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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1?Yes (37) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 37 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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On April 17 2024 07:57 ruhtraeel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote:
There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... I will say, I was expecting Snow to get rolled pretty hard today, but he played insanely well the first two games and far exceeded my expectations. He's managed to finally figure out ways to use his crazy Reaver micro in PvZ, similar to his other matchups. He's come a long way since dropping out of ASL from Ggaemo That being said, yes, his ZvP in ASL is the weakest out of all the top 6 Protosses (Bisu, Mini, Best, Shuttle, Rain). It seems like every championship level Protoss has one matchup that isn't quite at the level of their other ones, with Bisu and Mini probably being the most complete, but Bisu's PvT being a tad shaky at times and Mini recently trading his PvZ performance for better PvT performance
Snow has stronger ZvP than any of the names you mentioned(at least in online play).
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geez the zergs this tourney really mowed down their competition... wonder what this means for asl18 map pool LOL
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As amazing as Korean pro players are it's incredible that they can't figure out the dark archon is good. Playing against defilers without using feedback late game PvZ against plague is like playing against defilers without using irradiate against swarm in TvZ.... And don't even get me started on maelstrom lol.. My theory is that they're generally shy and afraid that if they try a bold new strategy and it doesn't work they'll be ridiculed..
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Pros try new things all the time on ladder and on stream. But when they're in an offline BoX tournament with millions of Korean won on the line, they will go with what's tried and tested with their practice partners.
You really wanted Snow to try DAs in game 3? In order for Feedback/Maelstrom to be considered, it must be more viable than Psi Storm. Psi Storm is just the more versatile all-purpose spell, and HTs cost 50/150 compared to the DA at 250/200. HTs can also become Archons once their energy is spent, which Snow did often, while the DA just sits there looking cute for a few minutes. That's enough time for the position to potentially collapse.
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On April 17 2024 09:15 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2024 07:57 ruhtraeel wrote:On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote:
There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... I will say, I was expecting Snow to get rolled pretty hard today, but he played insanely well the first two games and far exceeded my expectations. He's managed to finally figure out ways to use his crazy Reaver micro in PvZ, similar to his other matchups. He's come a long way since dropping out of ASL from Ggaemo That being said, yes, his ZvP in ASL is the weakest out of all the top 6 Protosses (Bisu, Mini, Best, Shuttle, Rain). It seems like every championship level Protoss has one matchup that isn't quite at the level of their other ones, with Bisu and Mini probably being the most complete, but Bisu's PvT being a tad shaky at times and Mini recently trading his PvZ performance for better PvT performance Snow has stronger ZvP than any of the names you mentioned(at least in online play).
Unfortunately, when it matters most, he just doesn't deliver. My expectations of him every ASL is similar to Best (my favourite player) where I know on paper he should beat people like Sharp and Mind, but I will always expect them to be knocked out earlier, and would be pleasantly surprised if they made it further than ro8/ro4.
It's sort of funny that most people claim Best's PvT is his best matchup, when he's choked more PvTs than PvZs. PvZ is secretly his best matchup in ASL, so I almost expect Best to choke in PvTs now and do better in PvZs, and I'll always expect Snow to choke in PvZ
On April 17 2024 10:44 inflection wrote:
As amazing as Korean pro players are it's incredible that they can't figure out the dark archon is good. Playing against defilers without using feedback late game PvZ against plague is like playing against defilers without using irradiate against swarm in TvZ.... And don't even get me started on maelstrom lol.. My theory is that they're generally shy and afraid that if they try a bold new strategy and it doesn't work they'll be ridiculed..
Best has used them enough to make others use them occasionally now in tournaments (I can't remember if it was Mini or Bisu who also used them this season)
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Bisutopia19395 Posts
Awesome serious. Snow micro was amazing, but SK is just totally dominant. Fortunately, ZVZ is bad for SK so hero has a real shot!
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On April 17 2024 01:41 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 23:38 Shinokuki wrote:On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote:
There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... Oh lord, the whining from 1500 ~ 1700 mmr protoss begins! Deducing that zvp is imba just from ASL games and not on 1000+ games online. There's a reason why JD whined because online proleagues are major source of income and you can't ALL IN all the time in zvp when you're playing 1000+ games rather than 10~20 games. Notice how 8/10 were all ins. Zerg has to all in to beat protoss. If it goes standard protoss wins. SK held it through with his superior mentality and better gambling strategy. It is easy to have a better gambling strategy when you are the one watching the map every time while keeping your opponent guessing. I agree with you: games on proleague are a different class because you can't really gamble when you are throwing your whole team's chances in 1 game. Box series will always favor zerg precisely because they have a way better gambling pattern with better chances.
Totally agree with this. In longer BoX series, zerg has advantage because they have way more early game gambles to take. Not that it would be a total fix but I wish ASL would go back to Bo5s only for Ro4 and final. Just seems like Bo7 is a bit too many chances for cheesey zerg gambles.
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people talking about that snow style doesnt work pvz dont understand that, THERES NO STYLE THAT WORKS CONSISTENTLY PVZ.
fuck off, accept the fact that all of you is 400+ mmr higher that if u played t or p.
2200 z = 1800 toss.
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On April 17 2024 10:44 inflection wrote:
As amazing as Korean pro players are it's incredible that they can't figure out the dark archon is good. Playing against defilers without using feedback late game PvZ against plague is like playing against defilers without using irradiate against swarm in TvZ.... And don't even get me started on maelstrom lol.. My theory is that they're generally shy and afraid that if they try a bold new strategy and it doesn't work they'll be ridiculed..
i agree with da being underused late game, but that doesnt. change the fact that till p can stablish 3 gas, he is really close to die or getting so behind that is 80/20 by the time z is getting defiler...
against most z builds p is really storm dependant, he cant survive mid game battles with shitty storm positioning, that makes protoss army very inefective money wise vs z comp, protoss is using most of his gas in two units that, if microed badly, become negative ROI, (ob/ht). so its very easy for good zerg players to make protoss waste tons of gas, delaying upgrades or tech switch.
z gas is very effective all game long, only time he wastes gas is with bad muta switch or careless scourge control...
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All I can say is if you think maelstrom and feedback aren't good, you're brainwashed. I've been there and done that. I used to drink the kool aid too. I don't want to get into some forum theorycraft war though. Mutas snipe all HTs then hydras run over P army midgame. Plague wrecks expensive P army late game. You know as well as I do you've seen it happen over and over.
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It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss.
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On April 17 2024 03:45 Soft_General_5023 wrote:in game 3 snow managed to get 4 reavers in island expansion only to be out of minerals to build scarabs for a few seconds and all reavers died https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/122116079?change_second=6129snow was convinced he got it he even shuttled probes in Fenix psi blade moment.
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On April 17 2024 13:24 foxmeep wrote:
It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss.
There are only 3 other notable PvZ games this season which don't have Hero and Soulkey involved. Action losing to Snow and Best, and JD losing to Shuttle.
ZvP being Zerg favored was concluded 20 years ago. And how about other ASLs.
Your logic is funny.
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On April 17 2024 14:35 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2024 13:24 foxmeep wrote:
It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss. There are only 3 other notable PvZ games this season which don't have Hero and Soulkey involved. Action losing to Snow and Best, and JD losing to Shuttle. ZvP being Zerg favored was concluded 20 years ago. And how about other ASLs. Your logic is funny.
Like I've been saying.. ASL ZvP is imba due to the nature of the match up and the stakes involved. Online is a different matter and you know this TMNT.
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They're more favored in a BoX series in tournaments but Zerg is still holding a positive record against Protoss online and has been for years.
Historically Bisu has always been the only one who has good record vs Zerg (online) and Snow has only risen to his level since last year so that's more about himself, not the matchup. Mind that they both have negative records vs Soma.
I think you're beating the "ZvP doesn't favor Zerg" drum too much recently but essentially it comes down to the fact that Zerg has lost Soma to the military. I'm sure Terran and Protoss would look like shit if Snow and Light stopped playing.
Here's a stats some may find surprised to see: who is 38% vs Soulkey and 29% vs Soma since July 2023? You'd think it must be someone like Shuttle or Stork. No, it's Mini.
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On April 17 2024 15:27 TMNT wrote:
They're more favored in a BoX series in tournaments but Zerg is still holding a positive record against Protoss online and has been for years.
Historically Bisu has always been the only one who has good record vs Zerg (online) and Snow has only risen to his level since last year so that's more about himself, not the matchup. Mind that they both have negative records vs Soma.
I think you're beating the "ZvP doesn't favor Zerg" drum too much recently but essentially it comes down to the fact that Zerg has lost Soma to the military. I'm sure Terran and Protoss would look like shit if Snow and Light stopped playing.
No one in their right mind is saying it isn't (very slightly) favoured, but people make it out to be like 60/40 when the reality is it is closer to 51-52/48-49.
SK was simply the better player on the day. Snow wasn't "forced" into anything due to his race.
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the problem is not %, is the fact that zvp gameplay feels toxic as fuck if ure toss...
imagine pvt 4 gate goon all in working 52% of the time vs terran and if it doesnt work, you can still manage to get into decent midgame position or the same situation with darktemplar rush... is not a skill issue, is that z>p, period. any toss with 50%++ win rate pvz is a super hero at pro level.
atm i can think of bisu and snow with 50%+ winrate vs z, but are the other protoss pros just bad? or it just happens that all zerg pros are some super genius zvp players for like 20+ years?
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On April 17 2024 13:24 foxmeep wrote:
It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss.
I think some matchups in BW are a bit imba. Not by much but generally I think the T>Z>P still holds weight to this day.
But as Bisu said a long time ago, skill matters most. Snow didn't lose this game because of his race. SK was just better.
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Oh-oh, Snow lost all of his shuttles and subsequently four of his reavers.
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The fact that Snow was eliminated by SK isn't surprising. SK is a beast of a player with an incredible mindset, and yesterday he made the comeback of his career. After game two his theoretical odds were somewhere in the 20% region, yet he didn't collapse under the pressure. That's the most noteworthy thing about the match. Not PvZ imbalances, not Snow's failure to advance. SK should be the talk of the day.
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EPT
