertising dollars 4.) The ability to appeal to a wide demographic, both male and female, young and old 5.) The ability to function on a timeline beyond the common restraints most video games suffer from, such as processing power and graphical presentation In these aspects, Pro BW is not a niche success. It's the epitome of what Esports should be and is the absolute envy of every gamer, game producer, league organizer and sponsors in every game in every country all around the world. So I guess it depends on your point of view | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:23 sqrt wrote: In retrospect, this was probably the best thing Blizz could do. 1. Slap gold minerals, rocks, high grass and xel'naga towers. 2. Introduce Void Ray, Sentry, Banelings (imagine a Bling/Lurker push, it will look so good), New Queen(call her Broodmother or something), give the transformation mode to Valkyrie, and throw in the Reaper. 3. Give us the new macro mechanics - mules, inject larva, chronoboost and warpgates (but put warp gates in the end of the tech tree) 4. Give us the glorious Bnet 2.0 matchmaking system. And voila you created a great game. I enjoy SC2, I play it ofter, but SC:BW didn't need a sequel. Well first of all, I think it's really premature to call it quits on SC2. I'll say first of all that I'm a huge BW fan, and if you look at my posts on BW vs SC2, you'll see that I'm very for BW. But just because some fans didn't come to watch a few SC2 games, doesn't mean you need to stop the game. That is way too irrational. And second, if you make a BW with better graphics, you will not get the things that made the game so great. The glitches. You won't see muta stack, no reaver duds, no mine unpredictability. These were the stuff that made the game so entertaining, because you didn't know what was gonna happen. In SC2, you know exactly what's gonna happen, so its predictable, and boring. But a mine drag, a reaver shot, the unpredictability was what was exciting. Sure, Blizz could make the success rate for reaver shots and mines at like 60% or 70% or whatever. And maybe they could make a muta stack with better graphics, but still, I doubt it would ever match the excitement BW produced. Third, the only reason Blizz would do this is to...? They already sold a lot of copies on SC2, probably won't sell much more, as its past the initial selling phase. I doubt many people will buy this new version, and even if they do, you're gonna create another SC2 vs new SC2 thing, like BW vs SC2, except now, its gonna be a THREEWAY fight, between BW vs SC2 vs new SC2. Great, now what's the "new" esport. I'm telling you, there is a great chance that Koreans like myself will still stick to BW. My solution, is that you make SC2 teams, and have a proleague, which adds so much more drama, and pageantry, that BW is full of. Also, you have to make the games televised, because that's how you increase the casual fanbase. Also, another thing about SC2, the units NEED to stop clumping up. In BW, I could watch a battle, and pick out each single unit. With SC2, I see a battle, and just see a blob. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote: @Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please explain to everyone this great success story. When you say dota ended up being a joke, you mean that it got replaced and succeeded in esports by HoN and LoL right? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:22 d_so wrote: the vast majority of people who watch BW here are casual viewers. They are able to understand the mechanics and the difficulty of such because of the superb jobs the casters do. You don't honestly think the screaming girls filling the stands are BW pros, do you? In fact, I'll take it even further: Korean BW has been able to withstand the test of time strictly because they've understood how to market this game to women. THis is where Western leagues and organizers and perhaps the entire gaming industry just fails miserably: they don't know how to market to women, and as such they're unable to capture the vast majority of affluent, casual viewers. Instead, they market to the hardcore gamer and constantly reinforce the nerd culture, thereby making an impenetrable viewing experience for the casual gamer. This is why their leagues aren't able to have staying power. And it's not like Korean women have a starcraft gene in them or whatever. In fact, Korean women are some of the most difficult customers in the world, as international fashion companies world wide can attest. (I can link studies, I did a paper on this sophomore year of college). It's more than possible to capture women viewers in the States, it's just that no one's made the effort or found an effective way to do so. And that's why western leagues aren't on TV You are comparing sc bw which has already peaked to a game that is still growing. You should compare to when bw was growing and when sc2 was growing. When it started growing did the casual's really watch it? Of course not sc bw only grew so hard because it was so accesible in korea and it was and still is one of the best games there is. Correct me if I am wrong but brood war grew when a lot of people had no job and playing games was a cheap way to spend time. And since so many people played it it grew and came on tv and only then when it gets broadcasted it becomes more appealing to the casual viewers. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:46 frodoguy wrote: When you say dota ended up being a joke, you mean that it got replaced and succeeded in esports by HoN and LoL right? I meant sponsers and tournaments not paying out slaries/prizes and how things just fizzled out, but yes that too hadn't thought of that . | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:29 frodoguy wrote: Although you missed my point and instead chose to accuse me of word games/troll, i'll teach you something: Your understanding of casual viewer is that they are superficial, i.e the type of people that like fancy stuff rather than the more meaningful, much like the difference between fifa fan and pes fan. One can argue that its not but i agree on that part. The problem is, there are alot of games that beat sc2 in that regards, CoD and Halo are the ones i mentioned but there are much more. Aside from the graphics, games like CoD and Halo can easily be understood by pretty much anyone due to the war context that everyone is familiar with. How do you expect an RTS game to be abled to compete for those viewers if its not a game with depth like BW? I'm unsure why you choose to continue patronizing me by copying my format of posts (perhaps it makes you laugh - troll, by definition), but I'll do my best to pick through the second portion of your response - the part that actually contains the substance of what you mean to say to me. Yes, I agree that casual viewers by definition are - for lack of better adjective - more superficial than "true fans". I think you are correct in applying that to your sport analogy. Perhaps you are right by insinuating that these Halo/COD types of games will always appeal to a larger crowd of people because they will probably always win all the superficial battles. However, a game like SC2 has the potential to bring in the best of both sides - the visual/superficial/casual appeal + the mechanical appeal. Obviously it won't win supreme in the mechanical game vs. SC:BW, and obviously it won't win in the breath-taking visuals department vs. Halo, but it sure as hell can attain a balance between the two that could perhaps garner an enormous untapped fanbase - one that is interested in casual strategy, yet also interested in good old superficial awesomeness. But, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps it really is impossible to blend casual appeal with mechanical/strategic beauty. Maybe SC2 (in its current state) never can compete with something like Halo, and maybe it never can compete with BW in terms of mechanics and so on. And really, if you are interested in carrying on this discussion, it would be nicer if you did so in your own way rather than by mocking what I say by mimicking it for whatever reason. That sort of thing isn't productive because it adds an irrelevant facet to the discussion. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:54 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: again: casual viewer = casual gamer. Increasing the amount of players is key. SC needs kind of a fully playable free client (e.g time limited). They have a demo available. If that is not enough, people wanting to try out the full game can go to internet cafes. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote: @Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in the EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please tell to everyone this great success story. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 08 2011 20:47 RvB wrote: You are comparing sc bw which has already peaked to a game that is still growing. You should compare to when bw was growing and when sc2 was growing. When it started growing did the casual's really watch it? Of course not sc bw only grew so hard because it was so accesible in korea and it was and still is one of the best games there is. Correct me if I am wrong but brood war grew when a lot of people had no job and playing games was a cheap way to spend time. And since so many people played it it grew and came on tv and only then when it gets broadcasted it becomes more appealing to the casual viewers. well you actually bring up something that I've been wanting to talk about for a while. You're right, when the concept of professional BW was still in its inception stages, there were no casual viewers. Of course, the biggest reasons why there were no casual viewers was cuz there was no medium like youtube or TV to show the game to the casual viewer, and there was no concept of E sports. But eventually, as grass root tournaments took place at rapidly increasing frequency and more and more prize money became available, it started garnering casual interest to the point that a few brave companies decided it was air-able on television and could earn advertising dollars. So here's what's interesting: at first, like you said there were no casual viewers. But slowly, surely as the game grew more popular and more tournaments were held, there were more casual viewers. And these casual viewers became evidence of possible advertising revenue that could sustain a TV-based business model. And this model proved to be self sustaining, and big money tournaments could be held with big sponsors in a manner that was self-sustaining and, in hindsight, self-propagating. In other words, the big money tournaments came after there were enough casual viewers to sustain such tournaments. But what about SC2? There was no time for buildup of a casual fan base: the big money tournaments were available from the start. This is because Blizzard took a proactive approach and threw tons of money into the GSL. But if we look at pro BW, we see that the prize money was a reflection of the casual viewing audience. In SC2, it's the complete opposite approach: the money was made available to causate the viewing audience. k my gf is here so imma go out for a bit. im going to try to finish this thought, but basically I think this top down approach is the wrong approach and creates a lot of weird externalities. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote: Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. So in the end nothing worthy of noting? I think you need to keep in mind that I was replying to you talking about it succeeding elsewhere, but nothing significant/unique to sc2 in those regions so far, aside from Blizzard's manipulating everyone with the idea of esports. In the end SC2 needs SK. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote: Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. If you want to explore some general trends in the US to gain insights revealing what people are interested in, I suggest you check out this: http://www.google.com/insights/search/# First configure its settings to focus on the US, then make sure you understand Google's method of data normalization (it's quite simple). Try typing in Brood War. Then try typing in Starcraft 2. SC2. Play with it. It's pretty clear that SC2 sees more activity than BW in the US, regardless of the lack of tournament presence. I don't agree with you that success and exposure is contingent upon how much prizes/tournaments are being handed out. That's only a small aspect of success. Well there are millions of people that watch BW(many being Korean). And I think you're going with the statistic of the number of subscribers that Husky and HD have, but they're not very accurate, and they cannot be used as evidence. If you compare that nevake only has like 17,000 subs, while husky and hd have 200,000, doesn't mean shit because a lot of people in korea watch in other ways than youtube. Which brings up another point. I really don't think that SC2 will EVER be shown on TV in the states, or any major country in europe, unless a major cultural change happens, which I doubt will happen soon. If you really think that espn is gonna show sc2, think again. Games in western countries are still thought of as nerdy, while games in Korea is a way to earn respect among everyone, and not just to nerds. | ||
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