|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 08 2011 21:08 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 20:47 RvB wrote:On January 08 2011 20:22 d_so wrote:On January 08 2011 19:43 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 19:36 RvB wrote:On January 08 2011 19:01 don_kyuhote wrote:On January 08 2011 18:53 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The funny thing is, to casual spectators of the game, SC2 is far more appealing than BW. It's got better graphics for starters. Additionally it's got more complex possibilities due to the lessening of the prior emphasis on perfect mechanics in BW.
The game is more suited to people that aren't as in-tuned with it to begin with. I think esports is ever to really takeoff, it needs to appeal to a wide variety of interest levels and not solely people that really really understand the mechanics of the game.
So if some company releases a dumbed down version of SC2 that has even better graphics and is even more suited to people that aren't as in-tuned with it some years from now, it will be a better esport than SC2 and SC2 will go away? Probably yes if you haven't noticed games like wow and cod are very popular and so are sports like soccer. Things grow if they are easy accessible for the casual viewer and very easy to understand. Sc bw isn't going to attract more viewers outside Korea because of it's complexity ( and graphics ). Precisely my point - thank you for clarifying. SC:BW may have a unique niche within the Korean esport subculture, but outside of that...well, notsomuch. My argument is that should an esport seek to excel, it should seek to win over the mind of the casual viewer. I don't know much about Korean gamer subculture - or any Korean trends - but I saw a post by a Korean (alleged) a few posts back here describing the general interest among Korean fans directed towards difficult things to appreciate like impeccable mechanics, which is not something the casual viewer happens to value as highly. Don't underestimate the revenue-generating power behind the casual viewer base. the vast majority of people who watch BW here are casual viewers. They are able to understand the mechanics and the difficulty of such because of the superb jobs the casters do. You don't honestly think the screaming girls filling the stands are BW pros, do you? In fact, I'll take it even further: Korean BW has been able to withstand the test of time strictly because they've understood how to market this game to women. THis is where Western leagues and organizers and perhaps the entire gaming industry just fails miserably: they don't know how to market to women, and as such they're unable to capture the vast majority of affluent, casual viewers. Instead, they market to the hardcore gamer and constantly reinforce the nerd culture, thereby making an impenetrable viewing experience for the casual gamer. This is why their leagues aren't able to have staying power. And it's not like Korean women have a starcraft gene in them or whatever. In fact, Korean women are some of the most difficult customers in the world, as international fashion companies world wide can attest. (I can link studies, I did a paper on this sophomore year of college). It's more than possible to capture women viewers in the States, it's just that no one's made the effort or found an effective way to do so. And that's why western leagues aren't on TV You are comparing sc bw which has already peaked to a game that is still growing. You should compare to when bw was growing and when sc2 was growing. When it started growing did the casual's really watch it? Of course not sc bw only grew so hard because it was so accesible in korea and it was and still is one of the best games there is. Correct me if I am wrong but brood war grew when a lot of people had no job and playing games was a cheap way to spend time. And since so many people played it it grew and came on tv and only then when it gets broadcasted it becomes more appealing to the casual viewers. well you actually bring up something that I've been wanting to talk about for a while. You're right, when the concept of professional BW was still in its inception stages, there were no casual viewers. Of course, the biggest reasons why there were no casual viewers was cuz there was no medium like youtube or TV to show the game to the casual viewer, and there was no concept of E sports. But eventually, as grass root tournaments took place at rapidly increasing frequency and more and more prize money became available, it started garnering casual interest to the point that a few brave companies decided it was air-able on television and could earn advertising dollars. So here's what's interesting: at first, like you said there were no casual viewers. But slowly, surely as the game grew more popular and more tournaments were held, there were more casual viewers. And these casual viewers became evidence of possible advertising revenue that could sustain a TV-based business model. And this model proved to be self sustaining, and big money tournaments could be held with big sponsors in a manner that was self-sustaining and, in hindsight, self-propagating. In other words, the big money tournaments came after there were enough casual viewers to sustain such tournaments.But what about SC2? There was no time for buildup of a casual fan base: the big money tournaments were available from the start. This is because Blizzard took a proactive approach and threw tons of money into the GSL. But if we look at pro BW, we see that the prize money was a reflection of the casual viewing audience. In SC2, it's the complete opposite approach: the money was made available to causate the viewing audience. k my gf is here so imma go out for a bit. im going to try to finish this thought, but basically I think this top down approach is the wrong approach and creates a lot of weird externalities.
Well when sc2 hit a lot of casual people bought the game but not from Korea so there are enough players to actually watch the GSL but sadly not Koreans. And as far as the proactive approach goes it does work just look at things like twitter, millions are getting pumped in it without twitter even knowing how it is going to make money but it is steadily growing. And for the GSL they already know how to make money but they just need the growth of viewers which is why they do it like this. Fact is we don't know what will happen and we will have to wait but it does atleast some time because really after 6 months we are unable to judge about it.
And about blizzard throwing much cash at it, I don't know if they actually throw that much cash into it because GSL's major sponsor is sony ericson right so it's only logical that they pay more. Plus imo it's a good thing that they support their own game to make it an e- sport but that's just a personal opinion :p.
|
On January 08 2011 21:23 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote:
@Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in the EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please tell to everyone this great success story. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. If you want to explore some general trends in the US to gain insights revealing what people are interested in, I suggest you check out this: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#First configure its settings to focus on the US, then make sure you understand Google's method of data normalization (it's quite simple). Try typing in Brood War. Then try typing in Starcraft 2. SC2. Play with it. It's pretty clear that SC2 sees more activity than BW in the US, regardless of the lack of tournament presence. I don't agree with you that success and exposure is contingent upon how much prizes/tournaments are being handed out. That's only a small aspect of success. Well there are millions of people that watch BW(many being Korean). And I think you're going with the statistic of the number of subscribers that Husky and HD have, but they're not very accurate, and they cannot be used as evidence. If you compare that nevake only has like 17,000 subs, while husky and hd have 200,000, doesn't mean shit because a lot of people in korea watch in other ways than youtube. Which brings up another point. I really don't think that SC2 will EVER be shown on TV in the states, or any major country in europe, unless a major cultural change happens, which I doubt will happen soon. If you really think that espn is gonna show sc2, think again. Games in western countries are still thought of as nerdy, while games in Korea is a way to earn respect among everyone, and not just to nerds.
My entire point was that SC2 is more casual-friendly. Youtube is not something that can simply be discounted in this discussion because it in fact plays one of the largest roles today in media communications - especially in the US. There are millions of BW viewers - yes - but you are wrong in saying "many" are Koreans. The fact is, the overwhelming majority are Koreans. However, with SC2, we suddenly see breakthroughs in regions (aka US) where watching something like a computer game on a massive scale - purely for entertainment - was unheard of. The fact that HD and Husky have 350,000+ viewers DOES mean shit. It means that you don't have to be a hardcore fan to watch or care. The game is appealing to people that don't care about "accuracy". They care about entertainment. In my opinion, the game does a better job at entertaining the CASUAL VIEWER. I have not been persuaded otherwise by any arguments stating that there are many casual Korean viewers of BW.
|
On January 08 2011 21:08 d_so wrote:
But what about SC2? There was no time for buildup of a casual fan base: the big money tournaments were available from the start. This is because Blizzard took a proactive approach and threw tons of money into the GSL. But if we look at pro BW, we see that the prize money was a reflection of the casual viewing audience. In SC2, it's the complete opposite approach: the money was made available to causate the viewing audience.
That reminds me of the american government's approach to the Global Financial Crisis: all in vain
|
On January 08 2011 21:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 21:23 Tazza wrote:On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote:
@Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in the EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please tell to everyone this great success story. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. If you want to explore some general trends in the US to gain insights revealing what people are interested in, I suggest you check out this: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#First configure its settings to focus on the US, then make sure you understand Google's method of data normalization (it's quite simple). Try typing in Brood War. Then try typing in Starcraft 2. SC2. Play with it. It's pretty clear that SC2 sees more activity than BW in the US, regardless of the lack of tournament presence. I don't agree with you that success and exposure is contingent upon how much prizes/tournaments are being handed out. That's only a small aspect of success. Well there are millions of people that watch BW(many being Korean). And I think you're going with the statistic of the number of subscribers that Husky and HD have, but they're not very accurate, and they cannot be used as evidence. If you compare that nevake only has like 17,000 subs, while husky and hd have 200,000, doesn't mean shit because a lot of people in korea watch in other ways than youtube. Which brings up another point. I really don't think that SC2 will EVER be shown on TV in the states, or any major country in europe, unless a major cultural change happens, which I doubt will happen soon. If you really think that espn is gonna show sc2, think again. Games in western countries are still thought of as nerdy, while games in Korea is a way to earn respect among everyone, and not just to nerds. My entire point was that SC2 is more casual-friendly. Youtube is not something that can simply be discounted in this discussion because it in fact plays one of the largest roles today in media communications - especially in the US. There are millions of BW viewers - yes - but you are wrong in saying "many" are Koreans. The fact is, the overwhelming majority are Koreans. However, with SC2, we suddenly see breakthroughs in regions (aka US) where watching something like a computer game on a massive scale - purely for entertainment - was unheard of. The fact that HD and Husky have 350,000+ viewers DOES mean shit. It means that you don't have to be a hardcore fan to watch or care. The game is appealing to people that don't care about "accuracy". They care about entertainment. In my opinion, the game does a better job at entertaining the CASUAL VIEWER. I have not been persuaded otherwise by any arguments stating that there are many casual Korean viewers of BW.
ALL Korean gamers are casual gamers. Gaming in Korea isn't a subculture, it's more like Starbucks . . something you blow $4.50 on each day to relieve some stress. In the states and Europe there are more hardcore forum browsing VOD hunting replay watching gaming nerds but in Korea, EVERYONE plays games avidly and esports is more readily available.
|
On January 08 2011 21:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 21:23 Tazza wrote:On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote:
@Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in the EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please tell to everyone this great success story. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. If you want to explore some general trends in the US to gain insights revealing what people are interested in, I suggest you check out this: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#First configure its settings to focus on the US, then make sure you understand Google's method of data normalization (it's quite simple). Try typing in Brood War. Then try typing in Starcraft 2. SC2. Play with it. It's pretty clear that SC2 sees more activity than BW in the US, regardless of the lack of tournament presence. I don't agree with you that success and exposure is contingent upon how much prizes/tournaments are being handed out. That's only a small aspect of success. Well there are millions of people that watch BW(many being Korean). And I think you're going with the statistic of the number of subscribers that Husky and HD have, but they're not very accurate, and they cannot be used as evidence. If you compare that nevake only has like 17,000 subs, while husky and hd have 200,000, doesn't mean shit because a lot of people in korea watch in other ways than youtube. Which brings up another point. I really don't think that SC2 will EVER be shown on TV in the states, or any major country in europe, unless a major cultural change happens, which I doubt will happen soon. If you really think that espn is gonna show sc2, think again. Games in western countries are still thought of as nerdy, while games in Korea is a way to earn respect among everyone, and not just to nerds. My entire point was that SC2 is more casual-friendly. Youtube is not something that can simply be discounted in this discussion because it in fact plays one of the largest roles today in media communications - especially in the US. There are millions of BW viewers - yes - but you are wrong in saying "many" are Koreans. The fact is, the overwhelming majority are Koreans. However, with SC2, we suddenly see breakthroughs in regions (aka US) where watching something like a computer game on a massive scale - purely for entertainment - was unheard of. The fact that HD and Husky have 350,000+ viewers DOES mean shit. It means that you don't have to be a hardcore fan to watch or care. The game is appealing to people that don't care about "accuracy". They care about entertainment. In my opinion, the game does a better job at entertaining the CASUAL VIEWER. I have not been persuaded otherwise by any arguments stating that there are many casual Korean viewers of BW.
Youtube may be big internationally, but it is not big in Korea, and so you can't just say that just because HD and Husky have more views=more casual viewers. So you can throw the youtube argument out because it DOESN'T mean SHIT. And you think that all the millions of people watching the BW in Korea are hardcore players? If that's the case, then why aren't there millions of Korean players on iccup? The majority of the people in the stands and on tv are just casual viewers, just like Hyungjoon was. He only became a hardcore player after he tried to go pro. If you don't know what I'm talking about, there is a singer/actor in Korea named Kim Hyungjoon, that made his own show "Kim Hyungjoon becomes a progamer" which he joines a progame team, and tries to become a pro. And not just him and his band, his brother's band also watches gaming, and so do many of the female kpop stars, which explaines why BW players do their dances in ceremonies, and the girls actually notice, and thank them in interviews. Which brings another point, you don't see a lot of girls watching SC2 do you? Well in Korea, many many women watch, which is why girls like Shin-Ae have their own show, why there are a lot of fangirl screaming in the stands, and why interviews like this happened
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181644
And don't tell me that all of these people are "hardcore" players. Except for the coaches that is. And not just this, you even see old people sometimes in the stands. When's the last time you ever saw an old person watching any kind of video game, much less actually go through the trouble of going to the stadium, and have to face possible ridicule from other old people? I'd say there are probably just as many male casual viewers of BW in Korea than any where else. But what BW and Korea have done, is create a scene in which everyone in society, and not just "nerds" can enjoy esports. Therefore, there are more casual viewers in Korea
|
On January 08 2011 17:10 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 16:49 CreepCrepe wrote:On January 08 2011 16:26 nK)Duke wrote:On January 08 2011 16:15 I Hott Sauce I wrote:
I just don't get some of you guys. SCII is new, what do you expect??? its boring as hell, what do you expect? I don't understand why watching people go through incredibly mechanical macro is 'more exciting'. It's not, it's frustrating, boring and repetitive. because it defines a player's skill. gulfs in macro ability translate onto the battlefield. just watch the skt vs kt winners league - it's just over. + Show Spoiler +bisu's 6 bases meant nothing without real units backing them up you can win very easily through better macro.
So people expect pros who have been playing for 11 months at most to have the same skillset as pros who have been playing for about 12-13 years? But the "give it time" argument is still a stupid one apparently. The BW elitism in here really IS getting ridiculous, especially when you're entire argument is "its boring as hell, what do you expect?" but you still can get away with it.
|
You can't discount youtube views if you are discussing casual viewership. The fact is there are NO concrete numbers of anything. Youtube however does give a viewer count, and a subscriber count. So that's a better for source for people watching than anything anywhere else can provide outside of GOM and KESPA. No one has stated how many casual gamers watch this or watch that.. the fact is 350k people are subbed to Husky and HD, and several million people have watched a song about Banelings, a lot probably not even knowing what they were before that. SC2 is growing, maybe not in Korea, but everywhere else. and until someone posts official accurate figures proving or disproving this, then thats the best we have, and we just have to keep playing like we are.
|
Does anyone have GomTV's subscription numbers? Do you know how much they are spending, or earning, or what their business plan actually is?
|
On January 08 2011 22:20 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 21:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 21:23 Tazza wrote:On January 08 2011 21:02 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 08 2011 20:43 TrainSamurai wrote:
@Falldownmarigold please explain to me how sc2 is an esport or garners enough attention in the EU/US, from what I see it is just prize hunting and random sponsers here and ther(like when dota first started out in EU/US but that ended up being a joke) . Do please tell to everyone this great success story. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of Americans with hundreds of thousands of followers (many being US citizens) that promote SC2 exclusively. Is that not success? Given what I know about communication and media, that's an amazingly large success. Or, do you simply correlate success and exposure with prize money and number of sanctioned tournaments? I'm not sure what you want when you say "please tell to everyone this story", sorry. I'm not sure how to subjectify the objective fact that there are more viewers and people exposed to SC2 in the US than to BW, going off google/youtube statistics alone. If you want to explore some general trends in the US to gain insights revealing what people are interested in, I suggest you check out this: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#First configure its settings to focus on the US, then make sure you understand Google's method of data normalization (it's quite simple). Try typing in Brood War. Then try typing in Starcraft 2. SC2. Play with it. It's pretty clear that SC2 sees more activity than BW in the US, regardless of the lack of tournament presence. I don't agree with you that success and exposure is contingent upon how much prizes/tournaments are being handed out. That's only a small aspect of success. Well there are millions of people that watch BW(many being Korean). And I think you're going with the statistic of the number of subscribers that Husky and HD have, but they're not very accurate, and they cannot be used as evidence. If you compare that nevake only has like 17,000 subs, while husky and hd have 200,000, doesn't mean shit because a lot of people in korea watch in other ways than youtube. Which brings up another point. I really don't think that SC2 will EVER be shown on TV in the states, or any major country in europe, unless a major cultural change happens, which I doubt will happen soon. If you really think that espn is gonna show sc2, think again. Games in western countries are still thought of as nerdy, while games in Korea is a way to earn respect among everyone, and not just to nerds. My entire point was that SC2 is more casual-friendly. Youtube is not something that can simply be discounted in this discussion because it in fact plays one of the largest roles today in media communications - especially in the US. There are millions of BW viewers - yes - but you are wrong in saying "many" are Koreans. The fact is, the overwhelming majority are Koreans. However, with SC2, we suddenly see breakthroughs in regions (aka US) where watching something like a computer game on a massive scale - purely for entertainment - was unheard of. The fact that HD and Husky have 350,000+ viewers DOES mean shit. It means that you don't have to be a hardcore fan to watch or care. The game is appealing to people that don't care about "accuracy". They care about entertainment. In my opinion, the game does a better job at entertaining the CASUAL VIEWER. I have not been persuaded otherwise by any arguments stating that there are many casual Korean viewers of BW. Youtube may be big internationally, but it is not big in Korea, and so you can't just say that just because HD and Husky have more views=more casual viewers. So you can throw the youtube argument out because it DOESN'T mean SHIT. And you think that all the millions of people watching the BW in Korea are hardcore players? If that's the case, then why aren't there millions of Korean players on iccup? The majority of the people in the stands and on tv are just casual viewers, just like Hyungjoon was. He only became a hardcore player after he tried to go pro. If you don't know what I'm talking about, there is a singer/actor in Korea named Kim Hyungjoon, that made his own show "Kim Hyungjoon becomes a progamer" which he joines a progame team, and tries to become a pro. And not just him and his band, his brother's band also watches gaming, and so do many of the female kpop stars, which explaines why BW players do their dances in ceremonies, and the girls actually notice, and thank them in interviews. Which brings another point, you don't see a lot of girls watching SC2 do you? Well in Korea, many many women watch, which is why girls like Shin-Ae have their own show, why there are a lot of fangirl screaming in the stands, and why interviews like this happened http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181644And don't tell me that all of these people are "hardcore" players. Except for the coaches that is. And not just this, you even see old people sometimes in the stands. When's the last time you ever saw an old person watching any kind of video game, much less actually go through the trouble of going to the stadium, and have to face possible ridicule from other old people? I'd say there are probably just as many male casual viewers of BW in Korea than any where else. But what BW and Korea have done, is create a scene in which everyone in society, and not just "nerds" can enjoy esports. Therefore, there are more casual viewers in Korea
I think the two of you have different definitions of what a casual VIEWER is.
FDM from what i can gather your definition of casual VIEWER is actually not a casual viewer at all but rather a casual gamer. People who are not hardcore per say but will often go and pick up the new cod or in this case the new starcraft.
Tazza's definition of a casual VIEWER (which i share) is for example fangirls or old grandparents whom may not even play the game who go and put bums on seats at live events.
I'm going to to go ahead and make a statement that many proBW fans may also disagree with.
SC2 is not an eSport and will remain an overhyped fad unless it gets true casual viewers.
|
On January 08 2011 22:33 Hatsu wrote:
Does anyone have GomTV's subscription numbers? Do you know how much they are spending, or earning, or what their business plan actually is?
No, and that's why this discussion is stupid.
|
On January 08 2011 22:29 Gingerninja wrote:
You can't discount youtube views if you are discussing casual viewership. The fact is there are NO concrete numbers of anything. Youtube however does give a viewer count, and a subscriber count. So that's a better for source for people watching than anything anywhere else can provide outside of GOM and KESPA. No one has stated how many casual gamers watch this or watch that.. the fact is 350k people are subbed to Husky and HD, and several million people have watched a song about Banelings, a lot probably not even knowing what they were before that. SC2 is growing, maybe not in Korea, but everywhere else. and until someone posts official accurate figures proving or disproving this, then thats the best we have, and we just have to keep playing like we are.
You sure can count tv viewership. During the last proleague finals, the match between KT and SKT was #4 in national tv viewership in Korea. I don't have a link, but it was said by the members of teamliquid writing staff
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182288
If you scroll down, you will see a section that says New Year's Resolutions, and under "iloveoov" it says so
|
On January 08 2011 22:38 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:33 Hatsu wrote:
Does anyone have GomTV's subscription numbers? Do you know how much they are spending, or earning, or what their business plan actually is? No, and that's why this discussion is stupid.
Exactly my point.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
If Starcraft 2 is ever to get big outside of Korea you need investors who are willing to pump loads of money into it, comparable to Samsung. The thing is in Korea it is normal to watch E-sports, everyone does it as pointed out earlier. The social image of nerds watching E-sport in the West still stands, everyone who watches it is a 0 social life nerf with no girlfriend and a huge geek in many people's eyes. Unless this position in society changes, the Western companies will be hardpressed to invest actual money into Starcraft 2. E-sport in Korea is a norm, and is considered an anomaly in the West.
|
On January 08 2011 23:15 Kipsate wrote:
If Starcraft 2 is ever to get big outside of Korea you need investors who are willing to pump loads of money into it, comparable to Samsung. The thing is in Korea it is normal to watch E-sports, everyone does it as pointed out earlier. The social image of nerds watching E-sport in the West still stands, everyone who watches it is a 0 social life nerf with no girlfriend and a huge geek in many people's eyes. Unless this position in society changes, the Western companies will be hardpressed to invest actual money into Starcraft 2. E-sport in Korea is a norm, and is considered an anomaly in the West.
The position in society IS changing, if you look at various media emerging in the United States. The Geek culture is gaining momentum and popularity through movies and television shows. I don't think you can take the youtube subscription count of Husky and HD and say "it doesnt' mean shit", and then say nothing is changing. Although the numbers may not be entirely accurate (I don't see why someone would subscribe 5 times but hey maybe they really like the guys) they still hold value and meaning that culture is changing to be more friendly and look at gamer culture as less of an anomaly.
|
On January 08 2011 22:22 Helios.Star wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 17:10 shadymmj wrote:On January 08 2011 16:49 CreepCrepe wrote:On January 08 2011 16:26 nK)Duke wrote:On January 08 2011 16:15 I Hott Sauce I wrote:
I just don't get some of you guys. SCII is new, what do you expect??? its boring as hell, what do you expect? I don't understand why watching people go through incredibly mechanical macro is 'more exciting'. It's not, it's frustrating, boring and repetitive. because it defines a player's skill. gulfs in macro ability translate onto the battlefield. just watch the skt vs kt winners league - it's just over. + Show Spoiler +bisu's 6 bases meant nothing without real units backing them up you can win very easily through better macro. So people expect pros who have been playing for 11 months at most to have the same skillset as pros who have been playing for about 12-13 years? But the "give it time" argument is still a stupid one apparently. The BW elitism in here really IS getting ridiculous, especially when you're entire argument is "its boring as hell, what do you expect?" but you still can get away with it.
Considering all the best players of WC3 and BW are the top again doesn't that show it's the SAME skillset? But even less required to be good? Do you want me to dig up quotes from numerous top players saying it's simply an easier game? MorroW flat out says he plays 4 hours a day and remains to be one of the best and switches because theres so little skill involved.
Everyone can now macro perfect or almost perfectly. There's no point in which you have to really pick your attention between things so you can easily handle your army, harass (which works less well anyway), and macro all with a small amount of apm. Yet in BW you can see most pro players still fail to macro, or more likely lose attention of their units for too long very often. The fact it's so hard is why it's a good competitive game with a massive gulf between the pro and the top amateurs.
If you think it's going to change in time with SC2 then you are just being ignorant to the game mechanics and how its changed.
|
On January 08 2011 20:06 Kororo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 18:53 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The funny thing is, to casual spectators of the game, SC2 is far more appealing than BW. It's got better graphics for starters. Additionally it's got more complex possibilities due to the lessening of the prior emphasis on perfect mechanics in BW.
The game is more suited to people that aren't as in-tuned with it to begin with. I think esports is ever to really takeoff, it needs to appeal to a wide variety of interest levels and not solely people that really really understand the mechanics of the game.
People have pointed things out like "Seeing Flash at 400 APM on 7 rax is far better than seeing a scrub in SC2 on 7 rax (because of how much harder I know it is for the former)". Well, did it occur to you that the casual viewer probably doesn't care how difficult it was for those 7 raxes to be managed? No. The more casual viewer is more interested in the action.
And finally to strengthen the point above, I agree that free TV coverage is necessary for something to gain ample attention on a very large scale. The more people see it free, the bigger the pool of casual viewers grows, and so on. That is where SC2 takes the cake. It's much more appealing to the more casual viewer that doesn't understand mechanics and so on. In korea numbers would prove otherwise. Using the "it has better graphics; thus, it's more appealing" isn't a genuine argument. SC2 is failing in Korea for a reason, keep that in mind. I've seen parents take their children to watch Broodwar games. Not to mention many folks who probably don't understand the full mechanics of BW go to big events. Heck, I saw elderly people in the crowd on numerous occasions. Are these people not casual? I'm pretty sure they went there to be entertained. All I see in SC2 are blobs attacking each other. Yeah that's really entertaining stuff, it's so full of action! I stood up one night to watch the GSL2 Finals and not once did I find myself being awed by the player's skill. I know little about SC2, so I guess that would make me a casual spectator watching SC2, knowing nothing of its mechanics. I wasn't entertained. More people watch BW in Korea because it's ENTERTAINING.
*edit* sorry, that looks a lot longer than it felt like while typing 
In my inexpert opinion, you see blobs because you don't want to see a game that is currently at odds with BW, which deserves the devotion and attention that it has received for so many years. if you're going to call sc2 units "blobs" that are completely devoid of any possible aesthetic appeal, you need to at least admit that you're insanely biased. both sides seem to feel threatened by the other installment's existence and they have the right to that feeling, as well as their bias. but saying that watching 6 collosi roast zerglings while corruptors are slithering through the air at them, and infestors are attempting to place well-positioned neural parasites down, but get foiled by some forcefields...at which point 12 new zealot reinforcements charge into the fray as the zerg rolls 65 banelings into it all, resulting in a massive green and blue explosion, is both boring and not visually inspiring is like putting on lead glasses and then complaining about the lack of sunlight. There are all kinds of awesome visual scenarios in BW, but face it...with every year it looks more and more dated. with sc2 out now, no new american or european kids are gunna go shoppin for games and then opt for BW over it. with the potential of the map editor, maps are going to look fucking fantastic eventually. i've seen some truly beautiful arrangements already and its only a matter of time until stuff like this becomes fully utilized.
people in korea are still going to BW matches because it's been their bloody national passtime for 12 years, and change is a gradual process. so many people don't attempt to really put it into focus when comparing the two experiences. also, you state that the previous poster is wrong because KOREANS love to watch reavers blow up zerglings, but you seem to forget that the other millions of players and spectators genuinely appreciate a collosus omglazerbeaming stuff, with guardian shield and...well a ton of other beautiful effects and units. we DO appreciate 12 years advancement in CGI.
try to remember that BW is a 12 year old game that has built itself up from nothing over years. SC2 is the future; if korea alone sticks with BW then they're obviously welcome to and they aren't necessarily losing out on anything, since it's simply a matter of subjective taste. don't try to make SC2 seem as if it's a grey-to-brown shaded screen with 5 pixels bumping into eachother.
try to be honest with yourself and admit that BW is not 100% better than SC2, in every single possible theoretical, applicable and relativistic way.
|
On January 08 2011 23:47 WarSong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 20:06 Kororo wrote:On January 08 2011 18:53 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The funny thing is, to casual spectators of the game, SC2 is far more appealing than BW. It's got better graphics for starters. Additionally it's got more complex possibilities due to the lessening of the prior emphasis on perfect mechanics in BW.
The game is more suited to people that aren't as in-tuned with it to begin with. I think esports is ever to really takeoff, it needs to appeal to a wide variety of interest levels and not solely people that really really understand the mechanics of the game.
People have pointed things out like "Seeing Flash at 400 APM on 7 rax is far better than seeing a scrub in SC2 on 7 rax (because of how much harder I know it is for the former)". Well, did it occur to you that the casual viewer probably doesn't care how difficult it was for those 7 raxes to be managed? No. The more casual viewer is more interested in the action.
And finally to strengthen the point above, I agree that free TV coverage is necessary for something to gain ample attention on a very large scale. The more people see it free, the bigger the pool of casual viewers grows, and so on. That is where SC2 takes the cake. It's much more appealing to the more casual viewer that doesn't understand mechanics and so on. In korea numbers would prove otherwise. Using the "it has better graphics; thus, it's more appealing" isn't a genuine argument. SC2 is failing in Korea for a reason, keep that in mind. I've seen parents take their children to watch Broodwar games. Not to mention many folks who probably don't understand the full mechanics of BW go to big events. Heck, I saw elderly people in the crowd on numerous occasions. Are these people not casual? I'm pretty sure they went there to be entertained. All I see in SC2 are blobs attacking each other. Yeah that's really entertaining stuff, it's so full of action! I stood up one night to watch the GSL2 Finals and not once did I find myself being awed by the player's skill. I know little about SC2, so I guess that would make me a casual spectator watching SC2, knowing nothing of its mechanics. I wasn't entertained. More people watch BW in Korea because it's ENTERTAINING. In my inexpert opinion, you see blobs because you don't want to see a game that is currently at odds with BW, which deserves the devotion and attention that it has received for so many years. if you're going to call sc2 units "blobs" that are completely devoid of any possible aesthetic appeal, you need to at least admit that you're insanely biased. both sides seem to feel threatened by the other installment's existence, and they have the right to that feeling as well as a bias. Saying that watching 6 collosi roast zerglings while corruptors are slithering through the air at them, and infestors are attempting to place well-positioned neural parasites down, but get foiled by some forcefields...at which point 12 new zealot reinforcements charge into the fray as the zerg rolls 65 banelings into it all, resulting in a massive green and blue explosion, is both boring and visually inspiring is like putting on lead glasses and then complaining about the lack of sunlight. There are all kinds of awesome visual scenarios in BW, but face it...with every year it looks more and more dated. with sc2 out now, no new american or european kids are gunna go shoppin for games and then opt for BW over it. with the potential of the map editor, maps are going to look fucking fantastic eventually. i've seen some truly beautiful arrangements already and its only a matter of time until stuff like this becomes fully utilized. try to remember that BW is a 12 year old game that has built itself up from nothing over years. SC2 is the future; if korea alone sticks with BW then they're obviously welcome to and they aren't necessarily losing out on anything, since it's simply a matter of subjective taste. don't try to make SC2 seem as if it's a grey-to-brown shaded screen with 5 pixels bumping into eachother. try to be honest with yourself and admit that BW is not 100% better than SC2, in every single possible theoretical, applicable and relativistic way.
Guess what? People still play chess even though it doesn't have hd, superdedooper awsome graphics. You know why that is? It is because if you want to look at something pretty you go to an art gallery. People play and watch games for the excitement and the strategy. That will always be there in broodwar and people know that and thats why people play and watch the game.
|
On January 08 2011 23:26 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:22 Helios.Star wrote:On January 08 2011 17:10 shadymmj wrote:On January 08 2011 16:49 CreepCrepe wrote:On January 08 2011 16:26 nK)Duke wrote:On January 08 2011 16:15 I Hott Sauce I wrote:
I just don't get some of you guys. SCII is new, what do you expect??? its boring as hell, what do you expect? I don't understand why watching people go through incredibly mechanical macro is 'more exciting'. It's not, it's frustrating, boring and repetitive. because it defines a player's skill. gulfs in macro ability translate onto the battlefield. just watch the skt vs kt winners league - it's just over. + Show Spoiler +bisu's 6 bases meant nothing without real units backing them up you can win very easily through better macro. So people expect pros who have been playing for 11 months at most to have the same skillset as pros who have been playing for about 12-13 years? But the "give it time" argument is still a stupid one apparently. The BW elitism in here really IS getting ridiculous, especially when you're entire argument is "its boring as hell, what do you expect?" but you still can get away with it. Considering all the best players of WC3 and BW are the top again doesn't that show it's the SAME skillset? But even less required to be good? Do you want me to dig up quotes from numerous top players saying it's simply an easier game? MorroW flat out says he plays 4 hours a day and remains to be one of the best and switches because theres so little skill involved. Everyone can now macro perfect or almost perfectly. There's no point in which you have to really pick your attention between things so you can easily handle your army, harass (which works less well anyway), and macro all with a small amount of apm. Yet in BW you can see most pro players still fail to macro, or more likely lose attention of their units for too long very often. The fact it's so hard is why it's a good competitive game with a massive gulf between the pro and the top amateurs. If you think it's going to change in time with SC2 then you are just being ignorant to the game mechanics and how its changed.
SC2 does indeed have easier macro mechanics, but this doesn't make the game as a whole easier I think. It obviously makes macro easier, which means that you have to spend less time on macroing, so you can use that time to micro. In a few years, when pros will (probably) be 10 times as good as they are now, we might see some really epic games due to the fact that macro is so easy, because they will hopefully be able to micro and multitask like shit.
|
On January 08 2011 23:50 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 23:47 WarSong wrote:On January 08 2011 20:06 Kororo wrote:On January 08 2011 18:53 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The funny thing is, to casual spectators of the game, SC2 is far more appealing than BW. It's got better graphics for starters. Additionally it's got more complex possibilities due to the lessening of the prior emphasis on perfect mechanics in BW.
The game is more suited to people that aren't as in-tuned with it to begin with. I think esports is ever to really takeoff, it needs to appeal to a wide variety of interest levels and not solely people that really really understand the mechanics of the game.
People have pointed things out like "Seeing Flash at 400 APM on 7 rax is far better than seeing a scrub in SC2 on 7 rax (because of how much harder I know it is for the former)". Well, did it occur to you that the casual viewer probably doesn't care how difficult it was for those 7 raxes to be managed? No. The more casual viewer is more interested in the action.
And finally to strengthen the point above, I agree that free TV coverage is necessary for something to gain ample attention on a very large scale. The more people see it free, the bigger the pool of casual viewers grows, and so on. That is where SC2 takes the cake. It's much more appealing to the more casual viewer that doesn't understand mechanics and so on. In korea numbers would prove otherwise. Using the "it has better graphics; thus, it's more appealing" isn't a genuine argument. SC2 is failing in Korea for a reason, keep that in mind. I've seen parents take their children to watch Broodwar games. Not to mention many folks who probably don't understand the full mechanics of BW go to big events. Heck, I saw elderly people in the crowd on numerous occasions. Are these people not casual? I'm pretty sure they went there to be entertained. All I see in SC2 are blobs attacking each other. Yeah that's really entertaining stuff, it's so full of action! I stood up one night to watch the GSL2 Finals and not once did I find myself being awed by the player's skill. I know little about SC2, so I guess that would make me a casual spectator watching SC2, knowing nothing of its mechanics. I wasn't entertained. More people watch BW in Korea because it's ENTERTAINING. In my inexpert opinion, you see blobs because you don't want to see a game that is currently at odds with BW, which deserves the devotion and attention that it has received for so many years. if you're going to call sc2 units "blobs" that are completely devoid of any possible aesthetic appeal, you need to at least admit that you're insanely biased. both sides seem to feel threatened by the other installment's existence, and they have the right to that feeling as well as a bias. Saying that watching 6 collosi roast zerglings while corruptors are slithering through the air at them, and infestors are attempting to place well-positioned neural parasites down, but get foiled by some forcefields...at which point 12 new zealot reinforcements charge into the fray as the zerg rolls 65 banelings into it all, resulting in a massive green and blue explosion, is both boring and visually inspiring is like putting on lead glasses and then complaining about the lack of sunlight. There are all kinds of awesome visual scenarios in BW, but face it...with every year it looks more and more dated. with sc2 out now, no new american or european kids are gunna go shoppin for games and then opt for BW over it. with the potential of the map editor, maps are going to look fucking fantastic eventually. i've seen some truly beautiful arrangements already and its only a matter of time until stuff like this becomes fully utilized. try to remember that BW is a 12 year old game that has built itself up from nothing over years. SC2 is the future; if korea alone sticks with BW then they're obviously welcome to and they aren't necessarily losing out on anything, since it's simply a matter of subjective taste. don't try to make SC2 seem as if it's a grey-to-brown shaded screen with 5 pixels bumping into eachother. try to be honest with yourself and admit that BW is not 100% better than SC2, in every single possible theoretical, applicable and relativistic way. Guess what? People still play chess even though it doesn't have hd, superdedooper awsome graphics. You know why that is? It is because if you want to look at something pretty you go to an art gallery. People play and watch games for the excitement and the strategy. That will always be there in broodwar and people know that and thats why people play and watch the game.
i agree that visuals are not a prerequisite for a good game, but your example doesn't work since increasing the visual presentation of chess doesn't effect a single attribute of play. the pieces look better but if people wanna play or watch chess, the quality of the set has zero bearing on their desire. second, unless you're utterly and defensively tied to a game, for a very large amount of reasons such as nostalgia and familiarity, you have an EXTREMELY high chance of finding pleasure in the beautiful new graphics. the term is used all the time, and beauty doesn't imply blandness.
the point is: how often does someone play a game and then SEVERAL years later a sequel comes out and the viewer is not only even apathetic about the increased visual quality, but actively seeks to criticize and belittle the game. you have an extremely biased view, and not everyone is able to admit stuff like that to themselves, but your opinions are just that. opinions.
SC2 blows BW out of the water, visually.
p.s. how many people play chess, in 2011, compared to WoW or CoD (or SC2)? chess is an excellent game, that requires a very high intelligence to master, but new games continually come out which are just plain more fun, exciting, engaging etc. sure, play the odd game of chess every year or two because that's just nostalgia for yah, but you aren't gunna play chess all day when BW is at your fingertips.
|
On January 08 2011 23:58 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 23:26 infinity2k9 wrote:On January 08 2011 22:22 Helios.Star wrote:On January 08 2011 17:10 shadymmj wrote:On January 08 2011 16:49 CreepCrepe wrote:On January 08 2011 16:26 nK)Duke wrote:On January 08 2011 16:15 I Hott Sauce I wrote:
I just don't get some of you guys. SCII is new, what do you expect??? its boring as hell, what do you expect? I don't understand why watching people go through incredibly mechanical macro is 'more exciting'. It's not, it's frustrating, boring and repetitive. because it defines a player's skill. gulfs in macro ability translate onto the battlefield. just watch the skt vs kt winners league - it's just over. + Show Spoiler +bisu's 6 bases meant nothing without real units backing them up you can win very easily through better macro. So people expect pros who have been playing for 11 months at most to have the same skillset as pros who have been playing for about 12-13 years? But the "give it time" argument is still a stupid one apparently. The BW elitism in here really IS getting ridiculous, especially when you're entire argument is "its boring as hell, what do you expect?" but you still can get away with it. Considering all the best players of WC3 and BW are the top again doesn't that show it's the SAME skillset? But even less required to be good? Do you want me to dig up quotes from numerous top players saying it's simply an easier game? MorroW flat out says he plays 4 hours a day and remains to be one of the best and switches because theres so little skill involved. Everyone can now macro perfect or almost perfectly. There's no point in which you have to really pick your attention between things so you can easily handle your army, harass (which works less well anyway), and macro all with a small amount of apm. Yet in BW you can see most pro players still fail to macro, or more likely lose attention of their units for too long very often. The fact it's so hard is why it's a good competitive game with a massive gulf between the pro and the top amateurs. If you think it's going to change in time with SC2 then you are just being ignorant to the game mechanics and how its changed. SC2 does indeed have easier macro mechanics, but this doesn't make the game as a whole easier I think. It obviously makes macro easier, which means that you have to spend less time on macroing, so you can use that time to micro. In a few years, when pros will (probably) be 10 times as good as they are now, we might see some really epic games due to the fact that macro is so easy, because they will hopefully be able to micro and multitask like shit.
What is there actually skillwise to be 10 times better at? Spellcasting is easier, no 12 unit limit, micro is easier because theres no patrol tricks. So what are you exactly imagining a game in 10 years to be different, in what way? In my opinion people are just going to refine the best macro builds then small eco disadvantage or a bad decision decides the game. It doesn't make the compelling viewing to be honest. It's not like say, a BW PvP where even with a unit disadvantage you can turn the tide of the battle with good storms and reaver control because theres no skill in using storm or any of the units.
As for the post about blobs actually looking good, sorry but they don't at all they just make it harder to see what the fuck is going on. I don't find all the particle effects beautiful they just make it difficult to tell whats happening for a spectator, whereas BW is mostly clear except in a few situations such as mass swarms and storms and when carriers cover the whole screen with interceptors.
Even if you're trying to say SC2 should surpass BW just because it has better graphics, then what does that say for the lifespan of SC2? Graphically it's going to age and are you going to trot out the same arguments then? Or will you not even be around then, moved onto some other game. Thats what annoys me a lot about a lot of the people arguing cause i'm willing to bet they will be nowhere to be seen in a few years anyway.
Edit: i have to quote this cause it's such a bad quote its unbelievable
Saying that watching 6 collosi roast zerglings while corruptors are slithering through the air at them, and infestors are attempting to place well-positioned neural parasites down, but get foiled by some forcefields...at which point 12 new zealot reinforcements charge into the fray as the zerg rolls 65 banelings into it all, resulting in a massive green and blue explosion, is both boring and visually inspiring is like putting on lead glasses and then complaining about the lack of sunlight.
Seriously? We're talking about eSports who is paying attention to this considering the speed of the game? And your attempt to try and make the example exciting with that kind of writing just makes me laugh. What has this even got to do with the topic. I don't see teenage korean girls packed in the stadiums to watch massive green and blue explosions. Even if the visuals were impressive (which they are not particularly) how often is it going to make you think 'wow' when it happens every game. The actual visuals basically become symbols to the spectator as to what is happening, and those symbols need to be as clear as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
